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Posts

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    I still find it strange that the Butcher and salughter tanks in seconds and Raynor can obliterate an entire team with AA but Nova being able to pick off a hero is seen as too much.

    Of course, I might be biased.

  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Well, he puts himself in harms way to do that. He can't pick out a mage deep in the enemy team and just blow them up without paying for it.

    Also you can see butcher coming and react to him. With nova it's just like "welp, I guess I don't get to play."

    TheStig on
    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
    shryke
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    TheStig wrote: »
    Well, he puts himself in harms way to do that. He can't pick out a mage deep in the enemy team and just blow them up without paying for it.

    Nova is pretty easy to punish. Its not like she has any HP, shes got all the heartiness of a wet pinata. The list of heroes that can drive her into the dirt is longer than it is short.

    From someone who has played a LOT of Nova, I can tell you theres 3 heroes who run over her with reckless abandon: Sonya, ETC, and Zeratul. Especially if Zers objective is direct counter.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    The coolest crap ever, as a Nova player, was when I was against a team with a really good Jaina. I picked TT, she picked ice block, and every time I did TT she would ice block it no matter who got targeted.

    TheStigEcho
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    TheStig wrote: »
    Well I don't claim to be the best Raynor, but I just played two games against novas who got max stacks of GP and could instantly delete me late game.

    Thats kinda her thing.

    Remove the ability to instagib a hero and you might as well just drop her from the game.

    Her most successful role is anti-DPS DPS.

    That's the whole problem.

    Insta-gib is terrible, terrible design. Especially when it only comes from the ultimate Win-More talent.

    Well, get rid of half the roster then?

    No?

    Who else would this apply to?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    TheStig wrote: »
    nah, they can tone down or change GP completely without ruining nova. I believe they already said they're reworking it.

    She should punish people for extending too far, being out of position, or running around low health. She shouldn't punish heroes for simply existing.

    And especially she shouldn't do so only when you are already behind and unable to deal with Nova already.

    Like, there's a reason the bitching about Nova went from not much to tons the minute they reworked GP into it's current ridiculous form. It's what turned Nova from a high burst character with major downsides into someone who, if your team was already doing well, could simply begin instantly deleting the enemy with no way to counter it beyond hoping your teammates, now fighting 4v5, can maybe dive her hard enough to kill her without all dying themselves.

    shryke on
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    TheStig wrote: »
    Well I don't claim to be the best Raynor, but I just played two games against novas who got max stacks of GP and could instantly delete me late game.

    Thats kinda her thing.

    Remove the ability to instagib a hero and you might as well just drop her from the game.

    Her most successful role is anti-DPS DPS.

    That's the whole problem.

    Insta-gib is terrible, terrible design. Especially when it only comes from the ultimate Win-More talent.

    Well, get rid of half the roster then?

    No?

    Who else would this apply to?

    Butcher, Stitches, KT, Sonya, Jaina, Raynor, Tychus, Zeratul, or anyone who can nuke?

  • SupagoatSupagoat Registered User regular
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    TheStigshrykeMMMigfortyDibbykedinikGachnarElbasunuInquisitor77FryEcho
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    TheStig wrote: »
    Well I don't claim to be the best Raynor, but I just played two games against novas who got max stacks of GP and could instantly delete me late game.

    Thats kinda her thing.

    Remove the ability to instagib a hero and you might as well just drop her from the game.

    Her most successful role is anti-DPS DPS.

    That's the whole problem.

    Insta-gib is terrible, terrible design. Especially when it only comes from the ultimate Win-More talent.

    Well, get rid of half the roster then?

    No?

    Who else would this apply to?

    Butcher, Stitches, KT, Sonya, Jaina, Raynor, Tychus, Zeratul, or anyone who can nuke?

    No, none of those characters can instagib anyone from out of nowhere. They are just high damage characters.

    Zeratul is the closest analogue and he's much better balanced because he's melee and lower burst. And doesn't interact as ridiculously with GP.

    shryke on
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    TheStig wrote: »
    Well I don't claim to be the best Raynor, but I just played two games against novas who got max stacks of GP and could instantly delete me late game.

    Thats kinda her thing.

    Remove the ability to instagib a hero and you might as well just drop her from the game.

    Her most successful role is anti-DPS DPS.

    That's the whole problem.

    Insta-gib is terrible, terrible design. Especially when it only comes from the ultimate Win-More talent.

    Well, get rid of half the roster then?

    No?

    Who else would this apply to?

    Butcher, Stitches, KT, Sonya, Jaina, Raynor, Tychus, Zeratul, or anyone who can nuke?

    No, none of those characters can instagib anyone from out of nowhere. They are just high damage characters.

    Zeratul is the closest analogue and he's much better balanced because he's melee and lower burst. And doesn't interact as ridiculously with GP.

    The difference between Zeratul and Nova is Nova can only instagib squishies. Zeratul can damn near instagib everyone.

    jungleroomx on
    Brainleech
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    And the Butcher can indeed instagib someone out of nowhere. Fresh meat + chains = done. Especially squishy heroes like Raynor or Jaina.

  • OrphaneOrphane rivers of red that run to seaRegistered User regular
    i think you might as well admit you have a difference in opinion and don't want nova to be nerfed instead of continuing this argument that is going nowhere

    "out of nowhere" literally means "from stealth", not "just has high damage" - there is a reason stealth is an immensely powerful tool because it adds a massive element of surprise, and don't say that in a moba everyone constantly can take the time to have eyes peeled for the stealth blur

    also the ttk for zeratul to kill people is definitely lower than nova

    shryke
  • I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    buff eve

    liEt3nH.png
    So It GoesUrQuanLord88PMAvers
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Yes, I would not like Nova nerfed because shes finally viable and able to hang with the big boys.

    I dont see what people are describing as any different than any number of characters, especially ones with seasoned marksman.

  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Yes, I would not like Nova nerfed because shes finally viable and able to hang with the big boys.

    I dont see what people are describing as any different than any number of characters, especially ones with seasoned marksman.

    "If you don't strain your eyes looking for a faint blur you instantly die with no time to react" is NOT something the assassins you list are capable of putting on the other team. It's not fun to play against.

    We're not arguing against Burst (and no, Raynor cannot burst people despite what you say, his TTK is still like 5 seconds minimum without a stim drone--he used to be able to burst in the days of Q resetting his autoattack with searing attacks, but they removed that build), we're arguing against Burst from Stealth. It's the Stealth part that pisses people off and isn't fun to play against. And this has historically been an issue in all MOBAs that feature stealth champs, this isn't new to HotS.

    Yes, I would be happier if Nova was completely removed from the game. Because a Raynor on the other team may kill me fast, but I can see him. I don't have to spend triple the amount of mental effort to play the game just because he's on the other team.

    Edit: Also to clarify on the removing thing, it would make pub comps on average better since Nova is one of the classic "shitty not-a-body characters who is a massive detriment to your team if they're not very good at the hero", and Stealth heroes are inherently INCREDIBLY hard to balance (again, proven in other MOBAs, has held true in HotS so far), which would make things a lot easier on the HotS team for balancing. They're not going to do it, but a man can dream.

    The Escape Goat on
    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Tell ya what guys. Ill bring my Nova A game in some team fights and you get to be on the giving end of it, then we can have sodas.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    There's a lot of things in this game that aren't much fun to play against. I'm killed most often by stunlocking, but I'm not in here trying to get rid of it.

    jungleroomx on
    Supagoat
  • PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    Random thought: What if Nova's stealth was a toggle, and while it was on it drained mana?

    persona4celestia.jpg
    COME FORTH, AMATERASU! - Switch Friend Code SW-5465-2458-5696 - Twitch
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    You aren't even arguing the point anymore. In that clip, it takes Nova less than a second to kill someone from full health. And it's slowed down. And she's not using an ult. And she does it by herself. And there is no warning to the player until their health bar starts going down. And she's at full health and out of danger when she's done.

    Stunlocking isn't even a thing. No solo hero can stunlock you enough to kill you from full health by yourself without taking serious damage in return. A Diablo rotation might take you down from ~70% health, but not full, not even on the squishiest of squishies, and he will be facetanking damage from you in that span because the stuns only last ~2 seconds total. Which brings up the point that it takes longer than 3 seconds to actually pull it off. Butcher faces similar limitations. It requires at least 3 seconds to pull off (unless you pop an ult), there's a visual and audio warning, he has to put himself in physical danger, and any hero with an escape can actually get out of it after the strike. Most of the time Butcher has to physically follow you for at least another second or two to finish the job, and he will be taking hits in the process. Cho'gall is two freaking heroes in one body and he can't put out that kind of damage in such a short period of time, even when using an ult. It's ridiculous.

    Let me be clear - I have no problems with "high risk high reward" play. I also have no problem with burst damage from stealth. But right now, there is pretty much no risk and all reward to any half-competent Nova player. If she is going to put out this much damage, then she needs significantly less health or some other kind of limitation, because if you can delete someone in less than a second just by using basic abilities, that should apply to you, too.

    The Escape GoatshrykeEtiowsaMMMigkime
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    Eyyyy, GGs to the PA folk I grouped with tonight, albeit for only a few games. That BoE one was a nice one to end on. Full team wipe, straight to Core.

    Although my favorite was one with @Lucascraft before the full PA group.
    CWPaS1KWoAAF7Pa.jpg:large
    Towers of ResidentSleeper Doom! Kael'thas wrecking house. Started off a bit rocky, they had Rexxar/Abathur/Murky and who even cares who else, they were pushing like maniacs, especially Murky. But then we started to edge them out cause we were winning teamfights at the Altars. Eventually, their Core only has 3 health left. One Altar will win us the game! But my team's all dead! I run over to the Altar and hide in a bush, all four enemy heroes are channeling. Oh thanks for stacking, have a Chain Bomb! Aaaand have another Chain Bomb! You get a Chain Bomb, YOU get a Chain Bomb!

    It was pretty great and ultimately won us the game. My teammates sure liked it:
    UCfkUF8.png

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
    KryhsSupagoat
  • SupagoatSupagoat Registered User regular
    I don't see anything wrong with that clip. Falstad was an idiot. If he had held up a little and traveled with Azmodan that never would have happened because Azmo's laser would have destroyed the revealed Nova.

    Yes, sometimes Nova kills people and there was legitimately nothing they could do about it. But most of the time they just don't adjust their play style in reaction to her, and they die. What you guys aren't showing are all the videos where Nova has to hang back because it's too risky for her to engage.

    It may not be fun to play against her sometimes, but her win rate statistics across every league and in QM and HL show that she's just fine power-wise.

    bnet: Supagoat#1884
    Switch: 6589-6405-3399
    jungleroomxSo It Goes
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    Supagoat wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that clip. Falstad was an idiot. If he had held up a little and traveled with Azmodan that never would have happened because Azmo's laser would have destroyed the revealed Nova.

    Yes, sometimes Nova kills people and there was legitimately nothing they could do about it. But most of the time they just don't adjust their play style in reaction to her, and they die. What you guys aren't showing are all the videos where Nova has to hang back because it's too risky for her to engage.

    It may not be fun to play against her sometimes, but her win rate statistics across every league and in QM and HL show that she's just fine power-wise.

    He was an idiot for trying to get to an in-progress fight as fast as possible? Azmodan is a pretty crap bodygaurd anyway, Falstad would still die and nova can just walk away because azmo lazer isn't going to kill her from full health before she can break it.

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
    shrykefortyEtiowsaMMMigkimeFry
  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    It's Azmodan, so I'm sure he meant bodyblock, rather than bodyguard.

    (and not the protective body block either)

    Donnicton on
    Fry
  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Supagoat wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that clip. Falstad was an idiot. If he had held up a little and traveled with Azmodan that never would have happened because Azmo's laser would have destroyed the revealed Nova.

    Yes, sometimes Nova kills people and there was legitimately nothing they could do about it. But most of the time they just don't adjust their play style in reaction to her, and they die. What you guys aren't showing are all the videos where Nova has to hang back because it's too risky for her to engage.

    It may not be fun to play against her sometimes, but her win rate statistics across every league and in QM and HL show that she's just fine power-wise.

    He was an idiot for trying to get to an in-progress fight as fast as possible? Azmodan is a pretty crap bodygaurd anyway, Falstad would still die and nova can just walk away because azmo lazer isn't going to kill her from full health before she can break it.

    If your opponent has a Nova and you dont know where she is and youre one of the squishiest heroes in the game, Id say wandering off by yourself is asking for it.

    Yes, she killed him in 1 hit. It was also a perfect setup, a thing which does not happen much.

    If Nova is really that overpowered then I suspect her win rate would be well above 50%. Any wagers on what it actually is?

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    Im really not trying to be nasty, but why is it Nova and Zeratul are the only heroes people feel they shouldnt have to adjust their playstyle to?

  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    The problem right now with Nova isn't Nova.

    It's GP.

    Okay, it's partially Nova, I mean. Her kit is very binary. She's designed to completely nuke down a single target and she can do so in the blink of an eye, then walk away. Sure, staying grouped helps, but sometimes you can't. Sometimes you get popped because you were alone and OOPS LOL U DUN GOT NOVA'D.

    But right now it's mostly GP.

    GP ultimately needs to be removed from the game. So, 4 Heroes have access to GP right now. Kael'thas, Nova, Nazeebo, and Zeratul. Two are stealth Heroes, two are not. Kael'thas and Nazeebo can be aggressed fairly easily, but Zeratul and Nova have stealth. But Zeratul's a melee Hero, and so he can be punished when he destealths. Nova can simply pop off her combo and walk away. Now, that all said and done, Kael/Nazeebo/Zeratul don't really take GP still. Sometimes, but rarely.

    So GP really only affects Nova right now. The other 3 Heroes have other talents they can grab instead, often being pretty good on their own merits (Nether Wind, Spider Cluster, Master Warp Blade). But Nova? Poor baby girl ain't got shit aside from GP.

    So, remove GP, rework Nova's talents (she's supposedly getting one anyway!), she'll be in a hopefully better spot. I don't think her kit needs changing, nor do I think she needs to stop being what she is, but... I dunno, GP isn't healthy for the game and it's very forefront and center with Nova.

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
    shrykeTheStigfortyInquisitor77Stericamilk ducksSo It Goes
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Supagoat wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that clip. Falstad was an idiot. If he had held up a little and traveled with Azmodan that never would have happened because Azmo's laser would have destroyed the revealed Nova.

    Yes, sometimes Nova kills people and there was legitimately nothing they could do about it. But most of the time they just don't adjust their play style in reaction to her, and they die. What you guys aren't showing are all the videos where Nova has to hang back because it's too risky for her to engage.

    It may not be fun to play against her sometimes, but her win rate statistics across every league and in QM and HL show that she's just fine power-wise.
    Is same thing as wow rogues. The rogue comes out of nowhere, blows you up, leaves OR you catch him out of stealth and blow him up. The ret/arms/dk comes charging from a mile away and blows you up with a giant sword to the face OR you kite him and blow him up. Guess which one is hated more? The rogue because of the "out of nowhere".

    steam_sig.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Supagoat wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that clip. Falstad was an idiot. If he had held up a little and traveled with Azmodan that never would have happened because Azmo's laser would have destroyed the revealed Nova

    Uh, what?

    Azmodan can't stop that kill. And Nova can likely escape any attempt Azmodan could make to kill her back. You gotta be damn close for laser + dunk to get her and that's assuming her team doesn't intervene.

    The problem with Nova is pretty simple: she's a stealth burst hero who got a talent that when her team is already up turns her into an instagib from stealth hero with no counters beyond "hopefully you can kill her after she deletes one of your players"

    She's a hard enough hero to balance already (hence why she's been either overpowered or considered not worth taking in competitive play since she was launched) and the GP rework flipped her from one side to the other.

    shryke on
    fortyMMMigkimeDibby
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    So we are getting a xmas themed treasure goblin mount and
    2979108-hots1.jpg

  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    This better mean jaina skin will be buyable separately!

    bnet: TheStig#1787 Steam: TheStig
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Dustin Bowser already said they will be reworking Nova's kit, didn't he?

    So it looks like blizzard isn't okay with where she stands and we'll all have to wait and see where she ends up

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
    shryke
  • The Escape GoatThe Escape Goat incorrigible ruminant they/themRegistered User regular
    this just in: nova is now a melee specialist

    9uiytxaqj2j0.jpg
    TheStigInquisitor77Fry
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    I'm pretty sure they are gonna go with something like they mentioned at Blizzcon that replaces GP with some sort of "Stacking damage on Snipe until you miss on a Snipe" type thing.

    I think they are, I think to the games improvement, going to gradually replace GP on most characters with some sort of character specific buff that works better as a scaling buff. (see Falstad)

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    I would be totally fine if they reworked her kit from the ground up and turned her into a specialist.

    Snipe, Lockdown, EMP, and have her abilites be tac strike and domination (take over enemy mercs permanently).

    kime
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    TheStig wrote: »
    This better mean jaina skin will be buyable separately!

    Well I do hope it's not a bundle as I don't want this or that of it

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Supagoat wrote: »
    I don't see anything wrong with that clip. Falstad was an idiot. If he had held up a little and traveled with Azmodan that never would have happened because Azmo's laser would have destroyed the revealed Nova

    Uh, what?

    Azmodan can't stop that kill. And Nova can likely escape any attempt Azmodan could make to kill her back. You gotta be damn close for laser + dunk to get her and that's assuming her team doesn't intervene.

    The problem with Nova is pretty simple: she's a stealth burst hero who got a talent that when her team is already up turns her into an instagib from stealth hero with no counters beyond "hopefully you can kill her after she deletes one of your players"

    She's a hard enough hero to balance already (hence why she's been either overpowered or considered not worth taking in competitive play since she was launched) and the GP rework flipped her from one side to the other.

    Yeah Azmodan has nothing to do with that play. He's very clearly dunking the ongoing fight, and too far away to do anything besides that. She didn't even expose herself until after he started the cast.

    You can't just group together and literally not do anything until you reveal the opposing Nova. If the enemy team is halfway competent they can use that to their advantage and just poke you to death off of objectives because nobody can use their cooldowns until Nova exposes herself (assuming they don't blow the cooldowns on Nova's doubles instead). Or they can do something really fun like force you to stay close together enough to set up wombo combos. Or they can just have her bait half your team into an ambush in an attempt to get to Nova before an engagement starts.

    Like, that clip perfectly encapsulates what's wrong with Nova right now. You could've had Muradin standing in the bushes there (instead of Azmodan too far away to do anything), and he wouldn't have been able to do anything. Falstad was deleted in under a second. The best he could do is retaliate by burning all his cooldowns and hitting her 2-3 times. Wooooooo. She's now down to <half health and can walk away from you once the stun and slow wear off. In the meantime your main tank has used up his cooldowns to try to kill her and is now drastically out of position while the rest of your team is getting destroyed.

    TheStigshryke
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited December 2015
    Donnicton wrote: »
    Only problem with Yrel is that she may not be high priority, as she's a pretty unremarkable character if you're a Horde player(whereas most other Alliance heroes have some significance to both factions). She's basically just "there" at the end of the Horde side expansion and has no other significance.
    As opposed to Stitches, the character that was literally in one quest chain for one faction? A character who, as far as I can tell, hasn't even been in the game for a number of years?

    Yrel was at least present throughout all of Warlords. She'd also fill in the Prot Paladin niche.

    Sterica on
    YL9WnCY.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Donnicton wrote: »
    Only problem with Yrel is that she may not be high priority, as she's a pretty unremarkable character if you're a Horde player(whereas most other Alliance heroes have some significance to both factions). She's basically just "there" at the end of the Horde side expansion and has no other significance.
    As opposed to Stitches, the character that was literally in one quest chain for one faction? A character who, as far as I can tell, hasn't even been in the game for a number of years?

    Yrel was at least present throughout all of Warlords. She'd also fill in the Prot Paladin niche.

    Stiches is quite well known, like Hogger. Even to the Horde. He's one of those random characters that made a big impression back in Beta/Vanilla that is well remembered by alot of people from that time. In large part in his case cause he was legit terrifying back then and would fuck Darkshire up but good.


    Maybe it reflects when and how I played WoW (not after Panda time and mostly Horde) but basically none of the Dranei ever made a big impression Horde side. They were always kinda the forgotten race. I guess they had Valen?

    shryke on
    Donnicton
  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Trust me when I say Yrel left an impression.

    YL9WnCY.png
    PMAversSo It Goes
This discussion has been closed.