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As cool as winter, as hot as summer and all Wizard [Harry Dresden]-Next book is not out!

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Posts

  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Moridin889 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Moridin889 wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I don't disagree with you and I am actuallly in the same place as you for my re-read! Just finished White Knight last night, but. . .
    It. . . kind of was setup books ago. You first hear her presence in Dresden's mind at the end of Death Masks and then you start to see Hellfire-turbo-charged spells throughout Dead Beat and Proven Guilty is when I think they have their first meeting. At the beginning of White Knight you find out that Dresden (or his Id) named Lasciel's Shadow 'Lash'. That simple act of naming that presence something else is enough to give it individuality and with individuality comes freedom of expression and choice. I will admit that the climax of that foundation during the bomb sequence was rushed, but Lash is quick to realize that Dresden's willingness to die for his principles and his friends is what makes him better than Lasciel was, is, or deserves. So Lash helps him out.

    That whole idea of naming something comes back in a big way in Turn Coat when we found out that him calling The Archive, 'Ivy', has some serious ramifications for her power and position within the Unseelie Accords.

    This all ties back to the first book when Dresden explains the power of names to contact and influence individuals.

    There's a bit more to the name thing too
    Harry's habit of giving nicknames to all the big bads isn't just him being a dick. It's actually to deflect and mitigate their power, even just a smidge. At one point in time he makes a nickname for Uriel and they flip out because it is effectively erasing part of their being

    I don't think he does that intentionally, does he?

    I don't think he realized the extent of its import but it was definitely intentional

    I assumed that his tendency towards giving his opponents nicknames was more him just being Harry and exercising a juvenile sense of humor rather than any intentional strategy on his part. It seems pretty classic from the PI Detective playbook: Insult your enemy, get them angry, hope they make a mistake, then hope that mistake is one you can survive.
    The fact that it may have an actual effect on them beyond just making them angry is unintentional.

    You guys are going to make me reread to pull up the relevant passage :(

  • NitsuaNitsua Newport News, VARegistered User regular
    Well, when he gave that nickname, it was like one would do with a friend, but the dude took great umbrage to it since he is tied so closely to his name. I'm sure that it was only in his particular case that Naming him actually would cause something that catastrophic. [/spolier]

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Going to have to re-read anyway by the time Peace Talks comes out, so may as well start a list of things to look into.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Well, when he gave that nickname, it was like one would do with a friend, but the dude took great umbrage to it since he is tied so closely to his name. I'm sure that it was only in his particular case that Naming him actually would cause something that catastrophic. [/spolier]
    I didn't get the impression that the name thing was going to do anything except on a psychological level. It makes sense that an archangel would consider the part of his name describing his relationship with God to be important.

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  • Last SonLast Son Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Well, when he gave that nickname, it was like one would do with a friend, but the dude took great umbrage to it since he is tied so closely to his name. I'm sure that it was only in his particular case that Naming him actually would cause something that catastrophic. [/spolier]
    Uriel was only upset that Dresden called him Uri because Uriel means god's light so Dresden was effectively saying that Uriel was no longer with god, which is a big damn deal for an archangel. Uriel was neutral toward being called Mr. Sunshine.

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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Last Son wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Well, when he gave that nickname, it was like one would do with a friend, but the dude took great umbrage to it since he is tied so closely to his name. I'm sure that it was only in his particular case that Naming him actually would cause something that catastrophic. [/spolier]
    Uriel was only upset that Dresden called him Uri because Uriel means god's light so Dresden was effectively saying that Uriel was no longer with god, which is a big damn deal for an archangel. Uriel was neutral toward being called Mr. Sunshine.
    If I'm remembering correctly, the -el suffix means "of God", so yeah the literal archangel wouldn't be too happy about that part being left out.

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  • NitsuaNitsua Newport News, VARegistered User regular
    To those wondering, that part is in
    Ghost Story Ch. 50
    - found a reference page here: http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Dresden_Files
    According to the Wiki, he was both angered and scared. For a being of his power to be scared, Dresden Naming him that must have had a consequnce, were he to continue. I'll have to look it over more carefully once I reach there. I've only just finished Death Masks on my re-read

  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Ghost Story
    Hah, this bit is great:

    "Butters," rumbled Skaldi Hair Ball. If he really had broken fingers, it didn't look like they were bothering him much. "When are you going to get in this ring and train like a man?"

    "About five minutes after I get a functional lightsaber," Butters replied easily, much to Hair Ball's amusement.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    To those wondering, that part is in
    Ghost Story Ch. 50
    - found a reference page here: http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Dresden_Files
    According to the Wiki, he was both angered and scared. For a being of his power to be scared, Dresden Naming him that must have had a consequnce, were he to continue. I'll have to look it over more carefully once I reach there. I've only just finished Death Masks on my re-read

    Maybe making up the nickname wouldn't be a problem, but if he ever responded to that nickname, acknowledged in any way that that might be who he is, there might be consequences.

    NitsuaMr Ray
  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    syndalis wrote: »
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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Dresden's nicknames are equal parts pique, spite, and convenience.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Also Mab would probably take that as an insult and do something horrible to him, multiple times.

  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Also Mab would probably take that as an insult and do something horrible to him, multiple times.

    She might also take it as a complement and do something horrible to him, multiple times.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    syndalis wrote: »
    Apple is a terrible company.
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    However, one of the stories in Brief Cases only further cements some of these considerations with
    Molly. Her being able to use a cellphone was considered a 'big deal', and everyone handwashed it away with 'oh, the Svartalves did it, it's fine', and then the story indicates
    Nope, Molly is fully under Winter's sway. From her inner monologue to the unfortunate ending, she may well no longer be classified as Human/Mortal

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Forar wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    However, one of the stories in Brief Cases only further cements some of these considerations with
    Molly. Her being able to use a cellphone was considered a 'big deal', and everyone handwashed it away with 'oh, the Svartalves did it, it's fine', and then the story indicates
    Nope, Molly is fully under Winter's sway. From her inner monologue to the unfortunate ending, she may well no longer be classified as Human/Mortal
    Molly is full fae now. She's a Queen, not a Knight, and not mortal at all anymore.

    syndalis wrote: »
    Apple is a terrible company.
    ElvenshaeRingo
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    It does raise some questions on a different matter.
    (Post Skin Game)
    Molly is unusual, since normally the mantles pass to fae. Does she actually have the ability to tell Mab to fuck off... unwise as that would be?

    Mab has chosen to keep her unaware and away from Dresden rather than forbidding anything, whether you read anything into that...

    But there's a notable scene where the Winter Mother beats a lesson about free will into Dresden and the difference between fae and mortals in that regard.

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.

    syndalis wrote: »
    Apple is a terrible company.
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.

    Yeah, I was mostly joking :)

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    fair

    syndalis wrote: »
    Apple is a terrible company.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    However, one of the stories in Brief Cases only further cements some of these considerations with
    Molly. Her being able to use a cellphone was considered a 'big deal', and everyone handwashed it away with 'oh, the Svartalves did it, it's fine', and then the story indicates
    Nope, Molly is fully under Winter's sway. From her inner monologue to the unfortunate ending, she may well no longer be classified as Human/Mortal
    Molly is full fae now. She's a Queen, not a Knight, and not mortal at all anymore.

    Yea, about that...
    I'm trying to remember how exactly that went down but I don't remember Molly volunteering for it. Wasn't she forced into it by the other likely candidate being shot in the head by Maeve? I suppose we get to talk about her choices leading up to her being at that place and time but it seems like they skipped over her free will.

    FakeEdit: Even some googling shows I'm misremembering some details of that encounter. Hmm..

  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Faerie Knights are easily and clearly under their queens total control.
    Fix is shown to be under geas compulsion and unable to actor speak multiple times in the series.

    Of course, faerie courts operate on the direct letter of the law so there is usually
    a loop hole.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.

    (Ghost Story)
    It's the last major plot beat of Ghost Story even - Dresden uses that fact to force limits on the Winter Knight deal. It lets him actually dictate terms to Mab.

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    However, one of the stories in Brief Cases only further cements some of these considerations with
    Molly. Her being able to use a cellphone was considered a 'big deal', and everyone handwashed it away with 'oh, the Svartalves did it, it's fine', and then the story indicates
    Nope, Molly is fully under Winter's sway. From her inner monologue to the unfortunate ending, she may well no longer be classified as Human/Mortal
    Molly is full fae now. She's a Queen, not a Knight, and not mortal at all anymore.

    Yea, about that...
    I'm trying to remember how exactly that went down but I don't remember Molly volunteering for it. Wasn't she forced into it by the other likely candidate being shot in the head by Maeve? I suppose we get to talk about her choices leading up to her being at that place and time but it seems like they skipped over her free will.

    FakeEdit: Even some googling shows I'm misremembering some details of that encounter. Hmm..

    Spoilers All still:
    It's actually discussed somewhere, at the end of Cold Days I think.

    Molly had the choice to not become intertwined with Winter. She chose to continue her training with the Winter Queen's right-hand-fae, and that's what positioned her to be an option for the mantle. She started to act (of her own free will) in a way that was aligned with Winter during the time Harry was dead(tm). At several points, she had the ability to stop and she convinced herself that she couldn't, which is still within her will.

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Faerie Knights are easily and clearly under their queens total control.
    Fix is shown to be under geas compulsion might I act or speak multiple times in the series.

    Of course, faerie courts operate on the direct letter of the law so there is usually
    a loop hole.
    Fix is a changeling, it's probably not a great idea to use him as an example here.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Faerie Knights are easily and clearly under their queens total control.
    Fix is shown to be under geas compulsion might I act or speak multiple times in the series.

    Of course, faerie courts operate on the direct letter of the law so there is usually
    a loop hole.
    Fix is a changeling, it's probably not a great idea to use him as an example here.
    I thought, weirdly, by becoming a Knight he had rejected his Fae heritage in favor of his human.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    Forar wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.

    However, one of the stories in Brief Cases only further cements some of these considerations with
    Molly. Her being able to use a cellphone was considered a 'big deal', and everyone handwashed it away with 'oh, the Svartalves did it, it's fine', and then the story indicates
    Nope, Molly is fully under Winter's sway. From her inner monologue to the unfortunate ending, she may well no longer be classified as Human/Mortal
    Molly is full fae now. She's a Queen, not a Knight, and not mortal at all anymore.

    Yea, about that...
    I'm trying to remember how exactly that went down but I don't remember Molly volunteering for it. Wasn't she forced into it by the other likely candidate being shot in the head by Maeve? I suppose we get to talk about her choices leading up to her being at that place and time but it seems like they skipped over her free will.

    FakeEdit: Even some googling shows I'm misremembering some details of that encounter. Hmm..

    Spoilers All still:
    It's actually discussed somewhere, at the end of Cold Days I think.

    Molly had the choice to not become intertwined with Winter. She chose to continue her training with the Winter Queen's right-hand-fae, and that's what positioned her to be an option for the mantle. She started to act (of her own free will) in a way that was aligned with Winter during the time Harry was dead(tm). At several points, she had the ability to stop and she convinced herself that she couldn't, which is still within her will.
    But she didn't choose to take the mantle. And training with Lea did not inherently out any obligations on her either, because Lea was offering it out of her own obligations to Dresden (as his faerie godmother and in respect to him being Winter Knight).

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.
    Yeah... but that makes the Lady mantles kind of weird, because that basically over-rides free will without much choice for the host in the matter. It's also my main beef with where Molly's at right now.

    I mostly just really hope they don't (to use some Dresdenesque parlance) Darth Vader Molly

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    I think something to keep in mind with regards to mantles, fey courts, free will et al. is that most of this is from Harry's perspective, which is notoriously limited and often flat out wrong. I suspect that is going to be the case to at least some extent, here.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    KetBra wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.
    Yeah... but that makes the Lady mantles kind of weird, because that basically over-rides free will without much choice for the host in the matter. It's also my main beef with where Molly's at right now.

    I mostly just really hope they don't (to use some Dresdenesque parlance) Darth Vader Molly

    (Skin Game to be safe)
    I would put it down to "Molly doesn't know" since nobody around her is exactly inclined to tell her (maybe, MAYBE the Winter Mother, considering her lesson to Dresden).

    Consider Dresden's reaction to Uriel whispering in his ear. He hadn't even considered that, but knowing it gave him leverage against Mab.

    And normally the lady mantle can't go to a mortal. It was explictly because it was Sovvan Night that Molly was eligible at all. A fae or changeling candidate raises no/fewer questions.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.
    Yeah... but that makes the Lady mantles kind of weird, because that basically over-rides free will without much choice for the host in the matter. It's also my main beef with where Molly's at right now.

    I mostly just really hope they don't (to use some Dresdenesque parlance) Darth Vader Molly

    (Skin Game to be safe)
    I would put it down to "Molly doesn't know" since nobody around her is exactly inclined to tell her (maybe, MAYBE the Winter Mother, considering her lesson to Dresden).

    Consider Dresden's reaction to Uriel whispering in his ear. He hadn't even considered that, but knowing it gave him leverage against Mab.

    And normally the lady mantle can't go to a mortal. It was explictly because it was Sovvan Night that Molly was eligible at all. A fae or changeling candidate raises no/fewer questions.
    I was under impression that the mantles had different requirements, and in circumstances where those requirements could not be filled, it would enforce them on the bearer by changing their natures fundamentally.
    The Lady's Mantle is supposed to go to a fae to fulfill the purpose of protecting reality or checking the Winter court. But because it went to Molly, it's nudged her into more of a fae because it couldn't be worn by a mortal.
    The Knight's mantle is supposed to go to a human, since putting it on a fae kind of defeats the purpose (that purpose being an agent of the fae court who's not required to bow to the laws of the fae), so when Fix became a knight, he was moved more towards the mortal end of the spectrum to be able to fulfill that purpose.
    That could all be wrong, it's well past time for me to read through the series again, but it's hard to work up the will to do so without having a new book to look forward to at the end.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.
    Yeah... but that makes the Lady mantles kind of weird, because that basically over-rides free will without much choice for the host in the matter. It's also my main beef with where Molly's at right now.

    I mostly just really hope they don't (to use some Dresdenesque parlance) Darth Vader Molly

    (Skin Game to be safe)
    I would put it down to "Molly doesn't know" since nobody around her is exactly inclined to tell her (maybe, MAYBE the Winter Mother, considering her lesson to Dresden).

    Consider Dresden's reaction to Uriel whispering in his ear. He hadn't even considered that, but knowing it gave him leverage against Mab.

    And normally the lady mantle can't go to a mortal. It was explictly because it was Sovvan Night that Molly was eligible at all. A fae or changeling candidate raises no/fewer questions.
    I was under impression that the mantles had different requirements, and in circumstances where those requirements could not be filled, it would enforce them on the bearer by changing their natures fundamentally.
    The Lady's Mantle is supposed to go to a fae to fulfill the purpose of protecting reality or checking the Winter court. But because it went to Molly, it's nudged her into more of a fae because it couldn't be worn by a mortal.
    The Knight's mantle is supposed to go to a human, since putting it on a fae kind of defeats the purpose (that purpose being an agent of the fae court who's not required to bow to the laws of the fae), so when Fix became a knight, he was moved more towards the mortal end of the spectrum to be able to fulfill that purpose.
    That could all be wrong, it's well past time for me to read through the series again, but it's hard to work up the will to do so without having a new book to look forward to at the end.

    If it's any consolation the books are still really really good on reread. I've been going through like one every couple of days.

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Delmain wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    I think it's interesting that Dresden has never given Mab a nickname, he's given one to most other recurring Big Scary Things

    It's a nice solid, short single-syllable name

    no need for a nickname on that one

    He doesn't want to name her easily with the whole say three times and summon bit.

    Alternatively, she's one of the few beings that he knows well enough to fear/respect appropriately.

    Uh, depending on just how far in the grip of Winter Law he now is he literally might not be able to show her disrespect like that.

    I'm gonna go with spoilers all because I don't remember when this stuff happened.
    No, it's seemingly impossible for Winter Law to actually stop a knight from doing something. It's not like normal Fae where they are just not able to lie at all. Dresden just would lose access to the powers that the Mantle granted if he broke the law, like what happened with "Damn Winter Law" in Molly's apartment and he collapsed because his healed back came un-done.

    The Knights must still be mortal, and part of being mortal is having free will. Winter can't *stop* him from doing something, but they can threaten to rebuke him if he chooses to disobey them.
    Free-ish will :P. They'll all try to control and brainwash him as much as they can.
    Controlling information in an attempt to predict what he'll do with that specific information is not the same thing as removing Free Will. Free Will in the Dresden-verse is like, a capital letter Thing that differentiates between Mortals and many non-mortals.
    Yeah... but that makes the Lady mantles kind of weird, because that basically over-rides free will without much choice for the host in the matter. It's also my main beef with where Molly's at right now.

    I mostly just really hope they don't (to use some Dresdenesque parlance) Darth Vader Molly

    (Skin Game to be safe)
    I would put it down to "Molly doesn't know" since nobody around her is exactly inclined to tell her (maybe, MAYBE the Winter Mother, considering her lesson to Dresden).

    Consider Dresden's reaction to Uriel whispering in his ear. He hadn't even considered that, but knowing it gave him leverage against Mab.

    And normally the lady mantle can't go to a mortal. It was explictly because it was Sovvan Night that Molly was eligible at all. A fae or changeling candidate raises no/fewer questions.
    I was under impression that the mantles had different requirements, and in circumstances where those requirements could not be filled, it would enforce them on the bearer by changing their natures fundamentally.
    The Lady's Mantle is supposed to go to a fae to fulfill the purpose of protecting reality or checking the Winter court. But because it went to Molly, it's nudged her into more of a fae because it couldn't be worn by a mortal.
    The Knight's mantle is supposed to go to a human, since putting it on a fae kind of defeats the purpose (that purpose being an agent of the fae court who's not required to bow to the laws of the fae), so when Fix became a knight, he was moved more towards the mortal end of the spectrum to be able to fulfill that purpose.
    That could all be wrong, it's well past time for me to read through the series again, but it's hard to work up the will to do so without having a new book to look forward to at the end.

    If it's any consolation the books are still really really good on reread. I've been going through like one every couple of days.

    You notice the first few have a lower quality, but they also go by quickly.

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Re: Fae / Mortals / Etc.

    Is everyone forgetting that ...

    Full Series spoilers:
    Mab claims to have been mortal once, too, a long time ago? In that sense, what happened to her and what happened to Molly might not be too different.

    Now, there might be some weaseling there, but I think that's due more to faeries not saying things straight out rather than her doing the lie-with-the-truth bit.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Re: Fae / Mortals / Etc.

    Is everyone forgetting that ...

    Full Series spoilers:
    Mab claims to have been mortal once, too, a long time ago? In that sense, what happened to her and what happened to Molly might not be too different.

    Now, there might be some weaseling there, but I think that's due more to faeries not saying things straight out rather than her doing the lie-with-the-truth bit.

    Huh, so, following some logic from that (wild speculation/Full series spoilers)
    So, it seems to me like The Leanansidhe is very very likely to be a mantle. As we know from Cold Days, mantles can fall to mortals who consort with the fey on a regular basis.

    I wonder if Margaret LeFay is not dead, but rather, is no longer alive, by strict definition. I don't think it's a lock, but it would not surprise me if Lea was actually Margaret, after some decades of holding a Winter Court mantle.

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