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As cool as winter, as hot as summer and all Wizard [Harry Dresden]-Next book is not out!

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Posts

  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    Continuing the current thread:
    In most sources, mortals becoming Fae is not an uncommon thing. I wouldn't read much into "but how could that happen, she HAD to be a Fae" because becoming a Fae is as simple as a sufficiently powerful Fae deciding that they want you to be one and snapping their fingers.

    Space.
    Siska
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Re: Fae / Mortals / Etc.

    Is everyone forgetting that ...

    Full Series spoilers:
    Mab claims to have been mortal once, too, a long time ago? In that sense, what happened to her and what happened to Molly might not be too different.

    Now, there might be some weaseling there, but I think that's due more to faeries not saying things straight out rather than her doing the lie-with-the-truth bit.

    Huh, so, following some logic from that (wild speculation/Full series spoilers)
    So, it seems to me like The Leanansidhe is very very likely to be a mantle. As we know from Cold Days, mantles can fall to mortals who consort with the fey on a regular basis.

    I wonder if Margaret LeFay is not dead, but rather, is no longer alive, by strict definition. I don't think it's a lock, but it would not surprise me if Lea was actually Margaret, after some decades of holding a Winter Court mantle.

    ....

    *thinks back over the series*

    ....fuck.

    KetBraHeirRchanenkimeForarElvenshaeJayrichoMoridin889HefflingjdarksunMegaMan001Ringowebguy20
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    Continuing the current thread:
    In most sources, mortals becoming Fae is not an uncommon thing. I wouldn't read much into "but how could that happen, she HAD to be a Fae" because becoming a Fae is as simple as a sufficiently powerful Fae deciding that they want you to be one and snapping their fingers.
    Doesn't work that way.

    The book is explicit that the line between mortal/immortal is very rigid except on Sovvan Night. It also implies the Darkhallow wouldn't work on any other night of the year.

    Additionally, there's a distinction between the Queens and lesser fae in that the queens are truly immortal - they cannot be killed, period, except in specific circumstances (Stone Table, Sovvan Night, etc),

    Edit: Regarding Lea (Full series)
    I sincerely doubt she was ever a mortal. She's a legend in her own right. Which, per Dresdenverse rules, is sufficient to cause her to exist anyways.

    The Leanan Sidhe originates in Celtic folklore, as a muse and lover (with usually early deaths). Though in that case it's more a type of faerie than a specific one, but it's not like that matters much.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    Continuing the current thread:
    In most sources, mortals becoming Fae is not an uncommon thing. I wouldn't read much into "but how could that happen, she HAD to be a Fae" because becoming a Fae is as simple as a sufficiently powerful Fae deciding that they want you to be one and snapping their fingers.
    Doesn't work that way.

    The book is explicit that the line between mortal/immortal is very rigid except on Sovvan Night. It also implies the Darkhallow wouldn't work on any other night of the year.

    Additionally, there's a distinction between the Queens and lesser fae in that the queens are truly immortal - they cannot be killed, period, except in specific circumstances (Stone Table, Sovvan Night, etc),

    Edit: Regarding Lea (Full series)
    I sincerely doubt she was ever a mortal. She's a legend in her own right. Which, per Dresdenverse rules, is sufficient to cause her to exist anyways.

    The Leanan Sidhe originates in Celtic folklore, as a muse and lover (with usually early deaths). Though in that case it's more a type of faerie than a specific one, but it's not like that matters much.

    Lea (full series)
    To be fair, that may not matter. Many supernatural entities which have ties to folklore, like the Fairy Queens, Mab, Santa Claus etc are still mantles in the Dresden 'verse. Butcher occasionally does play fast and loose with adaptions RE: vampires, werewolves, the Skinwalker.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Molly (full series to be safe):
    She was forced into the Mantle, training or not. As said, she in no way accepted the mantle initially. So her soul should still be hers if nothing else. I kind of suspect this to play an important roll at some point. Or she's screwed because she accepted it after the fact.

    But Harry is not going to let her turn into Maeve/Mab. Or he's really not going to like it if she has to take one for the team. Which would suck.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
    Neal Stephenson
    DelmainkimeElvenshae
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Tarantio wrote: »
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    Margaret LeFay (full series)
    This is a theory, but maybe when a mortal inherits a mantle they "count" as dead to the mortal world where magic spells are concerned? How much do we know about the circumstances about her death? Maybe she just gave him a curse before becoming a Fae, and this was covered up to look like a death curse.

  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Tarantio wrote: »
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    Margaret LeFay (full series)
    This is a theory, but maybe when a mortal inherits a mantle they "count" as dead to the mortal world where magic spells are concerned? How much do we know about the circumstances about her death? Maybe she just gave him a curse before becoming a Fae, and this was covered up to look like a death curse.
    Also as far as I remember the whole "White King gets crippled by Maggie's Death Curse" thing was supposition on Dresden's part. All Margaret's soul vision message tells Dresden is that she got her revenge on him. Also she gives him some knowledge and power which, I don't really recall what that ends up being. It's a weirdly similar scene to the one in Changes with Lea.

    The most obvious problem with this theory is that you would think that Lea would look a little like Maggie, but who knows with the Fae.

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  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    Margaret LeFay (full series)
    This is a theory, but maybe when a mortal inherits a mantle they "count" as dead to the mortal world where magic spells are concerned? How much do we know about the circumstances about her death? Maybe she just gave him a curse before becoming a Fae, and this was covered up to look like a death curse.
    Also as far as I remember the whole "White King gets crippled by Maggie's Death Curse" thing was supposition on Dresden's part. All Margaret's soul vision message tells Dresden is that she got her revenge on him. Also she gives him some knowledge and power which, I don't really recall what that ends up being. It's a weirdly similar scene to the one in Changes with Lea.

    The most obvious problem with this theory is that you would think that Lea would look a little like Maggie, but who knows with the Fae.

    Veils are a thing. (Full series)
    Lea is good at them.

    I don't suppose Harry has ever used his sight on her?

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Tarantio wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    Margaret LeFay (full series)
    This is a theory, but maybe when a mortal inherits a mantle they "count" as dead to the mortal world where magic spells are concerned? How much do we know about the circumstances about her death? Maybe she just gave him a curse before becoming a Fae, and this was covered up to look like a death curse.
    Also as far as I remember the whole "White King gets crippled by Maggie's Death Curse" thing was supposition on Dresden's part. All Margaret's soul vision message tells Dresden is that she got her revenge on him. Also she gives him some knowledge and power which, I don't really recall what that ends up being. It's a weirdly similar scene to the one in Changes with Lea.

    The most obvious problem with this theory is that you would think that Lea would look a little like Maggie, but who knows with the Fae.

    Veils are a thing. (Full series)
    Lea is good at them.

    I don't suppose Harry has ever used his sight on her?

    Probably not. Using the sight on anything that's not a cute puppy carries a high risk of PTSD at best and Lovecraftian style madness at worst.
    This is a disturbing theory though, since LeFay 'died' about 23 years ago (relative to the beginning of the series), and Lea is as frothing at the mouth as any Fae in the first book. So if Margaret took up a mantel that doesn't bode well for Molly being able to keep her shit together over the not very long term.

    I don't think that's the case though. A Death Curse takes juice, serious reality impacting, bind the threads of fate, can't be undone juice. That's not the sort of power I associate with the mantels, and I think requiring an unbreakable curse to require the death of the curser makes for a sort of symmetry with things.

    RchanenDelmainkimejdarksunHeir
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    I don't buy it, but the mantles are still largely ????:
    When Harry first got it it made him semi-invulnerable. He took a hit instead of being pasted. Then Butters comes up with the PSP idea which doesn't track, which is like how Harry may be getting things wrong from his own personal conclusions. And as has been brought up the rules for passing the mantles were short circuited.

    So the Mantles can do pretty much anything at this point still.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I don't buy it, but the mantles are still largely ????:
    When Harry first got it it made him semi-invulnerable. He took a hit instead of being pasted. Then Butters comes up with the PSP idea which doesn't track, which is like how Harry may be getting things wrong from his own personal conclusions. And as has been brought up the rules for passing the mantles were short circuited.

    So the Mantles can do pretty much anything at this point still.

    Yeah, but that's also a large part of the Dresden files it seems.
    Like, it seems that any time that Dresden has said that he knows exactly how and why something functions the way it does, or expressed that he knows the limitations of something, he's been proven wrong in relatively short order.

    So, if he ever says "This is exactly what the Mantle works...", then we're only a chapter or two (at most) from his assumptions blowing up in his face.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    DoodmannNitsuaElvenshaeMr Ray
  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    Margaret LeFay (full series)
    This is a theory, but maybe when a mortal inherits a mantle they "count" as dead to the mortal world where magic spells are concerned? How much do we know about the circumstances about her death? Maybe she just gave him a curse before becoming a Fae, and this was covered up to look like a death curse.
    Also as far as I remember the whole "White King gets crippled by Maggie's Death Curse" thing was supposition on Dresden's part. All Margaret's soul vision message tells Dresden is that she got her revenge on him. Also she gives him some knowledge and power which, I don't really recall what that ends up being. It's a weirdly similar scene to the one in Changes with Lea.

    The most obvious problem with this theory is that you would think that Lea would look a little like Maggie, but who knows with the Fae.

    Veils are a thing. (Full series)
    Lea is good at them.

    I don't suppose Harry has ever used his sight on her?

    Probably not. Using the sight on anything that's not a cute puppy carries a high risk of PTSD at best and Lovecraftian style madness at worst.
    This is a disturbing theory though, since LeFay 'died' about 23 years ago (relative to the beginning of the series), and Lea is as frothing at the mouth as any Fae in the first book. So if Margaret took up a mantel that doesn't bode well for Molly being able to keep her shit together over the not very long term.

    I don't think that's the case though. A Death Curse takes juice, serious reality impacting, bind the threads of fate, can't be undone juice. That's not the sort of power I associate with the mantels, and I think requiring an unbreakable curse to require the death of the curser makes for a sort of symmetry with things.

    Ghost Story
    "Told me ... I was dead," I muttered.

    "Dead is a grey word," Mab hissed. "Mortals fear it, and so they wish it black - and they have but few words to contain its reality. It escapes from such constraints. Death is a spectrum, not a line. And you, my knight, had not yet vanished into the utter darkness."

    Having said that, my theory probably isn't true.

    Probably

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  • MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Great speculation and theories in here. Love reading them.

    One caveat, Dresden points out time and time again that the laws of magic are flexible and often change.

    Not too much of a stretch to suggest that rules regarding stations within the Faerie Courts are mutable?

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    Great speculation and theories in here. Love reading them.

    One caveat, Dresden points out time and time again that the laws of magic are flexible and often change.

    Not too much of a stretch to suggest that rules regarding stations within the Faerie Courts are mutable?

    It's entirely possible, though at the same time, it's made quite clear that the Fae are resistant to change to their core. Inflexibility to the rules is kind of their thing. One of the short stories in Brief Cases reiterates that pretty firmly.

    Especially when adding Mortal and (series spoiler)
    Outsider
    influence, things are only written in stone until they abruptly aren't.

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  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Tarantio wrote: »
    If Margaret LeFay (full series)
    is mantled up into Lea rather than dead, how do we account for Lord Raith losing the ability to feed? That was supposed to be her death curse.

    I can't recall anything that would definitively prove it was a death curse, but it would require a major source of energy by in-universe rules.

    Margaret LeFay (full series)
    This is a theory, but maybe when a mortal inherits a mantle they "count" as dead to the mortal world where magic spells are concerned? How much do we know about the circumstances about her death? Maybe she just gave him a curse before becoming a Fae, and this was covered up to look like a death curse.
    Also as far as I remember the whole "White King gets crippled by Maggie's Death Curse" thing was supposition on Dresden's part. All Margaret's soul vision message tells Dresden is that she got her revenge on him. Also she gives him some knowledge and power which, I don't really recall what that ends up being. It's a weirdly similar scene to the one in Changes with Lea.

    The most obvious problem with this theory is that you would think that Lea would look a little like Maggie, but who knows with the Fae.

    Veils are a thing. (Full series)
    Lea is good at them.

    I don't suppose Harry has ever used his sight on her?

    Probably not. Using the sight on anything that's not a cute puppy carries a high risk of PTSD at best and Lovecraftian style madness at worst.
    This is a disturbing theory though, since LeFay 'died' about 23 years ago (relative to the beginning of the series), and Lea is as frothing at the mouth as any Fae in the first book. So if Margaret took up a mantel that doesn't bode well for Molly being able to keep her shit together over the not very long term.

    I don't think that's the case though. A Death Curse takes juice, serious reality impacting, bind the threads of fate, can't be undone juice. That's not the sort of power I associate with the mantels, and I think requiring an unbreakable curse to require the death of the curser makes for a sort of symmetry with things.

    Full series spoilers:
    Remember that what is powering Margaret's "Death Curse" is Harry and Thomas. The White King was going to kill them both to break the curse. It's also why Lara can't really mess with either of them - they go and the White King gets his mojo back.

    I think a living spell like that makes more sense as cast from a live wizard than a dead one

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Oh uhhh also holy shit Harry was born on Halloween

    fbgNvCQ.jpg

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Harry would be hundred times dead if not for ton of incidental (or specifically engineered) power ups he has from
    his heritage, time of birth, allies his mom made (Lea), his grandpa taking him under his wing after he ran away from his previous master...
    It's like he was engineered (and, really, he kinda was) to become this powerful badass from the start.

    It's one of the things i like least about him (apart from women issues) as a character.
    He is special, he was made to be special, and i kinda dislike the chosen one protagonists, their status always feels like it cheapens their acchievements.
    That said, Harry is a special hero done pretty well, so it's hardly a major issue.

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  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Oh uhhh also holy shit Harry was born on Halloween

    fbgNvCQ.jpg

    Related to that, after my Fool Moon re-read, I've actually been settling into the theory that Harry unknowingly

    (Full Series)
    bears some sort of mantle of chaos and destruction.

    1. Chauncy says that Margaret's coming was "awaited", implying that she was likely the subject of some prophecy, which I suspect is its own kind of mantle. He says that the Dark Prince "lost her", which sounds like she ultimately did not fulfill whatever mantle she bore. This probably means the mantle has passed, and Harry seems like the most likely candidate.
    2. When Agent Denton soulgazes with him, he says something really strange: "No, wizard. I don't believe in hell. I won't let you!" This is a really fucking weird way to respond to seeing someone's soul, and (IMHO) implies he saw something that was significant about Harry, not just something fucked-up.
    3. Seriously, Dresden breaks more shit than Gordon Freeman. He is literally an extinction-level event at this point -- for the Red Court specifically, but if he really let loose there's probably not much he couldn't eradicate eventually.

    So my theory is that Harry bears some mantle on par with the concept of an Antichrist, inherited from his mother. This is why the Dark Prince was so stoked about Margaret, and so disappointed when he lost her. If the mantle is foretold to be world-ending, that explains why the Outsiders are so interested in Harry, and why Nicodemus seems to think that now, after 2000 years, is the time to make his play. All the major players know that Dresden is going to end the fucking world, but what they don't know is what comes after. So they're all moving their pieces to try and manipulate Dresden, in an effort to lay the groundwork for a new world order that's favorable to them after he burns down the existing one.

    The players I see as aware enough to be playing this game:
    1. The Dark Prince
    2. The White God
    3. Nicodemus, I think, is making his own play separately from the Prince
    4. The Faerie Queens
    5. Outsiders
    6. The Gatekeeper
    7. The Archive
    8. The Black Court of Vampires

    I think Kringle also knows about Harry's mantle, and was trying to drop an oblique hint to him about it in Cold Days, but I don't know if he's involving himself in the actual power struggle surrounding it.

    RingoPolaritiekimeForarElvenshaeJayrichojdarksun
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    WACriminal wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Oh uhhh also holy shit Harry was born on Halloween

    fbgNvCQ.jpg

    Related to that, after my Fool Moon re-read, I've actually been settling into the theory that Harry unknowingly

    (Full Series)
    bears some sort of mantle of chaos and destruction.

    1. Chauncy says that Margaret's coming was "awaited", implying that she was likely the subject of some prophecy, which I suspect is its own kind of mantle. He says that the Dark Prince "lost her", which sounds like she ultimately did not fulfill whatever mantle she bore. This probably means the mantle has passed, and Harry seems like the most likely candidate.
    2. When Agent Denton soulgazes with him, he says something really strange: "No, wizard. I don't believe in hell. I won't let you!" This is a really fucking weird way to respond to seeing someone's soul, and (IMHO) implies he saw something that was significant about Harry, not just something fucked-up.
    3. Seriously, Dresden breaks more shit than Gordon Freeman. He is literally an extinction-level event at this point -- for the Red Court specifically, but if he really let loose there's probably not much he couldn't eradicate eventually.

    So my theory is that Harry bears some mantle on par with the concept of an Antichrist, inherited from his mother. This is why the Dark Prince was so stoked about Margaret, and so disappointed when he lost her. If the mantle is foretold to be world-ending, that explains why the Outsiders are so interested in Harry, and why Nicodemus seems to think that now, after 2000 years, is the time to make his play. All the major players know that Dresden is going to end the fucking world, but what they don't know is what comes after. So they're all moving their pieces to try and manipulate Dresden, in an effort to lay the groundwork for a new world order that's favorable to them after he burns down the existing one.

    The players I see as aware enough to be playing this game:
    1. The Dark Prince
    2. The White God
    3. Nicodemus, I think, is making his own play separately from the Prince
    4. The Faerie Queens
    5. Outsiders
    6. The Gatekeeper
    7. The Archive
    8. The Black Court of Vampires

    I think Kringle also knows about Harry's mantle, and was trying to drop an oblique hint to him about it in Cold Days, but I don't know if he's involving himself in the actual power struggle surrounding it.
    Hmm, I think in Denton's case though it could be more that:
    A) Harry absolutely believes in some form of final judgement (hard not to when you know angels and demons exist)
    B) Harry is relentless at taking down bad guys (and has smashed down worse than Denton)

    And so Denton interprets it as "Harry will send me directly to hell" since soulgazes require interpretation.

    Also, first two books are probably a bad idea to read too much into.

    But Harry is totally more important than he knows or realizes, yes.

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  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Registered User regular
    Since we are all speculating on stuff. I got a thing that has always bugged me.
    Going off memory right now but

    In one of the books, dresden gets a ruby or whatever that helps with finding paths through the nevernever to world trot faster.

    It was his mothers at some point.

    When he gets it, he is told that he would pay a price if he accepted/used it.

    His mothers price was something like headaches for her entire life or something like that.

    Anyways im 90% sure we have not explicitly seen what price he paid yet, unless it was subtext of him not sleeping much anymore?

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Might want to hide those spoilers, @Nyysjan ...

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Nogs wrote: »
    Since we are all speculating on stuff. I got a thing that has always bugged me.
    Going off memory right now but

    In one of the books, dresden gets a ruby or whatever that helps with finding paths through the nevernever to world trot faster.

    It was his mothers at some point.

    When he gets it, he is told that he would pay a price if he accepted/used it.

    His mothers price was something like headaches for her entire life or something like that.

    Anyways im 90% sure we have not explicitly seen what price he paid yet, unless it was subtext of him not sleeping much anymore?

    Sort of hard to deconvolve the effects with all the other shit that happened around the same time

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  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Nogs wrote: »
    Since we are all speculating on stuff. I got a thing that has always bugged me.
    Going off memory right now but

    In one of the books, dresden gets a ruby or whatever that helps with finding paths through the nevernever to world trot faster.

    It was his mothers at some point.

    When he gets it, he is told that he would pay a price if he accepted/used it.

    His mothers price was something like headaches for her entire life or something like that.

    Anyways im 90% sure we have not explicitly seen what price he paid yet, unless it was subtext of him not sleeping much anymore?

    Spoilers All
    Assuming that the cost isn't some sort of mystical thing and something that could actually be tracked to the knowledge/gem, then no, we haven't actually seen what it is.

    It's possible it's something dumb like "no one will ever truly love him" that is just going to come up as a plot point later, but I'm betting it's something subtle that we'll come back and go "hmm, yeah okay, I see it".

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  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    One of the top moments for me...
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Harry would be hundred times dead if not for ton of incidental (or specifically engineered) power ups he has from his heritage, time of birth, allies his mom made (Lea), his grandpa taking him under his wing after he ran away from his previous master...
    It's like he was engineered (and, really, he kinda was) to become this powerful badass from the start.

    It's one of the things i like least about him (apart from women issues) as a character.
    He is special, he was made to be special, and i kinda dislike the chosen one protagonists, their status always feels like it cheapens their acchievements.
    That said, Harry is a special hero done pretty well, so it's hardly a major issue.

    I can put up with special one characters if they put in the work. Harry's life might have been steered, but he's put in the work to be powerful, taken the beatings and learned the lessons his own way. Nothing has been given to him on a silver platter and that lets me really keep enjoying it.

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  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    One of the top moments for me...
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Harry would be hundred times dead if not for ton of incidental (or specifically engineered) power ups he has from his heritage, time of birth, allies his mom made (Lea), his grandpa taking him under his wing after he ran away from his previous master...
    It's like he was engineered (and, really, he kinda was) to become this powerful badass from the start.

    It's one of the things i like least about him (apart from women issues) as a character.
    He is special, he was made to be special, and i kinda dislike the chosen one protagonists, their status always feels like it cheapens their acchievements.
    That said, Harry is a special hero done pretty well, so it's hardly a major issue.

    I can put up with special one characters if they put in the work. Harry's life might have been steered, but he's put in the work to be powerful, taken the beatings and learned the lessons his own way. Nothing has been given to him on a silver platter and that lets me really keep enjoying it.
    As i said, Harry is a special hero done pretty well, so it's hardly a major issue.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    KetBra wrote: »
    Man, Changes and Ghost Story sure is a lot, even knowing what's going to happen going in

    Full Series Spoilers
    Honestly, Molly's whole arc from Changes on makes me real sad

    Just finished Cold Case (read for the first time)
    Man that just fuckin sucks. I knew some of what happened in that story going in, but I wasn't exactly expecting a Col. Jessep speech from Mab. Blech

    KetBra on
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    I can put up with special one characters if they put in the work. Harry's life might have been steered, but he's put in the work to be powerful, taken the beatings and learned the lessons his own way. Nothing has been given to him on a silver platter and that lets me really keep enjoying it.

    It's happened from time to time. The allies his mother set up (like Lea), the allies his grandfather bought in (the Grey Council) and Mab's been trying to turn him into the Winter Knight since their first encounter or before. He didn't really need to do much to get those benefits. Then there's Murphy, they had a rough patch in the early novels but after that it was smooth sailing.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Well, I mean, he didn't get those from just existing. He earned (for a given value of "earned") them through his actions and being the person he is outside of any special birthright (for the most part). That and you can't hold family helping him out against him. That's not really special. He's worked or paid for anything special about him.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    'Cept for bein' a powerful wizard in the first place.

    Evidently some wizards are just born "stronger" than others.

    For instance, despite being more "powerful" than Molly, he's arguably less talented.

    Molly can't match Dresden's fireballs because... she just can't?

    But Dresden can't match Molly's veils because... what? Illusion magic is more a matter of attention to detail and focus than raw power. Dresden can't do it because, frankly, he's kinda sloppy. Even his destructive and defensive magic requires tools like his blasting rod or shield bracelet to maintain control.

    RT800 on
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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well, I mean, he didn't get those from just existing. He earned (for a given value of "earned") them through his actions and being the person he is outside of any special birthright (for the most part). That and you can't hold family helping him out against him. That's not really special. He's worked or paid for anything special about him.

    Dresden didn't earn shit for those specific alliances, they were given to him by birth and having a semblance of not being a complete fuck up with family relations. His entire alliance network falls apart without the backing of Mab, his mother and grandfather - which got given to him on a silver platter. With Mab he did everything in his power to burn that bridge but Mab wanted him that badly it didn't matter.

    edit: I'm saying he didn't "earn" their allegiance in the first place. Mab he got by being "special" genetically not by any actual deed he actually did before that. Those he didn't need to work or paid for that other than being born, and his mother seems to have set him up with a magic genetic lottery which he had no control over. That was from her hard work, not his.

    Harry Dresden on
    Nyysjan
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited November 2018
    Well, yeah. But that's like anything else (meta)physical in nature. And getting kind of nit picky. Of course he's a decent wizard. Otherwise this be Rivers of London!

    Later series spoilers:
    And I kind of think that doesn't even apply in that specific comparison anymore. Molly has some juice now.

    And if he was a Warlock they'd all still be around? I think we're stretching things into special when the only real thing is him
    being born just right to fight Outsiders.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well, yeah. But that's like anything else (meta)physical in nature. And getting kind of nit picky. Of course he's a decent wizard. Otherwise this be Rivers of London!

    Later series spoilers:
    And I kind of think that doesn't even apply in that specific comparison anymore. Molly has some juice now.

    And if he was a Warlock they'd all still be around? I think we're stretching things into special when the only real thing is him
    being born just right to fight Outsiders.
    Harry is more than just a decent wizard, he is one of the most powerful wizards of his generation, he won the genetic lottery, and that lottery was fixed in his favor.

    If not his allies, Harry quite possibly would have remained a warlock, and been executed.
    The point about Harry being special is not to deny that he has done pretty great things with all the gifts he was given, but to point out that, nobody else has those gifts.
    It's the priviledge argument all over again, Harry having to struggle does not negate the fact the most people would not get even the change to struggle in the first place.

    Molly
    Molly having juice now is not about her being born special, but having gained powers later, having gone through horrible struggles first to be deemed worthy.
    Harry has proven himself pretty worthy of his gifts, but those gifts came first.

    Also Molly, Cold Case (not read it, working from spoilers, and spoilers make me not want to read it at all)
    I am a fan of the 3 stages of woman archetype, 3 fates, norns, maiden, mother and the crone, future, present, past, etc...
    But i am not fan of the idea that the maiden has to remain chaste, or that virginity/purity is somehow special.
    And only reason that idea should ever come up in a story, is so that it can be pointed out to be the fucking stupid idea that it is.

    And while i have not read the story in question, i have read spoilers, and none of those have mentioned anything that would make me less leery of it seemingly coming up.

  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Favorite word introduced to me by Jim Butcher - Vajazzled.

    If a movement doesn't have someone that can sit down opposite those in a position of power and strike a deal, how can that movement achieve success?
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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well, yeah. But that's like anything else (meta)physical in nature. And getting kind of nit picky. Of course he's a decent wizard. Otherwise this be Rivers of London!

    Later series spoilers:
    And I kind of think that doesn't even apply in that specific comparison anymore. Molly has some juice now.

    And if he was a Warlock they'd all still be around? I think we're stretching things into special when the only real thing is him
    being born just right to fight Outsiders.
    Molly has some juice now at literally the cost of her free will

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    I think we'll explore the limits of that, actually:
    She's more hemmed in then Dresden and her will is gone in certain areas, but she's not totally a slave to Winter quite yet. She refuses to leave Carlos alone, is compared to Harry in the stubborn department. Of course, is then forced to do what her post requires, but then, can't she reject the mantle if she really wanted to? No? I forget. Dresden's leaves if he breaks a law, the other mantles may be harder to ditch.

    In an ideal outcome she'd come out of this with a Winter related power boost minus the mantle itself, but that be too not bad and both of them getting out from under Winter seems unlikely.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I think we'll explore the limits of that, actually:
    She's more hemmed in then Dresden and her will is gone in certain areas, but she's not totally a slave to Winter quite yet. She refuses to leave Carlos alone, is compared to Harry in the stubborn department. Of course, is then forced to do what her post requires, but then, can't she reject the mantle if she really wanted to? No? I forget. Dresden's leaves if he breaks a law, the other mantles may be harder to ditch.

    In an ideal outcome she'd come out of this with a Winter related power boost minus the mantle itself, but that be too not bad and both of them getting out from under Winter seems unlikely.

    Yeah, after like a week on the job. By the time of Skin game
    She's calling abducting kids to act as child soldiers in an infinite war necessary work. Which like, cool cool, not at all very inhuman there

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  • Last SonLast Son Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I think we'll explore the limits of that, actually:
    She's more hemmed in then Dresden and her will is gone in certain areas, but she's not totally a slave to Winter quite yet. She refuses to leave Carlos alone, is compared to Harry in the stubborn department. Of course, is then forced to do what her post requires, but then, can't she reject the mantle if she really wanted to? No? I forget. Dresden's leaves if he breaks a law, the other mantles may be harder to ditch.

    In an ideal outcome she'd come out of this with a Winter related power boost minus the mantle itself, but that be too not bad and both of them getting out from under Winter seems unlikely.

    Yeah, after like a week on the job. By the time of Skin game
    She's calling abducting kids to act as child soldiers in an infinite war necessary work. Which like, cool cool, not at all very inhuman there
    I mean, it is necessary. Without winter's army reality is destroyed.

    jdarksunMoridin889Elvenshae38thDoe
  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Last Son wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I think we'll explore the limits of that, actually:
    She's more hemmed in then Dresden and her will is gone in certain areas, but she's not totally a slave to Winter quite yet. She refuses to leave Carlos alone, is compared to Harry in the stubborn department. Of course, is then forced to do what her post requires, but then, can't she reject the mantle if she really wanted to? No? I forget. Dresden's leaves if he breaks a law, the other mantles may be harder to ditch.

    In an ideal outcome she'd come out of this with a Winter related power boost minus the mantle itself, but that be too not bad and both of them getting out from under Winter seems unlikely.

    Yeah, after like a week on the job. By the time of Skin game
    She's calling abducting kids to act as child soldiers in an infinite war necessary work. Which like, cool cool, not at all very inhuman there
    I mean, it is necessary. Without winter's army reality is destroyed.

    Yes, it's a very fey way to answer the question of whether she liked her work.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Last Son wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    I think we'll explore the limits of that, actually:
    She's more hemmed in then Dresden and her will is gone in certain areas, but she's not totally a slave to Winter quite yet. She refuses to leave Carlos alone, is compared to Harry in the stubborn department. Of course, is then forced to do what her post requires, but then, can't she reject the mantle if she really wanted to? No? I forget. Dresden's leaves if he breaks a law, the other mantles may be harder to ditch.

    In an ideal outcome she'd come out of this with a Winter related power boost minus the mantle itself, but that be too not bad and both of them getting out from under Winter seems unlikely.

    Yeah, after like a week on the job. By the time of Skin game
    She's calling abducting kids to act as child soldiers in an infinite war necessary work. Which like, cool cool, not at all very inhuman there
    I mean, it is necessary. Without winter's army reality is destroyed.

    Does Molly know that at the beginning of Cold Case though?
    I wasn't sure how much knowledge the Mantle would have bestowed on her in that regards.
    I mean, it didn't pass along the whole celibacy thing, it may have neglected to mention that whole "Feeding an army of winter fey into an infinite meat grinder battle for the protection of all reality" thing as well.

    I mean, I would have thought that would be covered in the new employee orientation, but it seems Winter may have different HR standards than most.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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