While i love Dresden Files as a series, and find it one of the few long running series that just keep getting better by the book (Ghost Story was great, weird, but great).
The series does have it's issues.
Plots tend to be rather contrived in places (getting better as series goes on, but the first books were pretty horrible with the potions that just happened to be the ones Harry would need), and the technology issues seem sometimes inconsistent (and is there mainly because Butcher does not want to write around cellphones).
World building is mostly awesome, but White God and Uriel seem out of place with the rest of the Dresdenverse (either it's a mystery left intentionally vague, a future plot point, or Christianity just happens to be the one (closest to) true religion).
I'd actually prefer if he just came out and admitted that last one, instead of seemingly smuggling it in through the backdoor, i can read fiction based on (somewhat) Christian cosmology, i just get annoyed when it is assumed true as a baseline in a fantasy novel where other gods play a major part.
And Harry, as entertaining as he is, can come of (at least to me) as pretty annoying at times.
His sexism, constant uncommunication with people, lack of planning/preparing, and self martyrdom (Michael giving him the speech in Skin Game about hubrish was fucking awesome).
As far as god goes.
I thought they were pretty explicitly going with all religions are true but riffing off the American Gods rules where belief = power so the abrahamic "God" would be the most powerful being on the planet in modernity.
Eh. Christianity isn't an order of magnitude bigger than the next two religions and that's assuming you consider it all one thing.
Dresdenverse uses an mostly catholic view with the Angels being named and distinct beings and no way 100% or even 50% of "Christians" believe that.
I'd be down for some variation of that where Harry runs into say a descendant of the prophet in the Sunni tradition who packs a huge spiritual wallop.
Christianity, and especially Catholic versions of it, is huge in Chicago where the story is set. If the story were set in the middle east you'd see a lot bigger impact from the Islamic side of the abrahamic religions.
And I don't buy that belief is what gives "gods" their power, or at least it's far from the whole picture. Remember, one of the Knights of the Cross is an Agnostic bordering on Atheist.
Knights o the Cross
The version of Christianity depicted in the book kinda skips over several major points and, for example, Michael's insistence that Harry is cool with God despite like never seeking any sacraments is a fairly liberal version of it. That version would be fine with Sasha not believing because of how he acts.
I agree that I don't think it directly equates that believers equal power. It certainly doesn't seem to be current believers since Hades and Odin were both fairly powerful in modern times. There is a bit of a chicken and egg problem with the whole question of where the gods come from.
It's entirely possible that the deities of other religions exist alongside those of the Abrahamic faiths, and we just never encounter them because they've got their own problems elsewhere.
It is, though the Knights at least feel they're responsible for covering the whole world. Granted the threats we see them face are their own special flavor of horrible bad guys.
The threats the Knights are supposed to face are distinctly tied to Christianity too, as are their weapons.
I was under the impression that every time Michael teamed up with Dresden against anything non-Denarian, he was doing so at tremendous risk to himself (well, even more tremendous since he didn't have the full backing of the White God behind him) and only out of a sense of obligation to Dresden.
Makes me wonder if there are other knights (or local equivalents) devoted to other religions who face their own demons, but don't cross paths with Dresden since he tends to stick close to home.
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
edited May 2017
I haven't read most of the books since they came out, but I recall getting the impression that the belief=power concept only applies to certain beings. The Oblivion War shows where that rule applies, while the White Council's practice of mass-producing guides for certain power-granting rituals in order to run the tap dry, as it were, demonstrates that there are exceptions. I always figured that the White God was just an exception that happens to be crazy powerful.
WG is also called "The Almighty" at times, but i can't remember for the life of me if Uriel or other non humans use the term, or if it was just humans who either might just not know (Michael, that priest guy) or might be sarcastic (Harry), instead of it being a statement of fact (and it might just be an overblown title if Uriel uses it).
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.
The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.
The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.
I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
Plenty of stories only have XYZ and don't mention ABC and we're left to make whatever assumptions we choose. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the WG is THE God, maybe he isn't. Maybe Shiva is out there, maybe not. It's not really the point of the story. It may be interesting if he goes into it, it may not. Like he says, though, is it worth the risk offending people?
This isn't about the story Butcher's making, it's about whether the world building makes sense. And it's not about if Dresden knocks into someone from those religions (though really he should have run into quite a few from the Hindu/Buddhist mythology since theres literally millions of them in numbers. He should have heard something about what they're up to or be able to keep some tabs on them from friends or whatever especially post-White Counsel.
Given how he tends to write? No, at least for now it's best for him to ignore it entirely. Which is why he should just say they don't exist in this universe. Otherwise it opens the question - where are the people?
You'd think they'd care about the Outsiders destroying the Earth/universe.
Does anyone know why The White God is called the "White" God? Is this a Dresden thing, or a Christianity thing?
IIRC making Dresden Christianity focused as it is was a big risk as well. Supposedly the readership for fantasy do not like Christianity appearing in books. If Butcher wants to do something that has zero risk offending people he's in the wrong business.
I haven't read most of the books since they came out, but I recall getting the impression that the belief=power concept only applies to certain beings. The Oblivion War shows where that rule applies, while the White Council's practice of mass-producing guides for certain power-granting rituals in order to run the tap dry, as it were, demonstrates that there are exceptions. I always figured that the White God was just an exception that happens to be crazy powerful.
I thought the implication was
that many gods simply went catatonic over the ages when people stopped believing them, which is something separate from the Oblivion War.
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
I don't think they explained it. I sort of assumed that being worshiped by the Greeks and Romans for a few centuries charged up his batteries and he's mostly been coasting on that. He doesn't seem to get out much, so his actual power draw is probably pretty low. Plus it can't hurt that Greek mythology is relatively popular as far as ancient god stories go.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
I don't think they explained it. I sort of assumed that being worshiped by the Greeks and Romans for a few centuries charged up his batteries and he's mostly been coasting on that. He doesn't seem to get out much, so his actual power draw is probably pretty low. Plus it can't hurt that Greek mythology is relatively popular as far as ancient god stories go.
We never saw him outside his realm, being in the gods own domain probably boosts their power a lot.
Spoilers for skin game
That said, for all his hype, we never really see Hades do anything that major, he had pre existing security that could be bypassed by Nic and some mortals, he summoned Dresden for a chat in a time stop (or more probably a localized space with time sped up), nothing that impressive.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
I don't think they explained it. I sort of assumed that being worshiped by the Greeks and Romans for a few centuries charged up his batteries and he's mostly been coasting on that. He doesn't seem to get out much, so his actual power draw is probably pretty low. Plus it can't hurt that Greek mythology is relatively popular as far as ancient god stories go.
We never saw him outside his realm, being in the gods own domain probably boosts their power a lot.
Spoilers for skin game
That said, for all his hype, we never really see Hades do anything that major, he had pre existing security that could be bypassed by Nic and some mortals, he summoned Dresden for a chat in a time stop (or more probably a localized space with time sped up), nothing that impressive.
We didn't see him do anything super crazy, but part of that is because he wanted them to succeed in grabbing the relics.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
I don't think they explained it. I sort of assumed that being worshiped by the Greeks and Romans for a few centuries charged up his batteries and he's mostly been coasting on that. He doesn't seem to get out much, so his actual power draw is probably pretty low. Plus it can't hurt that Greek mythology is relatively popular as far as ancient god stories go.
We never saw him outside his realm, being in the gods own domain probably boosts their power a lot.
Spoilers for skin game
That said, for all his hype, we never really see Hades do anything that major, he had pre existing security that could be bypassed by Nic and some mortals, he summoned Dresden for a chat in a time stop (or more probably a localized space with time sped up), nothing that impressive.
We didn't see him do anything super crazy, but part of that is because he wanted them to succeed in grabbing the relics.
I know, my point is that
any discussion of power levels is made very difficult when it comes to Hades because we don't know what he can do.
His feats shown are not outside the realm of what mortal magician of sufficient skill and power might be able to pull of in some form.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I was taking issue with the idea that being able to bypass his security indicated some sort of weakness. Which wasn't your point, so my bad.
Can mortals adjust time in the Nevernever? Only person I can think that did that on purpose was the Summer Lady.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I was taking issue with the idea that being able to bypass his security indicated some sort of weakness. Which wasn't your point, so my bad.
Can mortals adjust time in the Nevernever? Only person I can think that did that on purpose was the Summer Lady.
Maybe, maybe not.
But time travel is against the laws of magic, which kinda indicates it is possible.
Creating a localized area where time seems to move bazillion times faster in order to have a discussion is not really that impressive in comparison.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I was taking issue with the idea that being able to bypass his security indicated some sort of weakness. Which wasn't your point, so my bad.
Can mortals adjust time in the Nevernever? Only person I can think that did that on purpose was the Summer Lady.
Maybe, maybe not.
But time travel is against the laws of magic, which kinda indicates it is possible.
Creating a localized area where time seems to move bazillion times faster in order to have a discussion is not really that impressive in comparison.
The only person who we've seen manipulate time in the Nevernever was the Summer Lady, so it's not like we can say that doing so is not that big a deal. I also suspect that straight up time travel is probably easier to pull off than setting up a safe area that runs at a different speed than the rest of reality (this would be in the real world, since time in the Nevernever is already pretty flexible so the physics there must be more forgiving). There's an old Larry Niven story (a locked room murder mystery no less) about a guy who invented a machine that creates a bubble of accelerated time and the hyjinx that result. There are a lot of secondary issues that need to be dealt with if you want to do something like that safely, and that's not even getting into the disturbing things that would happen if your time bubble thing didn't run at a constant speed across its entire area.
There's probably a good reason that wizards haven't replaced their iceboxes with magic stasis boxes.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I was taking issue with the idea that being able to bypass his security indicated some sort of weakness. Which wasn't your point, so my bad.
Can mortals adjust time in the Nevernever? Only person I can think that did that on purpose was the Summer Lady.
Maybe, maybe not.
But time travel is against the laws of magic, which kinda indicates it is possible.
Creating a localized area where time seems to move bazillion times faster in order to have a discussion is not really that impressive in comparison.
The only person who we've seen manipulate time in the Nevernever was the Summer Lady, so it's not like we can say that doing so is not that big a deal. I also suspect that straight up time travel is probably easier to pull off than setting up a safe area that runs at a different speed than the rest of reality (this would be in the real world, since time in the Nevernever is already pretty flexible so the physics there must be more forgiving). There's an old Larry Niven story (a locked room murder mystery no less) about a guy who invented a machine that creates a bubble of accelerated time and the hyjinx that result. There are a lot of secondary issues that need to be dealt with if you want to do something like that safely, and that's not even getting into the disturbing things that would happen if your time bubble thing didn't run at a constant speed across its entire area.
There's probably a good reason that wizards haven't replaced their iceboxes with magic stasis boxes.
For the trick Hades pulled, you don't necessarily need to manipulate time, just the perception of it.
And i am not assuming this would be easy, let alone trivial, just possible through mortal magical means (like, say, trip to Pluto, technicly possible, but hard enough to make everyone go "nope, not even trying").
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
He's mentioned in the Bible. Like, a lot. Both as a term for hell and as a being. And the implication seems to be that these gods draw power from how people know of them, not from worship. Hence why Odin has Santa Clause's mantle. Mab and Titania are written into Shakespeare and even Arthurian legend.
Basically the way i see it, WG is just collecting all the mantles he can as kind of a catch-all deity, and if there's life on other, he gets appluvable ones from them to. "Singular good deity with oppositional deity? That's me. Universal creative force? Also me. Omnipotent father figure but on a computer with a self sacrificing son. Hey that's me too!"
Basically WG is the universe's metaphysical patent troll.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
It's entirely possible that the WG started out as something else altogether and took on the mantle of the WG later as another form. We know some gods have multiple mantles, and even some fae seem to have multiple identities with different powers derived from them. At least one has used the idea of different identities to play rules lawyer with it as well. It's possible Uriel and others predate existance. It's also possible Uriel is something else and just uses the word Angel because it's easier than trying to express what he really is.
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ThomamelasOnly one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered Userregular
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
It's entirely possible that the WG started out as something else altogether and took on the mantle of the WG later as another form. We know some gods have multiple mantles, and even some fae seem to have multiple identities with different powers derived from them. At least one has used the idea of different identities to play rules lawyer with it as well. It's possible Uriel and others predate existance. It's also possible Uriel is something else and just uses the word Angel because it's easier than trying to express what he really is.
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
It's entirely possible that the WG started out as something else altogether and took on the mantle of the WG later as another form. We know some gods have multiple mantles, and even some fae seem to have multiple identities with different powers derived from them. At least one has used the idea of different identities to play rules lawyer with it as well. It's possible Uriel and others predate existance. It's also possible Uriel is something else and just uses the word Angel because it's easier than trying to express what he really is.
Both reasonable possibilities.
My issue is not that WG and Uriel can't be made to fit.
But that Butcher hasn't, and i hope he would.
Because the situation as is, seems to point to Christianity as the (most) true religion in Dresdenverse, which is fine in my opinion, if he would just come out and say it.
Nyysjan on
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
edited May 2017
My impression is that Dresden files is kitchen sink mythology. Everything is in play. He doesn't spend a lot of time writing about things Harry doesn't see though.
Also what's with the White God? In Crusader Kings II if you were Pagan and swapping to a form of Christianity the flavor text says something about the white god of the Christians, I assumed it was something about turning the other cheek ( I was playing Norse). I've never heard this expression from any Christian faith I know of or in the Bible.
It is a kitchen sink, but even then you can't just throw in whatever comes into your mind without thinking about the underlying mechanics and implications.
Well, you can, but it does cause questions and weaken the coherence of the story/world.
For example, let's take
American Gods, kitchen sink mythology, but all the gods follow same rules (and there are multiple instances of same gods around),
Sandman (and the spinoff Lucifer), kitchen sink, most gods follow "powered by belief" rule, except the Christian God who is ultimately the "real" one, except there is reality outside our universe where there might be others (kinda/sorta part of DC comics universe, except when it isn't).
DC/Marvel comics, kitchen sinks, with multiple writers and editors who can't keep the rules straight.
Where does Dresdenverse fall in here?
Do all the gods follow same rules? Doesn't seem like it, but we may simply not know enough to tell.
Is Christianity ultimately the closest to truth? Seems like it, but future information might change this.
Has Butcher simply not thought things trough? My most likely guess would be this, which is why i hope he would do so in future books.
My guess is the WG and Co play a larger role in the big finale. They'll likely get fleshed out as we go.
I like the idea that the WG is playing the system and taking on many mantels.
The way the cosmic power of Uriel is portrayed this far reminds me somewhat of Simon Greens Nightside. Angels (and by extension god) are portrayed as having staggering amounts of power but they're only able to use a fraction of it when in Nightside.
It is a kitchen sink, but even then you can't just throw in whatever comes into your mind without thinking about the underlying mechanics and implications.
Well, you can, but it does cause questions and weaken the coherence of the story/world.
For example, let's take
American Gods, kitchen sink mythology, but all the gods follow same rules (and there are multiple instances of same gods around),
Sandman (and the spinoff Lucifer), kitchen sink, most gods follow "powered by belief" rule, except the Christian God who is ultimately the "real" one, except there is reality outside our universe where there might be others (kinda/sorta part of DC comics universe, except when it isn't).
DC/Marvel comics, kitchen sinks, with multiple writers and editors who can't keep the rules straight.
Where does Dresdenverse fall in here?
Do all the gods follow same rules? Doesn't seem like it, but we may simply not know enough to tell.
Is Christianity ultimately the closest to truth? Seems like it, but future information might change this.
Has Butcher simply not thought things trough? My most likely guess would be this, which is why i hope he would do so in future books.
In one of the books Dresden has a similar issue with The White God mythos, and I think he says they may be from somewhere else, not earth centric, which explains how they get around certain traits exhibited by other deity class beings from the local neighborhood
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
He's mentioned in the Bible. Like, a lot. Both as a term for hell and as a being. And the implication seems to be that these gods draw power from how people know of them, not from worship. Hence why Odin has Santa Clause's mantle. Mab and Titania are written into Shakespeare and even Arthurian legend.
Fascinating. It weird how this never translates to Christianity in popular culture, or a common belief shared that outsiders know about from other vectors. Is the Hades realm a separate "hell" to the Christian hell we know of? And is "hell" merely about the Greek underworld in general, or Tartarus?
Exactly, but he'd get more juice from having a mantle akin to the Grim Reaper than Hades.
My guess is the WG and Co play a larger role in the big finale. They'll likely get fleshed out as we go.
I like the idea that the WG is playing the system and taking on many mantels.
The way the cosmic power of Uriel is portrayed this far reminds me somewhat of Simon Greens Nightside. Angels (and by extension god) are portrayed as having staggering amounts of power but they're only able to use a fraction of it when in Nightside.
This is a theory inside and outside the Dresden 'verse, not an actual thing. I doubt we'd get confirmation that the White God is totes Zeus in disguise, that'd piss off too many Christian readers.
We need a new book. Even if God is in it celebrating Christmas. Come on, Butcher!
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
I think it's less damned of he does and damned if he doesn't, and more damned if he waffles about.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
We've got swords that incorporate the nails being used to fight fallen angels that are tied to the thirty pieces of silver, and Skin Game dialed it up a few notches by throwing all of those into a heist to grab all the other relics of the crucifixion. That section of the story is so maximum Jesus-centric that I don't think you could easily add elements that would make it more generically Abrahamic in form.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
He's mentioned in the Bible. Like, a lot. Both as a term for hell and as a being. And the implication seems to be that these gods draw power from how people know of them, not from worship. Hence why Odin has Santa Clause's mantle. Mab and Titania are written into Shakespeare and even Arthurian legend.
Fascinating. It weird how this never translates to Christianity in popular culture, or a common belief shared that outsiders know about from other vectors. Is the Hades realm a separate "hell" to the Christian hell we know of? And is "hell" merely about the Greek underworld in general, or Tartarus?
Varies from denomination to denomination. One of the languages the bible was written in originally was Greek and rather than invent a word for hell they used the greek word for Hades. Over time as the bibles were codified and made cannon the usage evolved into different things. In some denominations Hades became the place that souls entered before judgement, sometimes it's a part of hell, sometimes it's just used as a synonym for all of hell, and sometimes it's an intermediary state between death and the final resurrection.
Tartarus shows up as well in some translations of the bible. Specifically as the place where god casts the rebellious angels.
If we're talking christianity in popular culture, usually very little of it ever shows up. You mostly just get the highlight reel of it, usually revolving around Jesus, Satan, or Moses.
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.
The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.
I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.
There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.
Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.
The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.
I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.
There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.
Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
I think that's a bit of a stretch.
Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.
edit-
Now that i think about it, the semi confirmation that Plagues of egypt happened, also raise number of questions.
How?
There would have been extremely few worshippers of WG back then, while Egyptian Pantheon would have been at the height of its power, at the center of their worship.
How did WG kick asses of Egyptian gods so thoroughly as was done in Exodus?
edit 2: The addening-
Also, Uriel mentions he was fighting wars when earth was just a cloud of expanding gas.
So unless other the gods are billions of years old, there is more going on than just regular "faith shapes reality" thing going on with Uriel and WG.
As pointed out before the 'faith is power' is kind of a fan theory being pulled from 1 set of beings to be universal. When there's plenty to indicate that there's more to it, yeah.
I doubt we'll ever get into where gods come from, but who knows.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
welp I guess I'm re-reading the series for the third time this year.
Anyone read the short story collection based around Molly that came out earlier this year/late last year?
welp I guess I'm re-reading the series for the third time this year.
Anyone read the short story collection based around Molly that came out earlier this year/late last year?
Any good?
Do you mean Shadowed Souls? If so, I've got it.
Only one story in the book is about Molly (or the Dresden setting in general). Pretty good though.
Molly is sent on her first mission as The Winter Lady, to find out why a group of winter fey have been late on paying their tribute to Mab. A responsibility her predecessor had been pretty freely ignoring.
Ramirez is also in the area on Wizard Business and they wind up working together to take down an cult worshiping a well known betentacled outsider, who's currently napping beneath the ocean (thanks a lot, Mr. Lovecraft).
Good story, really illustrates the cost of taking on a Mantle.
Posts
The threats the Knights are supposed to face are distinctly tied to Christianity too, as are their weapons.
I was under the impression that every time Michael teamed up with Dresden against anything non-Denarian, he was doing so at tremendous risk to himself (well, even more tremendous since he didn't have the full backing of the White God behind him) and only out of a sense of obligation to Dresden.
Makes me wonder if there are other knights (or local equivalents) devoted to other religions who face their own demons, but don't cross paths with Dresden since he tends to stick close to home.
In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
And that worked.
It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?
Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.
Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.
The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.
He seems to be damned if he does or doesn't, but what he's done so far has worked pretty well.
And the excuse of "not wanting to offend other religions" kinda sidesteps that if people cared enough about his books depictions of religion, he is almost certainly in danger of offending Jews, Muslims, and about a billion Christians for getting it "wrong".
Just, nail down your cosmology and stop waffling.
This isn't about the story Butcher's making, it's about whether the world building makes sense. And it's not about if Dresden knocks into someone from those religions (though really he should have run into quite a few from the Hindu/Buddhist mythology since theres literally millions of them in numbers. He should have heard something about what they're up to or be able to keep some tabs on them from friends or whatever especially post-White Counsel.
Given how he tends to write? No, at least for now it's best for him to ignore it entirely. Which is why he should just say they don't exist in this universe. Otherwise it opens the question - where are the people?
Does anyone know why The White God is called the "White" God? Is this a Dresden thing, or a Christianity thing?
IIRC making Dresden Christianity focused as it is was a big risk as well. Supposedly the readership for fantasy do not like Christianity appearing in books. If Butcher wants to do something that has zero risk offending people he's in the wrong business.
I thought the implication was
*ahem*
The problem (though problem is a really strong word for the situation) with the swords and Knights and God is that right now everything is tied very tightly to the crucifixion.
A bigger issue is the power imbalance. An entity like Hades has no small amount of power, but the stories that involve the Knights have a lot of Just As Planned. Ain't nothing more powerful than weaponized coincidence and personally I feel that it decreases the tension in those stories since I have a much stronger feel that a near literal deus ex machina will sort things out at the end.
Been a while since I read the series did they explain why Hades is so powerful? Odin gets the Santa Claus free pass, but how is the universe funneling power to a god whose less known then the Grim Reaper? Having him appear in some odd movies and tv shows doesn't count for that.
I don't think they explained it. I sort of assumed that being worshiped by the Greeks and Romans for a few centuries charged up his batteries and he's mostly been coasting on that. He doesn't seem to get out much, so his actual power draw is probably pretty low. Plus it can't hurt that Greek mythology is relatively popular as far as ancient god stories go.
Spoilers for skin game
I know, my point is that
His feats shown are not outside the realm of what mortal magician of sufficient skill and power might be able to pull of in some form.
Can mortals adjust time in the Nevernever? Only person I can think that did that on purpose was the Summer Lady.
But time travel is against the laws of magic, which kinda indicates it is possible.
Creating a localized area where time seems to move bazillion times faster in order to have a discussion is not really that impressive in comparison.
The only person who we've seen manipulate time in the Nevernever was the Summer Lady, so it's not like we can say that doing so is not that big a deal. I also suspect that straight up time travel is probably easier to pull off than setting up a safe area that runs at a different speed than the rest of reality (this would be in the real world, since time in the Nevernever is already pretty flexible so the physics there must be more forgiving). There's an old Larry Niven story (a locked room murder mystery no less) about a guy who invented a machine that creates a bubble of accelerated time and the hyjinx that result. There are a lot of secondary issues that need to be dealt with if you want to do something like that safely, and that's not even getting into the disturbing things that would happen if your time bubble thing didn't run at a constant speed across its entire area.
There's probably a good reason that wizards haven't replaced their iceboxes with magic stasis boxes.
And i am not assuming this would be easy, let alone trivial, just possible through mortal magical means (like, say, trip to Pluto, technicly possible, but hard enough to make everyone go "nope, not even trying").
He's mentioned in the Bible. Like, a lot. Both as a term for hell and as a being. And the implication seems to be that these gods draw power from how people know of them, not from worship. Hence why Odin has Santa Clause's mantle. Mab and Titania are written into Shakespeare and even Arthurian legend.
Basically WG is the universe's metaphysical patent troll.
It's entirely possible that the WG started out as something else altogether and took on the mantle of the WG later as another form. We know some gods have multiple mantles, and even some fae seem to have multiple identities with different powers derived from them. At least one has used the idea of different identities to play rules lawyer with it as well. It's possible Uriel and others predate existance. It's also possible Uriel is something else and just uses the word Angel because it's easier than trying to express what he really is.
It's entirely possible that the WG started out as something else altogether and took on the mantle of the WG later as another form. We know some gods have multiple mantles, and even some fae seem to have multiple identities with different powers derived from them. At least one has used the idea of different identities to play rules lawyer with it as well. It's possible Uriel and others predate existance. It's also possible Uriel is something else and just uses the word Angel because it's easier than trying to express what he really is.
My issue is not that WG and Uriel can't be made to fit.
But that Butcher hasn't, and i hope he would.
Because the situation as is, seems to point to Christianity as the (most) true religion in Dresdenverse, which is fine in my opinion, if he would just come out and say it.
Also what's with the White God? In Crusader Kings II if you were Pagan and swapping to a form of Christianity the flavor text says something about the white god of the Christians, I assumed it was something about turning the other cheek ( I was playing Norse). I've never heard this expression from any Christian faith I know of or in the Bible.
Well, you can, but it does cause questions and weaken the coherence of the story/world.
For example, let's take
American Gods, kitchen sink mythology, but all the gods follow same rules (and there are multiple instances of same gods around),
Sandman (and the spinoff Lucifer), kitchen sink, most gods follow "powered by belief" rule, except the Christian God who is ultimately the "real" one, except there is reality outside our universe where there might be others (kinda/sorta part of DC comics universe, except when it isn't).
DC/Marvel comics, kitchen sinks, with multiple writers and editors who can't keep the rules straight.
Where does Dresdenverse fall in here?
Do all the gods follow same rules? Doesn't seem like it, but we may simply not know enough to tell.
Is Christianity ultimately the closest to truth? Seems like it, but future information might change this.
Has Butcher simply not thought things trough? My most likely guess would be this, which is why i hope he would do so in future books.
I like the idea that the WG is playing the system and taking on many mantels.
The way the cosmic power of Uriel is portrayed this far reminds me somewhat of Simon Greens Nightside. Angels (and by extension god) are portrayed as having staggering amounts of power but they're only able to use a fraction of it when in Nightside.
In one of the books Dresden has a similar issue with The White God mythos, and I think he says they may be from somewhere else, not earth centric, which explains how they get around certain traits exhibited by other deity class beings from the local neighborhood
Fascinating. It weird how this never translates to Christianity in popular culture, or a common belief shared that outsiders know about from other vectors. Is the Hades realm a separate "hell" to the Christian hell we know of? And is "hell" merely about the Greek underworld in general, or Tartarus?
Exactly, but he'd get more juice from having a mantle akin to the Grim Reaper than Hades.
This is a theory inside and outside the Dresden 'verse, not an actual thing. I doubt we'd get confirmation that the White God is totes Zeus in disguise, that'd piss off too many Christian readers.
Varies from denomination to denomination. One of the languages the bible was written in originally was Greek and rather than invent a word for hell they used the greek word for Hades. Over time as the bibles were codified and made cannon the usage evolved into different things. In some denominations Hades became the place that souls entered before judgement, sometimes it's a part of hell, sometimes it's just used as a synonym for all of hell, and sometimes it's an intermediary state between death and the final resurrection.
Tartarus shows up as well in some translations of the bible. Specifically as the place where god casts the rebellious angels.
If we're talking christianity in popular culture, usually very little of it ever shows up. You mostly just get the highlight reel of it, usually revolving around Jesus, Satan, or Moses.
There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.
Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.
edit-
Now that i think about it, the semi confirmation that Plagues of egypt happened, also raise number of questions.
How?
There would have been extremely few worshippers of WG back then, while Egyptian Pantheon would have been at the height of its power, at the center of their worship.
How did WG kick asses of Egyptian gods so thoroughly as was done in Exodus?
edit 2: The addening-
Also, Uriel mentions he was fighting wars when earth was just a cloud of expanding gas.
So unless other the gods are billions of years old, there is more going on than just regular "faith shapes reality" thing going on with Uriel and WG.
Where do gods come from anyway?
I doubt we'll ever get into where gods come from, but who knows.
Anyone read the short story collection based around Molly that came out earlier this year/late last year?
Any good?
Do you mean Shadowed Souls? If so, I've got it.
Only one story in the book is about Molly (or the Dresden setting in general). Pretty good though.
Ramirez is also in the area on Wizard Business and they wind up working together to take down an cult worshiping a well known betentacled outsider, who's currently napping beneath the ocean (thanks a lot, Mr. Lovecraft).