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As cool as winter, as hot as summer[Harry Dresden]-Battle Grounds is out!

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  • TallahasseerielTallahasseeriel Registered User regular
    I got my copy! Hooray

    I'm probably gonna read the whole thing tonight!
    it feels a little thin?

  • PenumbraPenumbra Registered User regular
    Just finished it. And now I’m back to waiting for the next entry... Fuck.

    Switch Friend Code: 6359-7575-9391
    destroyah87TuminjdarksunamateurhourElvenshaekime
  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    At least this time we only have to wait until September. After that, who knows?

    I’m all the way up to Ch.19 and I’m wondering how he’s going to pull this off. So many things built up and only half the book left to go.

    Penumbra
  • MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Just finished. I agree with earlier posters that this is basically Part 1 of a two-parter. I'd also wager it's the beginning of the last act of the series before the promised apocalyptic trilogy.

    Butcher certainly remembers how to craft holy shit moments.

    Theories:
    1. Everything is connected. Thomas was threatened by the same people who are behind protogod lady/outsider surge, who are the same people who want Harry out of the White Council.

    2. Protogod lady was a distraction for something more important. It happens too close to the chapter literally about misdirection and, as Marcone points out, there was nothing stopping her from vaporizing everyone in that room. Instead she postured.

    3. McCoy dies next book. Harry's forced to break one or more Laws of Magic to stop protogod, and he uses the Blackstaff to do it. It'll turn out the Blackstaff has a bonding mechanism like other artifacts in the series, and Harry is now The Blackstaff. So, instead of getting kicked out, Harry is now on the Senior Council. That's exactly the kind of twist the series has pulled before--Harry wins, ends up stronger, but gains a whole new set of problems and responsibility he doesn't want.

    4. They save Thomas by destroying the demon within him. How? They give him Amoracchius. I know this has been a longstanding theory, and I think he just laid the groundwork for it. This gets him out from under the svartavles
    since, technically, Thomas Raith as they knew him would no longer exist.

    5. Butcher might pull the trigger on the masquerade collapsing--they save Chicago, but the cat's out of the bag as far as the supernatural goes.

    Elvenshae
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Ten to one Justine is a traitor.

    jdarksunDevoutlyApatheticKetBraEvilOtakuWACriminalkime
  • cckerberoscckerberos Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    Ten to one Justine is a traitor.
    Yeah, that seems to be the popular theory on the Dresden subreddit as well.

  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    edited July 2020
    Extremely depressing speculation I realised in chapter 2
    so Maggie's living in Molly's place now, right?

    That... seems ill fated

    KetBra on
    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • destroyah87destroyah87 Registered User regular
    Book Finished. Ok, now I need the next one.

    steam_sig.png
    NitsuaPenumbrajdarksunDiplominatorkime
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Just finished chapter 9.
    Maggie relaying the good things Michael says about Harry...I'm not crying, you're crying.

    I have a theory that Harry has been losing time and just hasn't noticed it. I feel confident that the thing with the disappearing kettle was an instance where he had some sort of secret conversation with Thomas that we aren't privy to yet.

    Also McCoy was for sure angry that Maggie was there because he already knew the place was gonna be attacked. He was trying to warn Harry, but couldn't be too explicit because he knew the Svartalves would overhear.

  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Just finished. I agree with earlier posters that this is basically Part 1 of a two-parter. I'd also wager it's the beginning of the last act of the series before the promised apocalyptic trilogy.

    Butcher certainly remembers how to craft holy shit moments.

    Theories:
    1. Everything is connected. Thomas was threatened by the same people who are behind protogod lady/outsider surge, who are the same people who want Harry out of the White Council.

    2. Protogod lady was a distraction for something more important. It happens too close to the chapter literally about misdirection and, as Marcone points out, there was nothing stopping her from vaporizing everyone in that room. Instead she postured.

    3. McCoy dies next book. Harry's forced to break one or more Laws of Magic to stop protogod, and he uses the Blackstaff to do it. It'll turn out the Blackstaff has a bonding mechanism like other artifacts in the series, and Harry is now The Blackstaff. So, instead of getting kicked out, Harry is now on the Senior Council. That's exactly the kind of twist the series has pulled before--Harry wins, ends up stronger, but gains a whole new set of problems and responsibility he doesn't want.

    4. They save Thomas by destroying the demon within him. How? They give him Amoracchius. I know this has been a longstanding theory, and I think he just laid the groundwork for it. This gets him out from under the svartavles
    since, technically, Thomas Raith as they knew him would no longer exist.

    5. Butcher might pull the trigger on the masquerade collapsing--they save Chicago, but the cat's out of the bag as far as the supernatural goes.

    Speculation on your speculation

    2. The Eye of Balor is also probably not too easy to use. Don't think she has the juice to kill all of them and EMP the city without a sacrifice play. And they won't have anyone else to wield the eye.

    4.Butters has a sword that cuts monsters but not men. Cut the demon out of the man?

    RingoElvenshaeTofystedethkime
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I'm up to Chapter 25 and it's good, but I've noticed that it's doing the thing where
    Major event happens and then Dresden spends the next X chapters hoofing around to talk to all the players about what happened. It's not bad and I enjoy the writing and whatnot, but it kind of makes the first 20% or so of the book a mite predictable.

    Other things, the conflict with Ebenezar seems a tad forced. There's bad blood and history between him and the White Court, but he knows that Harry and Thomas are friends so his immediate turn to 'fuck that guy' comes off as ham fisted. I'm also not exactly grasping the Outsider situation at the moment. On the one hand you have near the full might of the Winter Fae fighting to keep them out at the crystal gates, on the other it seems like they can be summoned in like any other rando critter. I guess it might take more mojo or some crazy sacrificial rite, but it undercuts that eternal standoff thing a bit if they can be brought in to the real world like that. It was introduced with the first appearance of He Who Walks Behind (or at least the revelation that that critter was an Outsider), but that was kind of a one-off from a while ago and since then I had assumed that all the Outsiders that showed up had managed to wrangle their way past the gates by some super sneaky effort on their part.
    [/list]

    I do like that Dresden seems to be communicating with people a bit better these days, and actually engaging his brain a bit before he talks. Running his mouth is his thing, but there were a few bits in the more recent books where some of the stuff he said was just a little too stupid.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • RingoRingo He/Him Bury me at Lone Tree DenRegistered User regular
    This was definitely a book. And I have read it.

    Thoughts on Peace Talks in spoiler
    The Bad:
    One tiny scene with Bonnie. Very disappointing.

    Molly's thing is going to be a whole thing. Ugh, hard pass.

    Compounding the description of Lara Lust with Winter Lust again and again and again.... and again. Why the fuck? Somehow Lara doesn't hit him with the come hither in the final confrontation which saved yet another round of that but it doesn't make a goddamn lick of sense, especially when she was captive. Also while it's pretty common throughout the series, describing some aspect of Harry (such as the Winter Lust) every time as if the reader hadn't read the previous chapter is exhausting, and it got on my nerves this time.

    Harry and Murphy think Rudolph is working for Marcone? When they know Rudolph was being manipulated in connection with the Red Court during Changes? Meh

    Conjuritis

    No Bob

    "Can't tell you about the Starborn". Harry have you not bothered to do any research in the five years since Turn Coat? Also the Starborn must not be that special. Morgan and the Merlin tried several times to get Dresden killed. It would be rather short sighted of them if Harry Mattered

    Also Harry goes all the way to the Outer Gates to learn about Nemesis, nobody bothers to tell him he's immune?

    Dresden swore by his power to the Gatekeeper back in Turncoat, but he'd rather just blow off his Warden team than work with them. Apparently he thinks he can take them so he doesn't care

    Butcher's #MeToo moment was just as clumsy as the one about homosexuality in Turncoat. Again, "at least it's in there" is the best reaction I can muster

    The reverse of that is saying that HP Lovecraft knew what he was talking about. What he was talking about was being a purely bigoted racist, Butcher you dolt. Not a great look if you want to throw out LOVECRAFT WAS RIGHT in 2020

    Dresden did no investigative work, so in addition to the big "To Be Continued" there's no payoff to any particular question from the book or the series. The book is all setup, with the only active peril being the cornerhounds and the confrontation with McCoy. Neither of which furthered the plot in this book. We don't even know who all the tails were following Dresden because this book doesn't care to investigate that

    The Good
    Freydis
    Maggie
    Murphy and the "spoons"
    McCoy's final fight
    Sanya's Prank
    The potential for stories with Butters and how his lightsaber is different
    River Shoulders and the Grendelkin seemed interesting
    Paranet seems more interesting than ever
    The pace of the book kept moving right along, very easy read
    Molly's summoning circle
    Uh.. probably other things? I didn't hate the book, but even my least favorite Cold Days was immensely more satisfying than this outing.

    I'll probably revisit this in September

    There are some good bits in there, but I don't think this book should have been anything but cut and tossed during editing. We'll see if Battle Grounds makes a good case for me being wrong

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
    ShadowhopeMoridin889WACriminal
  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    It. Has. Arrived!

    NitsuaGiantGeek2020Jayrichojdarksunkime
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    non spoiler review of Peace Talks. i felt it was a weak book
    spoilers
    1. there was a lot, and i mean, A LOT of repeated moments from previous books. This felt very soap opera, catch up people that haven't been following along. Things between Karren and Harry, Harry and Laura, Thomas and Harry and McCoy, Mab and Mollie, just all the little character interactions felt rehashed.
    2. The book really wasn't anything about peace talks and that was super annoying. Harry didn't have resources to do things, but it seems like he did? How did he make the potion and how the heck would the potion be that successful against the most powerful creatures in the world. Only two noticed, didn't seem believable.
    3. The whole Laura and her brother thing was very weird, not in a good way. It was too nebulous on whether she was sincere or not. I get that there needs to be misdirects but as Harry is the PoV, he needs to figure some things out eventually.
    4. Was very unhappy that it was not revealed who set Thomas up.
    5. It felt like a lot of loaded guns that were never fired, things about someone stabbing in the back.
    6. Harry's feeling bad about using Ramirez coat for a distraction felt stupid because it was basically nothing.
    On the whole, i love this series and i devoured the book but i felt very unsatisfied with it.

    RingoMoridin889kimeHeir
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    Just finished chapter 12. Recording my speculation here:
    Someone's been time traveling. Supposedly, one risks attracting the attention of the Hounds of Tindalos by time travel, and...well, it looks like either Harry or Ebenezer got their attention!

    RingoPolaritiekime
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    I have to say that it doesn't feel like Butcher pumped out a double length novel and then decided to break it into two books. It's more like he put out a slightly longer than average book and we just got the first half.
    Even without the cliffhanger ending, the book is basically just a whole lot of setup with only one plot line being settled (sorta). I'm OK with a few dangling threads since the next book is just a couple months out they're setup as a pair, but this ended up being a pretty thin book. A lot of things got setup and then it spent the majority of the book focusing on the least interesting item.

    It really didn't help that 90% of the heist was Harry looking at Lara and going beeewbs.

    The White Council looking to boot Harry seems excessively stupid even by their Lawfully Stupid standards. Sure he's scary and annoying, but you kick him out and you get one of two things: Kemmler 2.0 or a dead Harry and a rank and file that's worried that they'll be next; and the Senior Council guys should be politically savvy enough to realize that that's not a great idea.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    RingoPailryderMoridin889TofystedethkimeForar
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    Shadowhope
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Also rewatching the trailer and at least one scene in here doesn't happen in the books:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=F17zuaRJG0U&feature=emb_logo
    Dresden and Marcone don't really have a talk while dressing that I can remember.

    Also Justine comes off hella sinister in that trailer.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    kime
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    Also rewatching the trailer and at least one scene in here doesn't happen in the books:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=F17zuaRJG0U&feature=emb_logo
    Dresden and Marcone don't really have a talk while dressing that I can remember.

    Also Justine comes off hella sinister in that trailer.
    I had totally forgotten I'd seen that, and for the life of me I couldn't understand why some of the scenes in the book were familiar. Now I know! :lol:

    Speculation/spoilers
    Justine is totally the traitor and Thomas was trying to warn Harry. Something about her and the baby and Nemesis are going to become an issue. That's exactly the sort of communications problem that Harry can beat himself up about later.

    DevoutlyApatheticLindkime
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.

    Haven't read that one. It was pretty explicit in Peace Talks that something had happened in some other book. Explicit to the point that it was a bit annoying. I think there might have been references to other short stories or whatever in some of the other main books, but this one was very in your face about it, and it wasn't just some offhand remark about how Harry used Trick X on a case last summer or whatever.

    That in a short story collection?

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
    Tofystedeth
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.

    Haven't read that one. It was pretty explicit in Peace Talks that something had happened in some other book. Explicit to the point that it was a bit annoying. I think there might have been references to other short stories or whatever in some of the other main books, but this one was very in your face about it, and it wasn't just some offhand remark about how Harry used Trick X on a case last summer or whatever.

    That in a short story collection?

    Yea, in Brief Cases. Originally published in Shadowed Souls.

    This is an actual spoiler, it would be better to read the actual story than to read this spoiler but if you must know:
    Molly and Carlos work together for awhile dealing with issues in an Alaskan town. They flirt like crazy. At the end they get ready to, ehem, enjoy each others company and we fade to black. The story is about Molly learning about her Mantle and what it does to her and what it forces upon her. The Queens of Winter are very much the maiden/mother/crone dynamic. They have no choice in that, the Lady of Winter must be chaste and instinct will kick in if she is about to violate that. Molly wakes up and finds Carlos's battered and ruined body. The Mantle took her over and forced her to brutalize him.

    Elvenshae
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.

    Haven't read that one. It was pretty explicit in Peace Talks that something had happened in some other book. Explicit to the point that it was a bit annoying. I think there might have been references to other short stories or whatever in some of the other main books, but this one was very in your face about it, and it wasn't just some offhand remark about how Harry used Trick X on a case last summer or whatever.

    That in a short story collection?

    Yea, in Brief Cases. Originally published in Shadowed Souls.

    This is an actual spoiler, it would be better to read the actual story than to read this spoiler but if you must know:
    Molly and Carlos work together for awhile dealing with issues in an Alaskan town. They flirt like crazy. At the end they get ready to, ehem, enjoy each others company and we fade to black. The story is about Molly learning about her Mantle and what it does to her and what it forces upon her. The Queens of Winter are very much the maiden/mother/crone dynamic. They have no choice in that, the Lady of Winter must be chaste and instinct will kick in if she is about to violate that. Molly wakes up and finds Carlos's battered and ruined body. The Mantle took her over and forced her to brutalize him.

    I'll get the book and read. And I completely did not consider that hitting quote means displaying the entire quote tree in plain text. Only partially spoiled though. Touch typing for the win.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.
    The argument could be made that Harry is a magnet for trouble, and when he doesn't attract trouble, he goes out and finds more as a hobby. The White Council, indeed, the entirety of the Accords, seem to be about controlling chaos and minimizing trouble by keeping it civilized and out of the mundane view. Harry craps on all that by advertising openly in the phone book (wonder if he could get the Wolves or the Paranet to build him a website maybe some SEO, how long has it been since you looked something up in the phone book?), working directly with mundane authorities, being involved in the impromptu demolition of several buildings, and generally being loud and obnoxious.

    The White Council in particular seems like a group of people who love setting up dominoes in complicated patterns on the floor, each one knowing that they could destroy the whole balance of the design with one wrong move causing everything to tip over, and they show their superiority to other wizards by how large and complicated and intricate they can make that pattern.
    Harry is a sugar buzzed 5 year old with ADHD and a jump rope in the domino room.

    Wanting to kick Harry out could be just wanting to insulate themselves from the inevitable future trouble that he's going to pull down. It's one thing when it's a handful of necromancers or some pissed off vampires, but Harry literally robbed a god in Changes. Now, sure, Hades seemed pretty cool with it at the time, but that's the kind of thing that could tend to worry a council of ancient, very conservative, very powerful people who didn't want to be tied in with it.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.
    The argument could be made that Harry is a magnet for trouble, and when he doesn't attract trouble, he goes out and finds more as a hobby. The White Council, indeed, the entirety of the Accords, seem to be about controlling chaos and minimizing trouble by keeping it civilized and out of the mundane view. Harry craps on all that by advertising openly in the phone book (wonder if he could get the Wolves or the Paranet to build him a website maybe some SEO, how long has it been since you looked something up in the phone book?), working directly with mundane authorities, being involved in the impromptu demolition of several buildings, and generally being loud and obnoxious.

    The White Council in particular seems like a group of people who love setting up dominoes in complicated patterns on the floor, each one knowing that they could destroy the whole balance of the design with one wrong move causing everything to tip over, and they show their superiority to other wizards by how large and complicated and intricate they can make that pattern.
    Harry is a sugar buzzed 5 year old with ADHD and a jump rope in the domino room.

    Wanting to kick Harry out could be just wanting to insulate themselves from the inevitable future trouble that he's going to pull down. It's one thing when it's a handful of necromancers or some pissed off vampires, but Harry literally robbed a god in Changes. Now, sure, Hades seemed pretty cool with it at the time, but that's the kind of thing that could tend to worry a council of ancient, very conservative, very powerful people who didn't want to be tied in with it.
    So I do get this argument but I feel like the danger versus utility curve is trending steadily downwards. There was absolutely a time where it would have made sense to sell him out but that has passed. He has accumulated a bunch of political connections and personal power. It isn't like the White Council disavows him and he disappears. He's still going to be the Winter Knight and now they've just offended Mab. Yes, she may be secretly happy he is now more in her power, but publicly it is an insult. It just seems like a bad play to willingly give up all influence on the guy. At this point he cares, somewhat, about the Council's opinion on stuff. They kick him off they no longer get any say in what he does.

    Also remember that very few folks know about the Hades thing. That has the flip side of Dresden also having a bunch of hugely powerful artifacts at his disposal.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    I have an idea about some of the Sword stuff we saw.
    So butters has a lightsaber that doesn't cut people, but will cut evil.

    So what happens if you run Thomas through with that thing? Does it not just cut out the white vampire parasite and leave Thomas the human?

    What happens if you slice into someone infected by Nemesis?

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Finished it
    Probably the weakest book in my opinion? At least book 2 had a solid story structure, and this book has a lot of the failings of that book as well (Conflict! Because! Now character angry for plot purposes!)

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    I have an idea about some of the Sword stuff we saw.
    So butters has a lightsaber that doesn't cut people, but will cut evil.

    So what happens if you run Thomas through with that thing? Does it not just cut out the white vampire parasite and leave Thomas the human?

    What happens if you slice into someone infected by Nemesis?
    I would hope that the Outsiders are so weird that they don't really register as Biblical Evil to the sword. Otherwise it seems like it might be too easy an answer to their general unstopability.

    I have to say that it's a testament to Butcher's development of Butters as a character that I did not roll my eyes all the way out of my head at the fact that he's basically a DnD playing computer nerd who has a working lightsaber and is in a happy thouple with two very hot werewolves. You spell it out and it reads like some god-awful Twilight/Star Wars shipping fanfiction, but it somehow manages to hold up in the book.

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  • ArtereisArtereis Registered User regular
    There was some really weird line reduplication in this book. I feel like Butcher's editors let him down. I loved it because it was more Dresden, but you could really feel that Battle Grounds was cut out of it.

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  • PenumbraPenumbra Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    So I'll agree with a bunch of the things here about sort of half a book but a half with a bunch of fun things in it.
    Also: Holy Shit the White Council is fucking dumb. The whole concept that folks don't vote because they're going to a ONCE IN A CENTURY event on a topic that doesn't have any time pressure is just contrived bullshit. Add in that apparently the general members who were there did vote but absentee? Just inconsistent silliness.

    I almost buy the whole McCoy being an authoritarian asshole butting heads confrontation but the Wardens doing the same thing and then Lara at the end? Dresden needs to go take some fucking communication classes.

    The rules lawyering on the vote is almost laughable.
    The Merlin is supposed to be a savvy operator, but sending Harry's allies off to the summit and scheduling the vote in their absence is borderline Calvinball. And on the subject of kicking him out, they know that Molly is the Winter Lady. Going after the guy who saved her life seems poorly thought out.

    And Carlos is see-sawing all over the place in the book. He's way tight with Harry, so their initial meeting and interaction at the summit make sense, but the confrontation on the road just doesn't make sense either in the context of their relationship or in relation to their other interactions.

    Dresden has all the markers in the world.
    It helps that we only see things from his own, kinda stupid, perspective. Dresden is clearly in Mab's (abusive) good graces, as well as the Winter Lady. He is the Warden of Demonreach. He is favored by Odin. He has literally saved the Senior Council. He is friends with all of the Knights of the Sword and APPARENTLY SOME FUCKING ANGELS. He routinely houses Denarrians. He was directly involved in the replacement of how many figures of the Faerie Courts? He personally wiped out an entire fucking supernatural faction that was one of the major powers right up until he did that. He also has a bunch of major artifacts from the Crucifixion but that's not really common knowledge. How any of that puts him on a list of "We'd rather he not be on our side" is utterly baffling.

    The only argument that makes any sense to me is "You started a war" but then he also ended that damn war with the Council definitively winning. The threat should have been made like a dozen books ago.

    Carlos: Have you read the short story where he and Winter Lady Molly help out an Alaskan town? It is directly relevant to how he's acting here and it is clear that Harry doesn't know what went down there.

    Haven't read that one. It was pretty explicit in Peace Talks that something had happened in some other book. Explicit to the point that it was a bit annoying. I think there might have been references to other short stories or whatever in some of the other main books, but this one was very in your face about it, and it wasn't just some offhand remark about how Harry used Trick X on a case last summer or whatever.

    That in a short story collection?

    Yea, in Brief Cases. Originally published in Shadowed Souls.

    This is an actual spoiler, it would be better to read the actual story than to read this spoiler but if you must know:
    Molly and Carlos work together for awhile dealing with issues in an Alaskan town. They flirt like crazy. At the end they get ready to, ehem, enjoy each others company and we fade to black. The story is about Molly learning about her Mantle and what it does to her and what it forces upon her. The Queens of Winter are very much the maiden/mother/crone dynamic. They have no choice in that, the Lady of Winter must be chaste and instinct will kick in if she is about to violate that. Molly wakes up and finds Carlos's battered and ruined body. The Mantle took her over and forced her to brutalize him.

    I'll get the book and read. And I completely did not consider that hitting quote means displaying the entire quote tree in plain text. Only partially spoiled though. Touch typing for the win.

    There is actually an incredible amount of fluff that happens in Brief Cases that gets brought back around in Peace Talks. Almost to the point where I would say it needs to be considered required reading.

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  • RingoRingo He/Him Bury me at Lone Tree DenRegistered User regular
    Peace Talks full book spoilers
    I almost feel like the Thomas plot wasn't even supposed to be a thing? It feels like Butcher was forced to cut a bunch of setup that he thought was important and instead of trashing it he made up a plot that goes absolutely nowhere to try and use as a spine of the book and staple the extra scenes to it.

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    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    edited July 2020
    I think either y'all are missing something or I'm reading too much into it and missing something, but MAJOR SPOILERS
    Listens to Wind and River Shoulders talked to Harry about being starborn, and Harry said "yeah, every 666 years" and they (can't remember which one) responded with "yes, it's about time again"

    Which means Harry was the time travel, either through Margaret or McCoy or something, but Harry is the one out of place. Otherwise if he was the starborn and it was when he was born, there would be another 620something years till the next one. Thomas' kid, Margaret's blood, is going to be the new Starborn.

    It's likely why everyone is always afraid of him, it's not just his power set, I think the big bad plucked him out or set it up so that he could be the monkey wrench against the good guys in the final fight


    OR! Justine/Thomas' kid is the one being conjured out of time and space, and Harry is legit. One of them is a time travel baby though. I'm just guessing Harry since he became the Warden of Demonreach, had the future visions of it before he did, learned the Merlin's workings across time to create the wards, etc.

    Fuck Harry could be the original Merlin for all we know at this point. It would explain some of the Titan's comments to Mab

    amateurhour on

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    I think either y'all are missing something or I'm reading too much into it and missing something, but MAJOR SPOILERS
    Listens to Wind and River Shoulders talked to Harry about being starborn, and Harry said "yeah, every 666 years" and they (can't remember which one) responded with "yes, it's about time again"

    Which means Harry was the time travel, either through Margaret or McCoy or something, but Harry is the one out of place. Otherwise if he was the starborn and it was when he was born, there would be another 620something years till the next one. Thomas' kid, Margaret's blood, is going to be the new Starborn.

    It's likely why everyone is always afraid of him, it's not just his power set, I think the big bad plucked him out or set it up so that he could be the monkey wrench against the good guys in the final fight

    literally doesn't make any sense with the supporting cast of characters having the established relationships they do

    Unless basically
    Margaret LeFay time travels to the past/future/whatever, has Harry, then time travels back

    I agree that it's worded weirdly but I suspect that there's some yet-as-unrevealed event or trigger or whatever

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    Peace Talks full book spoilers
    I almost feel like the Thomas plot wasn't even supposed to be a thing? It feels like Butcher was forced to cut a bunch of setup that he thought was important and instead of trashing it he made up a plot that goes absolutely nowhere to try and use as a spine of the book and staple the extra scenes to it.
    The problem with the Thomas plot is that it establishes a mystery at the beginning of the book that the book subsequently has absolutely no interest in solving. Harry, the nominal former detective barely gives it any thought whatsoever. It's bewildering!

    Honestly the absolute worst part for me is the confrontation with the Wardens on the road. It really doesn't make sense unless essentially unspecified shenanigans are occurring from some corner.

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  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Ringo wrote: »
    Peace Talks full book spoilers
    I almost feel like the Thomas plot wasn't even supposed to be a thing? It feels like Butcher was forced to cut a bunch of setup that he thought was important and instead of trashing it he made up a plot that goes absolutely nowhere to try and use as a spine of the book and staple the extra scenes to it.
    The problem with the Thomas plot is that it establishes a mystery at the beginning of the book that the book subsequently has absolutely no interest in solving. Harry, the nominal former detective barely gives it any thought whatsoever. It's bewildering!

    Honestly the absolute worst part for me is the confrontation with the Wardens on the road. It really doesn't make sense unless essentially unspecified shenanigans are occurring from some corner.
    I mean he died, he was gone for almost two years (counting the island) the just came back, all winter knighted up, after wiping out the red court.

    I don't blame the Council for wanting to be leery of him and/or get rid of him for a second. There's no reason to trust him at this point from their perspective. All he's done is cause problems. Yes, he has solved those problems, but through war, genocide, necromancy, subterfuge, murder, and theft.

    And he's the son of someone they actively tried to hunt down for years, and the pupil of a rogue warden.

    I don't understand why Carlos, especially after Molly, hasn't just lit harry up like new years eve.


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    I never expected this burn from captain bushmeat
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  • amateurhouramateurhour One day I'll be professionalhour The woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered User regular
    Also
    He pretty much spells out that he's done investigating, he makes the joke about his PI license being done since he didn't know if he renewed it and hasn't been working, Murphy is off the force now, I mean there's no reason for the PI storyline after Changes.

    As for not investigating Thomas, there was just no time. This entire book took place over like three days, as where most of them typically cover a week or two.

    Like, I get the complaints people are having with the sudden end to the story, and I get butcher saying he basically wrote 5/4 of a book so that's why he went ahead and finished Battle Ground and this is the hatchet job that came out of it, but everything (to me at least) was explained, aside from why he didn't get some of that sweet, sweet Detective Murphy action, possibly with some Valkyre influence on the side.

    My only real complaint, at all, was Ivy being mentioned, as well as a lack of Kincaid, and no discussion, especially after he literally tore through an army to rescue her


    Arch wrote: »

    I never expected this burn from captain bushmeat
  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    edited July 2020
    Here’s something that’s been on my mind since finishing the book:
    Mab is made out to be incredibly intelligent and to be planning schemes within schemes and does not fuck around or make stupid mistakes. She also is shown as a being of incredible power, akin to the force of nature itself. Seeing as how Dresden was able to see how dramatically more powerful Mab and Titania were over him many books back and that Mab is no idiot and should be able to tell when she is being outclassed and not just rush straight forward when someone is obviously baiting her into attacking (as she keeps getting on Harry for doing) why is she doing it here? Either there is some terrible writing going on in this book, or there is something we’re missing. We do know that the Mothers are many orders of magnitude stronger than Mab in the same fashion that she is vastly stronger than Molly... so she has experienced beings stronger than her and know they exist. So why did she go barreling forward to attack someone Titan class? Something just isn’t adding up for me.

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Also
    He pretty much spells out that he's done investigating, he makes the joke about his PI license being done since he didn't know if he renewed it and hasn't been working, Murphy is off the force now, I mean there's no reason for the PI storyline after Changes.

    As for not investigating Thomas, there was just no time. This entire book took place over like three days, as where most of them typically cover a week or two.

    Like, I get the complaints people are having with the sudden end to the story, and I get butcher saying he basically wrote 5/4 of a book so that's why he went ahead and finished Battle Ground and this is the hatchet job that came out of it, but everything (to me at least) was explained, aside from why he didn't get some of that sweet, sweet Detective Murphy action, possibly with some Valkyre influence on the side.

    My only real complaint, at all, was Ivy being mentioned, as well as a lack of Kincaid, and no discussion, especially after he literally tore through an army to rescue her
    I mean, okay, but it does no favours to the narrative to set up a mystery, then spend the rest of the book studiously ignoring the mystery

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Also
    He pretty much spells out that he's done investigating, he makes the joke about his PI license being done since he didn't know if he renewed it and hasn't been working, Murphy is off the force now, I mean there's no reason for the PI storyline after Changes.

    As for not investigating Thomas, there was just no time. This entire book took place over like three days, as where most of them typically cover a week or two.

    Like, I get the complaints people are having with the sudden end to the story, and I get butcher saying he basically wrote 5/4 of a book so that's why he went ahead and finished Battle Ground and this is the hatchet job that came out of it, but everything (to me at least) was explained, aside from why he didn't get some of that sweet, sweet Detective Murphy action, possibly with some Valkyre influence on the side.

    My only real complaint, at all, was Ivy being mentioned, as well as a lack of Kincaid, and no discussion, especially after he literally tore through an army to rescue her

    RE: Kincaid
    This is another bit from a short story on Butcher's website.
    https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/microfiction-3-con-swap-and-virtual-signing
    She fired Kincaid at the end of Changes when he took Dresden's job.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Ringo
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