Did I miss something as to why Harry had to summon Titania instead of her helping from the beginning or just dramatically showing up on her own? Like clearly het being there was planned.
My guess was that she had to be there at a specific point where throwing down against Ethniu became feasible, but Mab going "now!" directly would likely violate some sort of "one Queen can't compel the other" rule.
Or Mab knew Titania would zot Harry for summoning her and thought it'd be funny.
Faeries are weird.
I would guess that if it was Mab to call Titania in, or if they had set it up before hand, it would have incurred a Debt. And, considering the stakes at play here, that would have been a massive marker, potentially something that could shift the Winter/Summer balance. Mab doesn't particularly like owing anyone, but owing big to Summer? That'd probably really rankle.
Likewise, Titania probably couldn't show up on her own because Summer and Winter are, ostensibly, enemies. Showing up on Winter's side willingly might have broken a mantle or the accords or something.
(Related, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Butters does with his marker.)
However, if Winter's Knight magically compels Titania to show up and it happens to be in the middle of a fight, that's on Harry.
Butcher nerfed the Mantle from it's first appearance to keep Dresden in more danger. He takes a hit early on that he says should have splatted him outright, but for the mantle. No peak human this or that would save him from something like that. But he's also ramping it up some such as with the Banner power.
Battle Ground (major spoilers):
The final fight had a bit too much melee/physical fighting. Especially from people like the Archive. Yeah, her throwing stuff around was fine against trash enemies, but her (the girl who was holding off like all the Fallen ANGELS...) and everyone else should have got a bit more creative like Drakul did for the main event. Only people swinging stuff should have been the Knights.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
I half suspect Butchers real life situation affected poor Murph (in a bad way), like Steven Brust's did in his books. Though it was much more obvious in Brust's case, so maybe I am tainted by that. But Gard's blathering at the end doesn't change what happened. She got taken out by a putz. And Randolph got away with it so far.
And then we have Lara and Harry and Molly And Mab. Lara/Harry is probably/could be more about Molly/Harry and Mab than anything else. Notice Molly's reaction. Who does Mab want more? Harry and Molly or Lara? If she ties the Knight to the Lady/Winter even more score for Mab. She can't just order them to get hitched, though. I hope I am wrong, however.
The White Council kicking him out at this point is nonsense. They should be kissing his ass. Michael had it right.
I have heard through the grape vine (friend of a friend of a friend for what that’s worth) that he’s a pro-gun Democrat. Take it for a grain of salt though.
He posted some gross COVID denial stuff earlier in the year, which was the last straw for me on buying the books any more. Waiting til a library or used copy.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Do we really need to discuss the assumed politics of Butcher in the Dresden thread?
Butcher nerfed the Mantle from it's first appearance to keep Dresden in more danger. He takes a hit early on that he says should have splatted him outright, but for the mantle. No peak human this or that would save him from something like that. But he's also ramping it up some such as with the Banner power.
Battle Ground (major spoilers):
The final fight had a bit too much melee/physical fighting. Especially from people like the Archive. Yeah, her throwing stuff around was fine against trash enemies, but her (the girl who was holding off like all the Fallen ANGELS...) and everyone else should have got a bit more creative like Drakul did for the main event. Only people swinging stuff should have been the Knights.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
I half suspect Butchers real life situation affected poor Murph (in a bad way), like Steven Brust's did in his books. Though it was much more obvious in Brust's case, so maybe I am tainted by that. But Gard's blathering at the end doesn't change what happened. She got taken out by a putz. And Randolph got away with it so far.
And then we have Lara and Harry and Molly And Mab. Lara/Harry is probably/could be more about Molly/Harry and Mab than anything else. Notice Molly's reaction. Who does Mab want more? Harry and Molly or Lara? If she ties the Knight to the Lady/Winter even more score for Mab. She can't just order them to get hitched, though. I hope I am wrong, however.
The White Council kicking him out at this point is nonsense. They should be kissing his ass. Michael had it right.
Also, what happened to Bonnie...
Harry/Molly/Mab
Mab can't hook up Molly with Harry or anyone else for that matter, even if they wanted too. Molly can't do any of that stuff or she is no longer the Maiden archetype of the Lady.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
Smart and taking up a coin aren't necessarily exclusive. Nicodemus has lasted awhile, for instance.
Marcone's probably aware of the difference between partners of a Fallen and vessels of a Fallen. It's probably overconfidence, but he might just think he's got the will to hold onto the steering wheel.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
Smart and taking up a coin aren't necessarily exclusive. Nicodemus has lasted awhile, for instance.
Marcone's probably aware of the difference between partners of a Fallen and vessels of a Fallen. It's probably overconfidence, but he might just think he's got the will to hold onto the steering wheel.
And, from everything we've seen of him so far, he's probably right about that, at least in the short term.
He got Namshiel, which seems to be one of the more sane coins, willing to work with a partner rather just dominate a body like Magog or Ursiel.
Would have been hilarious for him to get Lasciel though. That could make for some interesting conversations when Harry tries to explain to Marcone about why he has Lash's daughter in a skull at home.
I understand why the Council did what they did. Harry hasn't explained shit to them and I'm sure they've seen Winter Knights come and go. Harry may not be a monster, but he hangs out with a ton of monsters.
Where was the Merlin in all of this? Guessing that the Gatekeeper was at the Outer Gates.
I wonder if McCoy pulled some strings to get the council assignment to this action set up, given that the representatives of the Council are the most pro-Harry members* plus the guy they suspect is a Nemesis plant (Cristos). That way, they only had to watch one potential double agent, and he wasn’t off alone with the Merlin and Co for a sneak attack.
* Not including the Gatekeeper, who was presumably unusually busy at this juncture.
I understand why the Council did what they did. Harry hasn't explained shit to them and I'm sure they've seen Winter Knights come and go. Harry may not be a monster, but he hangs out with a ton of monsters.
Where was the Merlin in all of this? Guessing that the Gatekeeper was at the Outer Gates.
There is something delightful about the Council getting it's panties in a wad over Harry keeping secrets from them.
When Harry asked a question, the response was "Give me a year to get permission to think about discussing this with you..."
Butcher nerfed the Mantle from it's first appearance to keep Dresden in more danger. He takes a hit early on that he says should have splatted him outright, but for the mantle. No peak human this or that would save him from something like that. But he's also ramping it up some such as with the Banner power.
Battle Ground (major spoilers):
The final fight had a bit too much melee/physical fighting. Especially from people like the Archive. Yeah, her throwing stuff around was fine against trash enemies, but her (the girl who was holding off like all the Fallen ANGELS...) and everyone else should have got a bit more creative like Drakul did for the main event. Only people swinging stuff should have been the Knights.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
I half suspect Butchers real life situation affected poor Murph (in a bad way), like Steven Brust's did in his books. Though it was much more obvious in Brust's case, so maybe I am tainted by that. But Gard's blathering at the end doesn't change what happened. She got taken out by a putz. And Randolph got away with it so far.
And then we have Lara and Harry and Molly And Mab. Lara/Harry is probably/could be more about Molly/Harry and Mab than anything else. Notice Molly's reaction. Who does Mab want more? Harry and Molly or Lara? If she ties the Knight to the Lady/Winter even more score for Mab. She can't just order them to get hitched, though. I hope I am wrong, however.
The White Council kicking him out at this point is nonsense. They should be kissing his ass. Michael had it right.
Also, what happened to Bonnie...
Harry/Molly/Mab
Mab can't hook up Molly with Harry or anyone else for that matter, even if they wanted too. Molly can't do any of that stuff or she is no longer the Maiden archetype of the Lady.
More on Winter:
Something is up with Mab/Winter/Summer/Tatiana. And Molly won't always be the Maiden if Mab isn't Queen anymore. And if Dresden does lose his mantle being tied to the new Queen of Winter would just work out for Mab swell, wouldn't it. It just plays out to my mostly dissatisfaction too well the more I think about it. But who knows.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
Smart and taking up a coin aren't necessarily exclusive. Nicodemus has lasted awhile, for instance.
Marcone's probably aware of the difference between partners of a Fallen and vessels of a Fallen. It's probably overconfidence, but he might just think he's got the will to hold onto the steering wheel.
And, from everything we've seen of him so far, he's probably right about that, at least in the short term.
He got Namshiel, which seems to be one of the more sane coins, willing to work with a partner rather just dominate a body like Magog or Ursiel.
Would have been hilarious for him to get Lasciel though. That could make for some interesting conversations when Harry tries to explain to Marcone about why he has Lash's daughter in a skull at home.
Nickelheads through Skin Game
I think Lasciel is pretty much off the playing board at this point? She was left behind in Hades' vault along with Uriel and whoever Dierdre's Fallen was, and I suspect they're going to have a harder time getting out from there than I've had in the eponymous game for the last few days.
Also: wow did Skin Game suck for Nicodemus. Ten percent of the Order out of action, possibly permanently; a sizeable chunk of the rest of the Order probably now implacably opposed to his existence because of who one of the three fallen Fallen were; and his entire powerbase wiped out besides. I suspect his next appearance is going to be .... different.
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
Smart and taking up a coin aren't necessarily exclusive. Nicodemus has lasted awhile, for instance.
Marcone's probably aware of the difference between partners of a Fallen and vessels of a Fallen. It's probably overconfidence, but he might just think he's got the will to hold onto the steering wheel.
And, from everything we've seen of him so far, he's probably right about that, at least in the short term.
He got Namshiel, which seems to be one of the more sane coins, willing to work with a partner rather just dominate a body like Magog or Ursiel.
Would have been hilarious for him to get Lasciel though. That could make for some interesting conversations when Harry tries to explain to Marcone about why he has Lash's daughter in a skull at home.
Nickelheads through Skin Game
I think Lasciel is pretty much off the playing board at this point? She was left behind in Hades' vault along with Uriel and whoever Dierdre's Fallen was, and I suspect they're going to have a harder time getting out from there than I've had in the eponymous game for the last few days.
Also: wow did Skin Game suck for Nicodemus. Ten percent of the Order out of action, possibly permanently; a sizeable chunk of the rest of the Order probably now implacably opposed to his existence because of who one of the three fallen Fallen were; and his entire powerbase wiped out besides. I suspect his next appearance is going to be .... different.
on the other hand
one coin got out, so it's likely, based on what Hades said, that the other coins get out in a "reasonable" timeline.
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Maybe, but at the moment they're in
Hades' superduper safety vault. Most of the other times it sounds like the coins were in a real world Vatican vault, which made liberating them easier. I'd be disappointed if it doesn't take a fair number of years for one of the other Denarians to figure out how to retrieve them.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Hades' superduper safety vault. Most of the other times it sounds like the coins were in a real world Vatican vault, which made liberating them easier. I'd be disappointed if it doesn't take a fair number of years for one of the other Denarians to figure out how to retrieve them.
when
hades speaks with harry, he specifically mentions that certain items are released into the world. the coins aren't meant to be contained. it could be a few years but i'm just clarifying that being in hades vault really doesn't apply to these items. they are treated as special and hades probably understands the necessity for them to be in play. It doesn't matter if they are locked up in the vatican, a bank, or a dimensional pocket, the coins nature is that they will be picked up by someone. Just like the swords.
Hades' superduper safety vault. Most of the other times it sounds like the coins were in a real world Vatican vault, which made liberating them easier. I'd be disappointed if it doesn't take a fair number of years for one of the other Denarians to figure out how to retrieve them.
when
hades speaks with harry, he specifically mentions that certain items are released into the world. the coins aren't meant to be contained. it could be a few years but i'm just clarifying that being in hades vault really doesn't apply to these items. they are treated as special and hades probably understands the necessity for them to be in play. It doesn't matter if they are locked up in the vatican, a bank, or a dimensional pocket, the coins nature is that they will be picked up by someone. Just like the swords.
This is kind of my biggest complaint about the recent direction of the Dresden books.
The Swords and God, specifically the Christian God since there haven't been many Old Testament or Koran references in the books, have become much more important over the course of the series. That's an issue because it's brought along with it a weird sort of inevitability to the good guy's efforts. Some of it's in the form of weaponized coincidence of the sort that saved Molly from getting chopped way back in Proven Guilty, other stuff seems more direct, with the Swords and their wielders becoming more powerful (I thought they were a bit OTT in the final battle in this book) and showing up in more places. Or in the instance of the coins, Hades implying that they'll be back in circulation eventually, regardless. Which is fine if they're being held by mortal guardians. Power corrupts, and the other Denarians would be searching for them too, but when they're stuck in Hades' vault that line sounds more like 'it's all part of the plan, whatcha gonna do', which I find very unappealing.
It hasn't ruined things, but I definitely start feeling very different about the story and the tension and conflict when the Swords show up. It's very much a thumb on the scales.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Hades' superduper safety vault. Most of the other times it sounds like the coins were in a real world Vatican vault, which made liberating them easier. I'd be disappointed if it doesn't take a fair number of years for one of the other Denarians to figure out how to retrieve them.
when
hades speaks with harry, he specifically mentions that certain items are released into the world. the coins aren't meant to be contained. it could be a few years but i'm just clarifying that being in hades vault really doesn't apply to these items. they are treated as special and hades probably understands the necessity for them to be in play. It doesn't matter if they are locked up in the vatican, a bank, or a dimensional pocket, the coins nature is that they will be picked up by someone. Just like the swords.
This is kind of my biggest complaint about the recent direction of the Dresden books.
The Swords and God, specifically the Christian God since there haven't been many Old Testament or Koran references in the books, have become much more important over the course of the series. That's an issue because it's brought along with it a weird sort of inevitability to the good guy's efforts. Some of it's in the form of weaponized coincidence of the sort that saved Molly from getting chopped way back in Proven Guilty, other stuff seems more direct, with the Swords and their wielders becoming more powerful (I thought they were a bit OTT in the final battle in this book) and showing up in more places. Or in the instance of the coins, Hades implying that they'll be back in circulation eventually, regardless. Which is fine if they're being held by mortal guardians. Power corrupts, and the other Denarians would be searching for them too, but when they're stuck in Hades' vault that line sounds more like 'it's all part of the plan, whatcha gonna do', which I find very unappealing.
It hasn't ruined things, but I definitely start feeling very different about the story and the tension and conflict when the Swords show up. It's very much a thumb on the scales.
It's because it's all about choice. The whole series the main theme is free will and its exercise/consequences. The mantlebearers/immortals don't have it or it's heavily restricted. White court and red dont change until they choose to kill. Angels are not allowed to interfere with it, not even the Fallen.
The increasing right place right time of the holy artifacts are being a bit overused though.
+5
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Hades' superduper safety vault. Most of the other times it sounds like the coins were in a real world Vatican vault, which made liberating them easier. I'd be disappointed if it doesn't take a fair number of years for one of the other Denarians to figure out how to retrieve them.
when
hades speaks with harry, he specifically mentions that certain items are released into the world. the coins aren't meant to be contained. it could be a few years but i'm just clarifying that being in hades vault really doesn't apply to these items. they are treated as special and hades probably understands the necessity for them to be in play. It doesn't matter if they are locked up in the vatican, a bank, or a dimensional pocket, the coins nature is that they will be picked up by someone. Just like the swords.
This is kind of my biggest complaint about the recent direction of the Dresden books.
The Swords and God, specifically the Christian God since there haven't been many Old Testament or Koran references in the books, have become much more important over the course of the series. That's an issue because it's brought along with it a weird sort of inevitability to the good guy's efforts. Some of it's in the form of weaponized coincidence of the sort that saved Molly from getting chopped way back in Proven Guilty, other stuff seems more direct, with the Swords and their wielders becoming more powerful (I thought they were a bit OTT in the final battle in this book) and showing up in more places. Or in the instance of the coins, Hades implying that they'll be back in circulation eventually, regardless. Which is fine if they're being held by mortal guardians. Power corrupts, and the other Denarians would be searching for them too, but when they're stuck in Hades' vault that line sounds more like 'it's all part of the plan, whatcha gonna do', which I find very unappealing.
It hasn't ruined things, but I definitely start feeling very different about the story and the tension and conflict when the Swords show up. It's very much a thumb on the scales.
It's because it's all about choice. The whole series the main theme is free will and its exercise/consequences. The mantlebearers/immortals don't have it or it's heavily restricted. White court and red dont change until they choose to kill. Angels are not allowed to interfere with it, not even the Fallen.
The increasing right place right time of the holy artifacts are being a bit overused though.
That's the problem though. The increased role the Swords really seems to undermine the impact of everyone else's choices. Sure they're all exercising their free will (or in the case of the Fae, rules lawyering around their limitations), but the Swords and their silly force multiplier effect from the last book and the whole thing with Butter's magic super traction and all the other stuff make it seem like the Knight deciding to show up is the only choice that really matters. Once they're on the scene, and if they're needed there's always something to make sure they're on the scene, they have such an outsized impact on events that other people's choices don't seem to matter as much. Obviously Mab, Tatiana, the Blackstaff, and all them bring more raw power to the battle, but the Knights are bringing the Dresdenverse equivalent of technobabble, which tends to be just as powerful and usually less narratively satisfying.
Like the scene however many books ago when the Denarians kidnapped Ivy at the aquarium. That was Dresden and the Hellhound vs. a heap of baddies, and it was a tense rollercoaster as to what was going to happen. I think that if that scene happened now, and a Knight was in play, then it wouldn't have been nearly as interesting because I've come to think of the Swords as almost an I-Win button. Even the one Knight that we've seen fall worked out fairly well, since he had terminal cancer.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Hades' superduper safety vault. Most of the other times it sounds like the coins were in a real world Vatican vault, which made liberating them easier. I'd be disappointed if it doesn't take a fair number of years for one of the other Denarians to figure out how to retrieve them.
when
hades speaks with harry, he specifically mentions that certain items are released into the world. the coins aren't meant to be contained. it could be a few years but i'm just clarifying that being in hades vault really doesn't apply to these items. they are treated as special and hades probably understands the necessity for them to be in play. It doesn't matter if they are locked up in the vatican, a bank, or a dimensional pocket, the coins nature is that they will be picked up by someone. Just like the swords.
This is kind of my biggest complaint about the recent direction of the Dresden books.
The Swords and God, specifically the Christian God since there haven't been many Old Testament or Koran references in the books, have become much more important over the course of the series. That's an issue because it's brought along with it a weird sort of inevitability to the good guy's efforts. Some of it's in the form of weaponized coincidence of the sort that saved Molly from getting chopped way back in Proven Guilty, other stuff seems more direct, with the Swords and their wielders becoming more powerful (I thought they were a bit OTT in the final battle in this book) and showing up in more places. Or in the instance of the coins, Hades implying that they'll be back in circulation eventually, regardless. Which is fine if they're being held by mortal guardians. Power corrupts, and the other Denarians would be searching for them too, but when they're stuck in Hades' vault that line sounds more like 'it's all part of the plan, whatcha gonna do', which I find very unappealing.
It hasn't ruined things, but I definitely start feeling very different about the story and the tension and conflict when the Swords show up. It's very much a thumb on the scales.
It's because it's all about choice. The whole series the main theme is free will and its exercise/consequences. The mantlebearers/immortals don't have it or it's heavily restricted. White court and red dont change until they choose to kill. Angels are not allowed to interfere with it, not even the Fallen.
The increasing right place right time of the holy artifacts are being a bit overused though.
That's the problem though. The increased role the Swords really seems to undermine the impact of everyone else's choices. Sure they're all exercising their free will (or in the case of the Fae, rules lawyering around their limitations), but the Swords and their silly force multiplier effect from the last book and the whole thing with Butter's magic super traction and all the other stuff make it seem like the Knight deciding to show up is the only choice that really matters. Once they're on the scene, and if they're needed there's always something to make sure they're on the scene, they have such an outsized impact on events that other people's choices don't seem to matter as much. Obviously Mab, Tatiana, the Blackstaff, and all them bring more raw power to the battle, but the Knights are bringing the Dresdenverse equivalent of technobabble, which tends to be just as powerful and usually less narratively satisfying.
Like the scene however many books ago when the Denarians kidnapped Ivy at the aquarium. That was Dresden and the Hellhound vs. a heap of baddies, and it was a tense rollercoaster as to what was going to happen. I think that if that scene happened now, and a Knight was in play, then it wouldn't have been nearly as interesting because I've come to think of the Swords as almost an I-Win button. Even the one Knight that we've seen fall worked out fairly well, since he had terminal cancer.
re knights, series spoiler up to skin game
And another took a full burst from an AK up his armor, because Dresden made a choice to try and defy a Valkyrie's notice of someone about to die. It worked, but he was still hideously wounded.
But yes, Hades shouldn't be letting the coins out. Especially as "they're meant to be in circulation" is an ass pull. Michael was ecstatic over the possibility of taking out all 30 in Small Favor, only for the next time we see him in a main book to be all "Shrug, they're meant to be in circulation. What?
I can see things from Ramirez's point of view. Consider:
Harry has been palling around with the de-facto leader of a group of world-class manipulators and mind controllers. There is circumstantial evidence that he has been co-opted, which he refuses to offer even a token explanation for. This is several years after Harry (literally) got into bed with the Winter Sidhe, who are also known to be controlling and capable of twisting people into monsters. In the intervening time, Harry wiped out the entire Red Court, came back from the dead, hosted the demise of two Fae Queens, including the installation of his apprentice as Winter Lady, and worked with Nicodemus on a very sketchy job. People died. Carlos (the virgin) then allowed himself to get intimately close to said Winter Lady, and got not just hurt, but physically mangled. With no warning whatsoever.
In spite of all of that, Ramirez continues to trust Harry enough to keep him on the security detail and largely give him the benefit of the doubt. A trust that Harry abuses by manipulating and using Carlos, embarrassing him (personally and professionally) while seemingly proving he has given himself to Lara. Then he lies about it right to Carlos's face. Ramirez lets it go, because there's a battle to fight. A battle wherein two or three fellow Wardens get taken off by the Black Court, and after whom Harry refuses to give chase. And a battle in which Harry breaks at least one of the Laws. Finally, Harry does something he should not be able to do. To all appearances, he single-handedly fells, binds, and captures a Titan. Somebody that put down a city-full of mythic beings and the Senior Council. You don't get that kind of power for free. Oh, and he probably has a weapon of mass destruction in his pocket.
So, yeah. I get why Carlos would be mad enough to turn his back and scared enough to justify it. To him, Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council, is long gone. He probably feels like a sucker for not seeing it sooner.
Ramirez was ordered to have Harry as part of the security detail, because the White Council members who wanted him voted out needed him away during the vote.
*edit*
I also really didn't like Ramirez calling Harry out for burning humans alive with magic, when I feel like all of the Wardens and White Council members present was doing so. I'd have to reread their parts in the battle to confirm, but it's war. Should a wizard just let someone shoot them rather than use magic?
I can see things from Ramirez's point of view. Consider:
Harry has been palling around with the de-facto leader of a group of world-class manipulators and mind controllers. There is circumstantial evidence that he has been co-opted, which he refuses to offer even a token explanation for. This is several years after Harry (literally) got into bed with the Winter Sidhe, who are also known to be controlling and capable of twisting people into monsters. In the intervening time, Harry wiped out the entire Red Court, came back from the dead, hosted the demise of two Fae Queens, including the installation of his apprentice as Winter Lady, and worked with Nicodemus on a very sketchy job. People died. Carlos (the virgin) then allowed himself to get intimately close to said Winter Lady, and got not just hurt, but physically mangled. With no warning whatsoever.
In spite of all of that, Ramirez continues to trust Harry enough to keep him on the security detail and largely give him the benefit of the doubt. A trust that Harry abuses by manipulating and using Carlos, embarrassing him (personally and professionally) while seemingly proving he has given himself to Lara. Then he lies about it right to Carlos's face. Ramirez lets it go, because there's a battle to fight. A battle wherein two or three fellow Wardens get taken off by the Black Court, and after whom Harry refuses to give chase. And a battle in which Harry breaks at least one of the Laws. Finally, Harry does something he should not be able to do. To all appearances, he single-handedly fells, binds, and captures a Titan. Somebody that put down a city-full of mythic beings and the Senior Council. You don't get that kind of power for free. Oh, and he probably has a weapon of mass destruction in his pocket.
So, yeah. I get why Carlos would be mad enough to turn his back and scared enough to justify it. To him, Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council, is long gone. He probably feels like a sucker for not seeing it sooner.
Ramirez was ordered to have Harry as part of the security detail, because the White Council members who wanted him voted out needed him away during the vote.
*edit*
I also really didn't like Ramirez calling Harry out for burning humans alive with magic, when I feel like all of the Wardens and White Council members present was doing so. I'd have to reread their parts in the battle to confirm, but it's war. Should a wizard just let someone shoot them rather than use magic?
Clearly, he was supposed to knock a satellite out of orbit and drop it on their heads all natural like instead of using magic.
I can see things from Ramirez's point of view. Consider:
Harry has been palling around with the de-facto leader of a group of world-class manipulators and mind controllers. There is circumstantial evidence that he has been co-opted, which he refuses to offer even a token explanation for. This is several years after Harry (literally) got into bed with the Winter Sidhe, who are also known to be controlling and capable of twisting people into monsters. In the intervening time, Harry wiped out the entire Red Court, came back from the dead, hosted the demise of two Fae Queens, including the installation of his apprentice as Winter Lady, and worked with Nicodemus on a very sketchy job. People died. Carlos (the virgin) then allowed himself to get intimately close to said Winter Lady, and got not just hurt, but physically mangled. With no warning whatsoever.
In spite of all of that, Ramirez continues to trust Harry enough to keep him on the security detail and largely give him the benefit of the doubt. A trust that Harry abuses by manipulating and using Carlos, embarrassing him (personally and professionally) while seemingly proving he has given himself to Lara. Then he lies about it right to Carlos's face. Ramirez lets it go, because there's a battle to fight. A battle wherein two or three fellow Wardens get taken off by the Black Court, and after whom Harry refuses to give chase. And a battle in which Harry breaks at least one of the Laws. Finally, Harry does something he should not be able to do. To all appearances, he single-handedly fells, binds, and captures a Titan. Somebody that put down a city-full of mythic beings and the Senior Council. You don't get that kind of power for free. Oh, and he probably has a weapon of mass destruction in his pocket.
So, yeah. I get why Carlos would be mad enough to turn his back and scared enough to justify it. To him, Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council, is long gone. He probably feels like a sucker for not seeing it sooner.
Ramirez was ordered to have Harry as part of the security detail, because the White Council members who wanted him voted out needed him away during the vote.
*edit*
I also really didn't like Ramirez calling Harry out for burning humans alive with magic, when I feel like all of the Wardens and White Council members present was doing so. I'd have to reread their parts in the battle to confirm, but it's war. Should a wizard just let someone shoot them rather than use magic?
I think Ramirez was referring to Harry's actions during Skin Game
I can see things from Ramirez's point of view. Consider:
Harry has been palling around with the de-facto leader of a group of world-class manipulators and mind controllers. There is circumstantial evidence that he has been co-opted, which he refuses to offer even a token explanation for. This is several years after Harry (literally) got into bed with the Winter Sidhe, who are also known to be controlling and capable of twisting people into monsters. In the intervening time, Harry wiped out the entire Red Court, came back from the dead, hosted the demise of two Fae Queens, including the installation of his apprentice as Winter Lady, and worked with Nicodemus on a very sketchy job. People died. Carlos (the virgin) then allowed himself to get intimately close to said Winter Lady, and got not just hurt, but physically mangled. With no warning whatsoever.
In spite of all of that, Ramirez continues to trust Harry enough to keep him on the security detail and largely give him the benefit of the doubt. A trust that Harry abuses by manipulating and using Carlos, embarrassing him (personally and professionally) while seemingly proving he has given himself to Lara. Then he lies about it right to Carlos's face. Ramirez lets it go, because there's a battle to fight. A battle wherein two or three fellow Wardens get taken off by the Black Court, and after whom Harry refuses to give chase. And a battle in which Harry breaks at least one of the Laws. Finally, Harry does something he should not be able to do. To all appearances, he single-handedly fells, binds, and captures a Titan. Somebody that put down a city-full of mythic beings and the Senior Council. You don't get that kind of power for free. Oh, and he probably has a weapon of mass destruction in his pocket.
So, yeah. I get why Carlos would be mad enough to turn his back and scared enough to justify it. To him, Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council, is long gone. He probably feels like a sucker for not seeing it sooner.
Ramirez was ordered to have Harry as part of the security detail, because the White Council members who wanted him voted out needed him away during the vote.
*edit*
I also really didn't like Ramirez calling Harry out for burning humans alive with magic, when I feel like all of the Wardens and White Council members present was doing so. I'd have to reread their parts in the battle to confirm, but it's war. Should a wizard just let someone shoot them rather than use magic?
I think Ramirez was referring to Harry's actions during Skin Game
Can't remember Harry
Burning any humans with magic during Skin Game. OctoKongs, ghouls, Denarians sure. Even during the fight at the Carpenter house, I can't remember Harry going to town on any human.
I imagine that there's an element of political usefulness, and an element of "well, there were no Black Magic side effects in the past from killing these types, so they proactively count as human" and an element of whether they have free will or not. Killing a Black Court vampire with magic is likely totally fine - good luck with that, but it's fine. Killing a White Court vampire with magic is likely out of bounds, no matter if they just ate your boyfriend, unless the Council is willing to waive it off for political reasons.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
+1
Options
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I thought the line was basically bog-standard-human / everyone else. With the only possible grey area that I can think of being a White Court vampire who hadn't had their first feeding. I'm pretty sure that Renfields are fair game, and they're just poor schmucks who've been mind mojoed by a Black Court. I'd say it's maybe 50/50 if the Winter Knight mantle puts Harry on the dangerous side of that line.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I thought the line was basically bog-standard-human / everyone else. With the only possible grey area that I can think of being a White Court vampire who hadn't had their first feeding. I'm pretty sure that Renfields are fair game, and they're just poor schmucks who've been mind mojoed by a Black Court. I'd say it's maybe 50/50 if the Winter Knight mantle puts Harry on the dangerous side of that line.
I think that the actual metaphysical line is “does or does not have free will.”
But practically speaking, the line is whatever is politically expedient at that moment.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
I finished this up last night. Really feel like it should have been one book with Peace Talks but this one certain had all the stuff that Peace Talks skimped on.
died. Fridging is exhausting, regardless of how much the character is exalted after they're dead. I'm tired of authors deciding that their characters can't have nice relationships (since of course this book also ruined the one between Thomas and Justine). They deserved a chance to be a family together.
Strongly disagree on this categorization.
Big HUGE Massive Battle Grounds Spoilers:
Murphy didn't die as a beat in Harry's story, she died at the end of her own story. There are other details that detract from the appropriateness of fridging as a term here but that's ultimately it. Murph going out as a warrior has been in the cards since at least Ghost Story if not earlier. This is her, not giving up the fight even if she knows she is no longer in the shape to win it, because the fight is too important to not fight. Her being there was her choice with all the risk that involved. Her ultimately being betrayed by the incarnation of the pollution of the principal she devoted her career to? That's a Murphy story beat, not a Dresden one.
Edit: Though I am with you that I wish we got more Harry/Karrin being happy together time. They basically had zero time that we saw and that just sucks. Let it be for a bit damn it!
Also I want Lara to dig up every scrap of dirt on Rudolph and present his shattered, ruined and broken life as a wedding present to Harry. I guess we could throw in handing him to one of the fear eaters in the White Court as a retirement plan for him.
What is a starborn exactly? We know Drakul is one now.
So uh, is it just me or didn't Listen pretty clearly imply that they were also a starborn?
General Mab thoughts:
So it really feels like Mab has changed a bit, or at least how she relates to Harry. It feels like she's letting the mask slip a little bit and that she trusts Harry more than before. The bit where Harry comes to understand the Banner and what it costs felt like a big moment to me.
Also I know we see things from Harry's often incorrect perspective but no way she doesn't fucking drop a glacier on somebody who kills him unprovoked. It is probably good that Harry thinks what he does but that'd be a huge insult to Mab and she won't let it stand. She also probably would have to race Molly to be the one to kill whoever but that's likely less common knowledge.
Oh, that leads to the White Council full on being batshit fucking insane. There has to be something else going on there because the threats they were making they can not back up and they'd get shattered if they tried it.
Final Confrontation or why isn't everybody talking about
Fucking Marcone. I'm real curious where this goes long term. I know they talk about the inevitable confrontation between him and Harry but I'm not sure that's where we're going. Marcone is a dark mirror to Harry but not totally without virtues. I'm wondering if he eventually puts the coin down as well. I expect he'd have a new "Not really a mortal" stepping stone prepared ahead of time though and I have no idea what that looks like right now. Also he apparently has had this coin since the end of Small Favors. Geez.
Final Confrontation or why isn't everybody talking about
Fucking Marcone. I'm real curious where this goes long term. I know they talk about the inevitable confrontation between him and Harry but I'm not sure that's where we're going. Marcone is a dark mirror to Harry but not totally without virtues. I'm wondering if he eventually puts the coin down as well. I expect he'd have a new "Not really a mortal" stepping stone prepared ahead of time though and I have no idea what that looks like right now. Also he apparently has had this coin since the end of Small Favors. Geez.
There's a couple ways I can see this playing out.
If Harry stands opposite to Marcone, that implies Harry will wind up wielding a Sword. But I think long term...
Harry's going to convince Marcone to give up the coin... and wield a sword.
So, here’s another question I have that o haven’t seen anything on ...
BG Spoilers.
What was Mab about to call McCoy, and why?
At one point, when the planning session is going on, Mab turns to McCoy and says something like, “[wity comment], br-“ and explosions or an attack cut off what she was about to call him.
Was she going to call him “brother”?
Ed: Found it. Page 49:
[McCoy says Harry is not Mab’s weapon. Mab says “Of course he is. He picked us; it was his own choice, which the White Council never gave him.” Ebenezer looks ashamed, Mab tells Harry to stay close but be himself, and then ...] She nodded to Ebenezer and said, “Br—“
I still can't for the life of me figure out whether that's going to be Harry and Marcone or Harry and Nicodemus. One of those is considerably more personal than the other.
(I also still can't guess how Nick's story ends, though his being freed from Nemesis and Anduriel before turning would be A Ride on its own..)
Posts
Likewise, Titania probably couldn't show up on her own because Summer and Winter are, ostensibly, enemies. Showing up on Winter's side willingly might have broken a mantle or the accords or something.
(Related, I'm really looking forward to seeing what Butters does with his marker.)
However, if Winter's Knight magically compels Titania to show up and it happens to be in the middle of a fight, that's on Harry.
Battle Ground (major spoilers):
Marcone seems too smart to take a coin. But since he did, like the rest, why did he wait to get more creative until things went sideways?
I half suspect Butchers real life situation affected poor Murph (in a bad way), like Steven Brust's did in his books. Though it was much more obvious in Brust's case, so maybe I am tainted by that. But Gard's blathering at the end doesn't change what happened. She got taken out by a putz. And Randolph got away with it so far.
And then we have Lara and Harry and Molly And Mab. Lara/Harry is probably/could be more about Molly/Harry and Mab than anything else. Notice Molly's reaction. Who does Mab want more? Harry and Molly or Lara? If she ties the Knight to the Lady/Winter even more score for Mab. She can't just order them to get hitched, though. I hope I am wrong, however.
The White Council kicking him out at this point is nonsense. They should be kissing his ass. Michael had it right.
Also, what happened to Bonnie...
He posted some gross COVID denial stuff earlier in the year, which was the last straw for me on buying the books any more. Waiting til a library or used copy.
I feel like I missed something here. Who's that and what happened to them?
Harry/Molly/Mab
that is...
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Marcone's probably aware of the difference between partners of a Fallen and vessels of a Fallen. It's probably overconfidence, but he might just think he's got the will to hold onto the steering wheel.
He got Namshiel, which seems to be one of the more sane coins, willing to work with a partner rather just dominate a body like Magog or Ursiel.
Would have been hilarious for him to get Lasciel though. That could make for some interesting conversations when Harry tries to explain to Marcone about why he has Lash's daughter in a skull at home.
White Council Questions
Where was the Merlin in all of this? Guessing that the Gatekeeper was at the Outer Gates.
* Not including the Gatekeeper, who was presumably unusually busy at this juncture.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
When Harry asked a question, the response was "Give me a year to get permission to think about discussing this with you..."
More on Winter:
Nickelheads through Skin Game
Also: wow did Skin Game suck for Nicodemus. Ten percent of the Order out of action, possibly permanently; a sizeable chunk of the rest of the Order probably now implacably opposed to his existence because of who one of the three fallen Fallen were; and his entire powerbase wiped out besides. I suspect his next appearance is going to be .... different.
on the other hand
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
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when
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
This is kind of my biggest complaint about the recent direction of the Dresden books.
It hasn't ruined things, but I definitely start feeling very different about the story and the tension and conflict when the Swords show up. It's very much a thumb on the scales.
The increasing right place right time of the holy artifacts are being a bit overused though.
Like the scene however many books ago when the Denarians kidnapped Ivy at the aquarium. That was Dresden and the Hellhound vs. a heap of baddies, and it was a tense rollercoaster as to what was going to happen. I think that if that scene happened now, and a Knight was in play, then it wouldn't have been nearly as interesting because I've come to think of the Swords as almost an I-Win button. Even the one Knight that we've seen fall worked out fairly well, since he had terminal cancer.
re knights, series spoiler up to skin game
But yes, Hades shouldn't be letting the coins out. Especially as "they're meant to be in circulation" is an ass pull. Michael was ecstatic over the possibility of taking out all 30 in Small Favor, only for the next time we see him in a main book to be all "Shrug, they're meant to be in circulation. What?
*edit*
Can't remember Harry
Exactly where to draw the line doesn't seem to be discussed much.
I imagine that there's an element of political usefulness, and an element of "well, there were no Black Magic side effects in the past from killing these types, so they proactively count as human" and an element of whether they have free will or not. Killing a Black Court vampire with magic is likely totally fine - good luck with that, but it's fine. Killing a White Court vampire with magic is likely out of bounds, no matter if they just ate your boyfriend, unless the Council is willing to waive it off for political reasons.
I think that the actual metaphysical line is “does or does not have free will.”
But practically speaking, the line is whatever is politically expedient at that moment.
To responses!
Strongly disagree on this categorization.
Big HUGE Massive Battle Grounds Spoilers:
Edit: Though I am with you that I wish we got more Harry/Karrin being happy together time. They basically had zero time that we saw and that just sucks. Let it be for a bit damn it!
Also I want Lara to dig up every scrap of dirt on Rudolph and present his shattered, ruined and broken life as a wedding present to Harry. I guess we could throw in handing him to one of the fear eaters in the White Court as a retirement plan for him.
General Mab thoughts:
Also I know we see things from Harry's often incorrect perspective but no way she doesn't fucking drop a glacier on somebody who kills him unprovoked. It is probably good that Harry thinks what he does but that'd be a huge insult to Mab and she won't let it stand. She also probably would have to race Molly to be the one to kill whoever but that's likely less common knowledge.
Oh, that leads to the White Council full on being batshit fucking insane. There has to be something else going on there because the threats they were making they can not back up and they'd get shattered if they tried it.
Final Confrontation or why isn't everybody talking about
Somebody's got to, right?
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
BG Spoilers.
At one point, when the planning session is going on, Mab turns to McCoy and says something like, “[wity comment], br-“ and explosions or an attack cut off what she was about to call him.
Was she going to call him “brother”?
Ed: Found it. Page 49:
[McCoy says Harry is not Mab’s weapon. Mab says “Of course he is. He picked us; it was his own choice, which the White Council never gave him.” Ebenezer looks ashamed, Mab tells Harry to stay close but be himself, and then ...] She nodded to Ebenezer and said, “Br—“
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Nobody's speech center works quite right the same day they get kicked through a wall.
That could ever be!
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
(I also still can't guess how Nick's story ends, though his being freed from Nemesis and Anduriel before turning would be A Ride on its own..)