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As cool as winter, as hot as summer[Harry Dresden]-Battle Grounds is out!

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Posts

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Butcher's cosmology is a total lift from 90s Vertigo comics. Religion and gods work exactly like they do in Gaiman's Sandman, Moore's Swamp Thing, and the John Constantine books, right down to the nebulous back and forth between gods being powered by faith but the Judeo-Christian God being off stage and somewhat more real than the rest. Gaiman took the concept and ran with it in American Gods, and Butcher borrowed it wholesale for the Dresdenverse.*

    A lot of early Dresden is highly derivative of other sources, especially Vertigo and The World of Darkness. He's made the universe more his own as he's grown as a writer, but you can still see the legacy of those early influences.

    Phillishere on
    DoodmannShadowhopeSimpsoniaSleep
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Wow now I want to read that hopefully my library has it.

    kime
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

  • DelmainDelmain Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    It seems that
    Winter mantles in general boost the sex drive. Or at least, the Knight and the Maiden.

    And it's not like there isn't a ton of sexual stuff coming from every random winter fae

    syndalis wrote: »
    Apple is a terrible company.
    Elvenshae
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Delmain wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    It seems that
    Winter mantles in general boost the sex drive. Or at least, the Knight and the Maiden.

    And it's not like there isn't a ton of sexual stuff coming from every random winter fae
    It's not the boost, but the ban coming with it.
    It just feels like an unnecessary kick in the crotch for Molly.
    Also it is also either a real wrench in the Harry/Molly ship, or boost for it if Knights Mantle lets you survive sex with the Winter Maiden.
    And i can't help but wonder if this is intended to either sink any changes of Harry/Molly pairing, or facilitate it in the future.

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    As I read it, it
    Makes it impossible to have sex. Since the Lady must be a Maiden.

    On the other hand, it may open up a fun and kinky way for Molly to lose the Mantle.

    Stay at home every morning from the health department warning, take the 8:15 in to the kitchen
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    As I read it, it
    Makes it impossible to have sex. Since the Lady must be a Maiden.

    On the other hand, it may open up a fun and kinky way for Molly to lose the Mantle.
    Personally, i never read "maiden" as "virgin". But Butcher has his own interpretations on the trio.
    I just find it annoying, and combined with the sexism Harry already brings to bear (and his obsession with sex), it gets even more on my nerves than it would be otherwise.

    And, personally i don't want Molly to loose the mantle, or Harry, i'd rather they learn to control them, make them part of themselves without turning into monsters the previous holders were.
    Because if they don't wear them, someone else will, and dropping the load on someone else, possibly less suitable, sounds not like a very decent thing to do.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    As I read it, it
    Makes it impossible to have sex. Since the Lady must be a Maiden.

    On the other hand, it may open up a fun and kinky way for Molly to lose the Mantle.
    Personally, i never read "maiden" as "virgin". But Butcher has his own interpretations on the trio.
    I just find it annoying, and combined with the sexism Harry already brings to bear (and his obsession with sex), it gets even more on my nerves than it would be otherwise.

    And, personally i don't want Molly to loose the mantle, or Harry, i'd rather they learn to control them, make them part of themselves without turning into monsters the previous holders were.
    Because if they don't wear them, someone else will, and dropping the load on someone else, possibly less suitable, sounds not like a very decent thing to do.
    There is actually a very interesting story to be had there. There is always a tension between bearing a burden for the good of others eventually overcoming your own ability to bear the burden safely. Recognizing the point where you're doing more self harm than good to others by taking the burden on yourself...

    Well let's say that sounds like a very Harry thing.

    ElvenshaeRchanenForarvalhalla130
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    As I read it, it
    Makes it impossible to have sex. Since the Lady must be a Maiden.

    On the other hand, it may open up a fun and kinky way for Molly to lose the Mantle.
    Personally, i never read "maiden" as "virgin". But Butcher has his own interpretations on the trio.
    I just find it annoying, and combined with the sexism Harry already brings to bear (and his obsession with sex), it gets even more on my nerves than it would be otherwise.

    And, personally i don't want Molly to loose the mantle, or Harry, i'd rather they learn to control them, make them part of themselves without turning into monsters the previous holders were.
    Because if they don't wear them, someone else will, and dropping the load on someone else, possibly less suitable, sounds not like a very decent thing to do.
    There is actually a very interesting story to be had there. There is always a tension between bearing a burden for the good of others eventually overcoming your own ability to bear the burden safely. Recognizing the point where you're doing more self harm than good to others by taking the burden on yourself...

    Well let's say that sounds like a very Harry thing.
    Oh i agree there is an interesting story there.
    I'm just not sure i want to read it when it comes to Dresden Files, we've seen it often enough already with Harry (and Molly, especially in Ghost Story) carrying burdens on his own to point of breaking.
    Let's just give them a load they can bear, and have them bear it to a relatively happy ending for once.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    I haven't read the story collection, but i heard that the mantle of winter lady
    both boosts your sex drive, and makes it impossible to have sex without killing your partner.
    Which just made me go "wtf?", and kinda makes me wonder just why add this little kick in the crotch for the mantle?

    Really should try to get my hands on that collection at some point.

    As I read it, it
    Makes it impossible to have sex. Since the Lady must be a Maiden.

    On the other hand, it may open up a fun and kinky way for Molly to lose the Mantle.
    Personally, i never read "maiden" as "virgin". But Butcher has his own interpretations on the trio.
    I just find it annoying, and combined with the sexism Harry already brings to bear (and his obsession with sex), it gets even more on my nerves than it would be otherwise.

    And, personally i don't want Molly to loose the mantle, or Harry, i'd rather they learn to control them, make them part of themselves without turning into monsters the previous holders were.
    Because if they don't wear them, someone else will, and dropping the load on someone else, possibly less suitable, sounds not like a very decent thing to do.
    There is actually a very interesting story to be had there. There is always a tension between bearing a burden for the good of others eventually overcoming your own ability to bear the burden safely. Recognizing the point where you're doing more self harm than good to others by taking the burden on yourself...

    Well let's say that sounds like a very Harry thing.
    Oh i agree there is an interesting story there.
    I'm just not sure i want to read it when it comes to Dresden Files, we've seen it often enough already with Harry (and Molly, especially in Ghost Story) carrying burdens on his own to point of breaking.
    Let's just give them a load they can bear, and have them bear it to a relatively happy ending for once.
    You only get that when you're on the White God's payroll.
    What is up with the sexual imposed burdens with Winter, and why do we only learn these when Harry or Molly get them? Mab seems to be able to do as she pleases sexually, so why wouldn't a lesser mantle?
    Is it true the elves wanted to cut a deal with Molly if she slept with all of them? I'm sure I heard a rumor about that yet haven't been able to read the story myself.

    Harry Dresden on
    Nyysjan
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Harry's is only a burden because he's Harry. Lot of/some people wouldn't find it so.

    I'm guessing Summer's mantle probably isn't quite so burdeny even if it has roughly the same restrictions, too.

    And what story are you talking about, Harry?

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Eh summer seems like jerks.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Yeah, but probably not outright as cruel. Or at least a different flavor.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Harry's is only a burden because he's Harry. Lot of/some people wouldn't find it so.

    I'm guessing Summer's mantle probably isn't quite so burdeny even if it has roughly the same restrictions, too.

    And what story are you talking about, Harry?


    My guess is that Summer's is different.
    Cold Case spoilers
    In Cold Case Molly figures out that the reason the Winter Fae are pushed to kill and screw is because the Winter Mantle is basically entirely built around their role as protectors of the Outer Gate. They need a constant stream of new bloodthirsty soldiers.

    Sleep
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    edited May 2017
    The Goats were alright, so maybe its not so much a Summer thing as a people Harry knows suck thing.
    Although its been a very long time since I've read those books.

    38thDoe on
    Delmain
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Butcher's cosmology is a total lift from 90s Vertigo comics. Religion and gods work exactly like they do in Gaiman's Sandman, Moore's Swamp Thing, and the John Constantine books, right down to the nebulous back and forth between gods being powered by faith but the Judeo-Christian God being off stage and somewhat more real than the rest. Gaiman took the concept and ran with it in American Gods, and Butcher borrowed it wholesale for the Dresdenverse.*

    A lot of early Dresden is highly derivative of other sources, especially Vertigo and The World of Darkness. He's made the universe more his own as he's grown as a writer, but you can still see the legacy of those early influences.

    Hasn't that idea been part of D&D for a long time before that?

    Also, Butcher has been emphasizing the point that magic has to follow the rules of physics for a while now. So I'm guessing he's leaning more towards the idea of belief being a catalyst/engine.

    For example, you can divert a river or build hydroelectric dams to harness its resources and energy. Belief is the thing that allows supernatural entities to divert and harness the river of cosmic energy in the universe. Therefore the amount of energy a supernatural entity can use will be of vastly greater proportion than the energy of the belief put in. Just like how the amount of energy a power plant produces over its lifetime can be thousands of times greater than the amount of energy it took to build that plant.

    And as a consequence, that would make supernatural entities far more vulnerable than their capabilities would imply. You don't have to destroy the entire river to render a hydroelectic dam useless. You can just break the dam.

    KingofMadCows on
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Harry's is only a burden because he's Harry. Lot of/some people wouldn't find it so.

    I'm guessing Summer's mantle probably isn't quite so burdeny even if it has roughly the same restrictions, too.

    And what story are you talking about, Harry?

    Story from her POV where she helps the elves against the fish guys. Svartálfar, I think?

    Cold Days made
    the Winter Knight into something that forces the wielder into being rapists because reasons.
    It's a plot point, and no, it's not Harry imagination.

    Harry Dresden on
  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
    In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
    And that worked.
    It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
    Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?

    Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
    Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
    Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.

    Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
    His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.

    The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
    There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.

    I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
    Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
    And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.

    There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.

    Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
    I think that's a bit of a stretch.
    Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.

    Isn't that the point of Uriel though? That he's immensely powerful, and goes up against the Denarians who show off their powers in showoffy, powerful ways, but that every display of Uriel's power ends up being a show of precision or skill, manipulating events in tiny ways until they come to a particular point?


    Elvenshae
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
    In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
    And that worked.
    It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
    Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?

    Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
    Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
    Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.

    Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
    His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.

    The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
    There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.

    I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
    Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
    And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.

    There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.

    Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
    I think that's a bit of a stretch.
    Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.

    Isn't that the point of Uriel though? That he's immensely powerful, and goes up against the Denarians who show off their powers in showoffy, powerful ways, but that every display of Uriel's power ends up being a show of precision or skill, manipulating events in tiny ways until they come to a particular point?
    Not sure what your point is.

  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Harry's is only a burden because he's Harry. Lot of/some people wouldn't find it so.

    I'm guessing Summer's mantle probably isn't quite so burdeny even if it has roughly the same restrictions, too.

    And what story are you talking about, Harry?

    Story from her POV where she helps the elves against the fish guys. Svartálfar, I think?

    Cold Days made
    the Winter Knight into something that forces the wielder into being rapists because reasons.
    It's a plot point, and no, it's not Harry imagination.

    Oh, Bombshells. And you have the details all mixed up and turned around and made up.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
    Delmain
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
    In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
    And that worked.
    It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
    Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?

    Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
    Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
    Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.

    Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
    His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.

    The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
    There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.

    I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
    Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
    And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.

    There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.

    Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
    I think that's a bit of a stretch.
    Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.

    Isn't that the point of Uriel though? That he's immensely powerful, and goes up against the Denarians who show off their powers in showoffy, powerful ways, but that every display of Uriel's power ends up being a show of precision or skill, manipulating events in tiny ways until they come to a particular point?
    Not sure what your point is.

    I'm guessing (and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong here) that the point is that Uriel says he can wipe galaxies out of existence with a thought. But, he never specifies how.
    If thinking a particular molecule into just such a position triggers a chain reaction of events that takes a million years to blow up a galaxy, and Uriel needed that galaxy to blow up tomorrow, he would have had that thought a million years ago.
    Harry (and through him, we the readers) just assumes that Uriel blowing up a galaxy would be a big flashy event, a celestial sledge hammer hitting a galaxy scale watermelon, because Harry's powers have increasingly become a hammer looking for a nail. He rarely looks for subtle ways to his ends, and tends to assume (often, but not always, correctly) that everyone else is looking to drive down the same nail in the same way.

    see317 on
    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
    In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
    And that worked.
    It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
    Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?

    Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
    Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
    Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.

    Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
    His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.

    The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
    There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.

    I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
    Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
    And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.

    There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.

    Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
    I think that's a bit of a stretch.
    Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.

    Isn't that the point of Uriel though? That he's immensely powerful, and goes up against the Denarians who show off their powers in showoffy, powerful ways, but that every display of Uriel's power ends up being a show of precision or skill, manipulating events in tiny ways until they come to a particular point?
    Not sure what your point is.

    I'm guessing (and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong here) that the point is that Uriel says he can wipe galaxies out of existence with a thought. But, he never specifies how.
    If thinking a particular molecule into just such a position triggers a chain reaction of events that takes a million years to blow up a galaxy, and Uriel needed that galaxy to blow up tomorrow, he would have had that thought a million years ago.
    Harry (and through him, we the readers) just assumes that Uriel blowing up a galaxy would be a big flashy event, a celestial sledge hammer hitting a galaxy scale watermelon, because Harry's powers have increasingly become a hammer looking for a nail. He rarely looks for subtle ways to his ends, and tends to assume (often, but not always, correctly) that everyone else is looking to drive down the same nail in the same way.

    Semantics, both methods get the same result.

  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    edited May 2017
    see317 wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    It's not that Christianity or the Knights, or even the Denarians don't fit within the mythos.
    In fact, early on in the series Harry was (seemed to be?) more of an agnostic (and possibly atheist, as much as one can be when knowing Hades and Odin are around).
    And that worked.
    It's only later when Uriel started getting more involved, and WG started taking center stage when some oddities crept in.
    Mainly, the "can destroy galaxies with a thought" thing, which seems way over the top for Dresdenverse, evil outsiders out to destroy reality notwithstanding, but i think there was also some mention of Uriel being older than humanity (not certain on this, i might remember incorrectly), which brings to question, just how do gods come to being?

    Again, it's not an issue that Butcher could not deal with easily, it just feels like inconsistent one from rest of the verse, and could use more light shined on it.
    Because 3 billion (and that number is so fucking inflated) people giving someone enough power to blow up galaxies? Yeah, no.
    Ability to wipe the planet (mostly) clean of life? That i might have actually bought.

    Uriel isn't the only one with that much power though. I mean, hell, Mab could end existence just based on her position as guardian of the outer gates. Butcher doesn't directly touch much on other active religions because he recognizes that he doesn't know enough about them not to offend people. However he still acknowledges their existence within the narrative.
    His power is not a reflection of the number of worshippers. If number of worshippers was a reflection of power, neither of the queens of faerie would be nearly as powerful as they are. It's not inconsistent within the narrative, it's inconsistent with the fan theory explanation.

    The Dresden Files universe was planned out back in the late 90s, American Gods was published in 2001. Of course they aren't going to work exactly alike.
    There is a huge qualitive difference between Uriel blowing up galaxies with a thought, and Mab causing a chain reaction ending reality by letting a gate undefended.

    I think i mentioned the not offending people in earlier post, if not, i meant to, but not touching other religions, at all (beyond going "they exist"), while hyping up his own religion, is also going to offend people.
    Hell, i'm an atheist (was kinda/sorta Lutheran once), and i get pissed not about his religion being in there (or mischaracterizing Christianity (which he does from pov of many other Christians)), but how he seems to try to smuggle it in without outright stating it as special.
    And this may not be the case, it is perfectly possible that he simply defaults to what he knews, which is Christianity, and making it stand out as special purely by accident.

    There probably isn't, actually. Mab mentions that she likes Uriel best of the Archangels because of how quietly and stealthily he works. I think Bob mentions that he was the one who carried out the plague upon the first born? Which wasn't a big, flashy miracle but instead a silent, bloodless massacre that took place while Egypt slept.

    Theoretically, you can blow up a galaxy by manipulating just the right atom in just the right way at just the right place. Uriel seems like the kind of guy who can do that.
    I think that's a bit of a stretch.
    Sure he might be able to do that, and it would be impressive, but my read on the exchange was less about precision/skill, and more about power.

    Isn't that the point of Uriel though? That he's immensely powerful, and goes up against the Denarians who show off their powers in showoffy, powerful ways, but that every display of Uriel's power ends up being a show of precision or skill, manipulating events in tiny ways until they come to a particular point?
    Not sure what your point is.

    I'm guessing (and I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong here) that the point is that Uriel says he can wipe galaxies out of existence with a thought. But, he never specifies how.
    If thinking a particular molecule into just such a position triggers a chain reaction of events that takes a million years to blow up a galaxy, and Uriel needed that galaxy to blow up tomorrow, he would have had that thought a million years ago.
    Harry (and through him, we the readers) just assumes that Uriel blowing up a galaxy would be a big flashy event, a celestial sledge hammer hitting a galaxy scale watermelon, because Harry's powers have increasingly become a hammer looking for a nail. He rarely looks for subtle ways to his ends, and tends to assume (often, but not always, correctly) that everyone else is looking to drive down the same nail in the same way.

    Semantics, both methods get the same result.
    Not really, because being able to cause a chain reaction to destroy something in a billion years, is not same as just blowing it up right this second.
    And that would not be the power to destroy a galaxy (Harry could probably do it once show which molecule to to mess with and how), that's skill/knowledge to destroy a galaxy.
    I find that explanation being rather unlikely (though it is possible that WG/Uriel are huge con artists and intentionally making themselves look lot more powerful and mysterious than they are, which would be a rather interesting twist, and lot of their coincidences are just that, coincidences, which they claim responsibility for causing).

    That "extremely powerful, but only acts in subtle ways" is a pretty spot on depiction of mainstream Christian god (largely because there is zero evidence that god does anything, ever), so it's not really relevant on the nature of WG/Uriel in Dresdenverse (unless someone wants to go into theological argument about problem of evil, free will, and how good is god).

    Nyysjan on
  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Butcher's cosmology is a total lift from 90s Vertigo comics. Religion and gods work exactly like they do in Gaiman's Sandman, Moore's Swamp Thing, and the John Constantine books, right down to the nebulous back and forth between gods being powered by faith but the Judeo-Christian God being off stage and somewhat more real than the rest. Gaiman took the concept and ran with it in American Gods, and Butcher borrowed it wholesale for the Dresdenverse.*

    A lot of early Dresden is highly derivative of other sources, especially Vertigo and The World of Darkness. He's made the universe more his own as he's grown as a writer, but you can still see the legacy of those early influences.

    I always felt a lot of the Harry Dresden stuff was also significantly influenced by Mercedes Lackey's modern fantasy stuff from the 90's. A lot of this stuff does have older original fable and mythos sources, but they both feature urban fantasy with a magical parallel dimension, unseelie/seelie faeries/elves, etc.

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Nothing new under the sun.
    Trying to find something truly original in a urban fantasy novel, no matter how well written, is an excercise in frustration.
    That said, Dresden Files is pretty standard urban fantasy kitchen sink, but the story is good, and that's what truly matters.

    RchanenPolaritieDelmainHarry DresdenNitsuaCantideSleepdestroyah87
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    edited May 2017
    KetBra wrote: »
    Butcher's cosmology is a total lift from 90s Vertigo comics. Religion and gods work exactly like they do in Gaiman's Sandman, Moore's Swamp Thing, and the John Constantine books, right down to the nebulous back and forth between gods being powered by faith but the Judeo-Christian God being off stage and somewhat more real than the rest. Gaiman took the concept and ran with it in American Gods, and Butcher borrowed it wholesale for the Dresdenverse.*

    A lot of early Dresden is highly derivative of other sources, especially Vertigo and The World of Darkness. He's made the universe more his own as he's grown as a writer, but you can still see the legacy of those early influences.

    I always felt a lot of the Harry Dresden stuff was also significantly influenced by Mercedes Lackey's modern fantasy stuff from the 90's. A lot of this stuff does have older original fable and mythos sources, but they both feature urban fantasy with a magical parallel dimension, unseelie/seelie faeries/elves, etc.

    Specifically he was inspired by Laurell Hamilton.
    My first choice was Kansas City. My writing instructor wouldn't let me keep it. She said you're already writing something close enough to Laurell Hamilton's toes, you don't need to set it in Missouri. I asked where and she said pick a city. There was a globe in her office and there were four American cities printed boldly on it. I didn't want to use New York, because super heroes had it all sown up. Washington, DC was out, because then you had to write politics. No matter what your write, you'd lose a chunk of your audience. I didn't want to do Los Angeles, because I would have to write about Los Angeles, so that left Chicago.

    He would later meet her while delivering fan questions to her at a writers conference, and got picked up by her agent.

    Dedwrekka on
  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    So, just finished up White Night. Minor quibble:
    Harry calls up Father Forthill to come pick up the Denarius, and that's that. No questions, "No big deal bro, thanks for letting me know", that's that. I'd at least liked to have seen a minor conversation about it with him. I really like the characterization of Forthill so far and it seems like a little waste of a character. For that matter, why'd he call Forthill and not Michael?
    Not a big deal, like I said, minor, emphasis on minor, quibble. So this book was supposed to be a major turning point in the series?

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited June 2017
    So, just finished up White Night. Minor quibble:
    Harry calls up Father Forthill to come pick up the Denarius, and that's that. No questions, "No big deal bro, thanks for letting me know", that's that. I'd at least liked to have seen a minor conversation about it with him. I really like the characterization of Forthill so far and it seems like a little waste of a character. For that matter, why'd he call Forthill and not Michael?
    Not a big deal, like I said, minor, emphasis on minor, quibble. So this book was supposed to be a major turning point in the series?

    I'd suggest you just keep reading and not asking questions like that on the interwebs cause somebody is gonna answer you and you'll probably be happier if you just keep reading.

    Edit: To be clear, asking those questions of yourself just means you're paying attention. It's begging for spoilers doing it online.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Dr. Phibbs McAtheyjdarksunOptimusZedElvenshaeDelmain
  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    So, just finished up White Night. Minor quibble:
    Harry calls up Father Forthill to come pick up the Denarius, and that's that. No questions, "No big deal bro, thanks for letting me know", that's that. I'd at least liked to have seen a minor conversation about it with him. I really like the characterization of Forthill so far and it seems like a little waste of a character. For that matter, why'd he call Forthill and not Michael?
    Not a big deal, like I said, minor, emphasis on minor, quibble. So this book was supposed to be a major turning point in the series?

    I'd suggest you just keep reading and not asking questions like that on the interwebs cause somebody is gonna answer you and you'll probably be happier if you just keep reading.

    I'll take that as a yes and keep reading :wink:

  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    I've read skin game and apparently forgot the answer, can I have spoilers?

  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    So, his site just updated saying that he finished the short story collection, Brief Cases, and it's off for editing/publishing and that he's back to working on Peace Talks as of August. At least it's moving forward again.

    jdarksunwebguy20ElvenshaeMr Ray
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    We need to make a rule, no bumping until the next book!

    Jk but seriously I get excited whenever I see this thread appear.

    Frankiedarling on
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  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    I'm in the middle of Ghost Story!

    webguy2038thDoe
  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    We need to make a rule, no bumping until the next book!

    Jk but seriously I get excited whenever I see this thread appear.

    I do apologize, I know how that feels. I just believed that some would like to know that he's finished the second short story book, with the novella, and is getting back to Peace Talks. Didn't mean to get anyone's hope up though.

    Lind
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    We need to make a rule, no bumping until the next book!

    Jk but seriously I get excited whenever I see this thread appear.

    I do apologize, I know how that feels. I just believed that some would like to know that he's finished the second short story book, with the novella, and is getting back to Peace Talks. Didn't mean to get anyone's hope up though.

    I was kidding, and I do appreciate the info

    LindNitsuawebguy20ElvenshaeCantide
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    He IS slipping as the series goes.

    Don't turn into GRRM, Butcher!

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • webguy20webguy20 I spend too much time on the Internet Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    He IS slipping as the series goes.

    Don't turn into GRRM, Butcher!

    Fucking "Brief Cases". Goddamn Butcher, my hat is off to you. I'm excited for a new collection though.

    I wonder if we're going to be seeing any follow ups to Aeronaughts Windlass any time soon.
    I want more well written cats in my life

    webguy20 on
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  • RchanenRchanen Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    He IS slipping as the series goes.

    Don't turn into GRRM, Butcher!

    Fucking "Brief Cases". Goddamn Butcher, my hat is off to you. I'm excited for a new collection though.

    I wonder if we're going to be seeing any follow ups to Aeronaughts Windlass any time soon.
    I want more well written cats in my life

    Olympia Affair is supposed to be the next book after Peace Talks.

    My gut tells me he might have been putting a lot of work into it already. Can't get any farther on Peace Talks for the day? Work on Cinder Spires.

    spool32 wrote:
    he pops this cobalt blue tetrahedron like he's thought of something. I'm like son, you know that's just a reskinned fireball, right?
    Delmain
  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    I didn't get the joke until just now :biggrin:

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    He IS slipping as the series goes.

    Don't turn into GRRM, Butcher!

    He's devoting a lot more attention to the comics, as well.

    jdarksunNitsuaDedwrekka
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