Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
has a bunch of tools. A chain that holds up electrical energy, bracelets, some kind of ring for storing memories that I (ironically) can't remember from the actual books.
That's probably more stuff than we know about than for any other wizard, I think.
I'd just really like to ask Butcher if it's because we know more about her, or if it's to do with their shared background that we see them both carrying a lot of doodads.
has a bunch of tools. A chain that holds up electrical energy, bracelets, some kind of ring for storing memories that I (ironically) can't remember from the actual books.
That's probably more stuff than we know about than for any other wizard, I think.
I'd just really like to ask Butcher if it's because we know more about her, or if it's to do with their shared background that we see them both carrying a lot of doodads.
I'd rather Butcher focus more on writing, and less on answering our questions directly.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
What's interesting is that we don't have much info on what Hell is up to. There's the one demon from Storm Front (I think) that Harry summons, who is playing friendly in order to get Harry's True Name, there's the shadow who mucked with Harry to influence him to commit suicide, and then there's the Denarians. The first demon guy seems to be a straight demon, as opposed to a fallen angel, and he's not shown up since, so who knows if he was actually an official Demon from Hell, or just some random extra-planer git. The shadow is definitely a fallen angel working for Hell, though far more limited in power than the Denarians. And the Denarians, as far as we can tell, are freelancers working to make the world a more miserable place, but using their own judgement, so who knows if what they're doing is what Hell wants them to do.
So what's Hell's game? The powers that be down there appear to want Harry dead, but who is calling the shots? Is Lucifer involved in the day to day? Is Hell attempting to bring about the biblical style end of days showdown, or do they just want to burn the world down in order to force things to start over from scratch? The Denarians also appear to have much more freedom to muck around in mortal events than actual Hell sponsored fallen angels, since the Denarians are only countered by the Sword Knights (mere mortals) and God weighting the dice, while the shadow in Ghost Story actually triggered direct intervention by Heaven due to the breaking of the 'rules'. So was the shadow's influence of Dresden an officially sanctioned action by Hell, or was it a rogue op? It could go either way since I can't imagine Hell being too psyched about giving the agents of Heaven any opening to take action in the world, yet offing Dresden could be worth that risk.
I was somewhat surprised that Dresden didn't loan the Shroud to Marcone for three days at the end of Skin Game. I'm sure that will come up in a book or two though.
I don't think that Harry has a particularly unusual number of tools for a wizard of his age. The only thing that's probably unusual for any wizard would be his punching rings, and that's probably because most other wizards make a point to not be within arms reach of nasty things that are still in a condition that needs punching, and those that do have gone with fancier weapons, Elaine has her chain and the Wardens have their swords. I'd even say that the punching rings are an interesting expression of Harry's personality. You're a wizard, capable of working the raw power of creation and bending it to your will, so what do you do with it? Make something that lets you punch good. It's also something that most bad guys wouldn't normally expect from a wizard, to low brow and physical.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Harry is a blue collar wizard, that's what makes him so excellent.
has a bunch of tools. A chain that holds up electrical energy, bracelets, some kind of ring for storing memories that I (ironically) can't remember from the actual books.
That's probably more stuff than we know about than for any other wizard, I think.
I'd just really like to ask Butcher if it's because we know more about her, or if it's to do with their shared background that we see them both carrying a lot of doodads.
I'd rather Butcher focus more on writing, and less on answering our questions directly.
Luckily he does both? He does at least three FAQs, two interviews, and multiple responses on his forum after each release.
Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
What's interesting is that we don't have much info on what Hell is up to. There's the one demon from Storm Front (I think) that Harry summons, who is playing friendly in order to get Harry's True Name, there's the shadow who mucked with Harry to influence him to commit suicide, and then there's the Denarians. The first demon guy seems to be a straight demon, as opposed to a fallen angel, and he's not shown up since, so who knows if he was actually an official Demon from Hell, or just some random extra-planer git. The shadow is definitely a fallen angel working for Hell, though far more limited in power than the Denarians. And the Denarians, as far as we can tell, are freelancers working to make the world a more miserable place, but using their own judgement, so who knows if what they're doing is what Hell wants them to do.
So what's Hell's game? The powers that be down there appear to want Harry dead, but who is calling the shots? Is Lucifer involved in the day to day? Is Hell attempting to bring about the biblical style end of days showdown, or do they just want to burn the world down in order to force things to start over from scratch? The Denarians also appear to have much more freedom to muck around in mortal events than actual Hell sponsored fallen angels, since the Denarians are only countered by the Sword Knights (mere mortals) and God weighting the dice, while the shadow in Ghost Story actually triggered direct intervention by Heaven due to the breaking of the 'rules'. So was the shadow's influence of Dresden an officially sanctioned action by Hell, or was it a rogue op? It could go either way since I can't imagine Hell being too psyched about giving the agents of Heaven any opening to take action in the world, yet offing Dresden could be worth that risk.
I was somewhat surprised that Dresden didn't loan the Shroud to Marcone for three days at the end of Skin Game. I'm sure that will come up in a book or two though.
I don't think that Harry has a particularly unusual number of tools for a wizard of his age. The only thing that's probably unusual for any wizard would be his punching rings, and that's probably because most other wizards make a point to not be within arms reach of nasty things that are still in a condition that needs punching, and those that do have gone with fancier weapons, Elaine has her chain and the Wardens have their swords. I'd even say that the punching rings are an interesting expression of Harry's personality. You're a wizard, capable of working the raw power of creation and bending it to your will, so what do you do with it? Make something that lets you punch good. It's also something that most bad guys wouldn't normally expect from a wizard, to low brow and physical.
Slight correction (maybe? I need go look this up actually, may have been a Word of Jim or I'm making it up..or it was in Skin Game it turns out! I should re-read it...):
The shadow (I believe) was Lasciel. Lasciel and the other Fallen Angels are more constrained than the human half of the Denarians, I imagine that's a large reason why they pair up. That's why Uriel got to step in- Lasciel directly influenced Dresden and didn't use a host. A host seems to be a way around the rules. Otherwise when Nic poked Uriel in the nose Uriel could have obliterated him. Also why letting Michael walk/fight was allowed- It's not me, it's this other guy! And as we saw, whoever the shadow was, did a better job of offing Dresden than anything else.
My slightly crazy theory, spoilers for entire series:
as i said, Simon Petrovich is Cowl, but HE IS NOT part of Black Council. He said during Dead Beat that White Coucil is corrupted and will soon fall - i dont think he would say that if he was part of that corruption.
Ebenezar McCoy is Well Intentioned Extremist type of mastermind, and Black Council doesn't really exist, or rather - a true Black Council is Grey Council. Threat of Black Council is completely fictional, so Merlin and White Council is technically right, but people seeing all bad things happening around are easier to convince to join the rebels - Grey Council.
There is not much proof for that, but some things can be interpreted that way if we assume that Ebenezar will become antagonist - mostly because it would completely devastate Harry:
we know, that he is master liar, considering that he can speak about beauty of magic while being Blackstaff all along
As we see in Turn Coat, he completely doesn't care about Thomas, and i find it hard to belive that he cant add 2 to 2 and guess that he is Margaret son
in Turn Coat, before trial he goes with Ramirez to Peabody's room - maybe to hide the most dangerous data, while assuming that Peabody is impossible to save anyway?
he acts surprised that Harry guessed the name Black Council himself and without help
he doesnt want Harry to share his knowledge about Black Council with others - can there be more "Evil Bad Guy" behaviour that that?
Yeah, i think that there is not much chance that it will be true, but if i was an author, i would wirte it this way. I already think than Nemesis threat WILL NOT be a most important for the series, considering we find out about it too soon in a series (60% of 23/24 books is too soon for me).
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
What's interesting is that we don't have much info on what Hell is up to. There's the one demon from Storm Front (I think) that Harry summons, who is playing friendly in order to get Harry's True Name, there's the shadow who mucked with Harry to influence him to commit suicide, and then there's the Denarians. The first demon guy seems to be a straight demon, as opposed to a fallen angel, and he's not shown up since, so who knows if he was actually an official Demon from Hell, or just some random extra-planer git. The shadow is definitely a fallen angel working for Hell, though far more limited in power than the Denarians. And the Denarians, as far as we can tell, are freelancers working to make the world a more miserable place, but using their own judgement, so who knows if what they're doing is what Hell wants them to do.
So what's Hell's game? The powers that be down there appear to want Harry dead, but who is calling the shots? Is Lucifer involved in the day to day? Is Hell attempting to bring about the biblical style end of days showdown, or do they just want to burn the world down in order to force things to start over from scratch? The Denarians also appear to have much more freedom to muck around in mortal events than actual Hell sponsored fallen angels, since the Denarians are only countered by the Sword Knights (mere mortals) and God weighting the dice, while the shadow in Ghost Story actually triggered direct intervention by Heaven due to the breaking of the 'rules'. So was the shadow's influence of Dresden an officially sanctioned action by Hell, or was it a rogue op? It could go either way since I can't imagine Hell being too psyched about giving the agents of Heaven any opening to take action in the world, yet offing Dresden could be worth that risk.
I was somewhat surprised that Dresden didn't loan the Shroud to Marcone for three days at the end of Skin Game. I'm sure that will come up in a book or two though.
I don't think that Harry has a particularly unusual number of tools for a wizard of his age. The only thing that's probably unusual for any wizard would be his punching rings, and that's probably because most other wizards make a point to not be within arms reach of nasty things that are still in a condition that needs punching, and those that do have gone with fancier weapons, Elaine has her chain and the Wardens have their swords. I'd even say that the punching rings are an interesting expression of Harry's personality. You're a wizard, capable of working the raw power of creation and bending it to your will, so what do you do with it? Make something that lets you punch good. It's also something that most bad guys wouldn't normally expect from a wizard, to low brow and physical.
Slight correction (maybe? I need go look this up actually, may have been a Word of Jim or I'm making it up..or it was in Skin Game it turns out! I should re-read it...):
The shadow (I believe) was Lasciel. Lasciel and the other Fallen Angels are more constrained than the human half of the Denarians, I imagine that's a large reason why they pair up. That's why Uriel got to step in- Lasciel directly influenced Dresden and didn't use a host. A host seems to be a way around the rules. Otherwise when Nic poked Uriel in the nose Uriel could have obliterated him. Also why letting Michael walk/fight was allowed- It's not me, it's this other guy! And as we saw, whoever the shadow was, did a better job of offing Dresden than anything else.
Hrm. I kind of hope that's not actually the case, since I like the idea that the Denarians balance their relative freedom to act when using a host with being stuck in coins twiddling their thumbs the rest of the time. If Lasciel is able to act independently of the host, or even without having a host (since we don't know exactly when her coin was busted out of the church's 'vault of doom' or wherever they stick those things when they get them) then it kind of messes things up for me. Jim's world, Jim's rules I guess. Plus it'd be nice if there were other agents of Hell running around the world. The Denarians, for all their evil, don't seem to have much by way of a plan other than make things suck and kill a lot of people. Nicodemus might have a longer term thing going on now that he has the Grail, but it'd be interesting to have other fallen types tweaking things towards whatever end game they have in mind.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
What's interesting is that we don't have much info on what Hell is up to. There's the one demon from Storm Front (I think) that Harry summons, who is playing friendly in order to get Harry's True Name, there's the shadow who mucked with Harry to influence him to commit suicide, and then there's the Denarians. The first demon guy seems to be a straight demon, as opposed to a fallen angel, and he's not shown up since, so who knows if he was actually an official Demon from Hell, or just some random extra-planer git. The shadow is definitely a fallen angel working for Hell, though far more limited in power than the Denarians. And the Denarians, as far as we can tell, are freelancers working to make the world a more miserable place, but using their own judgement, so who knows if what they're doing is what Hell wants them to do.
So what's Hell's game? The powers that be down there appear to want Harry dead, but who is calling the shots? Is Lucifer involved in the day to day? Is Hell attempting to bring about the biblical style end of days showdown, or do they just want to burn the world down in order to force things to start over from scratch? The Denarians also appear to have much more freedom to muck around in mortal events than actual Hell sponsored fallen angels, since the Denarians are only countered by the Sword Knights (mere mortals) and God weighting the dice, while the shadow in Ghost Story actually triggered direct intervention by Heaven due to the breaking of the 'rules'. So was the shadow's influence of Dresden an officially sanctioned action by Hell, or was it a rogue op? It could go either way since I can't imagine Hell being too psyched about giving the agents of Heaven any opening to take action in the world, yet offing Dresden could be worth that risk.
I was somewhat surprised that Dresden didn't loan the Shroud to Marcone for three days at the end of Skin Game. I'm sure that will come up in a book or two though.
I don't think that Harry has a particularly unusual number of tools for a wizard of his age. The only thing that's probably unusual for any wizard would be his punching rings, and that's probably because most other wizards make a point to not be within arms reach of nasty things that are still in a condition that needs punching, and those that do have gone with fancier weapons, Elaine has her chain and the Wardens have their swords. I'd even say that the punching rings are an interesting expression of Harry's personality. You're a wizard, capable of working the raw power of creation and bending it to your will, so what do you do with it? Make something that lets you punch good. It's also something that most bad guys wouldn't normally expect from a wizard, to low brow and physical.
Slight correction (maybe? I need go look this up actually, may have been a Word of Jim or I'm making it up..or it was in Skin Game it turns out! I should re-read it...):
The shadow (I believe) was Lasciel. Lasciel and the other Fallen Angels are more constrained than the human half of the Denarians, I imagine that's a large reason why they pair up. That's why Uriel got to step in- Lasciel directly influenced Dresden and didn't use a host. A host seems to be a way around the rules. Otherwise when Nic poked Uriel in the nose Uriel could have obliterated him. Also why letting Michael walk/fight was allowed- It's not me, it's this other guy! And as we saw, whoever the shadow was, did a better job of offing Dresden than anything else.
Hrm. I kind of hope that's not actually the case, since I like the idea that the Denarians balance their relative freedom to act when using a host with being stuck in coins twiddling their thumbs the rest of the time. If Lasciel is able to act independently of the host, or even without having a host (since we don't know exactly when her coin was busted out of the church's 'vault of doom' or wherever they stick those things when they get them) then it kind of messes things up for me. Jim's world, Jim's rules I guess. Plus it'd be nice if there were other agents of Hell running around the world. The Denarians, for all their evil, don't seem to have much by way of a plan other than make things suck and kill a lot of people. Nicodemus might have a longer term thing going on now that he has the Grail, but it'd be interesting to have other fallen types tweaking things towards whatever end game they have in mind.
Well, here's the thing about Lasciel
The entity known as Lasciel splintered in Harry's mind, creating Lash. At some point, Harry's psyche and Lash created a psychic baby. It is actually my theory that the creation of this entity is why the remnants of Lasciel in the Lash entity wanted Harry to die - to kill the new spirit of intellect growing in his mind. I think the potential danger this entity creates to the Denarians is immense, but actual Lasciel would, in theory, have no knowledge of it.
Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
Does it necessarily matter what season it is? While the Winter court might be weaker in June in Chicago, they'd be stronger in Melbourne. And anything that happens in places that aren't Earth probably are not influenced by the seasons, except maybe to the extent that whatever portion of faerie they're in is a reflection of a real world location.
The wall, or whatever it is, is probably not one of those places or else the Outsiders would already have broken through.
Tofystedeth on
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Ah, so part of Head Lasciel transformed into Lash, and there was still a remnant of Lasciel in there to muck with Harry. That holds together. It also means that Harry is still stuck with some fraction of a pissed of and broken fallen angel in his melon. I still kind of prefer the idea that it was a different angel doing the whispering, but at least there's no huge contradiction with the general free will ideas and general limitations on the Denarians vs. free range fallen angels.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Ah, so part of Head Lasciel transformed into Lash, and there was still a remnant of Lasciel in there to muck with Harry. That holds together. It also means that Harry is still stuck with some fraction of a pissed of and broken fallen angel in his melon. I still kind of prefer the idea that it was a different angel doing the whispering, but at least there's no huge contradiction with the general free will ideas and general limitations on the Denarians vs. free range fallen angels.
All of that is also possible, it's almost all speculation either way.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I think the real unanswered question here is what character does Harry play in team sidekick's weekly D&D session.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I thought he was a barbarian? d12 hit points and no thinking about magic.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Is it ever mentioned?
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Agreed. Changes was where we saw Harry call upon, tap into, and otherwise put into play every resource at his disposal, and through ties to people like those in the Grey Council, they managed to wipe out the Red Court. I think that book put into perspective just how dangerous Harry and his people are when put to a single task. I have to imagine there was a definite "...waitwhat?" moment before the infighting began to fill the power vacuum.
Similarly, I think the Apocalyptic Trilogy that's supposed to cap this series off will have similar chips being cashed in and IOU's called into play, but on a much larger scale.
Considering what Harry brought to the table, I can't imagine what the entire council would bring to bear in a showdown like that.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Assuming it is indeed the Outsiders, you're looking at Mab going all out.
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
What's interesting is that we don't have much info on what Hell is up to. There's the one demon from Storm Front (I think) that Harry summons, who is playing friendly in order to get Harry's True Name, there's the shadow who mucked with Harry to influence him to commit suicide, and then there's the Denarians. The first demon guy seems to be a straight demon, as opposed to a fallen angel, and he's not shown up since, so who knows if he was actually an official Demon from Hell, or just some random extra-planer git. The shadow is definitely a fallen angel working for Hell, though far more limited in power than the Denarians. And the Denarians, as far as we can tell, are freelancers working to make the world a more miserable place, but using their own judgement, so who knows if what they're doing is what Hell wants them to do.
So what's Hell's game? The powers that be down there appear to want Harry dead, but who is calling the shots? Is Lucifer involved in the day to day? Is Hell attempting to bring about the biblical style end of days showdown, or do they just want to burn the world down in order to force things to start over from scratch? The Denarians also appear to have much more freedom to muck around in mortal events than actual Hell sponsored fallen angels, since the Denarians are only countered by the Sword Knights (mere mortals) and God weighting the dice, while the shadow in Ghost Story actually triggered direct intervention by Heaven due to the breaking of the 'rules'. So was the shadow's influence of Dresden an officially sanctioned action by Hell, or was it a rogue op? It could go either way since I can't imagine Hell being too psyched about giving the agents of Heaven any opening to take action in the world, yet offing Dresden could be worth that risk.
I was somewhat surprised that Dresden didn't loan the Shroud to Marcone for three days at the end of Skin Game. I'm sure that will come up in a book or two though.
I don't think that Harry has a particularly unusual number of tools for a wizard of his age. The only thing that's probably unusual for any wizard would be his punching rings, and that's probably because most other wizards make a point to not be within arms reach of nasty things that are still in a condition that needs punching, and those that do have gone with fancier weapons, Elaine has her chain and the Wardens have their swords. I'd even say that the punching rings are an interesting expression of Harry's personality. You're a wizard, capable of working the raw power of creation and bending it to your will, so what do you do with it? Make something that lets you punch good. It's also something that most bad guys wouldn't normally expect from a wizard, to low brow and physical.
Slight correction (maybe? I need go look this up actually, may have been a Word of Jim or I'm making it up..or it was in Skin Game it turns out! I should re-read it...):
The shadow (I believe) was Lasciel. Lasciel and the other Fallen Angels are more constrained than the human half of the Denarians, I imagine that's a large reason why they pair up. That's why Uriel got to step in- Lasciel directly influenced Dresden and didn't use a host. A host seems to be a way around the rules. Otherwise when Nic poked Uriel in the nose Uriel could have obliterated him. Also why letting Michael walk/fight was allowed- It's not me, it's this other guy! And as we saw, whoever the shadow was, did a better job of offing Dresden than anything else.
From what I get from Harry's interactions with Uriel is that the Fallen could influence people really easily if they wanted to, but they don't because Angels, which are bound to maintain cosmic balance between the two, would also be free to act. You can't get inside the house without letting out the guard dogs.
Denarians get around this because they place themselves into situations where it's entirely up to a mortal's choice whether they act or not. They choose to pick up the coin, they choose to use the power, they choose to let the Fallen run free. Some of them do this through corruption, some do it through bargaining, and some do it through rough treatment (like Magog, who apparently wholly addicts its host to its power).
For their own part the Angels are the same way, they offer the swords and allow mortals access to Soulfire if they choose it. With Soulfire it seems less like a conscious choice and more of a moral choice mixed with a "right person at the right time" kind of thing. Harry chooses to try and save Lash's soul (so to speak) and chooses to go down a path that makes Lash go against Lasciel. He sort of chooses Soulfire without consciously knowing it.
Lash (the shadow of Lasciel who was in Harry's head) was gone, she died protecting Harry, which is what created the spirit of intellect. Lashiel chose to break the rules and influence Harry in Changes, so Uriel was free to act similarly in Ghost Story.
He demanded "thews" be the defining trait of his character. (Or, at least, he demanded thews.)
Definitely barbarian / fighter material.
It's pre-Turn Coat and post Summer knight, which doesn't narrow it down too much.
It's an allusion to Butcher's roleplaying experience. He still is a really avid LARPer, but basically waits on the sidelines for people to stop talking so he can hit things.
He's also stated that he would never play a game in the Dresden universe (even before the Dresden RPG came out) because DMing would be too much like work and he would argue with the DM too much if he was a player and end up inventing more work for himself ("No! That is how it works and I'll even write it into the next book to prove it!").
Edit: However! He did run the entire Cinder Spires series as a campaign for a group to test out and flesh out the boundaries of the world he'd built, because, as he says, the players will always look at a corridor that goes left or right and decide to try and break down the wall instead.
Edit: However! He did run the entire Cinder Spires series as a campaign for a group to test out and flesh out the boundaries of the world he'd built, because, as he says, the players will always look at a corridor that goes left or right and decide to try and break down the wall instead.
This is entirely accurate in my experience.
+6
Options
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
Make a complex times fire hallway, they will flood the room or magic themselves immune to fire damage.
Make a giant maze, they will make themselves ethereal and just walk to the middle.
Make a complicated village for them to interact with and grow with over time, they burn it down and slaughter everyone inside instead.
Edit: However! He did run the entire Cinder Spires series as a campaign for a group to test out and flesh out the boundaries of the world he'd built, because, as he says, the players will always look at a corridor that goes left or right and decide to try and break down the wall instead.
This is entirely accurate in my experience.
If you didn't want them to break down that wall, you should have told them that it was unbreakable stone so they wouldn't try.
Or maybe you shouldn't have told them that, because that's going to convince them it's worthwhile to try.
The only way to win is Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies. And then the next campaign is set in a formless, featureless void.
When one of my spells is called Shape Stone or anything similar, you better put your dungeon in a metal corridor or I will use that spell to tunnel straight to the boss and/or treasures. I mean hell it's pretty much the equivalent of ~tcl for Bethesda games.
Also I don't think Butcher has room to throw rocks considering Harry would be the first player to try busting down the wall.
Make a complex times fire hallway, they will flood the room or magic themselves immune to fire damage.
Make a giant maze, they will make themselves ethereal and just walk to the middle.
Make a complicated village for them to interact with and grow with over time, they burn it down and slaughter everyone inside instead.
The group I play in tends to be like
"Wow, this sarcophagus that radiates power and immense evil seems really bad. It could be an important plot hook, but lets just drop it in the deepest part of the ocean instead."
or
"So this pit that is several miles deep has a terrible demon at the bottom? How quickly can we fill it if we open a portal to the elemental plane of water? Hey physics major, what would the water pressure be there?"
+7
Options
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
My party has decided our wandering peddler NPC would be a better god than the other gods, and now worship him in hopes of amazing deals.
Unfortunately, he actually WAS a secret god and now I'm having to sorta reveal that about 10 playsessions early.
Make a complex times fire hallway, they will flood the room or magic themselves immune to fire damage.
Make a giant maze, they will make themselves ethereal and just walk to the middle.
Make a complicated village for them to interact with and grow with over time, they burn it down and slaughter everyone inside instead.
The group I play in tends to be like
"Wow, this sarcophagus that radiates power and immense evil seems really bad. It could be an important plot hook, but lets just drop it in the deepest part of the ocean instead."
or
"So this pit that is several miles deep has a terrible demon at the bottom? How quickly can we fill it if we open a portal to the elemental plane of water? Hey physics major, what would the water pressure be there?"
I really fail to see how either of these are anything except the correct answer.
I have considered writing up tabletop sessions as fiction on occasion. Over the years I've been blessed/cursed with players that never failed to wreck whatever my plans were yet somehow create some great moments at the table.
Make a complex times fire hallway, they will flood the room or magic themselves immune to fire damage.
Make a giant maze, they will make themselves ethereal and just walk to the middle.
Make a complicated village for them to interact with and grow with over time, they burn it down and slaughter everyone inside instead.
The group I play in tends to be like
"Wow, this sarcophagus that radiates power and immense evil seems really bad. It could be an important plot hook, but lets just drop it in the deepest part of the ocean instead."
or
"So this pit that is several miles deep has a terrible demon at the bottom? How quickly can we fill it if we open a portal to the elemental plane of water? Hey physics major, what would the water pressure be there?"
I really fail to see how either of these are anything except the correct answer.
Terrible demon is an abyssal creature kept in check by the heat and lava of the deep earth. When you flood the pit... the water boils, then is still. As you turn to leave, your task accomplished... the water erupts in a maasive spray, drenching you. As you turn, you witness the dread visage of <insert name here>, newly freed and eager to test his might...
The only problem there is insufficient "Rocks fall everyone dies".
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
edited December 2015
A couple of weeks back my players were fighting a demigod in a large, complicated team-work based encounter. One player had consumed way too much gin over the course of the afternoon. We are playing online via skype and roll20.
So the player just goes MIA for a round and then shows back up and starts singing all of his moves. "OOOOOOOH IN THE MERRY MONTH OF JUNE, I LIFT MY SWORD AND STRIKE THE DUDE OR GOON, TIP ME HAT TO THE LADIES AND DRINK A PINT O BEER..." and so forth, for an entire customized rendition of Rocky Road to Dublin lining up with what his character and the other players were doing.
And then passed out.
He got a feat that granted him +1 perform while intoxicated.
Guys guys guys guys! I have news that may be of interest to some of you!
While I know we are not allowed to link to active Kickstarter campaigns, if you were to search Kickstarter for the Dresden Files, you would find an active one with 16 days left to go for a cooperative Card Game based on the series by Evil Hat Productions (who also did the RPG books)! The cards I've seen seem steeped in the setting/characters, they've got 3 expansions already lined up and added to the campaign, AND if we get to $375k in funding backers will be given the first chapter of Peace Talks as an exclusive preview!
The campaign is using a stretch goal system I haven't seen before, in that currently one of the big things we're working on (in the second set of goals) is subsidizing shipping for everyone. As it stands, if we get to $375k then US backers won't have to pay shipping, UK backers will pay $5, Canadian backers will pay $10, and I believe most other international backers will pay $10-20.
Note: they have outright stated up front that they are charging MSRP here, to help stay in the good graces of their retail distributors. If you wanted to wait and get the game at a local or online shop that you know gives solid discounts sometime next year, that's also an option they recommend.
Offsetting that (if one is so inclined), they currently have exclusive variant cards for character decks for Harry and Susan, a deck for RA from Sentinels of the Multiverse, there's a deck for Mouse coming at 357k, and the third set of stretch goals has been teased to possibly include some more KS exclusive type options.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I guess it was a bit unfair to criticise a popular series of books in another thread...? I don't have anything new to say about The Dresden Files that I haven't said before on these forums. It's a bit weird to resurrect a months old thread so that "we all" can hear my opinion - sorry to disappoint.
I expected news on the next book. I am disappointed.
Well, in vaguely related Peace Talks news, there's a kickstarter for a Dresden card game going on at the moment.
The final stretch goal being met means that backers get the first chapter of Peace Talks.
$375,000 ★★★★★★ ★★★★ (DONE)
FOURTH STONE: PEACE TALKS PREVIEW!!!
When we fund to this level, we'll unlock our final bit of gratitude, a BIG thank-you straight from Jim — an exclusive, backers-only preview of the first chapter of Peace Talks, the next novel of the Dresden Files. We'll share this exclusive look at chapter 1 with you right after the campaign concludes in mid-May.
Posts
I'm more curious as to what the other side would bring to necessitate such a showdown where every wizard cashes in his or her IOUs.
Then consider what they don't have to. (Cold Days spoilers)
Or would, except I'd bet money the apocalypse happens in late spring, when Winter is weakest, and then getting Summer to leave them be/man the walls will be a plot thread. Well, might be, though I suspect Mother Summer is already on board with smashing the outsiders. Is it possible the Mothers are actually too powerful to join the battle? That if they go all out the world will be destroyed just from the ripples of their power? It's implied they live together precisely to cancel each other out...
I'm also curious whether the angels will fight. Oh wait, I guarantee demons will decide the apocalypse is the perfect time to pull shit. Although actually... I don't know if the Denarians fall into that group, because their hosts stand to die. Also, this is an apocalypse that wipes out everything, so it's a crapshoot.
And as a final note... Harry just picked up what are easily some of the most powerful magical artifacts in existence in preparation for this apocalypse... and Marcone is definitely interested in one of them in particular.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
That's probably more stuff than we know about than for any other wizard, I think.
I'd just really like to ask Butcher if it's because we know more about her, or if it's to do with their shared background that we see them both carrying a lot of doodads.
I'd rather Butcher focus more on writing, and less on answering our questions directly.
So what's Hell's game? The powers that be down there appear to want Harry dead, but who is calling the shots? Is Lucifer involved in the day to day? Is Hell attempting to bring about the biblical style end of days showdown, or do they just want to burn the world down in order to force things to start over from scratch? The Denarians also appear to have much more freedom to muck around in mortal events than actual Hell sponsored fallen angels, since the Denarians are only countered by the Sword Knights (mere mortals) and God weighting the dice, while the shadow in Ghost Story actually triggered direct intervention by Heaven due to the breaking of the 'rules'. So was the shadow's influence of Dresden an officially sanctioned action by Hell, or was it a rogue op? It could go either way since I can't imagine Hell being too psyched about giving the agents of Heaven any opening to take action in the world, yet offing Dresden could be worth that risk.
I was somewhat surprised that Dresden didn't loan the Shroud to Marcone for three days at the end of Skin Game. I'm sure that will come up in a book or two though.
I don't think that Harry has a particularly unusual number of tools for a wizard of his age. The only thing that's probably unusual for any wizard would be his punching rings, and that's probably because most other wizards make a point to not be within arms reach of nasty things that are still in a condition that needs punching, and those that do have gone with fancier weapons, Elaine has her chain and the Wardens have their swords. I'd even say that the punching rings are an interesting expression of Harry's personality. You're a wizard, capable of working the raw power of creation and bending it to your will, so what do you do with it? Make something that lets you punch good. It's also something that most bad guys wouldn't normally expect from a wizard, to low brow and physical.
Luckily he does both? He does at least three FAQs, two interviews, and multiple responses on his forum after each release.
Slight correction (maybe? I need go look this up actually, may have been a Word of Jim or I'm making it up..or it was in Skin Game it turns out! I should re-read it...):
My slightly crazy theory, spoilers for entire series:
Ebenezar McCoy is Well Intentioned Extremist type of mastermind, and Black Council doesn't really exist, or rather - a true Black Council is Grey Council. Threat of Black Council is completely fictional, so Merlin and White Council is technically right, but people seeing all bad things happening around are easier to convince to join the rebels - Grey Council.
There is not much proof for that, but some things can be interpreted that way if we assume that Ebenezar will become antagonist - mostly because it would completely devastate Harry:
we know, that he is master liar, considering that he can speak about beauty of magic while being Blackstaff all along
As we see in Turn Coat, he completely doesn't care about Thomas, and i find it hard to belive that he cant add 2 to 2 and guess that he is Margaret son
in Turn Coat, before trial he goes with Ramirez to Peabody's room - maybe to hide the most dangerous data, while assuming that Peabody is impossible to save anyway?
he acts surprised that Harry guessed the name Black Council himself and without help
he doesnt want Harry to share his knowledge about Black Council with others - can there be more "Evil Bad Guy" behaviour that that?
Yeah, i think that there is not much chance that it will be true, but if i was an author, i would wirte it this way. I already think than Nemesis threat WILL NOT be a most important for the series, considering we find out about it too soon in a series (60% of 23/24 books is too soon for me).
Well, here's the thing about Lasciel
The wall, or whatever it is, is probably not one of those places or else the Outsiders would already have broken through.
All of that is also possible, it's almost all speculation either way.
I would swear it was in one of the books. I could be filling in the blanks myself though.
I definitely remember it as well. Might have been in that day-in-the-life short that he did.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
And I distinctly remember that he stayed away from anything magical because he couldn't shut off the part of his brain that wanted to correct it.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Definitely barbarian / fighter material.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Denarians get around this because they place themselves into situations where it's entirely up to a mortal's choice whether they act or not. They choose to pick up the coin, they choose to use the power, they choose to let the Fallen run free. Some of them do this through corruption, some do it through bargaining, and some do it through rough treatment (like Magog, who apparently wholly addicts its host to its power).
For their own part the Angels are the same way, they offer the swords and allow mortals access to Soulfire if they choose it. With Soulfire it seems less like a conscious choice and more of a moral choice mixed with a "right person at the right time" kind of thing. Harry chooses to try and save Lash's soul (so to speak) and chooses to go down a path that makes Lash go against Lasciel. He sort of chooses Soulfire without consciously knowing it.
Lash (the shadow of Lasciel who was in Harry's head) was gone, she died protecting Harry, which is what created the spirit of intellect. Lashiel chose to break the rules and influence Harry in Changes, so Uriel was free to act similarly in Ghost Story.
It's pre-Turn Coat and post Summer knight, which doesn't narrow it down too much.
It's an allusion to Butcher's roleplaying experience. He still is a really avid LARPer, but basically waits on the sidelines for people to stop talking so he can hit things.
He's also stated that he would never play a game in the Dresden universe (even before the Dresden RPG came out) because DMing would be too much like work and he would argue with the DM too much if he was a player and end up inventing more work for himself ("No! That is how it works and I'll even write it into the next book to prove it!").
Edit: However! He did run the entire Cinder Spires series as a campaign for a group to test out and flesh out the boundaries of the world he'd built, because, as he says, the players will always look at a corridor that goes left or right and decide to try and break down the wall instead.
This is entirely accurate in my experience.
Make a giant maze, they will make themselves ethereal and just walk to the middle.
Make a complicated village for them to interact with and grow with over time, they burn it down and slaughter everyone inside instead.
If you didn't want them to break down that wall, you should have told them that it was unbreakable stone so they wouldn't try.
Or maybe you shouldn't have told them that, because that's going to convince them it's worthwhile to try.
The only way to win is Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies. And then the next campaign is set in a formless, featureless void.
Also I don't think Butcher has room to throw rocks considering Harry would be the first player to try busting down the wall.
"Wow, this sarcophagus that radiates power and immense evil seems really bad. It could be an important plot hook, but lets just drop it in the deepest part of the ocean instead."
or
"So this pit that is several miles deep has a terrible demon at the bottom? How quickly can we fill it if we open a portal to the elemental plane of water? Hey physics major, what would the water pressure be there?"
Unfortunately, he actually WAS a secret god and now I'm having to sorta reveal that about 10 playsessions early.
I really fail to see how either of these are anything except the correct answer.
"What is the official Jedi stance on euthanasia?"
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Terrible demon is an abyssal creature kept in check by the heat and lava of the deep earth. When you flood the pit... the water boils, then is still. As you turn to leave, your task accomplished... the water erupts in a maasive spray, drenching you. As you turn, you witness the dread visage of <insert name here>, newly freed and eager to test his might...
The only problem there is insufficient "Rocks fall everyone dies".
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
So the player just goes MIA for a round and then shows back up and starts singing all of his moves. "OOOOOOOH IN THE MERRY MONTH OF JUNE, I LIFT MY SWORD AND STRIKE THE DUDE OR GOON, TIP ME HAT TO THE LADIES AND DRINK A PINT O BEER..." and so forth, for an entire customized rendition of Rocky Road to Dublin lining up with what his character and the other players were doing.
And then passed out.
He got a feat that granted him +1 perform while intoxicated.
While I know we are not allowed to link to active Kickstarter campaigns, if you were to search Kickstarter for the Dresden Files, you would find an active one with 16 days left to go for a cooperative Card Game based on the series by Evil Hat Productions (who also did the RPG books)! The cards I've seen seem steeped in the setting/characters, they've got 3 expansions already lined up and added to the campaign, AND if we get to $375k in funding backers will be given the first chapter of Peace Talks as an exclusive preview!
The campaign is using a stretch goal system I haven't seen before, in that currently one of the big things we're working on (in the second set of goals) is subsidizing shipping for everyone. As it stands, if we get to $375k then US backers won't have to pay shipping, UK backers will pay $5, Canadian backers will pay $10, and I believe most other international backers will pay $10-20.
Note: they have outright stated up front that they are charging MSRP here, to help stay in the good graces of their retail distributors. If you wanted to wait and get the game at a local or online shop that you know gives solid discounts sometime next year, that's also an option they recommend.
Offsetting that (if one is so inclined), they currently have exclusive variant cards for character decks for Harry and Susan, a deck for RA from Sentinels of the Multiverse, there's a deck for Mouse coming at 357k, and the third set of stretch goals has been teased to possibly include some more KS exclusive type options.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Well, in vaguely related Peace Talks news, there's a kickstarter for a Dresden card game going on at the moment.
The final stretch goal being met means that backers get the first chapter of Peace Talks.