Had an amazing draft in Arena that got wrecked by lousy draws. While I was pissed, the anger passed when I opened an Ice Block and Golden Tirion. Ok game, I accept your 1700 dust apology.
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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+6
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
i can 1-shot an opponent by turn 4 if they don't know what they're doing
Henceforth, no more comments about winning with a particular deck without providing a list. It doesn't matter what kind of deck, or even if you are missing cards, you never know who might want to give it a go.
duuude, I didn't lose a game from 15 to very nearly 9 with this awesome super-aggro succubus warlock deck!
Are lightspawns really a better choice than Dragonkin sorcerors? Especially since you have Light of the Naaru (which triggers sorcerors buff).
Honestly, I hadn't thought about that card as an alternative.
While this is only theorycraft, Lightspawn seems better to me because all of the health buffs translate into equal attack buffs. Velen's Chosen becomes a +4/+4, +1 Spell Damage Buff on it. Divine Spirit doubles its attack, whereas Dragonkin Sorcerer becomes a 4/12. I likely wouldn't cast it without Inner Fire. Inner Fire has no synergy but that's because Lightspawn comes with its effect built in, which strikes me as better value since Dragonkin Sorcerer would only become a 6/6 for 5 mana and two cards of investment. Power Word: Shield grants the same overall buff/card advantage but is more aggressive on Lightspawn and more defensive on Dragonkin.
Of course, DS doesn't have Lightspawn's drawback. Not sure if that negates all of the above advantages. Try it out and let me know!
I personally run both in Inner Fire Priest, over something like Echoing Ooze, but then I've only played classical pre-Djinni inner fire decks, so maybe going all-in on mass buffs is better now. Lightspawn is an alt win condition since it doesn't need Inner Fire to get the kill, and Dragonkin is the next-best minion to go off on with the standard combo other than Deathlord (and is more likely to enter your turn undamaged than either Deathlord or Lightspawn).
Thoughts on a control shaman I've been playing around with? I'm hanging out at rank 9 right now without about a 50% win rate, though that was only 10 games or so, as it's a slow deck. I feel my current list is clearly inferior to a more midrangey battlecry shaman, but I enjoy it and it surprises people.
Question mark over lightning bolt, feral spirits and Sylvannas in particular. I think removing an elemental destruction would mean taking out the volcanic drakes and I really like that combo. Maybe I should replace one of those with an ancestral knowledge for more consistency? Lightning bolt seems a reasonable early removal and helps Thalnos earn his keep, but possibly doesn't do enough to justify a card slot in this kind of deck that aims to come back from behind.
Just throwing some ideas out there - getting Thaurissan off on Kel'thuzad or ED would potentially let you resurrect your whole board after blowing it up (if you consider this, I'd stick in a Reincarnate and keep Sylv). Presuming you don't have Doomhammer as otherwise you'd be running it. Feral Spirit is a bad card without Tunnel Trogg. Drake is cool but easy to clear? I feel like if you're running two scarabs you could probably cut down to 1 of hex/lightning storm.
I don't think you understand the point of a control deck from that last sentence. You want literally the maximum amount of board clears and hard removal you can get. In fact, I'd probably advocate for Wild Pyromancer in that deck, to help even more with Paladins. Along with, ideally, the doomhammer+rockbiter setup, which allows both multi-target big stuff removal (may need to add in healbots to go with the healing waves if you do this) as well as giving you a way to actually kill the opponent when the situation calls for it, as well as being more early removal as well.
I would definitely say Sylvanas doesn't have a place in this deck without Reincarnate shenanigans, and those shenanigans would almost surely make the deck worse. She's just too slow in literally every matchup but like Control Warrior, and shaman is favored against cwar anyway (important: DO NOT activate Charged Hammer against warrior, you want to have a full complement of totems as much as you can against them).
Also probably BGH has a spot in that deck. Lets you not waste a hex on Boom, which is big for Secret Pally since you need all the hexes you can get. And even other decks, BGHing boom lets you like, hex belchers or shredders to stabilize the board.
Edit: Booo, rockbiter can only target friendlies. Coulda been a BGH combo otherwise.
Thoughts on a control shaman I've been playing around with? I'm hanging out at rank 9 right now without about a 50% win rate, though that was only 10 games or so, as it's a slow deck. I feel my current list is clearly inferior to a more midrangey battlecry shaman, but I enjoy it and it surprises people.
Question mark over lightning bolt, feral spirits and Sylvannas in particular. I think removing an elemental destruction would mean taking out the volcanic drakes and I really like that combo. Maybe I should replace one of those with an ancestral knowledge for more consistency? Lightning bolt seems a reasonable early removal and helps Thalnos earn his keep, but possibly doesn't do enough to justify a card slot in this kind of deck that aims to come back from behind.
Thoughts on a control shaman I've been playing around with? I'm hanging out at rank 9 right now without about a 50% win rate, though that was only 10 games or so, as it's a slow deck. I feel my current list is clearly inferior to a more midrangey battlecry shaman, but I enjoy it and it surprises people.
Question mark over lightning bolt, feral spirits and Sylvannas in particular. I think removing an elemental destruction would mean taking out the volcanic drakes and I really like that combo. Maybe I should replace one of those with an ancestral knowledge for more consistency? Lightning bolt seems a reasonable early removal and helps Thalnos earn his keep, but possibly doesn't do enough to justify a card slot in this kind of deck that aims to come back from behind.
Just pulled my first Alex (face with my board) into Fireball/Fireball (both from an Ethereal Conjurer that got Duplicated) for lethal. Yeah, that feels pretty good. :biggrin:
TheCanMan on
+1
Idx86Long days and pleasant nights.Registered Userregular
i can 1-shot an opponent by turn 4 if they don't know what they're doing
Henceforth, no more comments about winning with a particular deck without providing a list. It doesn't matter what kind of deck, or even if you are missing cards, you never know who might want to give it a go.
duuude, I didn't lose a game from 15 to very nearly 9 with this awesome super-aggro succubus warlock deck!
Are lightspawns really a better choice than Dragonkin sorcerors? Especially since you have Light of the Naaru (which triggers sorcerors buff).
Honestly, I hadn't thought about that card as an alternative.
While this is only theorycraft, Lightspawn seems better to me because all of the health buffs translate into equal attack buffs. Velen's Chosen becomes a +4/+4, +1 Spell Damage Buff on it. Divine Spirit doubles its attack, whereas Dragonkin Sorcerer becomes a 4/12. I likely wouldn't cast it without Inner Fire. Inner Fire has no synergy but that's because Lightspawn comes with its effect built in, which strikes me as better value since Dragonkin Sorcerer would only become a 6/6 for 5 mana and two cards of investment. Power Word: Shield grants the same overall buff/card advantage but is more aggressive on Lightspawn and more defensive on Dragonkin.
Of course, DS doesn't have Lightspawn's drawback. Not sure if that negates all of the above advantages. Try it out and let me know!
I personally run both in Inner Fire Priest, over something like Echoing Ooze, but then I've only played classical pre-Djinni inner fire decks, so maybe going all-in on mass buffs is better now. Lightspawn is an alt win condition since it doesn't need Inner Fire to get the kill, and Dragonkin is the next-best minion to go off on with the standard combo other than Deathlord (and is more likely to enter your turn undamaged than either Deathlord or Lightspawn).
Thoughts on a control shaman I've been playing around with? I'm hanging out at rank 9 right now without about a 50% win rate, though that was only 10 games or so, as it's a slow deck. I feel my current list is clearly inferior to a more midrangey battlecry shaman, but I enjoy it and it surprises people.
Question mark over lightning bolt, feral spirits and Sylvannas in particular. I think removing an elemental destruction would mean taking out the volcanic drakes and I really like that combo. Maybe I should replace one of those with an ancestral knowledge for more consistency? Lightning bolt seems a reasonable early removal and helps Thalnos earn his keep, but possibly doesn't do enough to justify a card slot in this kind of deck that aims to come back from behind.
Just throwing some ideas out there - getting Thaurissan off on Kel'thuzad or ED would potentially let you resurrect your whole board after blowing it up (if you consider this, I'd stick in a Reincarnate and keep Sylv). Presuming you don't have Doomhammer as otherwise you'd be running it. Feral Spirit is a bad card without Tunnel Trogg. Drake is cool but easy to clear? I feel like if you're running two scarabs you could probably cut down to 1 of hex/lightning storm.
I don't think you understand the point of a control deck from that last sentence. You want literally the maximum amount of board clears and hard removal you can get. In fact, I'd probably advocate for Wild Pyromancer in that deck, to help even more with Paladins. Along with, ideally, the doomhammer+rockbiter setup, which allows both multi-target big stuff removal (may need to add in healbots to go with the healing waves if you do this) as well as giving you a way to actually kill the opponent when the situation calls for it, as well as being more early removal as well.
I would definitely say Sylvanas doesn't have a place in this deck without Reincarnate shenanigans, and those shenanigans would almost surely make the deck worse. She's just too slow in literally every matchup but like Control Warrior, and shaman is favored against cwar anyway (important: DO NOT activate Charged Hammer against warrior, you want to have a full complement of totems as much as you can against them).
Also probably BGH has a spot in that deck. Lets you not waste a hex on Boom, which is big for Secret Pally since you need all the hexes you can get. And even other decks, BGHing boom lets you like, hex belchers or shredders to stabilize the board.
Edit: Booo, rockbiter can only target friendlies. Coulda been a BGH combo otherwise.
10/10, would play Dis Card again. Hilarious and catches people offguard.
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
I could make a bad secret Paladin deck, don't test me.
Anyway, the worst thing about all the freeze mages coming back, besides having to play against freeze mage, is now I guess wrong on the mulligan 90% of the time.
it's warlock, it's hard to make a bad warlock deck
Not really, I had a game of Dis Card where I had done 11 damage to myself by turn 4. A dedicated suicide zoo deck would be pretty damn bad.
also reno zoo not having brann? that's actually silly.
I mean, I didn't make the deck, I just found the list. You absolutely could toss Brann in there, probably subbing out for Harvest Golem?
I'd even think about adding Enhance-o Mechano in there too.
I'm really iffy on Reliquary Seeker, personally. It can certainly be a good card but you need a deck that can reliably flood the board for it to not be trash, and as we all know Reno decks aren't the most consistent. Plus I'd rather keep Golem in, that only has 3 3 drops right now and Void Terror isn't really a 3 drop. Yeah, you can 1 drop + tap on 3, but I'd rather have more of a chance to actually curve correctly.
I've tried Reno zoo and Reno handlock, and I've found the handlock version to be a lot better. It might just be because my zoo list wasn't very refined but I feel that Reno fits better with the handlock play style.
To the person asking about Alex above, I don't think she fits in dragon priest.
Just played the same Mech Rogue twice in a row as Freeze. Game 1 I burned 18 cards and never let his Fel Reaver untap. He apparently didn't learn his lesson; game 2 he played one on 5 and one on 6, and his deck was gone on 7.
Oh wow. That Shaman can not be happy right now. I was playing my crappy Freeze Mage deck (it's crappy because I'm missing both Ice Blocks & Antonidas along with a couple other cards). I've burned him down to 5 health but I've already used most of my burn and I have an empty board while he's just hit me with his pumped up Unbound Elemental, dropped Al'Akir with a Rockbiter and smacked me twice, and went in for the final point of damage for lethal with his last Charged Hammer hit. Luckily, I had pulled an Ice Block from an Ethereal Conjurer earlier so I have one last chance.
...And I pull a Loot Hoarder. I drop him and ping it with my hero. The Shaman tried to BM me with "Thanks", so I burn him down with the last Fireball that I just topdecked with the Loot Hoarder draw and replay with my own "Thanks". As the screen fades I see his "Oops" pop up. *fireworks*
Goddamn Secret Paladin is stupid. What hurts the most is that Secrets are what initially drew my attention in Hearthstone.
When I first started playing, I chose Hunter as my main class...way before finding out how much everyone hated him. I really liked the sneakiness Secrets brought to the game. Was it Explosive? Snipe? Freezing? I even tried to make Paladin and Mage work with no success.
So as much as I love Secrets, Mysterious Challenger is just way too much. 6 mana 6/6 that puts 5 mana of Secrets into play? What's worse is the hidden additional value of thinning your deck making future draws even better.
MC makes Secrets Paladin viable but is too strong in my opinion. Nerfing the body won't do anything (although it couldn't hurt) so I think the fix is in the Secrets part. Either put way less of them into play (say 2-3 tops) or add them to your hand instead.
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
Goddamn Secret Paladin is stupid. What hurts the most is that Secrets are what initially drew my attention in Hearthstone.
When I first started playing, I chose Hunter as my main class...way before finding out how much everyone hated him. I really liked the sneakiness Secrets brought to the game. Was it Explosive? Snipe? Freezing? I even tried to make Paladin and Mage work with no success.
So as much as I love Secrets, Mysterious Challenger is just way too much. 6 mana 6/6 that puts 5 mana of Secrets into play? What's worse is the hidden additional value of thinning your deck making future draws even better.
MC makes Secrets Paladin viable but is too strong in my opinion. Nerfing the body won't do anything (although it couldn't hurt) so I think the fix is in the Secrets part. Either put way less of them into play (say 2-3 tops) or add them to your hand instead.
Would the lose cards possibly balance it? As in yes they get 5 secrets played but lose either all cards in their hand or lose the top # cards from the deck. I don't really know, but just thinking of ways Blizzard had balanced an overpowered card before launching it.
What about a nerf to MC's body and nerfing the secret that's causing the most problems? Like, maybe drop MC down to a 6/4 or maybe a 7/5 (put him in BGH range) and dropping Avenge to +3/+0 or +2/+1? Would that be too much of a nerf?
Paladin secrets themselves are still really weak and not actually worth a card alone, though. It should be telling that no Paladin deck ever ran Mad Scientist to much success, despite how ridiculously strong he is considered for Hunter and Mage. It really does take an effect about as dumb as Mysterious Challenger to bring them into viability, and I say this as someone who has a gold Paladin portrait but never played Secret Paladin ever.
You could kill the deck by killing the Challenger of course, but its not like generic Aggrodin is bad so long as Divine Favor remains a card too.
0
El SkidThe frozen white northRegistered Userregular
I think avenge is fine. In fact, the best way to currently deal with MC is to kill another minion (or the secret minion by just attacking whatever), and then BGH MC when it gets the avenge buff.
I could definitely see MC as a 6/3 body being much more balanced, leaving the rest of it as it is.
The "drawing secrets to hand instead of playing them" would definitely be a big nerf as well- you'd have to worry about overdrawing and wouldn't really want to drop him on turn 5/6... Not to mention having to actually pay the mana for the secrets.
Let me interrupt my hating on Secret Paladins, with a hypocritical story:
I just beat a Mech Reno Mage who kept BM emoting after every play. I got him to 6HP and popped his Ice Block. He responds by playing Reno and clearing my board. I reload and the game continues back and forth.
In the end, I drop Tirion and play Redemption with a 6/2 MC left on the board. He responds with Antonidas, x2 Armor Plating, and Cloaking Field. Oh yeah, non-stop "I'm sorry" emotes. I punch his face with MC, Tirion, and equip a Truesilver getting him to down to 14HP. He counters by Fireballing my face (taking me to 10) and Blizzarding my board causing my MC to come back as a 6/1. Again, non-stop BMs.
I "Well Played" and attack with MC and Truesilver, then Owl Tirion for lethal.
Funnily enough, he didn't accept my friend request after the game.
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051 Steam ID Twitch Page
+13
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Definitely just lost a Control Warrior mirror (my Reno vs. his Golden Monkey) because a fucking Blingtron gave me a fucking Cursed Blade.
Just played two of those new Renolocks in a row with dragon priest. I dunno. Doesn't seem like a super strong deck to me. They both got to drop Reno AND Jaraxxus and I beat them both down anyway. Guess it'd be a pretty good deck against midrange hunter/druid, though, which destroy my deck.
I should figure out a few new decks to build. Have been stuck using the same old same old for a while.
I do have an abundance of dust at the moment. I had saved up enough to make on legendary, and then I got both a duplicate Deathwing and a golden Ragnaros in packs recently.
I have a standard Ragnaros so I know I should shred that to make any other Legendary, but I have been hesitant to do so. Maybe I'll just use him a few times before he goes bye bye.
Secrets is just midrange Paladin with hero power synergy swapped out for a secrets package.
I'd much rather they nerfed Paladin early game than nerfed MC. Something like Minibot becoming a 2/1 or Muster giving a 4th dude instead of the weapon, small but gradual.
Secrets is just midrange Paladin with hero power synergy swapped out for a secrets package.
I'd much rather they nerfed Paladin early game than nerfed MC. Something like Minibot becoming a 2/1 or Muster giving a 4th dude instead of the weapon, small but gradual.
But did anyone ever really complain about Midrange Pally?
Just played two of those new Renolocks in a row with dragon priest. I dunno. Doesn't seem like a super strong deck to me. They both got to drop Reno AND Jaraxxus and I beat them both down anyway. Guess it'd be a pretty good deck against midrange hunter/druid, though, which destroy my deck.
Have to agree. I spent a lot of dust on creating a demonlock and then renolock deck. It's a bit 50/50, definitely not as powerful as my midrange druid deck.
0
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Secrets is just midrange Paladin with hero power synergy swapped out for a secrets package.
I'd much rather they nerfed Paladin early game than nerfed MC. Something like Minibot becoming a 2/1 or Muster giving a 4th dude instead of the weapon, small but gradual.
But did anyone ever really complain about Midrange Pally?
*raises hand*
but only because it was a bad matchup for Control Warrior. It was never actually that good.
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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I personally run both in Inner Fire Priest, over something like Echoing Ooze, but then I've only played classical pre-Djinni inner fire decks, so maybe going all-in on mass buffs is better now. Lightspawn is an alt win condition since it doesn't need Inner Fire to get the kill, and Dragonkin is the next-best minion to go off on with the standard combo other than Deathlord (and is more likely to enter your turn undamaged than either Deathlord or Lightspawn).
I don't think you understand the point of a control deck from that last sentence. You want literally the maximum amount of board clears and hard removal you can get. In fact, I'd probably advocate for Wild Pyromancer in that deck, to help even more with Paladins. Along with, ideally, the doomhammer+rockbiter setup, which allows both multi-target big stuff removal (may need to add in healbots to go with the healing waves if you do this) as well as giving you a way to actually kill the opponent when the situation calls for it, as well as being more early removal as well.
I would definitely say Sylvanas doesn't have a place in this deck without Reincarnate shenanigans, and those shenanigans would almost surely make the deck worse. She's just too slow in literally every matchup but like Control Warrior, and shaman is favored against cwar anyway (important: DO NOT activate Charged Hammer against warrior, you want to have a full complement of totems as much as you can against them).
Also probably BGH has a spot in that deck. Lets you not waste a hex on Boom, which is big for Secret Pally since you need all the hexes you can get. And even other decks, BGHing boom lets you like, hex belchers or shredders to stabilize the board.
Edit: Booo, rockbiter can only target friendlies. Coulda been a BGH combo otherwise.
Lots of cool ideas in that thread! Recommended to fellow shaman experimenters. Now to find a place for frost giant...
Now to find some frost giants! I want them for my OTK warrior, might work better than moltens in a more traditional cwar shell.
10/10, would play Dis Card again. Hilarious and catches people offguard.
2008, 2012, 2014 D&D "Rare With No Sauce" League Fantasy Football Champion!
Definitely gonna try this out later on. It's basically every single version of Zoo ever crammed into one deck, plus Reno. Mite b gud?
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
.... challenge accepted.
Not really, I had a game of Dis Card where I had done 11 damage to myself by turn 4. A dedicated suicide zoo deck would be pretty damn bad.
also reno zoo not having brann? that's actually silly.
reno sort of doesn't feel like it fits in zoo but regardless the deck will be relatively solid. ie better than any rogue deck most likely.
Anyway, the worst thing about all the freeze mages coming back, besides having to play against freeze mage, is now I guess wrong on the mulligan 90% of the time.
I mean, I didn't make the deck, I just found the list. You absolutely could toss Brann in there, probably subbing out for Harvest Golem?
I'd even think about adding Enhance-o Mechano in there too.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I'm really iffy on Reliquary Seeker, personally. It can certainly be a good card but you need a deck that can reliably flood the board for it to not be trash, and as we all know Reno decks aren't the most consistent. Plus I'd rather keep Golem in, that only has 3 3 drops right now and Void Terror isn't really a 3 drop. Yeah, you can 1 drop + tap on 3, but I'd rather have more of a chance to actually curve correctly.
Edit: Get Disguised Toast to do it, he's good with graphics.
To the person asking about Alex above, I don't think she fits in dragon priest.
I'll have a crack at it when the next Power Rank is up if someone reminds me.
Goodnight!
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/fireside-gatherings/16079
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
Switch ID: MNC Dover SW-1154-3107-1051
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...And I pull a Loot Hoarder. I drop him and ping it with my hero. The Shaman tried to BM me with "Thanks", so I burn him down with the last Fireball that I just topdecked with the Loot Hoarder draw and replay with my own "Thanks". As the screen fades I see his "Oops" pop up. *fireworks*
I'd be tempted, but can't, I fly out of the country the day before
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When I first started playing, I chose Hunter as my main class...way before finding out how much everyone hated him. I really liked the sneakiness Secrets brought to the game. Was it Explosive? Snipe? Freezing? I even tried to make Paladin and Mage work with no success.
So as much as I love Secrets, Mysterious Challenger is just way too much. 6 mana 6/6 that puts 5 mana of Secrets into play? What's worse is the hidden additional value of thinning your deck making future draws even better.
MC makes Secrets Paladin viable but is too strong in my opinion. Nerfing the body won't do anything (although it couldn't hurt) so I think the fix is in the Secrets part. Either put way less of them into play (say 2-3 tops) or add them to your hand instead.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Would the lose cards possibly balance it? As in yes they get 5 secrets played but lose either all cards in their hand or lose the top # cards from the deck. I don't really know, but just thinking of ways Blizzard had balanced an overpowered card before launching it.
Steam: betsuni7
Yeah, I'd be OK with this. At least you'd be able to deal with the MC before worrying about Christmas.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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You could kill the deck by killing the Challenger of course, but its not like generic Aggrodin is bad so long as Divine Favor remains a card too.
I could definitely see MC as a 6/3 body being much more balanced, leaving the rest of it as it is.
The "drawing secrets to hand instead of playing them" would definitely be a big nerf as well- you'd have to worry about overdrawing and wouldn't really want to drop him on turn 5/6... Not to mention having to actually pay the mana for the secrets.
I just beat a Mech Reno Mage who kept BM emoting after every play. I got him to 6HP and popped his Ice Block. He responds by playing Reno and clearing my board. I reload and the game continues back and forth.
In the end, I drop Tirion and play Redemption with a 6/2 MC left on the board. He responds with Antonidas, x2 Armor Plating, and Cloaking Field. Oh yeah, non-stop "I'm sorry" emotes. I punch his face with MC, Tirion, and equip a Truesilver getting him to down to 14HP. He counters by Fireballing my face (taking me to 10) and Blizzarding my board causing my MC to come back as a 6/1. Again, non-stop BMs.
I "Well Played" and attack with MC and Truesilver, then Owl Tirion for lethal.
Funnily enough, he didn't accept my friend request after the game.
Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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Fuck this game.
I do have an abundance of dust at the moment. I had saved up enough to make on legendary, and then I got both a duplicate Deathwing and a golden Ragnaros in packs recently.
I have a standard Ragnaros so I know I should shred that to make any other Legendary, but I have been hesitant to do so. Maybe I'll just use him a few times before he goes bye bye.
I'd much rather they nerfed Paladin early game than nerfed MC. Something like Minibot becoming a 2/1 or Muster giving a 4th dude instead of the weapon, small but gradual.
But did anyone ever really complain about Midrange Pally?
Have to agree. I spent a lot of dust on creating a demonlock and then renolock deck. It's a bit 50/50, definitely not as powerful as my midrange druid deck.
*raises hand*
but only because it was a bad matchup for Control Warrior. It was never actually that good.