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StarCraft: Remembering Tossgirl...

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Posts

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    The change in the writing between WCIII, Starcraft, Broodwar and then SC2 (and WoW) makes me wonder what changes occurred at Blizzard among their writers in this time period. It isn't just nostalgia, because I played SC1 and Broodwar right before diving into SC2 and the difference is quite noticeable. While there are still narrative WTFs that occur (the introduction of the UED in Broodwar made no sense based on the SC1 manual history background) the games just oozed atmosphere and style. SC2 in many ways feels like the characters could be from any Milspec Science Fiction setting. It really feels like a cargo cult imitation of the original. What happened inside of Blizzard that caused them from creating great original characters, mood, and settings (or at least a cool refinement/take on something done elsewhere) to something that feels more like an imitation without the same soul to it?

    I can see so many places I would love to see how the Blizzard of SC1/Broodwar would have handled story and character beats in SC2. Taking SC2 on it's own merits, my biggest complaints are probably around how they handle the plot and plot points. Characterizations and individual interactions are well done and I always want to check out what everyone has to say after each mission. There's some great little hidden gems in some of the inspection text as well (Medivac, Spider Mines, Siege Tank, Protoss Research samples).

    MMMig
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    the nova missions are infuriating. like they usually have a cool gimmick or objective, but when youre getting into the groove of things the mission just ends.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Caedwyr wrote: »
    The change in the writing between WCIII, Starcraft, Broodwar and then SC2 (and WoW) makes me wonder what changes occurred at Blizzard among their writers in this time period. It isn't just nostalgia, because I played SC1 and Broodwar right before diving into SC2 and the difference is quite noticeable. While there are still narrative WTFs that occur (the introduction of the UED in Broodwar made no sense based on the SC1 manual history background) the games just oozed atmosphere and style. SC2 in many ways feels like the characters could be from any Milspec Science Fiction setting. It really feels like a cargo cult imitation of the original. What happened inside of Blizzard that caused them from creating great original characters, mood, and settings (or at least a cool refinement/take on something done elsewhere) to something that feels more like an imitation without the same soul to it?

    I can see so many places I would love to see how the Blizzard of SC1/Broodwar would have handled story and character beats in SC2. Taking SC2 on it's own merits, my biggest complaints are probably around how they handle the plot and plot points. Characterizations and individual interactions are well done and I always want to check out what everyone has to say after each mission. There's some great little hidden gems in some of the inspection text as well (Medivac, Spider Mines, Siege Tank, Protoss Research samples).

    The only thing from sc2 that felt like bw writing was General Warfield.

    He was a bonafied bad ass.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    manwiththemachinegun
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    So another fridge logic moment. I have a feeling they are going to be coming faster.

    Everyone knows that Tychus has a gun to his head with being locked in his suit plus someone having the capability to deactivate his organs remotely via the suit. Tychus says that it is the Mobius corporation. Tosh tells you that Tychus is all conflicted about what he feels he is going to do and also that there is a traitor on board. Even allowing for some loyalty blindness on Raynor's side, wouldn't you think that with having the high muckety-mucks of the Mobius Corporation around someone would say "let Tychus out of his suit". Apparently no one seems to care about the gaping security hole there of having a key team member compromised by a gun to their head.

    Also, the transition from the Korhal mission directly to the Char mission was a bit jarring. It probably would have made more sense to have a few more joint forces missions with Warfield before throwing them all together like that. Of course that would make it a bit harder to have everyone act like idiots and stand around chatting in orbit, giving Kerrigan an opportunity to respond. Then again, Raynor doesn't seem to feel things are all that urgent either, so maybe he is just as much of an idiot as the rest.

    MMMig
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Oh very. much. so.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited February 13
    I finished up the final missions of the Terran campaign and they actually felt more like BW or original SC missions. Those who said that Warfield would have fit into the older games were right in my opinion. I also played the first few missions of the Zerg campaign. If I go with the Xel'Naga de-zergifying device plot device, these are starting out pretty well. I do take a bit of issue with the "Story up to here" summary that states that Raynor splits with Mengsk over leaving Kerrigan behind. It was partially that, but he was pretty much ready to leave when the Tarsonis incident went down (Kerrigan was more willing to go along with Mengsk, but Raynor was pissed beforehand).

    Edit: Got to the ice moon and Kerrigan just went hard into the "what's wrong with a little genocide and a few atrocities?" and had a fun bit of equating Zerg deaths with Terran/Protoss deaths. For a character that the plot is trying to tell me is a "good guy", they are certainly going about it the wrong way. If Kerrigan made a bit more of an effort to try to negotiate, or the story did a bit more to sell her feeling she had no other options it would be one thing, but after the opening it is pretty much like a switch is flipped and she just turns back into Queen of Blades.

    Caedwyr on
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Wow, it gets worse.

    Protoss: "You could just leave and not kill everyone you meet."
    Kerrigan: LOL, only a loser would run.
    Protoss: ...

    When they force Kerrigan to be the hero of the story the whiplash is going to be incredibly intense.

    Caedwyr on
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited February 14
    Did the Zerg homeworld stuff. It was fairly well done and I enjoyed it. Zeratul just showing up right after I finished committing an atrocity against the Protoss with no comment seemed a bit off and seemed like the type of thing that he might have been helpful in clearing up in advance without Kerrigan having to go completely omnicidal. If I had done Char first and then Ice Moon I think it would have been worse as you would have already had Shakuras-linked Zeratul in contact with Kerrigan as a possible way out of having to be in conflict with the Protoss and just had Kerrigan go "nope, killing em all anyways".

    Or maybe I chose the wrong route and accidentally picked the genocide path. I'll have to play it again making the other choices to see what changed.

    I started the missions on Char as well. First couple are pretty good with getting the forces back from Zagara. I liked the sound file that plays when you kill her with regular troops and Kerrigan isn't present. She is so indignant, it's great.

    Missions remain fun as always. I am enjoying the more RPGish elements of the Zerg campaign.

    Caedwyr on
    kimeMMMigDark Raven XKwoaruGoodKingJayIIINartwakSynthesis
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Did the rest up to Korhal. This is actually pretty good and there's a lot less weird characterization than in the WoL missions. The Protoss missions on the ice moon are actually something of an anomally. I wonder if a different set of writers did that section and didn't talk closely with the rest of the team. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened in a Blizzard game, though I can never figure out how something like that gets past their QA/QC process. The Protoss missions really feel out of place with the rest of the characterization and tone of the missions.

    Dhalphir
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    edited February 16
    I finished Heart of the Swarm. If you buy in to the story and character changes in WoL then HotS is much better aside from the terrible protoss missions. I still wish we'd gotten the sequels to BW in tone and style but HotS on the whole was enjoyable.

    The reversion to Queen of Blades Kerrigan wasn't really given the time it needed to breath or at least convey the emotional and mental struggle she goes through. There is a fair bit of storytelling shorthand used and I think the better move would have been to put her with the Hyperion crew a bit longer so she could interact with non zerg and actually be able to have feelings and non-power struggle interactions. The way they tell the story you just get a lit of tough person Kerrigan and the interactions with Horner and Valerian come mostly too late to have much impact on how we see her character. Plus Tosh or Nova interactions could have been fun.

    Kerrigan forgetting entirely about Duran and nit recognizing Narud when she meets him is weird having recently played BW.

    Caedwyr on
    MMMig
  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    One of these days I’ll get around to playing the zerg and protoss campaigns. Back in 2010 all the terran missions played really well, a lot of them with some really unique elements and objectives.

    Battletag: Threeve#1501
    PSN: Threeve703
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    The zerg ones are fun. The unit upgrades are nuts almost any way you go.

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    WingedWeasel
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Zerg more than Terran teaches lots of bad habits. Zerglings that automatically resurrect on death after 30 seconds, with speed upgrades and the jumping upgrade are insane. Build 30 zerglings or so and just throw them blindly at any problem. Banelings with the heal other units upgrade when they die, that split. Sure, I'll take that. The roach upgrade that makes it spawn broodlings when it kills an enemy. So many of the units are just completely overpowered that it doesn't really matter what you do. Also, all the missions can be soloed by Kerrigan herself quite easily. (on normal anyways).

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Just left the planet in the Protoss campaign. So far it is okay as a sequel to the previous 2 episodes. I am not sure why Amon has gone to all the trouble he did if he can just take over the entire species like he does. That plot point causes a lot of issues with the that I don't think they thought through, but just did so the could have certain scenes play out. This game is feeling it is starting yo move toward modern WoW storytelling. Good in the moments but disjointed. It is still holding up though and the missions are fun and creative.

  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I hope you like hearing about honor a lot. Protoss campaign was by far the most boring to me, although it did introduce one of the best characters. You'll know who it is when they arrive.

    Twitch Page
    Hearthstone: mncdover#1994
    Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
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    Steam ID
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Artanis doesn't look at the explosion as he slowly walks away. He was styling on those zerg.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    The pacing in this story is weird and it really feels like the plot is starting to meander all over the place. It feels like they wrote themselves into a corner with the Xel'naga and the prophecy and weren't really sure how to get from one pre-plotted cutscene/story moment to the next one. They start just throwing things at the wall to see what works. Some do work, but others end up feeling like they are broken threads. Mr. Tabernac came and visited and there's some good character moments, but it really feels like they didn't do enough to introduce this guy before he decides to join the party. He just kind of shows up out of nowhere.

    The scene where the swarm is broken also comes off as a disconnect between what we saw in the mission and what the story tells us. A better writer could have pulled it off, but they keep on having major events happen offscreen even when the player is supposedly there.

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    I finished the main Protoss Campaign. It was okay. I think it was stronger than Wings of Liberty, but the narrative structure was something of a mess. There were also some rather odd unit limitations that felt like unneeded mechanical restrictions.

    Something I was disappointed with is that throughout all three games there are almost zero missions where you build a base and destroy all the enemy bases on the map. There is almost always a different objective, which is fine, but I think they went a bit too far and it meant that the traditional RTS gameplay almost got ignored in favour of mission-by-mission gimmicks.

    I am playing the epilogue right now and it is pretty bad on several levels. Retroactively makes an old favourite character worse, undoes all the character development, deus ex machina solutions, tentacled ice cream cones become burning angels. Remove all customization abilities that you've enjoyed up to this point over the course of three games. Restricting the player to specific load-outs for their racial customizations can be a way to encourage people to experiment, but don't do it in the very final missions.

    I also disagree with how the three games handled upgrades. It was a good idea, but unsatisfying for no real reason.

    WoL, there is not enough money to unlock all the cash upgrades and mercenaries. By the final mission everything should really have been unlocked. Let the player have fun with their toys. A way of allowing this would be to give more money rewards for completing the missions on higher difficulties. Complete everything on Brutal and you get enough to unlock everything for example. The Zerg/Protoss upgrades being a fixed choice was also unfortunate. Let the player switch between the two so they can try both.

    The Zerg/Protoss way of handling the racial upgrades was a bit better (Kerrigan and the Spear of Adun), but the zerg having to choose between specializations for their units and not just allowing the player to change them up on a mission by mission setup was disappointing.

  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    I assume the lack of traditional "build base fight armies" was because the single player was intended to be a different experience. I guess? There's an argument that co-op and multiplayer or even playing vs ai is available but it is something that I noticed playing through as well

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Yeah, I thought they were working from a similar assumption, but it would have been nice to have at least a few more "build base and wipe out enemy" missions.

    The arbitrary restrictions on Dark Archon mind control were also annoying. As soon as you get them, about half the enemies are just flat out immune. I'm fine with hybrids being immune, but why all the other units? I was also sad that none of the terran, zerg, or protoss mind control units could steal workers capable of building a base :bigfrown: .

  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    this is, imo, a particularly funny cast. last match of the last group of the ro32

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=MoFZPVMM6nU

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    So for the past few weeks I've been obsessed with Nuclear Throne. It's a game that's all too easy to boot up when you have a bit of down time, play a couple of rounds, and then inevitably ragequit just as easily.

    Anyway that game relies on such twitch precision that playing it seems to have somehow upped my StarCraft game considerably. For a long time, like I think a lot of more casual players, 60 APM was a tough hump to get over. I decided to go back to playing a few vs AI skirmishes in SC2 this evening and, like magic, I'm playing 100+ APM games and still feeling like there's more I could be doing to be more attentive and reactive. And this is after having taken a break from the game and before that, mainly just playing the laid back Terran campaign.

    Obviously 100 APM is still not really all that amazing in the grand scheme of things, but I'm pretty proud! And it wasn't even practicing the actual game that did it for me.

    VariableIanatorWingedWeasel
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    100 apm can get you to platinum-diamond level. That apm with some good strategies is above the majority of players.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
    WingedWeasel
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited February 25
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    100 apm can get you to platinum-diamond level. That apm with some good strategies is above the majority of players.

    That's great news! Now all I need is strategy :P

    It definitely helps that I'm not really having to look out for clever human tricks and can mechanically churn out a trash tier build and mush it against my opponent. We'll see how it holds up when things start going awry. But it's definitely faster than I've ever been able to play before, which is promising to me.

    A thing: Uhhhhh how do screen hotkeys work in SC2? Even though I've been familiar with StarCraft for most of my life, I actually only started using them after watching Day9's Let's Learn SC videos and fucking around in Remastered. Now my function keys are being used for other stuff!

    Edit: Mystery solved! They're just further down the function key row than in BW.

    BloodySloth on
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Game Designer/Stay-at-home Dad Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Don't know if anyone here applies, or even cares, but Twitch Prime members get a free Co-Op commander for the next three months. Simply log in and claim your reward.

    Starting today and running through March, you get the Abathur:Evolved bundle. April is giving away Swann: Machined and May is Vorazun: Nerazim.

    So go get your free shit!

    Twitch Page
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    Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
    3DS: 1934-0659-5183
    Steam ID
    WingedWeaselKoopahTroopahkimeFrem
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    MNC Dover wrote: »
    Don't know if anyone here applies, or even cares, but Twitch Prime members get a free Co-Op commander for the next three months. Simply log in and claim your reward.

    Starting today and running through March, you get the Abathur:Evolved bundle. April is giving away Swann: Machined and May is Vorazun: Nerazim.

    So go get your free shit!

    I gotta remember to actually tie my twitch and b.net stuff. I have all the commanders but it looks like you get the voicepacks too? If they don't have dehaka I'll probably never switch from abathur but free stuff is free stuff

  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Since we are talking about Co-op commanders, I just saw this for the first time while working my way through all the SC Carbot animations:

    MMMigDhalphirKruite
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    So results spoilers...
    I guess serral is mortal? Innovation apparently just took him down. Not eliminated but the streak over 12 months undeafeated on lan is over

    MMMig
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    So results spoilers...
    I guess serral is mortal? Innovation apparently just took him down. Not eliminated but the streak over 12 months undeafeated on lan is over
    wow, I didn't bother watching since inno had nothing to play for. I wonder if serral let down since I don't think the series mattered. I'll try and go back to it later.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
  • WingedWeaselWingedWeasel Registered User regular
    Variable wrote: »
    So results spoilers...
    I guess serral is mortal? Innovation apparently just took him down. Not eliminated but the streak over 12 months undeafeated on lan is over
    wow, I didn't bother watching since inno had nothing to play for. I wonder if serral let down since I don't think the series mattered. I'll try and go back to it later.

    That was my first thought as well but I need to watch the series myself. Just seeing results on Twitter

  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    this usually applies to terran players but it's true right now watching serral

    I do not understand how sometimes an army splits in two directions at the same time. how can you be that fast that my eyes can't perceive which of the groups you started moving first? it's amazing to me. sometimes marines will head in 3 separate directions all at once! how in the world! it honestly feels like there's a command I don't know about that just scatters your units.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
    BloodySlothWingedWeaselkime
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt (effective against the Irish) Registered User regular
    edited March 6
    I would presume preselected army groups, because then it's 1, click, 5, click, 6, click, maybe with a tab or two thrown in there for breaking out particular units.

    Gabriel_Pitt on
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    Well I finally tried to shake off my ladder anxiety and left the nurturing bosom of Vs. AI to finish my placement matches for Ranked in SC2. At least unlike Brood War, there are still awful rusty scrubs like me playing this, and I settled into Silver 3. I feel comfortable in my upward mobility, though. Playing against even a bad human player is entirely different from the AI. Even if the Very Hard AI is too tough for me to overcome right now, the fact that they never harass or try to play tricks on you makes VS AI matches a bit of a diminishing returns scenario for learning to get better.

    I've also been trying to catch up on GSL; recently I've only been paying attention to ASL/KSL since SC2 had become unfamiliar to me. Maru is scary, even when he's losing.

    SealWingedWeaselVariableMMMigDhalphir
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    And I just made Gold! +101 MMR in one match. That seems excessive. Is that excessive?

    MMMigWingedWeaselBouwsT
  • VariableVariable Mouth Congress Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    https://www.sc2links.com/tournament/?match=597

    spoiler free links to the WESG tourney that just ended. gonna spoil some stuff in spoilers
    Third Place is scarlett vs maru. the link jumps into game 1 like 20+ minutes but there's still almost an hour of game to watch (and I'm not done yet...). some might find it boring but it's exactly what it sounds like, nukes, positioning, long distance mining, fighting over scraps. I am enjoying it.

    finals are innovation vs serral. I'm watching the third place match first and trying not to spoil myself but no matter how it goes it'll be a good watch.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | Switch-SW 6960 6688 8388 | Steam | Twitch
    WingedWeasel
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited March 23
    Dark v her0 in tonight's GSL:
    Those Nyduses were savage. I commend her0 for being coolheaded enough to even stay in the game that long.

    BloodySloth on
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