It's just an odd choice. I see it as equivalent to spotlighting Street Fighter II over V. The Smash community at large needs to accept that it's not 2002 anymore.
So you're saying that they are wrong for enjoying Melee and should stop playing it? All that matters is that there's a huge demand for the game; more people are serious about playing Melee right now than SF2 or Third Strike, which is why it's different. It's certainly debatable whether they should have put Smash 4 in instead, but neither choice is a stupid one from Evo's perspective.
It's also important to realize that the Smash community is very divided. Only a small portion of the Melee community play Smash 4 competitively, since it's just a completely different game and not really for them, and vice versa. People like me who are really into both are in the minority.
It's just an odd choice. I see it as equivalent to spotlighting Street Fighter II over V. The Smash community at large needs to accept that it's not 2002 anymore.
So you're saying that they are wrong for enjoying Melee and should stop playing it?
Absolutely not. I'll just never understand why it was spotlighted over 4.
It's just an odd choice. I see it as equivalent to spotlighting Street Fighter II over V. The Smash community at large needs to accept that it's not 2002 anymore.
So you're saying that they are wrong for enjoying Melee and should stop playing it?
Absolutely not. I'll just never understand why it was spotlighted over 4.
It was definitely a close call; the entry numbers for the two games was very close. I guess they just figured Melee would be the more hype game to showcase, since it's faster paced. It winded up getting a fuckton of viewers, so you can't say that it was a bad call. Both top 8s were extremely good, so it would have been fine either way IMO.
There was no danger of Smash 4 Finals being on the Sunday at all. Melee always gets top priority for several reasons (bias mostly) even when the number of entrants for 4 are higher and although it doesn't go along with my personal preference I can see why it's done. The crying from the Melee fanbase if the reverse happened however would've been glorious.
But until Sakurai gives them a game that's to their requirements and views of what Smash should be (and they'll probably won't accept anything but Melee HD at this point) they won't move on.
I think they both should have been a Sunday event based purely on the amount of entrants for Smash4 and Melee. To me that is what should be priority, not some arbitrary bias or whatever.
The issue I have with it has less to do with Melee and more to do with EVO. You have both Smash4 and Melee with over 2k entrants each, Smash 4 being second only to SFV, and then Smash 4 gets treated like a side event? I accept the Melee bias over Smash4, I don't think that will ever go away and no matter what the community will always view Melee as more important whatever - who cares, it is what it is. I never had interest in Melee and just don't see myself caring any time soon but if people are into it I have no problem with that, and alot of people are so that's very cool.
What I have a serious issue with here is that you have Mortal Kombat XL, MvC3, and Guilty Gear Xrd: Revelator get a Sunday spot on the big stage - all with substantially less entrants than Smash4. I'm sorry but there is IMO a clear bias against Smash4 in general and I don't understand why.
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I have a feeling it's Capcom that made SFV the final event for Sunday. If it was up to the community I bet it'd be a different game.
Capcom is directly selling to the competitive crowd. Nintendo doesn't care, which is why there were ads for Starfox instead of OFFICIAL FIRST PARTY SMASH FIGHT STICKS.
Smash 4 got a primetime slot on Saturday. I think that's fine? I mean, Melee is the reason it's even at EVO so I don't have a problem with it.
Melee can be fun to watch for a little bit, but whenever i watch its just fox marth and sheik zipping around and then hungrybox shows up with jigglypuff and its a snoozefest. While 4 might not be as fast, people play a ton more characters so the matches can be wildly different from one to the next.
It sort of feels like everything in melee is a known quantity and most games just come down to prediction, while in 4 due to the number of viable characters there is just a lot more involved. I could see why people who play melee wouldnt want to learn a ton of new matchups, its easier to just stick with what you know. theres also something to be said about not acruing hand and wrist damage playing 4 as wwll though. Pretty sure its partially the reason m2k says he plays 4, he just cant physically play melee anymore.
He was full of shit or is just reckless, because he was playing melee at evo.
Also Smash 4 is lucky to have patches, because the tournaments would have been nothing but Diddy, Sheik, Sonic and Luigi without balance patches. Bayonetta in particular was looking to become the Metaknight of 4.
+1
CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
Balance patches were the best new feature of Smash 4.
Yeah, and as much shit as people give Melee for the lack of diversity, I think Brawl is worse by far.
And Melee had seven characters in the top 8 to Smash 4's eight. I know that's a little disingenuous since Smash 4 also has different characters in the top 8 this year, but it also had a year of DLC and balance patches so it's a wash.
Yeah, and as much shit as people give Melee for the lack of diversity, I think Brawl is worse by far.
And Melee had seven characters in the top 8 to Smash 4's eight. I know that's a little disingenuous since Smash 4 also has different characters in the top 8 this year, but it also had a year of DLC and balance patches so it's a wash.
It's hard for me to judge this stuff since Smash4 is the only Smash game I have ever played, but whenever I've tried to watch Melee or Brawl I just can't get into it.
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I don't think there's an issue with the diversity in how many characters are represented in Melee, to me it's just stale cause it's never going to change. Nothing new will probably be discovered that'll mix it up since it's a near 15 year old game and the difference in quality to the best 5-6 players to everyone else means that it's always the same at the top apart from a random hot streak and even then it doesn't mean a tournie win.
Smash 4 on the other hand is in it's 2nd year still with balance patches that stopped possible Metaknight level silliness with release Diddy and Bayonetta and tweaked Shiek a little to stop her beating every other character with how super safe she was. Players have also levelled up and are continuing to do so and so we're seeing character specialists winning or challenging for Majors which is a far cry from Zero just outright winning everything last year. This will obv settle at some point now that the patches are probably done had but right now it's fun to see how the competitve side is evolving.
I watched the last two sets of SSB4 and am halfway through the Melee Top 8 right now.
Personally I find Melee a lot more fun to watch. Between SBB4's ledge mechanics and overall slower pace, there seems to be too much survivability. It's nice to see other characters, at least.
I watched the last two sets of SSB4 and am halfway through the Melee Top 8 right now.
Personally I find Melee a lot more fun to watch. Between SBB4's ledge mechanics and overall slower pace, there seems to be too much survivability. It's nice to see other characters, at least.
The thing about Smash 4 is that stocks can be taken very quickly, and frequently are. But occasionally people manage to avoid getting edgeguarded and survive beyond the point where they can be put in 50/50 situations, and then games can get a little long. It's the reason why there's so much debate about whether or not 3-stock is a viable option; it seems like games are fast enough that you could add a stock, but they are potentially very long. Especially when certain matchups happen; Rosalina matches usually don't take that long, but when she's up against someone like Villager, then it takes a really long time for either of them to die.
As opposed to Melee, which hardly ever goes long. At least, now that Armada picks Fox instead of Young Link against Hungrybox.
I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
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I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
I find it weird people find Hungrybox boring to watch (assuming you like watching Melee). He can be quite defensive, but that's kinda of the nature of puff? It's just real fluid and cool to watch Rest setups.
I was super hype about the Smash4 finals in EVO this year, it really rocked seeing a MegaMan do that well! Also Ally being a Mario main is exciting too.
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Melee definitely runs long as far as your typical FGC game goes. To put it in perspective, each individual round of Street Fighter can only last 99 seconds. If every single round ran to time, an individual match could only run 297 seconds, or just under five minutes, and most rounds ended (according to my vague memories) around the 30-60 second mark. Melee, on the other hand, has a maximum match time of 8 minutes (with stocks instead of individual rounds), and I frequently saw the games go to four or five minutes each. Or, to put it another way, the Melee games at EVO were as though every Street Fighter round went to time.
Smash 4 might actually finish faster than Melee, simply because of the two-stock limit and the maximum round time being capped at six minutes.
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I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
Will never understand how Street Fighter can be described as "accessible".
I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
Will never understand how Street Fighter can be described as "accessible".
I mean, it's by comparison to other fighting games. The windows to link your actions together are wider, the animations on the whole are a little slower, you get more opportunities to return to a guard state, characters have fewer unique mechanics or individual resources, and so on. It's still a hell of a game to get into from square one, but compared to Guilty Gear or Blazblue, it's relatively simple.
My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
Will never understand how Street Fighter can be described as "accessible".
I mean, it's by comparison to other fighting games. The windows to link your actions together are wider, the animations on the whole are a little slower, you get more opportunities to return to a guard state, characters have fewer unique mechanics or individual resources, and so on. It's still a hell of a game to get into from square one, but compared to Guilty Gear or Blazblue, it's relatively simple.
I don't know about V, but IV was absolutely not more accessible - it is far easier to string a combo of any sort in basically anything else.
I'll grant unique mechanics, but SF also uses a lot more simultaneous button presses than other fighters do, which is a good way to get issues with timing them.
I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
Will never understand how Street Fighter can be described as "accessible".
I mean, it's by comparison to other fighting games. The windows to link your actions together are wider, the animations on the whole are a little slower, you get more opportunities to return to a guard state, characters have fewer unique mechanics or individual resources, and so on. It's still a hell of a game to get into from square one, but compared to Guilty Gear or Blazblue, it's relatively simple.
I don't know about V, but IV was absolutely not more accessible - it is far easier to string a combo of any sort in basically anything else.
I'll grant unique mechanics, but SF also uses a lot more simultaneous button presses than other fighters do, which is a good way to get issues with timing them.
Yeah I never could consistently get a FADC Ultra 1 with Ryu in SFIV off, especially in the heat of a match. Best I could ever do was like 5/10 attempts in training mode, and that was with like dozens of hours just repeatedly practicing that one sequence over and over.
That's one thing I really like about Smash4 - I don't have to learn that kind of stuff to be reasonably competitive.
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I think I'm the opposite of most fighting game fans in that after a certain point some fighting games become too fast for me to be interested in them. I watch Melee and MvC3 and I'm like...yeeaaahh ok whatever. I prefer the slower pace and longer more defensive matches in Smash4, I find them more fun to watch.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
Will never understand how Street Fighter can be described as "accessible".
I mean, it's by comparison to other fighting games. The windows to link your actions together are wider, the animations on the whole are a little slower, you get more opportunities to return to a guard state, characters have fewer unique mechanics or individual resources, and so on. It's still a hell of a game to get into from square one, but compared to Guilty Gear or Blazblue, it's relatively simple.
I don't know about V, but IV was absolutely not more accessible - it is far easier to string a combo of any sort in basically anything else.
I'll grant unique mechanics, but SF also uses a lot more simultaneous button presses than other fighters do, which is a good way to get issues with timing them.
Yeah I never could consistently get a FADC Ultra 1 with Ryu in SFIV off, especially in the heat of a match. Best I could ever do was like 5/10 attempts in training mode, and that was with like dozens of hours just repeatedly practicing that one sequence over and over.
That's one thing I really like about Smash4 - I don't have to learn that kind of stuff to be reasonably competitive.
Oh, yeah. SF5 is more accessible than SF4, and the Smash games are definitely more accessible than SF5. But some other fighting games, and especially Marvel, make SF4 look like slow motion. You get touched once in Marvel and you have a dead character, and your next character also has a roughly 25% chance of survival before they hit the ground. Good luck learning how to deal with that.
At least the newest Guilty Gear game has an extremely good tutorial. The best I've ever seen in a fighting game. It's still a very difficult game to learn, though.
+1
CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
So I was thinking the other day that with the rumored Smash 4 Switch hopefully getting new characters, now would be a good time to add a grass type starter Pokemon to the roster. I know Sceptile was the previous frontrunner for most Smash ready grass starter.
However, I think the one from Sun & Moon's would be an even better choice.
Decidueye
Not only is it in the new hotness game, but it seems very fighting game ready, similar to Greninja. Plus, i'm sure Sakurai's OCD is eating away at him that there is no grass starter rep in Smash 4.
Seems like a Pit/Charizard mix would be pretty good.
Neutral B, arrows obviously
Up-B, Fly (just shoot him up like it does Pit)
Side-B could be Brave Bird, which is basically a flying type flair blitz
Down-B i'm not too sure what would work. Maybe some kind of healing move like Synthesis, or something like Seed bomb, similar to Ivysaur's from PM.
CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
edited November 2016
Well Decidueye is a grass/ghost type, so maybe they could do something with its secondary typing.
Also, it's not like having Link already shooting arrows stopped them from adding Pit (and Dark Pit). Now maybe if Decidueye had a sword and was from Fire Emblem instead...
Seems like a Pit/Charizard mix would be pretty good.
Neutral B, arrows obviously
Up-B, Fly (just shoot him up like it does Pit)
Side-B could be Brave Bird, which is basically a flying type flair blitz
Down-B i'm not too sure what would work. Maybe some kind of healing move like Synthesis, or something like Seed bomb, similar to Ivysaur's from PM.
It's signature move seems to involve attacking from the enemy's shadow or something? So I could see a similar Down+B to Greninja, except you don't move and instead arrows fly back towards you out of the spot (or just a diagonal spike of ghostliness).
Alola Exeggcutor is a stage. Fighters are on a rising platform ascending into the sky up Exeggcutor's neck in order to reach its head. You never reach its head.
+4
CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
Pokefloats 2: This time it's just the back of an Exeggutor's neck.
Been thinking about what new characters we'll see in Smash 4 Switch too.
I doubt we'll ever see Snake show up again, despite Konami saying they'll support the Switch. So how about a character who's also a soldier and experienced with explosive weapons?
Sami from Advance Wars.
You could easily give some of Snake's old moves to Sami and they would suit her perfectly, plus give her her own unique attacks. Plus, with all the love Smash has given Fire Emblem, it's only fair Nintendo's other strategy series gets a bit of representation.
We're not going to see Snake, or it's very unlikely. He was in the game because Kojima and Sakurai are friends, and I think it'd be something of a betrayal for Sakurai to do anything with Konami after their mistreatment of Kojima.
I'd love to see Advance Wars characters, but the franchise has been more or less dead for nearly a decade now.
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So you're saying that they are wrong for enjoying Melee and should stop playing it? All that matters is that there's a huge demand for the game; more people are serious about playing Melee right now than SF2 or Third Strike, which is why it's different. It's certainly debatable whether they should have put Smash 4 in instead, but neither choice is a stupid one from Evo's perspective.
It's also important to realize that the Smash community is very divided. Only a small portion of the Melee community play Smash 4 competitively, since it's just a completely different game and not really for them, and vice versa. People like me who are really into both are in the minority.
Absolutely not. I'll just never understand why it was spotlighted over 4.
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It was definitely a close call; the entry numbers for the two games was very close. I guess they just figured Melee would be the more hype game to showcase, since it's faster paced. It winded up getting a fuckton of viewers, so you can't say that it was a bad call. Both top 8s were extremely good, so it would have been fine either way IMO.
But until Sakurai gives them a game that's to their requirements and views of what Smash should be (and they'll probably won't accept anything but Melee HD at this point) they won't move on.
The issue I have with it has less to do with Melee and more to do with EVO. You have both Smash4 and Melee with over 2k entrants each, Smash 4 being second only to SFV, and then Smash 4 gets treated like a side event? I accept the Melee bias over Smash4, I don't think that will ever go away and no matter what the community will always view Melee as more important whatever - who cares, it is what it is. I never had interest in Melee and just don't see myself caring any time soon but if people are into it I have no problem with that, and alot of people are so that's very cool.
What I have a serious issue with here is that you have Mortal Kombat XL, MvC3, and Guilty Gear Xrd: Revelator get a Sunday spot on the big stage - all with substantially less entrants than Smash4. I'm sorry but there is IMO a clear bias against Smash4 in general and I don't understand why.
Capcom is directly selling to the competitive crowd. Nintendo doesn't care, which is why there were ads for Starfox instead of OFFICIAL FIRST PARTY SMASH FIGHT STICKS.
Smash 4 got a primetime slot on Saturday. I think that's fine? I mean, Melee is the reason it's even at EVO so I don't have a problem with it.
It sort of feels like everything in melee is a known quantity and most games just come down to prediction, while in 4 due to the number of viable characters there is just a lot more involved. I could see why people who play melee wouldnt want to learn a ton of new matchups, its easier to just stick with what you know. theres also something to be said about not acruing hand and wrist damage playing 4 as wwll though. Pretty sure its partially the reason m2k says he plays 4, he just cant physically play melee anymore.
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Also Smash 4 is lucky to have patches, because the tournaments would have been nothing but Diddy, Sheik, Sonic and Luigi without balance patches. Bayonetta in particular was looking to become the Metaknight of 4.
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And Melee had seven characters in the top 8 to Smash 4's eight. I know that's a little disingenuous since Smash 4 also has different characters in the top 8 this year, but it also had a year of DLC and balance patches so it's a wash.
It's hard for me to judge this stuff since Smash4 is the only Smash game I have ever played, but whenever I've tried to watch Melee or Brawl I just can't get into it.
Smash 4 on the other hand is in it's 2nd year still with balance patches that stopped possible Metaknight level silliness with release Diddy and Bayonetta and tweaked Shiek a little to stop her beating every other character with how super safe she was. Players have also levelled up and are continuing to do so and so we're seeing character specialists winning or challenging for Majors which is a far cry from Zero just outright winning everything last year. This will obv settle at some point now that the patches are probably done had but right now it's fun to see how the competitve side is evolving.
Personally I find Melee a lot more fun to watch. Between SBB4's ledge mechanics and overall slower pace, there seems to be too much survivability. It's nice to see other characters, at least.
The thing about Smash 4 is that stocks can be taken very quickly, and frequently are. But occasionally people manage to avoid getting edgeguarded and survive beyond the point where they can be put in 50/50 situations, and then games can get a little long. It's the reason why there's so much debate about whether or not 3-stock is a viable option; it seems like games are fast enough that you could add a stock, but they are potentially very long. Especially when certain matchups happen; Rosalina matches usually don't take that long, but when she's up against someone like Villager, then it takes a really long time for either of them to die.
As opposed to Melee, which hardly ever goes long. At least, now that Armada picks Fox instead of Young Link against Hungrybox.
Nah, that's not abnormal, even in the FGC. Street Fighter is the most popular fighting game (outside of Japan, at least) for a reason. Marvel can be pretty hype, but it's not nearly as accessible as Street Fighter.
Smash 4 might actually finish faster than Melee, simply because of the two-stock limit and the maximum round time being capped at six minutes.
Will never understand how Street Fighter can be described as "accessible".
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I mean, it's by comparison to other fighting games. The windows to link your actions together are wider, the animations on the whole are a little slower, you get more opportunities to return to a guard state, characters have fewer unique mechanics or individual resources, and so on. It's still a hell of a game to get into from square one, but compared to Guilty Gear or Blazblue, it's relatively simple.
I don't know about V, but IV was absolutely not more accessible - it is far easier to string a combo of any sort in basically anything else.
I'll grant unique mechanics, but SF also uses a lot more simultaneous button presses than other fighters do, which is a good way to get issues with timing them.
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Yeah I never could consistently get a FADC Ultra 1 with Ryu in SFIV off, especially in the heat of a match. Best I could ever do was like 5/10 attempts in training mode, and that was with like dozens of hours just repeatedly practicing that one sequence over and over.
That's one thing I really like about Smash4 - I don't have to learn that kind of stuff to be reasonably competitive.
Oh, yeah. SF5 is more accessible than SF4, and the Smash games are definitely more accessible than SF5. But some other fighting games, and especially Marvel, make SF4 look like slow motion. You get touched once in Marvel and you have a dead character, and your next character also has a roughly 25% chance of survival before they hit the ground. Good luck learning how to deal with that.
At least the newest Guilty Gear game has an extremely good tutorial. The best I've ever seen in a fighting game. It's still a very difficult game to learn, though.
However, I think the one from Sun & Moon's would be an even better choice.
Decidueye
Not only is it in the new hotness game, but it seems very fighting game ready, similar to Greninja. Plus, i'm sure Sakurai's OCD is eating away at him that there is no grass starter rep in Smash 4.
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Pit clone.
Seems like a Pit/Charizard mix would be pretty good.
Neutral B, arrows obviously
Up-B, Fly (just shoot him up like it does Pit)
Side-B could be Brave Bird, which is basically a flying type flair blitz
Down-B i'm not too sure what would work. Maybe some kind of healing move like Synthesis, or something like Seed bomb, similar to Ivysaur's from PM.
Also, it's not like having Link already shooting arrows stopped them from adding Pit (and Dark Pit). Now maybe if Decidueye had a sword and was from Fire Emblem instead...
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It's signature move seems to involve attacking from the enemy's shadow or something? So I could see a similar Down+B to Greninja, except you don't move and instead arrows fly back towards you out of the spot (or just a diagonal spike of ghostliness).
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I doubt we'll ever see Snake show up again, despite Konami saying they'll support the Switch. So how about a character who's also a soldier and experienced with explosive weapons?
Sami from Advance Wars.
You could easily give some of Snake's old moves to Sami and they would suit her perfectly, plus give her her own unique attacks. Plus, with all the love Smash has given Fire Emblem, it's only fair Nintendo's other strategy series gets a bit of representation.
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I'd love to see Advance Wars characters, but the franchise has been more or less dead for nearly a decade now.