In a 1,036-462 vote, delegates from all provinces except Saskatchewan cast majority votes in favour of no longer defining marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
In a 1,036-462 vote, delegates from all provinces except Saskatchewan cast majority votes in favour of no longer defining marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
I love this. Maybe one day we won't have politics as polarized as they are now, with a lot less ideological stances & more strict policy implementation divides between parties.
With Love and Courage
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
In a 1,036-462 vote, delegates from all provinces except Saskatchewan cast majority votes in favour of no longer defining marriage as a union between one man and one woman.
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
I love this. Maybe one day we won't have politics as polarized as they are now, with a lot less ideological stances & more strict policy implementation divides between parties.
Were you able to write that with a straight face, I wonder.
I don't like the food fight. A big step towards ending it is for parties to drop emotionally appealing knee-jerk policy. It's also not healthy for everyone to just be able to dismiss Tory policy out of hand because (for example) they're a bunch of bigots, IMHO.
EDIT: I mean, if you want to frame it as ego-boosting - we just won this fight. White flag is flapping in the wind; no significant political body in Canada will permit LGBT discrimination in their ranks anymore.
I'm with Ender as well. While I have a hard time reconciling any Conservative policy, it makes it a lot easier to listen the less hateful positions they espouse.
I still maintain a steady hope that if the Liberals do get us moved off of first past the post, it'll splinter the CPC back into more granular right-wing parties, some of which might actually have something to offer our country.
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
You don't celebrate delusion because it feeds into the delusion.
If that one cantankerous uncle in your family interrupts Thanksgiving dinner for a BIG announcement, and he finally concedes that maybe the world won't end if the balls touch, when he pauses for your applause, do you buy him a cake and balloons? Or do you tell him, "About fucking time!"?
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
You don't celebrate delusion because it feeds into the delusion.
If that one cantankerous uncle in your family interrupts Thanksgiving dinner for a BIG announcement, and he finally concedes that maybe the world won't end if the balls touch, when he pauses for your applause, do you buy him a cake and balloons? Or do you tell him, "About fucking time!"?
I toast him and drink to that. I mean, it's just better.
I don't see why I would discourage or reprimand a positive change, even if it should have come sooner.
With Love and Courage
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
You don't celebrate delusion because it feeds into the delusion.
If that one cantankerous uncle in your family interrupts Thanksgiving dinner for a BIG announcement, and he finally concedes that maybe the world won't end if the balls touch, when he pauses for your applause, do you buy him a cake and balloons? Or do you tell him, "About fucking time!"?
Depends on you, actually.
Because we're supposed to be working together and if you're of the notion that when someone finally agrees with you that you continue to berate them, then I'm not sure why anyone would ever change their minds at your insistence.
The conservative quote is self serving, but you're saying we should be working at dividing Canada further, not trying to bring everyone together.
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
You don't celebrate delusion because it feeds into the delusion.
If that one cantankerous uncle in your family interrupts Thanksgiving dinner for a BIG announcement, and he finally concedes that maybe the world won't end if the balls touch, when he pauses for your applause, do you buy him a cake and balloons? Or do you tell him, "About fucking time!"?
Yeah I don't know what you want here
The Conservatives to wear a hair shirt for the next five years as penance? There's no universe where that happens
I'm happy with them adopting civilized positions and letting the public discourse fully move on to productive topics
I mean, imagine some completely fucked-up future where whatever the LPC, NDP, CPC, Greens, etc, morph into have a debate / discussion about tax rates or whatever. And they actually just have that discussion, and it's interesting rather than incisive, and when the leaders go to talk on TV it's not all about how the other leaders are liars and they believe this horrible thing. We have a genuine policy argument instead of points-scoring competition where each group tries to pin as much dirt as they can on the other.
Wouldn't that be just Goddamn incredible? Even if in reality it didn't do much for actual policy implementation, it would be so much more engaging. It would mean the end of the era where everyone says they just hate the election season because of how nasty it is.
My chafing isn't at the Conservatives finally voted that way. My chafing is at Rempel's words, which I presume represent the unspoken beliefs of a lot more Conservatives:
"I think our party got a little more Canadian today," Calgary MP Michelle Rempel said after the vote. "It's a milestone and it's not just a milestone for our party, it's a milestone for all Canadians."
"Yes it took us 10 years to get to this point, but I think this is something that is a beacon for people around the world who are looking at equality rights. Canada is a place where we celebrate equality."
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
You don't celebrate delusion because it feeds into the delusion.
If that one cantankerous uncle in your family interrupts Thanksgiving dinner for a BIG announcement, and he finally concedes that maybe the world won't end if the balls touch, when he pauses for your applause, do you buy him a cake and balloons? Or do you tell him, "About fucking time!"?
Depends on you, actually.
Because we're supposed to be working together and if you're of the notion that when someone finally agrees with you that you continue to berate them, then I'm not sure why anyone would ever change their minds at your insistence.
The conservative quote is self serving, but you're saying we should be working at dividing Canada further, not trying to bring everyone together.
Well 1) I'm not going out and finding federal Conservatives and berating them about this, so I don't see how I'm "working at dividing Canada further".
2) I think we're kidding ourselves if we think this policy change for a major political party occurred in no part because they were being "berated", at the polls, and that for a large number of Conservatives, this is more about survival than righteousness.
3) I can be happy with where we are and not be happy with how we got here, and the people who belaboured our getting here, especially if they were intentionally preventing our getting here for a long time. If one of my TAs is submitting marks 2 weeks late, I'm not sending out a congratulatory email when they finally do get me their grades, and I'm sure as hell not inviting my students to applaud them for doing so. I'm still relieved that I can finally release the marks, but they're not doing me a favour by finally not being derelict in their responsibilities, and I'm definitely leaving them hanging if they try for a high-five. (Also, will be giving them a negative evaluation and be warning other instructors about said TA.)
Here's my rule of thumb: If you're doing something for someone else, and they're not celebrating, then you probably shouldn't celebrate either.
Also, I don't write for the Beaverton, but if I did, tomorrow you'd probably see something like:
Conservative Party of Canada: Now only 31% Homophobes!*
* Note, does not include transphobia or any queer identities beyond traditional gay and lesbian identities. Applies only to the provisioning of a specific legal right, and requires religious exemptions providing for passive interference with the availability of said right. Offer not valid in the province of Saskatchewan.
The debate over ticketing, rather than arresting, those found with small amounts of marijuana, also found a good debate.
Former cabinet minister and police chief Julian Fantino told delegates police have been begging for this to happen. In the end the vote carried, but by a smaller margin than the marriage vote: 158-116.
That margin proved insufficient to make the cut to reach the final plenary on Saturday.
On other proposals, delegates voted 177-103 in favour of a motion to condemn gender-selection abortions and 184-59 in favour of conscience rights for medical practitioners asked to perform abortions or assisted suicide against their beliefs.
But another motion to support assisted dying was defeated and will not advance.
Delegates also very enthusiastically supported a proposal that called civilian gun ownership a "Canadian heritage" and was amended to call for a review of all non-essential gun laws.
But try as I might, I cannot find a list of resolution, nor an actual description of the process going on (can the plenary overturn the vote? are there other steps after?).
Can anyone hook me up?
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
I don't like the food fight. A big step towards ending it is for parties to drop emotionally appealing knee-jerk policy. It's also not healthy for everyone to just be able to dismiss Tory policy out of hand because (for example) they're a bunch of bigots, IMHO.
EDIT: I mean, if you want to frame it as ego-boosting - we just won this fight. White flag is flapping in the wind; no significant political body in Canada will permit LGBT discrimination in their ranks anymore.
Touchdown, motherfuckers!
I just meant it more as "do you really think the polarized politics will end?"
I don't like the food fight. A big step towards ending it is for parties to drop emotionally appealing knee-jerk policy. It's also not healthy for everyone to just be able to dismiss Tory policy out of hand because (for example) they're a bunch of bigots, IMHO.
EDIT: I mean, if you want to frame it as ego-boosting - we just won this fight. White flag is flapping in the wind; no significant political body in Canada will permit LGBT discrimination in their ranks anymore.
Touchdown, motherfuckers!
I just meant it more as "do you really think the polarized politics will end?"
Not in my lifetime, no. But perhaps a few generations down the road.
It may never be completely non-polarized, but I hope it will be significantly less venomous.
I don't like the food fight. A big step towards ending it is for parties to drop emotionally appealing knee-jerk policy. It's also not healthy for everyone to just be able to dismiss Tory policy out of hand because (for example) they're a bunch of bigots, IMHO.
EDIT: I mean, if you want to frame it as ego-boosting - we just won this fight. White flag is flapping in the wind; no significant political body in Canada will permit LGBT discrimination in their ranks anymore.
Touchdown, motherfuckers!
I just meant it more as "do you really think the polarized politics will end?"
Not in my lifetime, no. But perhaps a few generations down the road.
It may never be completely non-polarized, but I hope it will be significantly less venomous.
I'm trying to be a bit more optimistic. I mean, last election, three out of five parties ran non-venemous campaigns, and one won a majority on it. Maybe the NDP and CPC will take the hint?
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Caulk Bite 6One of the multitude of Dans infesting this placeRegistered Userregular
Wait, liberals, ndp, cpc, greens who's number five again?
The idea that we should be celebrating the Conservatives for finally getting on the gay marriage bandwagon is ridiculous. The action is as self-serving as the language used to describe it. I don't buy for a second that this is anything other then a political play to regain relevance.
The idea that we should be, what, celebrating them for their nakedly political move is ridiculous.
I mean, imagine some completely fucked-up future where whatever the LPC, NDP, CPC, Greens, etc, morph into have a debate / discussion about tax rates or whatever. And they actually just have that discussion, and it's interesting rather than incisive, and when the leaders go to talk on TV it's not all about how the other leaders are liars and they believe this horrible thing. We have a genuine policy argument instead of points-scoring competition where each group tries to pin as much dirt as they can on the other.
Wouldn't that be just Goddamn incredible? Even if in reality it didn't do much for actual policy implementation, it would be so much more engaging. It would mean the end of the era where everyone says they just hate the election season because of how nasty it is.
This is a small step towards that future.
Is it? Cause I don't think it is in the slightest. I don't see how it could be. It's simply the same people as before dropping a losing issue.
It ain't like this was a major source of partisanship in the first place anyway.
The idea that we should be celebrating the Conservatives for finally getting on the gay marriage bandwagon is ridiculous. The action is as self-serving as the language used to describe it. I don't buy for a second that this is anything other then a political play to regain relevance.
The idea that we should be, what, celebrating them for their nakedly political move is ridiculous.
I don't think anyone except the CPC is celebrating the move. Everyone else is more letting a sigh of relief and going "finally!".
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
The thing is, this pretty much eliminates serious political opposition to equality for LGBT people.
And we're not supposed to be happy about it?
I'm happy about it.
I think it's great.
I don't care why they're doing it. Progress is progress.
If the opposition is willing to adopt positions from "my team" then that is worth celebrating because it means we can stop fighting over that, and in the case that they win, things will be better overall
Ability to compromise like this is also a reason we don't have as massive social issue fights
You don't have to throw a party and cheer them. But I've zero patience for people who get what they want and still act pissy. In fact in my view it raises the question of what you even wanted in the first place. Did you want to win? Did you want them to see what was wrong and change their ways? Or did you just want to scream and be angry at people and fucking annihilate your foes off the face of the earth?
You won. People are finally coming around and realizing hate is not acceptable. And you want to respond to this... with hate? What the hell is wrong with you?
The Wolfman on
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
You don't have to throw a party and cheer them. But I've zero patience for people who get what they want and still act pissy. In fact in my view it raises the question of what you even wanted in the first place. Did you want to win? Did you want them to see what was wrong and change their ways? Or did you just want to scream and be angry at people and fucking annihilate your foes off the face of the earth?
You won. People are finally coming around and realizing hate is not acceptable. And you want to respond to this... with hate? What the hell is wrong with you?
Really? Do the Conservatives realise hate is not acceptable? Or do they just realise that this particular hatred of these particular people in this particular way is unacceptable, because it seems to me that the Conservatives still have plenty of hate to go around. (E.g. towards Muslims.)
I'm sorry, but in the world I live in, you don't get (much) credit for belatedly doing the thing you were (obviously) supposed to have done in the first place. I don't get a bonus for showing up to work late; I don't get marks for submitting an assignment late; I don't get love for proposing late. That doesn't automatically mean I get fired, or that I fail, or that I get dumped, and I might still do a really good job, be a really good student, or be a really good husband, but I would expect a verbal smackdown if I bragged about any of those things.
As for getting what we wanted and still acting pissy? Well, I wanted gay marriage to be legal, and I got that back in 2005, and I'm no pissier today than I was TEN YEARS AGO. Also, I want conservatives to stop being silly geese, and I haven't got that yet. Did I "want" the Conservative Party of Canada to finally support gay marriage in 2015? Fuck no. I couldn't give a shit less about that, and haven't since at least 2005.
Who "won" this week? Ain't nobody won shit, as far as I can tell. Nothing has materially changed since last week; if the Conservative Party of Canada voted down that resolution, gay and lesbian couples would continue marrying each other, because gay and lesbian couples "won" 10 years ago. The rest of it is no more a victory than the tides coming in are a victory for the moon; it was obvious 10 years ago that the CPC would eventually withdraw their opposition to gay and lesbian marriage at some point, so, yay, they choose political relevance over political suicide this weekend. At best, that's a victory for CPC insiders and GLB(TQ?) CPC members; for the rest of us, it was Saturday.
Edit: Not even Gul Dukat would declare victory: "A true victory is to make your enemies see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness!"
You don't have to throw a party and cheer them. But I've zero patience for people who get what they want and still act pissy. In fact in my view it raises the question of what you even wanted in the first place. Did you want to win? Did you want them to see what was wrong and change their ways? Or did you just want to scream and be angry at people and fucking annihilate your foes off the face of the earth?
You won. People are finally coming around and realizing hate is not acceptable. And you want to respond to this... with hate? What the hell is wrong with you?
No, they aren't. They are realising that this particular brand of bigotry is no longer politically viable at the federal level. That's a good thing, but it's not what many people in this thread keep pretending it is. They still think the hate is acceptable, it's just they know they can't talk about it too loudly.
This isn't your uncle who rants about the queers whenever he has a few beers at a family gathering realising the error of his ways and that there's nothing wrong with gay people, it's said uncle realising he's not gonna be allowed to see his grandkids if he keeps it up cause his daughter is putting her foot down and so he's learned to keep his mouth shut at Christmas and confine his antics to chain emails and facebook.
Like, let's be actually realistic here: the Cons have not been openly anti-woman in many of their positions for awhile. They aren't out there publicly saying "Women should be second class citizens". Cause they know that shit is not politically viable federally. They keep their backbenchers in line and get them to keep their idiot mouths shut for the most part. But that didn't stop Harper from spending his decade in power fucking women over every chance he got.
You want another example? They know they can't be publicly against our healthcare system but they sure as fuck wanna drastically change it. They just know it's too popular to attack openly.
This shit is no different. When I hear them talk about this issue at this point in time, all I see is an acknowledgement that they now have to keep their position on the downlow in order to get back into power. Anything else is being naive imo.
shryke on
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My experience is that people don't change their views in most cases. They just start keeping quiet about them. If this is what that is, it's still a win.
Why? Because societal change is generational. Baby boomers are still the same. Millenials will always be the same. But baby boomers are not the same as millenials.
With the Conservatives realizing the public won't stand for bigotry, they're keeping theirs quiet. Which means the new generation of conservative voters grow up without that bigotry as part of the conservative ideal.
You don't have to throw a party and cheer them. But I've zero patience for people who get what they want and still act pissy. In fact in my view it raises the question of what you even wanted in the first place. Did you want to win? Did you want them to see what was wrong and change their ways? Or did you just want to scream and be angry at people and fucking annihilate your foes off the face of the earth?
You won. People are finally coming around and realizing hate is not acceptable. And you want to respond to this... with hate? What the hell is wrong with you?
No, they aren't. They are realising that this particular brand of bigotry is no longer politically viable at the federal level. That's a good thing, but it's not what many people in this thread keep pretending it is. They still think the hate is acceptable, it's just they know they can't talk about it too loudly.
This isn't your uncle who rants about the queers whenever he has a few beers at a family gathering realising the error of his ways and that there's nothing wrong with gay people, it's said uncle realising he's not gonna be allowed to see his grandkids if he keeps it up cause his daughter is putting her foot down and so he's learned to keep his mouth shut at Christmas and confine his antics to chain emails and facebook.
Like, let's be actually realistic here: the Cons have not been openly anti-woman in many of their positions for awhile. They aren't out there publicly saying "Women should be second class citizens". Cause they know that shit is not politically viable federally. They keep their backbenchers in line and get them to keep their idiot mouths shut for the most part. But that didn't stop Harper from spending his decade in power fucking women over every chance he got.
You want another example? They know they can't be publicly against our healthcare system but they sure as fuck wanna drastically change it. They just know it's too popular to attack openly.
This shit is no different. When I hear them talk about this issue at this point in time, all I see is an acknowledgement that they now have to keep their position on the downlow in order to get back into power. Anything else is being naive imo.
Some choice quotes from the Toronto Star's article on this policy vote (bolding is mine):
The resolution passed in large measure because it was a compromise that recognized “the freedom of religious organizations to refuse to perform unions or allow the use of their facilities for events incompatible with their faith and beliefs.”
Kenney told reporters it was “a no-brainer,” adding there was no point having a party declaration that “uses obsolete language about something that was changed in law and society a decade ago.”
But a self-declared social conservative delegate said: “I’m standing in favour of this . . . it’s a workable compromise.”
Party elder and Reform Party founder Preston Manning did not discount an impact on the party of the marriage policy change, saying it would depend on how it is interpreted. He said the party should have taken it a step further and said the state has nothing to do with defining marriage, a measure he said would have satisfied both social conservatives and libertarians in the party. He said eventually, that is where the party should end up.
“As a Christian I define marriage a certain way and I continue to do that regardless of what the state’s position is.”
But several sitting MPs were satisfied with the outcome. Candice Bergen “it was the right policy to pass, it was the right time.” Deepak Obhrai said it brings the party’s stance in line with human rights and brings it to “where the Canadian public is.”
And these were the people who voted FOR the motion.
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I don't understand....are you saying we shouldn't let churches have discretion on who they perform ceremonies for?
Because that'll be new. They've always had that discretion.
I don't understand....are you saying we shouldn't let churches have discretion on who they perform ceremonies for?
Because that'll be new. They've always had that discretion.
I would say the laughable/objectionable part of that is not the bit he highlighted, which is 100% the way it should work, and rather that this part was labelled as a compromise.
Which tells you everything you need to know about the thinking going into this vote.
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One was chief strategist for nenshi and chief of staff for redford, the other ran the Alberta Liberals back before they were a complete joke
Not a photoshop
Which instantly makes me think of:
Like he heard half of a Beastie Boys song and got that shit wrapped up
I love this. Maybe one day we won't have politics as polarized as they are now, with a lot less ideological stances & more strict policy implementation divides between parties.
Were you able to write that with a straight face, I wonder.
I don't like the food fight. A big step towards ending it is for parties to drop emotionally appealing knee-jerk policy. It's also not healthy for everyone to just be able to dismiss Tory policy out of hand because (for example) they're a bunch of bigots, IMHO.
EDIT: I mean, if you want to frame it as ego-boosting - we just won this fight. White flag is flapping in the wind; no significant political body in Canada will permit LGBT discrimination in their ranks anymore.
Touchdown, motherfuckers!
I still maintain a steady hope that if the Liberals do get us moved off of first past the post, it'll splinter the CPC back into more granular right-wing parties, some of which might actually have something to offer our country.
Really? It's a milestone for all Canadians? The rest of us have been waiting at the finish line for years now. Congratulations, you're 9th out of 10 across the finish line; can we go home now?
Which, okay, if you were slow, that's one thing, but you weren't slow so much as you were dragging your ass on purpose. You didn't want to cross the finish line at all, and - let's face it - you only did it because we were yelling at you to do so from the finish line, and now we're supposed to cheer for you like we did for the first person across, or even the second, or the third?
And this isn't the only bit that's come out of the Conservative convention that's clearly illustrated to me the insane bubble they live in. See Rona Ambrose's comments about Laureen Harper - admittedly, the shot at Gregoire-Trudeau may not have been intended, but please - and the response to Uruzurum Heer's comments about the tenor of their last election campaign, and couple them with Ambrose's declaration that the Conservatives are the party of women and new Canadians. 20% of Conservative candidates in 2015 were women, so they're actually the party of 80% men.
Really, if you're a Conservative and a supporter for gay marriage, you shouldn't be celebrating this as a win; you should be shaking your damn head at how fucking long this has taken, and how you still have 462 people voting No. As a progressive Canadian, I don't want any of our "milestones" to be determined by the recalcitrant laggards that are the Conservatives. These people are delusional about their self-importance and who they really are.
Well, IMHO society ought to be judged with it's worst qualities as part of the metric. Our worst qualities just got less worse, and it's because we didn't give up the fight or get jaded about things ever changing. Yes, the really stubborn & cantankerous CPC members are going to carry their regressive attitudes to the grave (probably), but now they're handily outnumbered even within their own party. That's big!
Yes, it's somewhat eye rolling that they want to pop a champagne cork now... but y'know what, why not celebrate that? Sure, everyone else was already across the line, but at least they got there! People in their ranks kept saying, 'No, this is wrong!' and kept saying it until their voice was dominant. I'll toast to that any day of the week.
You don't celebrate delusion because it feeds into the delusion.
If that one cantankerous uncle in your family interrupts Thanksgiving dinner for a BIG announcement, and he finally concedes that maybe the world won't end if the balls touch, when he pauses for your applause, do you buy him a cake and balloons? Or do you tell him, "About fucking time!"?
I toast him and drink to that. I mean, it's just better.
I don't see why I would discourage or reprimand a positive change, even if it should have come sooner.
Depends on you, actually.
Because we're supposed to be working together and if you're of the notion that when someone finally agrees with you that you continue to berate them, then I'm not sure why anyone would ever change their minds at your insistence.
The conservative quote is self serving, but you're saying we should be working at dividing Canada further, not trying to bring everyone together.
Yeah I don't know what you want here
The Conservatives to wear a hair shirt for the next five years as penance? There's no universe where that happens
I'm happy with them adopting civilized positions and letting the public discourse fully move on to productive topics
Wouldn't that be just Goddamn incredible? Even if in reality it didn't do much for actual policy implementation, it would be so much more engaging. It would mean the end of the era where everyone says they just hate the election season because of how nasty it is.
This is a small step towards that future.
Well 1) I'm not going out and finding federal Conservatives and berating them about this, so I don't see how I'm "working at dividing Canada further".
2) I think we're kidding ourselves if we think this policy change for a major political party occurred in no part because they were being "berated", at the polls, and that for a large number of Conservatives, this is more about survival than righteousness.
3) I can be happy with where we are and not be happy with how we got here, and the people who belaboured our getting here, especially if they were intentionally preventing our getting here for a long time. If one of my TAs is submitting marks 2 weeks late, I'm not sending out a congratulatory email when they finally do get me their grades, and I'm sure as hell not inviting my students to applaud them for doing so. I'm still relieved that I can finally release the marks, but they're not doing me a favour by finally not being derelict in their responsibilities, and I'm definitely leaving them hanging if they try for a high-five. (Also, will be giving them a negative evaluation and be warning other instructors about said TA.)
Here's my rule of thumb: If you're doing something for someone else, and they're not celebrating, then you probably shouldn't celebrate either.
But try as I might, I cannot find a list of resolution, nor an actual description of the process going on (can the plenary overturn the vote? are there other steps after?).
Can anyone hook me up?
I just meant it more as "do you really think the polarized politics will end?"
Not in my lifetime, no. But perhaps a few generations down the road.
It may never be completely non-polarized, but I hope it will be significantly less venomous.
I'm trying to be a bit more optimistic. I mean, last election, three out of five parties ran non-venemous campaigns, and one won a majority on it. Maybe the NDP and CPC will take the hint?
The Bloc
MWO: Adamski
I thought I was missing a national party
The idea that we should be, what, celebrating them for their nakedly political move is ridiculous.
Is it? Cause I don't think it is in the slightest. I don't see how it could be. It's simply the same people as before dropping a losing issue.
It ain't like this was a major source of partisanship in the first place anyway.
I don't think anyone except the CPC is celebrating the move. Everyone else is more letting a sigh of relief and going "finally!".
And we're not supposed to be happy about it?
I'm happy about it.
I think it's great.
I don't care why they're doing it. Progress is progress.
*LGB people.
I imagine a fair amount of anti-T commentary will come up in the house and senate once the Liberals' bill C-16 starts being debated.
Ability to compromise like this is also a reason we don't have as massive social issue fights
You won. People are finally coming around and realizing hate is not acceptable. And you want to respond to this... with hate? What the hell is wrong with you?
Really? Do the Conservatives realise hate is not acceptable? Or do they just realise that this particular hatred of these particular people in this particular way is unacceptable, because it seems to me that the Conservatives still have plenty of hate to go around. (E.g. towards Muslims.)
I'm sorry, but in the world I live in, you don't get (much) credit for belatedly doing the thing you were (obviously) supposed to have done in the first place. I don't get a bonus for showing up to work late; I don't get marks for submitting an assignment late; I don't get love for proposing late. That doesn't automatically mean I get fired, or that I fail, or that I get dumped, and I might still do a really good job, be a really good student, or be a really good husband, but I would expect a verbal smackdown if I bragged about any of those things.
As for getting what we wanted and still acting pissy? Well, I wanted gay marriage to be legal, and I got that back in 2005, and I'm no pissier today than I was TEN YEARS AGO. Also, I want conservatives to stop being silly geese, and I haven't got that yet. Did I "want" the Conservative Party of Canada to finally support gay marriage in 2015? Fuck no. I couldn't give a shit less about that, and haven't since at least 2005.
Who "won" this week? Ain't nobody won shit, as far as I can tell. Nothing has materially changed since last week; if the Conservative Party of Canada voted down that resolution, gay and lesbian couples would continue marrying each other, because gay and lesbian couples "won" 10 years ago. The rest of it is no more a victory than the tides coming in are a victory for the moon; it was obvious 10 years ago that the CPC would eventually withdraw their opposition to gay and lesbian marriage at some point, so, yay, they choose political relevance over political suicide this weekend. At best, that's a victory for CPC insiders and GLB(TQ?) CPC members; for the rest of us, it was Saturday.
Edit: Not even Gul Dukat would declare victory: "A true victory is to make your enemies see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness!"
No, they aren't. They are realising that this particular brand of bigotry is no longer politically viable at the federal level. That's a good thing, but it's not what many people in this thread keep pretending it is. They still think the hate is acceptable, it's just they know they can't talk about it too loudly.
This isn't your uncle who rants about the queers whenever he has a few beers at a family gathering realising the error of his ways and that there's nothing wrong with gay people, it's said uncle realising he's not gonna be allowed to see his grandkids if he keeps it up cause his daughter is putting her foot down and so he's learned to keep his mouth shut at Christmas and confine his antics to chain emails and facebook.
Like, let's be actually realistic here: the Cons have not been openly anti-woman in many of their positions for awhile. They aren't out there publicly saying "Women should be second class citizens". Cause they know that shit is not politically viable federally. They keep their backbenchers in line and get them to keep their idiot mouths shut for the most part. But that didn't stop Harper from spending his decade in power fucking women over every chance he got.
You want another example? They know they can't be publicly against our healthcare system but they sure as fuck wanna drastically change it. They just know it's too popular to attack openly.
This shit is no different. When I hear them talk about this issue at this point in time, all I see is an acknowledgement that they now have to keep their position on the downlow in order to get back into power. Anything else is being naive imo.
Why? Because societal change is generational. Baby boomers are still the same. Millenials will always be the same. But baby boomers are not the same as millenials.
With the Conservatives realizing the public won't stand for bigotry, they're keeping theirs quiet. Which means the new generation of conservative voters grow up without that bigotry as part of the conservative ideal.
And so it fades.
Some choice quotes from the Toronto Star's article on this policy vote (bolding is mine):
And these were the people who voted FOR the motion.
Because that'll be new. They've always had that discretion.
I would say the laughable/objectionable part of that is not the bit he highlighted, which is 100% the way it should work, and rather that this part was labelled as a compromise.
Which tells you everything you need to know about the thinking going into this vote.