So anyone who says "don't vote for that guy, I'm fairly sure he's gonna drop out tomorrow" before a commonly recognized winnowing event is commiting electoral fraud?
Yes, telling people the candidate they came to vote for is dropping out of the race is indeed a kind of electoral fraud. I'm sorry, how is this not simple and clear? What's not electoral fraud about it from a non-legal-definitino standpoint?
He nor his campaign never directly said that Carson was going to drop out. The mailer merely implied it to the overly credulous and the staff appear to have suggested it without actually saying it as fact.
Hell, this interpretation of fraud makes me a fraudster for saying "I bet we see everyone except Cruz and Trump and maybe Christie drop within a week of the Iowa Caucus results" on Twitter. People in Iowa could have read that and voted based on it. So does that mean I suppressed pretty much everyone who would have voted outside of those three?
This is the most tenuous and pedantic of excuses. "We never said it, we just heavily implied it" is not a meaningful distinction and you well know it. I don't know why you continue this silly argument with it's silly analogies.
Also a campaign is not a random person on twitter.
Also, it's entirely possible that people who supported Carson were begrudgingly convinced to not "waste" their vote during the caucus. It's literally impossible to know how much or how little impact Cruz's sliminess impacted the primary.
Even if it barely had an impact, shit's still slimy!
First off, since it's a Caucus thrown by the Republican Party whatever went down--no matter how scummy, slimy, and unethical it is--is not Electoral Fraud. If any punishment happens from this, it'd be doled out by the Republican Party itself.
Second, the way a caucus works means you are trying to convince human beings in a physical room to throw their support behind a person. As far as I know there's no rules against lying to accomplish that so even though lying about a candidate dropping out of the race is supremely shitty, I don't think there's any rules technically broken by it.
Third, if you're told "hey your candidate dropped out of the race, come to our side" from supporters of a different candidate and you take it at face value without say, confirming it with the caucus organizers that are in the same room as you or the internet you likely have on your phone, then I don't know what to say.
First off, since it's a Caucus thrown by the Republican Party whatever went down--no matter how scummy, slimy, and unethical it is--is not Electoral Fraud. If any punishment happens from this, it'd be doled out by the Republican Party itself.
Second, the way a caucus works means you are trying to convince human beings in a physical room to throw their support behind a person. As far as I know there's no rules against lying to accomplish that so even though lying about a candidate dropping out of the race is supremely shitty, I don't think there's any rules technically broken by it.
Third, if you're told "hey your candidate dropped out of the race, come to our side" from supporters of a different candidate and you take it at face value without say, confirming it with the caucus organizers that are in the same room as you or the internet you likely have on your phone, then I don't know what to say.
Yeah, no. Again, we aren't using the legal definition because it's frankly pointless in this kind of discussion.
Fair enough. I was thinking we were discussing the political game of the primary here. Trump is the major player bringing up and trump-eting these allegations so it seemed relevant to point out his motivation and tactics surrounding it. His particular argumentation also seemed on topic and worthy of discussion.
The prospect of a Trump nomination alarms national anti-choice groups as well. Just before the Iowa Caucuses, 12 conservative, anti-choice women wrote an open letter to Iowans, highlighting Trump's lack of commitment to banning abortion, or to appointing Supreme Court justices who would overturn Roe v. Wade. "America will only be a great nation when we have leaders of strong character who will defend both unborn children and the dignity of women. We cannot trust Donald Trump to do either," the letter read. Signers included stalwarts of the Christian right, including Beverly LaHaye, who founded Concerned Women for America, one of the first religious right activist organizations targeting women, in 1979, and Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of the influential anti-abortion group the Susan B. Anthony List.
So, they want to be lied to, of course. I kinda feel sorry for Trumpians, watching your party lose elections because they have to pander to morons is humilliating, so no wonder they are furious.
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
so, wait...
there's a bunch of people running around calling themselves the fucking SUSAN B. ANTHONY GROUP who advocate less rights for women?
They're the real feminists, don't let liberal oppression of opinion pull one over you.
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
It would be nice indeed if Trump misses the nomination in as bad terms as possible. I still have my fingers crossed for an independent run if that happens.
I couldn't care less about Trump maybe having a point about Cruz's underhanded actions in Iowa, I like watching him squirm and whine like a sore loser. The only reason he's making such a big deal of it is because he lost. If he'd won Iowa he'd have a few tweets calling Cruz a pathetic loser but he wouldn't be raising a fuss over it.
I can think Cruz made a scummy move while also enjoying the schadenfreude of Trump being a sore loser.
Apparently Trump's plane was forced into an emergency landing in Nashville last night. I haven't heard much more than that. Radio isn't being terribly informative.
Apparently Trump's plane was forced into an emergency landing in Nashville last night. I haven't heard much more than that. Radio isn't being terribly informative.
I thought Trump's plane and pilot were the best(!). Therefore, this was clearly a planned surprise for all of his supporters at the airport.
"What Ted Cruz did the other night in his Iowa victory speech is disgusting," said Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. "He said he embraces fire fighters and the dangerous work they do, says he’s our friend and calls himself a great patriot. But when it came time to actually have the backs of fire fighters across the U.S., he was AWOL. Cruz is the worst kind of politician who will say or do anything to get elected."
In specific:
"I say to you Senator: You had your chance to stand up for those who rushed into the burning towers on 9/11 and you failed them," Cassidy wrote in the New York Daily News Tuesday. "While sick and dying firefighters spent months in Washington, D.C., working to convince Congress to extend the Zadroga Act and provide healthcare for ill 9/11 responders, Sen. Cruz was nowhere to be found."
"What Ted Cruz did the other night in his Iowa victory speech is disgusting," said Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. "He said he embraces fire fighters and the dangerous work they do, says he’s our friend and calls himself a great patriot. But when it came time to actually have the backs of fire fighters across the U.S., he was AWOL. Cruz is the worst kind of politician who will say or do anything to get elected."
In specific:
"I say to you Senator: You had your chance to stand up for those who rushed into the burning towers on 9/11 and you failed them," Cassidy wrote in the New York Daily News Tuesday. "While sick and dying firefighters spent months in Washington, D.C., working to convince Congress to extend the Zadroga Act and provide healthcare for ill 9/11 responders, Sen. Cruz was nowhere to be found."
The fact that Ted Cruz seems to alienate anyone whom he crosses path with is truly fascinating.
Has there ever been a precedent for this in US politics?
"What Ted Cruz did the other night in his Iowa victory speech is disgusting," said Harold Schaitberger, president of the International Association of Fire Fighters. "He said he embraces fire fighters and the dangerous work they do, says he’s our friend and calls himself a great patriot. But when it came time to actually have the backs of fire fighters across the U.S., he was AWOL. Cruz is the worst kind of politician who will say or do anything to get elected."
In specific:
"I say to you Senator: You had your chance to stand up for those who rushed into the burning towers on 9/11 and you failed them," Cassidy wrote in the New York Daily News Tuesday. "While sick and dying firefighters spent months in Washington, D.C., working to convince Congress to extend the Zadroga Act and provide healthcare for ill 9/11 responders, Sen. Cruz was nowhere to be found."
The fact that Ted Cruz seems to alienate anyone whom he crosses path with is truly fascinating.
Has there ever been a precedent for this in US politics?
Richard Nixon probably came close. The big difference there is that he made enemies by being the attack dog for moderate Republicans, while Cruz mauls for his own pleasure and profit.
Sure, firefighters are against Ted Cruz, but he can still sink lower. Get ready for Used Car Salesmen of America and the Union of Unscrupulous Lawyers to join the fray. He out-slimes them all.
Apparently Trump's plane was forced into an emergency landing in Nashville last night. I haven't heard much more than that. Radio isn't being terribly informative.
I thought Trump's plane and pilot were the best(!). Therefore, this was clearly a planned surprise for all of his supporters at the airport.
Or they just won a tough fight with election Dragon.
If Cruz were born with less money and had less education he's probably be about halfway finished with his Leatherface suit
I'm only half joking I think the guy is genuinely a sociopath
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
Election Dragon is hands-down my favorite thing to come out of this election, even against such tough competition of a video of Jeb saying "Mission Accomplished"
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Party endorsements haven't exactly translated into success at the polls for Republicans this cycle. That said, Rubio has now pulled ahead of JEB(!#$%) in the number of official endorsements received.
Could be an indication that GOP members of congress are increasingly seeing Rubio as their least-bad option.
I'm going to save my outrage for the inevitable actual Fraud. Repeating a media report implying that Carson is dropping out when he clearly is going to soon anyway and when he literally had stopped campaigning is barely a faux pas in the GOP playbook
Party endorsements haven't exactly translated into success at the polls for Republicans this cycle. That said, Rubio has now pulled ahead of JEB(!#$%) in the number of official endorsements received.
Could be an indication that GOP members of congress are increasingly seeing Rubio as their least-bad option.
Honestly, if the GOP ends up having another "moderate" (by this race's crazy standards) run for the presidency and fail, I shudder to think which candidates will show up next election, as the base inevitably blames their defeat on not being right enough.
There's little room to the right already without falling into either straight up fascism or anarchy.
Party endorsements haven't exactly translated into success at the polls for Republicans this cycle. That said, Rubio has now pulled ahead of JEB(!#$%) in the number of official endorsements received.
Could be an indication that GOP members of congress are increasingly seeing Rubio as their least-bad option.
Honestly, if the GOP ends up having another "moderate" (by this race's crazy standards) run for the presidency and fail, I shudder to think which candidates will show up next election, as the base inevitably blames their defeat on not being right enough.
There's little room to the right already without falling into either straight up fascism or anarchy.
Would a failed Trump or Cruz bid be enough to break that cycle though?
Party endorsements haven't exactly translated into success at the polls for Republicans this cycle. That said, Rubio has now pulled ahead of JEB(!#$%) in the number of official endorsements received.
Could be an indication that GOP members of congress are increasingly seeing Rubio as their least-bad option.
Honestly, if the GOP ends up having another "moderate" (by this race's crazy standards) run for the presidency and fail, I shudder to think which candidates will show up next election, as the base inevitably blames their defeat on not being right enough.
There's little room to the right already without falling into either straight up fascism or anarchy.
Would a failed Trump or Cruz bid be enough to break that cycle though?
I honestly don't know what it would take.
I'm not sure either, the level of insanity in this race is already freakishly high. We're now in a world where Fox News has been called a liberal media. This is the point we have reached folks, let that sink in.
"Trump wasn't a conservative! He was a fascist, populist liberal claiming to be a conservative! Look at his record, he's pro-choice and he's donated to democrats in the past! No true conservative..."
"Trump wasn't a conservative! He was a fascist, populist liberal claiming to be a conservative! Look at his record, he's pro-choice and he's donated to democrats in the past! No true conservative..."
"Trump wasn't a conservative! He was a fascist, populist liberal claiming to be a conservative! Look at his record, he's pro-choice and he's donated to democrats in the past! No true conservative..."
And Cruz would be "well, he was an asshole no wonder he didn't get elected". Neither of those will change anything within the GOP
"Trump wasn't a conservative! He was a fascist, populist liberal claiming to be a conservative! Look at his record, he's pro-choice and he's donated to democrats in the past! No true conservative..."
And Cruz would be "well, he was an asshole no wonder he didn't get elected". Neither of those will change anything within the GOP
Eh, Cruz' case would at least have the benefit of moving the goalposts, instead of just falling back to no true scotsman.
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This is the most tenuous and pedantic of excuses. "We never said it, we just heavily implied it" is not a meaningful distinction and you well know it. I don't know why you continue this silly argument with it's silly analogies.
Also a campaign is not a random person on twitter.
Even if it barely had an impact, shit's still slimy!
You're right - any reasonable person would interpret that as playing dirty in a discussion between humans and not political geese. Fair point.
Second, the way a caucus works means you are trying to convince human beings in a physical room to throw their support behind a person. As far as I know there's no rules against lying to accomplish that so even though lying about a candidate dropping out of the race is supremely shitty, I don't think there's any rules technically broken by it.
Third, if you're told "hey your candidate dropped out of the race, come to our side" from supporters of a different candidate and you take it at face value without say, confirming it with the caucus organizers that are in the same room as you or the internet you likely have on your phone, then I don't know what to say.
Yeah, no. Again, we aren't using the legal definition because it's frankly pointless in this kind of discussion.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/donald-trump-tweet-cruz-stole-iowa
So, they want to be lied to, of course. I kinda feel sorry for Trumpians, watching your party lose elections because they have to pander to morons is humilliating, so no wonder they are furious.
there's a bunch of people running around calling themselves the fucking SUSAN B. ANTHONY GROUP who advocate less rights for women?
mother FUCKER.
I can think Cruz made a scummy move while also enjoying the schadenfreude of Trump being a sore loser.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I thought Trump's plane and pilot were the best(!). Therefore, this was clearly a planned surprise for all of his supporters at the airport.
In specific:
The fact that Ted Cruz seems to alienate anyone whom he crosses path with is truly fascinating.
Has there ever been a precedent for this in US politics?
Richard Nixon probably came close. The big difference there is that he made enemies by being the attack dog for moderate Republicans, while Cruz mauls for his own pleasure and profit.
Or they just won a tough fight with election Dragon.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I'm only half joking I think the guy is genuinely a sociopath
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Could be an indication that GOP members of congress are increasingly seeing Rubio as their least-bad option.
Link: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/marco-rubio-is-now-winning-the-race-for-endorsements/
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
Honestly, if the GOP ends up having another "moderate" (by this race's crazy standards) run for the presidency and fail, I shudder to think which candidates will show up next election, as the base inevitably blames their defeat on not being right enough.
There's little room to the right already without falling into either straight up fascism or anarchy.
Would a failed Trump or Cruz bid be enough to break that cycle though?
I honestly don't know what it would take.
I'm not sure either, the level of insanity in this race is already freakishly high. We're now in a world where Fox News has been called a liberal media. This is the point we have reached folks, let that sink in.
"Trump wasn't a conservative! He was a fascist, populist liberal claiming to be a conservative! Look at his record, he's pro-choice and he's donated to democrats in the past! No true conservative..."
This is already happening, even.
And Cruz would be "well, he was an asshole no wonder he didn't get elected". Neither of those will change anything within the GOP
Eh, Cruz' case would at least have the benefit of moving the goalposts, instead of just falling back to no true scotsman.
I'm in the mood to talk politics, I come into this thread, catch up on it, want to get my opinions down and discuss things...
but all I can seemingly come up with is
This whole thing is fucking BONKERS, everyone.
This is a dog whistle, right?
99% certain.
Well they sure didn't call attention to when he was singing in the church at the South Carolina service after that shooting
not even worth 1% benefit of the doubt
NNID: Hakkekage