cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
edited January 2016
Woof certainly seems like an interesting character.
Boy did I have fun playing brightwing against all the woofs last night though. That fella HATES polymorph. He simply doesn't have the health to keep from dying if he dives in and is CC'd.
cptrugged on
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah I'd put Greymane in the same boat as heroes like Kerrigan and Sonya. He does require the right comp on both ends to work, but if he's allowed to do his thing, he's a beast (get it?!?!?!?!). Yesterday I played a few games with someone who picked up on him right away, and the guy was getting in more killing blows and doing more hero damage than I was on Nova. This isn't to say that I'm a great Nova so much as to say that I'm barely competent and Nova is OP and Greymane literally just came out and someone was able to stay ahead of me, which means that once people get more playing time in, I wouldn't be surprised to see some absolute monster damage numbers.
In terms of counterplay, the biggest thing seems to be spotting him early and wrecking him before he can feast on a bunch of half-HP heroes. He really has no escapes beyond that 75% reduction talent, and not much HP either, so he will die to coordinated fire any time he tries to hop into melee range prematurely. You can also pick on him in human form, too, because he has no actual escapes then - the best he can do is jump to a hopefully-weaker enemy.
Yeah I'd put Greymane in the same boat as heroes like Kerrigan and Sonya. He does require the right comp on both ends to work, but if he's allowed to do his thing, he's a beast (get it?!?!?!?!). Yesterday I played a few games with someone who picked up on him right away, and the guy was getting in more killing blows and doing more hero damage than I was on Nova. This isn't to say that I'm a great Nova so much as to say that I'm barely competent and Nova is OP and Greymane literally just came out and someone was able to stay ahead of me, which means that once people get more playing time in, I wouldn't be surprised to see some absolute monster damage numbers.
In terms of counterplay, the biggest thing seems to be spotting him early and wrecking him before he can feast on a bunch of half-HP heroes. He really has no escapes beyond that 75% reduction talent, and not much HP either, so he will die to coordinated fire any time he tries to hop into melee range prematurely. You can also pick on him in human form, too, because he has no actual escapes then - the best he can do is jump to a hopefully-weaker enemy.
Can he jump to walls/structures, or just "living" targets?
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Both Sonya and Kerrigan have sustain and ways to stop damage. He has none.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
I definitely played up the no sustain aspect in lane against him.
It's called Human form. If you don't want to get punched, don't be a wolf. Kerrigan and Sonya have sustain because they don't have the option of backflipping out and shooting dudes from the safety of range.
+1
FiggyFighter of the night manChampion of the sunRegistered Userregular
I was more referring to the fact that he was released for an hour and your first words were "So Greyman is shit".
Not "I've only played him one damn time and have no idea how yet but I was garbage with him"
No, it was "He's shit unless" and I stand by that if you are against a serious comp. He is paper. He has no sustain. He needs support. He is a fucking beast with support to keep him from running back to base every engagement.
So, what you're saying is he's an assassin?
But in all seriousness, my point stands. Just because you add a qualifier doesn't meant one game is enough to decide.
And even after a day, we still don't know where he'll settle in terms of viability.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It's called Human form. If you don't want to get punched, don't be a wolf. Kerrigan and Sonya have sustain because they don't have the option of backflipping out and shooting dudes from the safety of range.
In human form he doesn't have an escape. I pointed this out.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Greymane looks like the character to kill Joanna, Muradin, and other unkillable heroes
idk, he gets pooped on p hard by blind and aspd reduction from reverb. and stun if he doesn't take the level 16 talent.
and yea, his human form is "yes i would like to be ganked by anyone for free" form if you're not great as positioning. greymane who is human or shifted into wolf but cd isn't up yet has basically no ability to significantly reposition. playing diablo right now is real fun.
he does a crapton of burst but he really needs to avoid characters that can exploit/change his positioning or slow his damage because they bully him hard.
It's called Human form. If you don't want to get punched, don't be a wolf. Kerrigan and Sonya have sustain because they don't have the option of backflipping out and shooting dudes from the safety of range.
In human form he doesn't have an escape. I pointed this out.
I'm just saying that your assessment that he's crap because he doesn't have a sustain and he requires a healer is wrong. He has a way of not getting hurt. It's called range. At that point you treat him just like any other ranged assassin. Positioning is key. Just because he has no sustain and you cannot wolf all the time always does not mean he's crap. Range characters don't need an escape if they position well. And he doesn't need a healer if you play smart.
The lack of sustain is a really serious drawback to his capabilities as a melee assassin, he is so so squishy. Just the incidental damage alone from participating in a team fight will wreck him. From what I've played so far I probably wouldn't ever build for wolf form unless I have a support comp that I trust. His ranged DPS is still pretty good though and wolf form comes in handy as a finisher.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah I'd put Greymane in the same boat as heroes like Kerrigan and Sonya. He does require the right comp on both ends to work, but if he's allowed to do his thing, he's a beast (get it?!?!?!?!). Yesterday I played a few games with someone who picked up on him right away, and the guy was getting in more killing blows and doing more hero damage than I was on Nova. This isn't to say that I'm a great Nova so much as to say that I'm barely competent and Nova is OP and Greymane literally just came out and someone was able to stay ahead of me, which means that once people get more playing time in, I wouldn't be surprised to see some absolute monster damage numbers.
In terms of counterplay, the biggest thing seems to be spotting him early and wrecking him before he can feast on a bunch of half-HP heroes. He really has no escapes beyond that 75% reduction talent, and not much HP either, so he will die to coordinated fire any time he tries to hop into melee range prematurely. You can also pick on him in human form, too, because he has no actual escapes then - the best he can do is jump to a hopefully-weaker enemy.
Can he jump to walls/structures, or just "living" targets?
You can jump on any targetable enemy, including structures, minions, mercs, etc.
So I just noticed that the Hit Combo counter actually does serve a purpose. It only starts when you have Inner Beast activated. If you take Wolfheart as your Level 1 talent, then once you get 16 hits on the combo you know that your Inner Beast cooldown will be back up if you disengage. So it's basically a cooldown timer on that talent.
+2
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Johanna does indeed crap on Greymane. Alpha Killer might be something to make her health bar go down faster but she's still not going to die, and then she basically does shield into blind and it's just like "no Greymane you will be doing no damage for about 4 seconds while we kill you".
Also saying Sonya has sustain is kinda dishonest. Her sustain has been terrible ever since they nerfed Whirlwind regen on minions (since if you whirlwind a hero you'll almost always be taking more damage than you regen), and War Paint really doesn't provide much healing--you'd have to auto a wall for like 20 seconds to get like 10 or 15% of your health back. Kind of a testament to how bad lifesteal is in HotS, you only pick it if there isn't a better talent and even then it's mediocre (IE the two best lifesteal talents, war paint and leeching plasma, being the only ones picked and are still underwhelming).
Oh wait, Sonya has Ferocious Healing! I forgot about that talent. That does give her a ton of sustain if you take it but 7 is a very competitive talent for her, with FA, Composite and Poisoned all being strong talents in and of themselves.
Yeah I don't think you want to build him with auto attacks in mind. I think his Q build minus the level 4 talent is the way to go
I just tried this out and you are absolutely 100% correct here. Q build is kinda really damn good. Hits for about 800 at level 20, that's some crazy good aoe damage.
And yeah, I've been focusing more on staying Human and less on going full ham with Worgen. It's been paying off big time. I find that Worgen is great for following up on a stun or some other form of CC, as well as diving low health targets for the kill.
But you don't want to engage with Worgen form. Just too dangerous.
I'm actually really impressed with his level 4 talents, too. They're each really good. I tried Eyes in the Dark today, specifically because of the enemy team comp (Muradin/Greymane/Murky, scary shit). It actually paid off big time, Mura was never really able to land his stuns on me, Greymane couldn't do anything once I was stealthed, and Murky wasn't able to Octograb. It's a pretty nice defensive talent, albeit a bit niche.
Hunter's Blunderbuss is also pretty good, actually. It's a nice pick when you aren't really able to capitalize too much on the Worgen cleave (like say most of the team is ranged or w/e). The splash range is larger than you might think it is.
Edit: I'm also continually impressed by just how damn good Scented Tincture is. Like wow, combine that Incendiary Elixir (and optionally Draught Overflow) and it's an extremely potent reveal. The problem is that Tincture competes with Wolfheart, which is pretty much just plain better in most circumstances. I only take Tincture vs stealthies, but man I was getting value even on the non-stealthies. I could see Tincture being huge in competitive.
Also Greymane's mana issues suuuuuck. Stop eating so much mana, Greymane!
Dibby on
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah Greymane does crazy burst. Bomb + Swipe + R is crazy.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
When you play Worgen Greymane right, you are basically jumping in, slashing and dashing your kills, then rolling out while firing behind you and throwing grenades. You make sure the enemy stays dead. You unload like a motherfucker.
And with support, you just swing those mack-trucks for 300+ damage a pop at rapid-fire speed and basically everything melts. EVERYTHINGS MELTS. Greymane is top priority to kill.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
It's a good change. Whatever difference in MMR they were applying to balance out 5 singles vs a 5-man or whatever was not working most times.
i am guessing it wasn't but to be honest i generally have very even games. there are of course the occasional blowouts one way or the other but hots compared to really any other team based game i have played is on par or better from a matchmaking perspective. apparently i am stealing all of the good luck for MM from everyone else.
It's a good change. Whatever difference in MMR they were applying to balance out 5 singles vs a 5-man or whatever was not working most times.
i am guessing it wasn't but to be honest i generally have very even games. there are of course the occasional blowouts one way or the other but hots compared to really any other team based game i have played is on par or better from a matchmaking perspective. apparently i am stealing all of the good luck for MM from everyone else.
Mine is actually generally quite good. Which is why the times I've gone up with a bunch of yolo queuers against a 5-stack are so notable because like 75% of the time it's a stomp where the other team has a perfectly built comp for the old gank/stun/burst meta.
Two games in a row where my team got stomped, badly (Dragonshire we lost every dragon and were down by 3 levels just about the whole game, and one on the new field where we didn't get a single shrine, at all). Time to take a break.
Honestly I'd rather have old and busted Mines than new and busted Altars. I hate Altars so much.
Part of it is because I only have like a 30% winrate on that map. But part of it is because that map just flat sucks.
+2
MachwingIt looks like a harmless old computer, doesn't it?Left in this cave to rot ... or to flower!Registered Userregular
I liked mines
+9
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I think altars is fine but shouldn't be in QM, as should probably BoE
their intense lean towards certain team types are fine (ALL TEAMFIGHT ALL THE TIME and single target PvE DPS, respectively), but only when you get to pick your lineup with the map in mind
i dislike towers since the early game can really be pointless more than any other map. at least on other maps you generate permanent structure damage, but i've won and lost a huge percentage of ToD games in the last 5m when there are 3 3 spawns in a row because one team is far superior at late game teamfighting and just gets all of them.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
the thing with ToD there is if you have a much better early game you can secure all the early shrines so you only have to focus on securing one shrine at a time in the late game to secure a victory
but yeah, there isn't a "quick victory" option, which a map doesn't NEED to have. But it'd be nice to be able to build your team with that in mind.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Quick Victory = capture all the towers
I've had it happen both in steamrolls and comebacks (as in, down by 30 shots, wipe them twice to get a 6-cap, win the game).
You know how to lose games in Towers? To not care about pushing lanes early. You know how to throw on Towers? To not push your early advantages by capping mercs/towers.
The most annoying thing on that map is winning a bunch of early teamfights and then watching your team do nothing but mill around and lane afterwards. That's what lets other teams come back, and that's what makes the game drag on interminably.
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The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I have seen towers games go the full duration without a single tower being taken, but both teams were also really bad at pushing and teamfights dragged on a long time
So yep Greymane's ranged DPS is pretty serious business and not to be trifled with. I've been playing him as a ranged assassin who also has a really sticky chase option (Darkflight -> Razor Swipe -> Disengage towards them) with a lot of success. I just save wolf form until the fight is turning in our favor and use it to secure the kills.
From my experience against him, Worgen Mode is a scary fucking execute. You gotta be real careful if Greymane is nearby and you are low on health cause he will fucking instantly delete your remaining healthpool given a chance.
I think I'm leaning more towards Go for the Throat over Marked for the Kill.
GftT is just, a lot of burst. It hits fucking hard, it's useful for just fuckin' someone up even if it doesn't get the kill. Because it will usually lead to the kill regardless.
MftK is... lackluster. It's Vulnerability for 5 seconds with a very long cast range.... but the projectile is slow as shit, it's hard to really hit the target you want in teamfights (everyone's all clumped up), and it just feels kinda low impact for an Ult. Maybe if the Vulnerability were higher than 25%? Maybe if the actual shot did more damage? Dunno. Hard to say! The best use I've found is hitting that priority target in the backline, and then leaping in and ripping them up. But then that often leaves you exposed and vulnerable, even if you get the kill. I mean I usually get more value from it outside of teamfights, like on a straggler trying to run away. Meh.
So GftT just seems better, I think. It's instant non-skillshot burst on top of a character who already has a lot of burst. It's pretty dope, even if you don't actually trigger the free cast.
I think I'm leaning more towards Go for the Throat over Marked for the Kill.
GftT is just, a lot of burst. It hits fucking hard, it's useful for just fuckin' someone up even if it doesn't get the kill. Because it will usually lead to the kill regardless.
MftK is... lackluster. It's Vulnerability for 5 seconds with a very long cast range.... but the projectile is slow as shit, it's hard to really hit the target you want in teamfights (everyone's all clumped up), and it just feels kinda low impact for an Ult. Maybe if the Vulnerability were higher than 25%? Maybe if the actual shot did more damage? Dunno. Hard to say! The best use I've found is hitting that priority target in the backline, and then leaping in and ripping them up. But then that often leaves you exposed and vulnerable, even if you get the kill.
So GftT just seems better, I think. It's instant non-skillshot burst on top of a character who already has a lot of burst. It's pretty dope, even if you don't actually trigger the free cast.
Yeah I feel the same way, MftK is so easy to waste. It's very hard to predict who is going to be focused and then land that on them at the right time. GftT on the other hand is just a big reliable boost to wolf form's finishing potential.
Posts
Lost Vikings were after Slyv right?
Just before, according to this, it seems
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ub0f8GgKo71HbSiy2Fl1DG1-xjWNFx2--EZssDBnZB4/edit#gid=0
Boy did I have fun playing brightwing against all the woofs last night though. That fella HATES polymorph. He simply doesn't have the health to keep from dying if he dives in and is CC'd.
In terms of counterplay, the biggest thing seems to be spotting him early and wrecking him before he can feast on a bunch of half-HP heroes. He really has no escapes beyond that 75% reduction talent, and not much HP either, so he will die to coordinated fire any time he tries to hop into melee range prematurely. You can also pick on him in human form, too, because he has no actual escapes then - the best he can do is jump to a hopefully-weaker enemy.
Can he jump to walls/structures, or just "living" targets?
Bully him hard.
So, what you're saying is he's an assassin?
But in all seriousness, my point stands. Just because you add a qualifier doesn't meant one game is enough to decide.
And even after a day, we still don't know where he'll settle in terms of viability.
In human form he doesn't have an escape. I pointed this out.
idk, he gets pooped on p hard by blind and aspd reduction from reverb. and stun if he doesn't take the level 16 talent.
and yea, his human form is "yes i would like to be ganked by anyone for free" form if you're not great as positioning. greymane who is human or shifted into wolf but cd isn't up yet has basically no ability to significantly reposition. playing diablo right now is real fun.
he does a crapton of burst but he really needs to avoid characters that can exploit/change his positioning or slow his damage because they bully him hard.
I'm just saying that your assessment that he's crap because he doesn't have a sustain and he requires a healer is wrong. He has a way of not getting hurt. It's called range. At that point you treat him just like any other ranged assassin. Positioning is key. Just because he has no sustain and you cannot wolf all the time always does not mean he's crap. Range characters don't need an escape if they position well. And he doesn't need a healer if you play smart.
Maybe you should go a little less HAM.
You can jump on any targetable enemy, including structures, minions, mercs, etc.
So I just noticed that the Hit Combo counter actually does serve a purpose. It only starts when you have Inner Beast activated. If you take Wolfheart as your Level 1 talent, then once you get 16 hits on the combo you know that your Inner Beast cooldown will be back up if you disengage. So it's basically a cooldown timer on that talent.
Also saying Sonya has sustain is kinda dishonest. Her sustain has been terrible ever since they nerfed Whirlwind regen on minions (since if you whirlwind a hero you'll almost always be taking more damage than you regen), and War Paint really doesn't provide much healing--you'd have to auto a wall for like 20 seconds to get like 10 or 15% of your health back. Kind of a testament to how bad lifesteal is in HotS, you only pick it if there isn't a better talent and even then it's mediocre (IE the two best lifesteal talents, war paint and leeching plasma, being the only ones picked and are still underwhelming).
Oh wait, Sonya has Ferocious Healing! I forgot about that talent. That does give her a ton of sustain if you take it but 7 is a very competitive talent for her, with FA, Composite and Poisoned all being strong talents in and of themselves.
I just tried this out and you are absolutely 100% correct here. Q build is kinda really damn good. Hits for about 800 at level 20, that's some crazy good aoe damage.
And yeah, I've been focusing more on staying Human and less on going full ham with Worgen. It's been paying off big time. I find that Worgen is great for following up on a stun or some other form of CC, as well as diving low health targets for the kill.
But you don't want to engage with Worgen form. Just too dangerous.
I'm actually really impressed with his level 4 talents, too. They're each really good. I tried Eyes in the Dark today, specifically because of the enemy team comp (Muradin/Greymane/Murky, scary shit). It actually paid off big time, Mura was never really able to land his stuns on me, Greymane couldn't do anything once I was stealthed, and Murky wasn't able to Octograb. It's a pretty nice defensive talent, albeit a bit niche.
Hunter's Blunderbuss is also pretty good, actually. It's a nice pick when you aren't really able to capitalize too much on the Worgen cleave (like say most of the team is ranged or w/e). The splash range is larger than you might think it is.
Edit: I'm also continually impressed by just how damn good Scented Tincture is. Like wow, combine that Incendiary Elixir (and optionally Draught Overflow) and it's an extremely potent reveal. The problem is that Tincture competes with Wolfheart, which is pretty much just plain better in most circumstances. I only take Tincture vs stealthies, but man I was getting value even on the non-stealthies. I could see Tincture being huge in competitive.
Also Greymane's mana issues suuuuuck. Stop eating so much mana, Greymane!
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
And with support, you just swing those mack-trucks for 300+ damage a pop at rapid-fire speed and basically everything melts. EVERYTHINGS MELTS. Greymane is top priority to kill.
Oh my god this made me laugh way harder than it should have.
Fuckin' Animorphs reference, of all things, dude.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I am our Greymane.
Steam: TimIsOnSteam
Battle.net: TimIsOnBnet#1745
Switch: SW-7012-4788-7410
PSN: TimIsOnTheNet
edit:
http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/20421003078
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
deets?
edit: oh thanks
Ha, nice.
It's a good change. Whatever difference in MMR they were applying to balance out 5 singles vs a 5-man or whatever was not working most times.
i am guessing it wasn't but to be honest i generally have very even games. there are of course the occasional blowouts one way or the other but hots compared to really any other team based game i have played is on par or better from a matchmaking perspective. apparently i am stealing all of the good luck for MM from everyone else.
WoWtcg and general gaming podcast
WoWtcg and gaming website
@The Geebs That Knows Everything About Animorphs
Mine is actually generally quite good. Which is why the times I've gone up with a bunch of yolo queuers against a 5-stack are so notable because like 75% of the time it's a stomp where the other team has a perfectly built comp for the old gank/stun/burst meta.
Part of it is because I only have like a 30% winrate on that map. But part of it is because that map just flat sucks.
their intense lean towards certain team types are fine (ALL TEAMFIGHT ALL THE TIME and single target PvE DPS, respectively), but only when you get to pick your lineup with the map in mind
but yeah, there isn't a "quick victory" option, which a map doesn't NEED to have. But it'd be nice to be able to build your team with that in mind.
I've had it happen both in steamrolls and comebacks (as in, down by 30 shots, wipe them twice to get a 6-cap, win the game).
You know how to lose games in Towers? To not care about pushing lanes early. You know how to throw on Towers? To not push your early advantages by capping mercs/towers.
The most annoying thing on that map is winning a bunch of early teamfights and then watching your team do nothing but mill around and lane afterwards. That's what lets other teams come back, and that's what makes the game drag on interminably.
GftT is just, a lot of burst. It hits fucking hard, it's useful for just fuckin' someone up even if it doesn't get the kill. Because it will usually lead to the kill regardless.
MftK is... lackluster. It's Vulnerability for 5 seconds with a very long cast range.... but the projectile is slow as shit, it's hard to really hit the target you want in teamfights (everyone's all clumped up), and it just feels kinda low impact for an Ult. Maybe if the Vulnerability were higher than 25%? Maybe if the actual shot did more damage? Dunno. Hard to say! The best use I've found is hitting that priority target in the backline, and then leaping in and ripping them up. But then that often leaves you exposed and vulnerable, even if you get the kill. I mean I usually get more value from it outside of teamfights, like on a straggler trying to run away. Meh.
So GftT just seems better, I think. It's instant non-skillshot burst on top of a character who already has a lot of burst. It's pretty dope, even if you don't actually trigger the free cast.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Yeah I feel the same way, MftK is so easy to waste. It's very hard to predict who is going to be focused and then land that on them at the right time. GftT on the other hand is just a big reliable boost to wolf form's finishing potential.