people who use heal numbers in comparison to the other team's healing numbers invalidate everything they say by doing so. They have proven they know nothing about healing.
You can't heal what's dies in 2 seconds. You can't heal someone off solo laning and feeding. Different healers produce high number in certain environments, and certain healers do a lot of free unnecessary healing that inflates their numbers.
Holy siht, Stitches LAg Bug needs to be fixed ASAP.
Just lost an entire game solely because every time Stitches would hook or do a few other moves, the game turned into a slideshow for our entire team. For about 5 seconds.
Which meant by the time it stopped 1 or 2 of us was dead. Every single fight.
Just, seriously Blizzard?
the cause of this bug was hilarious btw
under certain conditions, stitches' hook physics geo would scale up to collide with the entire map
Holy siht, Stitches LAg Bug needs to be fixed ASAP.
Just lost an entire game solely because every time Stitches would hook or do a few other moves, the game turned into a slideshow for our entire team. For about 5 seconds.
Which meant by the time it stopped 1 or 2 of us was dead. Every single fight.
Just, seriously Blizzard?
the cause of this bug was hilarious btw
under certain conditions, stitches' hook physics geo would scale up to collide with the entire map
Not gonna lie, that makes it worth it. That's awesome.
Stitches was literally hooking the entire world.
0
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I spent like 20 minutes looking for gameplay footage yesterday.
All I found was the video showcasing his 3D model and different skins which came out with the other Arthas skins, etc..
Yeah they generally drop the promo videos the weekend before release. Li Ming's was actually super early and threw us off because they revealed her like 2 weeks before release.
Browder tweeted that the playtesting team is in the top 200.
Either they're ignoring their playtesters or he's full of shit.
I mean, at least with Li-ming, most pros consider her the least impactful of the 3 mages since her skillshots are easy to dodge and she has no CC. afaik she was barely picked in the korean tournament that happened last week, and usually only after Jaina and Kael got banned or picked. Not hard to imagine them thinking talents like Ess of Johan are fine if you barely ever get to land an orb.
0
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
So Reddit is overreacting to a Browder tweet, but I thought I'd take the pulse of folks in here regarding the feedback that mine Abathur really isn't that fun to play against.
At first glace, I would agree. There have been games where I've been completely locked down by Abathur mines, missed an objective, and can't do anything about it. To be honest I think the way mines work now, especially if you include a slow, is kind of bullshit. Especially now that TTK is much shorter and CC is that much more valuable, getting hit with something that you can't even see or (for some classes) even if you know where it is, can't clear unless you can see first, is frustrating.
It would almost be better if he had larger mines that were always visible and lasted much shorter but had a commensurately shorter cooldown and activation time. This would make them much more of an active ability, but also much more useful in team fights, while also providing an active counterplay (don't step on them, kill them before moving, etc.).
Ab does have a pretty low win rate, so in the grand scheme of things this is likely pretty low on the priority list (if there at all), but I'd be open to a change in Abathur's mines if it came along with a buff that made him more balanced overall. In general his abilities feel really "passive", but a lot of that is out of necessity, because without fire-and-forget stuff like locusts and mines, he would be impossible to play usefully without Korean levels of APS.
So Reddit is overreacting to a Browder tweet, but I thought I'd take the pulse of folks in here regarding the feedback that mine Abathur really isn't that fun to play against.
At first glace, I would agree. There have been games where I've been completely locked down by Abathur mines, missed an objective, and can't do anything about it. To be honest I think the way mines work now, especially if you include a slow, is kind of bullshit. Especially now that TTK is much shorter and CC is that much more valuable, getting hit with something that you can't even see or (for some classes) even if you know where it is, can't clear unless you can see first, is frustrating.
It would almost be better if he had larger mines that were always visible and lasted much shorter but had a commensurately shorter cooldown and activation time. This would make them much more of an active ability, but also much more useful in team fights, while also providing an active counterplay (don't step on them, kill them before moving, etc.).
Ab does have a pretty low win rate, so in the grand scheme of things this is likely pretty low on the priority list (if there at all), but I'd be open to a change in Abathur's mines if it came along with a buff that made him more balanced overall. In general his abilities feel really "passive", but a lot of that is out of necessity, because without fire-and-forget stuff like locusts and mines, he would be impossible to play usefully without Korean levels of APS.
You can't really make mines more active because the whole point of them is that they are what he does between his active stuff. It's why they have charges. It's why his locusts are passive too. Hell, it's why he has only 2 skills. The whole point of his kit is hat and then stuff to do during hat cooldown. The more active you make the non-hat part of his kit the more you encourage him to not hat which is not imo the point of his design.
In general I think mine build can be extremely frustrating to play against but on some level that's the entire point. And I'm not sure what you could do to change that without entirely destroying that part of his kit and that build or just making him generally worse. Lower the slow maybe? I don't know.
mines, especially slow mines, are very frustrating.
there was a game i played 2 days ago on dragon shire where their abathur just laid 5-6 mines in the entrance to the bottom shrine bush over and over and over. i was playing teleport li ming so once we got 7 i basically was babysitting the mine bush because 2 of our team died to it in the early game even though i pinged danger on it a bunch. i'd like those minetraps to be less viable somehow, i don't really feel like the intended use for mines was shove 15 in a bush and have a squishy explode because they walked into invisible damage. but abathur is also in a really bad place winrate wise so i don't really know what the solution is.
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
My stance on Aba mines:
"Man, randomly getting super slowed is annoying, but at least we have like an 80% better chance to win the game because the other team has Abathur and we don't."
I think mines are a legitimate play-style, they're fine, they don't need to be changed.
People need to just suck it up and know that if they're playing against an Abathur, mines are a possibility. Don't face check bushes unless you are specifically mine-sweeping. Don't run through the "obvious paths" to objectives. Abathur players who have been in the business for a while know what the common routes are to places, and they will have those mined. You can avoid the mines by not going the way the Abathur player expects you to go.
Alternatively, if it's HL and draft is a possibility, bring reveal. If it's blind pick in QM, if you yourself don't draft a hero with reveal, you have no grounds for complaining. Solution - draft reveal or queue with a reveal hero yourself.
Hmmmm.... I've never felt mines to be that impactful.
A nuisance, most of the time.
If you know their aba went mine build (check the talent screen, check it a few seconds after each enemy tier), then don't walk past the obvious "THIS IS WHERE A MINE SHOULD GO" spots.
Even still, a mine build really doesn't help in a team fight and makes the aba a very passive style which isn't too good in the long run.
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wra
0
jergarmarhollow man crewgoes pew pew pewRegistered Userregular
edited February 2016
I was just looking at hotslogs, and there are 33 or 34 heroes with a win rate of between 47% and 53%. That SEEMS okay. If I play someone like Kerrigan (47.3% win rate), based on statistics alone I will lose an extra 1 game out of 33. Shrug. That leaves 14 "problematic" heroes.
Now, I certainly understand the issue of picking Kerrigan over Reghar in HL. I'm not defending that. And also, statistics aren't everything... but of course that's my point. It looks like there's a lot of valid hero choices right now. If people complain about a Kerrigan pick in HL, solely on the basis of hotslogs percentages, that seems kind of silly to me.
But okay, here's the counter-argument: If Team A picks two 53% heroes, and Team B picks two 47% heroes, perhaps Team A has an even BIGGER advantage now. That's possible, but I would need to see some hard data before I would worry about that. Some characters work together well and some don't, and I would argue that synergy between characters' abilities probably overrides the "statistical synergy" of two 53% heroes.
Now 14 out of 48 still represents 30% of the roster, but at least it leaves most of the roster as viable choices (barring the first pick and maybe the second, based on the map).
jergarmar on
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0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Yeah the thing about bitching about mines is wtf are you complaining about, they are down 1 body. While Aba can make up for being down 1 body in some ways, they are still mostly down one body.
If you add any form of counter play to mines, you effectively remove a large chunk of the only way Aba has to make up for not being a body.
And based on his win % I think that is unnecessary. So what if it can be frusterating to hit a mine? If you play the game well, it won't bother you as much cause you will likely win due to other advantages.
As an Abathur player I feel no greater joy than when I mine a dude and space the mines just perfectly so that when they are finally unslowed they walk right over another.
mines, especially slow mines, are very frustrating.
there was a game i played 2 days ago on dragon shire where their abathur just laid 5-6 mines in the entrance to the bottom shrine bush over and over and over. i was playing teleport li ming so once we got 7 i basically was babysitting the mine bush because 2 of our team died to it in the early game even though i pinged danger on it a bunch. i'd like those minetraps to be less viable somehow, i don't really feel like the intended use for mines was shove 15 in a bush and have a squishy explode because they walked into invisible damage. but abathur is also in a really bad place winrate wise so i don't really know what the solution is.
They already are. The mine +damage talent is a non-stacking dot for exactly that reason.
Mine traps in general are fun but low impact most of the time. Haunted Mines and some spots on Dragon Shire are about the only places they work really well and even there in my experience they were more fun then super efficient. Difficult to land kills with and they give up map control.
Good mine build play discourages traps. The best use of the upgraded mines is to spread them out over large areas so people get hit with one mine after another every few seconds. This maximizes the damage and the slow and the reveal.
As an Abathur player I feel no greater joy than when I mine a dude and space the mines just perfectly so that when they are finally unslowed they walk right over another.
There is a greater joy my friend. It's to be had on Blackheart's Bay.
A well maintained mine field blanketing the area to the enemy's side of the coin turn in is a thing of beauty.
If done properly and supported by your team, the enemy will simply give up even bothering trying to turn coins in after a certain point. They will fear the area as nothing else. It's glorious to behold.
+1
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The argument that Abathur's mines are fine because he has a low win rate seems specious to me. I mean, it's a legitimate point in the sense of, "why are you complaining he never wins anyway", but that seems like a cop-out for both sides. If I have fun with Abathur but lose more often with him, then who cares as long as I'm having fun, so QQ to my teammates who want to be competitive and QQ to my opponents who hate it because can't counter anything I do and just have to suck it up on their way to a win.
The real question is, are Abathur's mines fun to play both with and against?
To play devil's advocate: I can see how they're fun to use, but I'm not sure how they're fun to play against. The invisibility combined with the slow aspect of it is what I think is the biggest problem, because not all heroes have a counter to something that is invisible. And, as I mentioned before, even if you know it's there, some heroes can't attack them unless they are "revealed". I don't play Ab so maybe my opinion doesn't matter, but if I did I think I'd be willing to trade in the invisible+slow mines for a more counter-able skill that also provided a buff to his win rate.
Browder tweeted that the playtesting team is in the top 200.
Either they're ignoring their playtesters or he's full of shit.
Ehhh not quite either of those.
He also clarified something else:
Most of our balance bullpen is top 200. But it is hard to get as much testing internally as you guys do in 2 hours.
Like, internal testing is hard, dude. They can only test so much, in a limited amount of time, with a limited amount of people, with a limited amount of mental bandwidth.
Then they toss it out there and TONS AND TONS of people are playing it and they get WAY more data than they ever could internally.
Also, because sometimes it's really hard to determine if something is OP or just plain strong. That's not an easy task. Either way? At the end of the day, I'd rather them release OP Heroes than UP ones. We've already seen what a string of UP Hero releases look like. Rexxar, Artanis, Lunara, all were horrendously underpowered on release.
I knew that, I just didn't realize it follows them, they can't seem to dodge it once it's targeting them...or maybe they can juke it at the last second with vault or teleport? I dunno.
It seems like there's no way out of it unless you have specific invincibility/unstopppable/stasis abilities like Jo, murky, or anyone with ice block.
Also kinda weird that he's the first hero that has 4 basic abilities untalented?
Ah, someone pointed out that they show bonespear at the very end.
yeah it seems like there's no way out of it unless you have specific invincibility/unstopppable/stasis abilities like Jo, murky, or anyone with ice block.
Also kinda weird that he's the first hero that has 4 basic abilities untalented?
His Bone Armor is more or less a D ability, just placed on 1 instead. Well, except that he also has a separate Trait as well anyway.
And yeah, Bone Prison is gonna be nuts. There is a 2 second delay, so you have some time to react to it, but you're still gonna get rooted either way.
I was theorycrafting an Arthas/Xul combo. Imagine how nuts that'd be? Permaslow from Arthas's E, use Howling Blast to lead into Bone Prison. Murder squad.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
0
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
I knew that, I just didn't realize it follows them, they can't seem to dodge it once it's targeting them...or maybe they can juke it at the last second with vault or teleport? I dunno.
It seems like there's no way out of it unless you have specific invincibility/unstopppable/stasis abilities like Jo, murky, or anyone with ice block.
Also kinda weird that he's the first hero that has 4 basic abilities untalented?
Ah, someone pointed out that they show bonespear at the very end.
Well, Rexxar sorta has four abilities with Misha, Focus.
Like, internal testing is hard, dude. They can only test so much, in a limited amount of time, with a limited amount of people, with a limited amount of mental bandwidth.
I think it took me 2 games against Li-Ming to figure out she was OP. Rehgar, I can see it being tougher because his impact is less in-your-face.
They just need to fix Arthas's survivability. He's super squishy these days. With the low TTK meta, he barely even has the opportunity to eat ghouls. And the Blood Tap talent is nearly worthless because he rarely gets more than 2-3 autos in a fight period. Again, due to TTK.
I've played both with and against Aba mines. Especially as a stealther, the slowing mines are incredibly annoying. But at the same time I never felt like they were a problem. And yeah, BHB is the only place I go mines build. Otherwise the mines just don't feel impactful enough. Sure, you do some damage and dismount someone going from A to B but that damage rarely adds up to anything meaningful because they can just get topped off.
Also, Aba's average winrate is a meaningless number. Those who play him well have a high winrate and those who play average or worse have a terrible winrate.
2 sec root on a 2 second delay from a melee specialist. it'll be good, doubt it'll be op. many of the melee characters he'd want to use it on can burst heroes down in less time than that, and the ranged characters have enough time to escape to safety before it lands. as a win more ability to punish at the end of a fight or to pick off someone way out of position it'll be really good, but i don't see it being that insanely powerful at the high end. malf's roots are nearly as good and also have brutal zoning potential and nobody is calling them op.
Posts
You can't heal what's dies in 2 seconds. You can't heal someone off solo laning and feeding. Different healers produce high number in certain environments, and certain healers do a lot of free unnecessary healing that inflates their numbers.
the cause of this bug was hilarious btw
under certain conditions, stitches' hook physics geo would scale up to collide with the entire map
Not gonna lie, that makes it worth it. That's awesome.
Stitches was literally hooking the entire world.
Steam: adamjnet
Not yet, we've seen like 2 screen shots
Hoping for a video today, but nothing official
Fixed that for you
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
I spent like 20 minutes looking for gameplay footage yesterday.
All I found was the video showcasing his 3D model and different skins which came out with the other Arthas skins, etc..
I could've sworn I posted what I found. -_-'
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
This is usually out at least a week before release, right?
Anything special they're waiting on? Tax return day or something?
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
This is pseudo normal, we've seen this before.
I'm suspecting the reveal video later today.
I think so, something like that
Either they're ignoring their playtesters or he's full of shit.
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
WOOT
I mean, at least with Li-ming, most pros consider her the least impactful of the 3 mages since her skillshots are easy to dodge and she has no CC. afaik she was barely picked in the korean tournament that happened last week, and usually only after Jaina and Kael got banned or picked. Not hard to imagine them thinking talents like Ess of Johan are fine if you barely ever get to land an orb.
At first glace, I would agree. There have been games where I've been completely locked down by Abathur mines, missed an objective, and can't do anything about it. To be honest I think the way mines work now, especially if you include a slow, is kind of bullshit. Especially now that TTK is much shorter and CC is that much more valuable, getting hit with something that you can't even see or (for some classes) even if you know where it is, can't clear unless you can see first, is frustrating.
It would almost be better if he had larger mines that were always visible and lasted much shorter but had a commensurately shorter cooldown and activation time. This would make them much more of an active ability, but also much more useful in team fights, while also providing an active counterplay (don't step on them, kill them before moving, etc.).
Ab does have a pretty low win rate, so in the grand scheme of things this is likely pretty low on the priority list (if there at all), but I'd be open to a change in Abathur's mines if it came along with a buff that made him more balanced overall. In general his abilities feel really "passive", but a lot of that is out of necessity, because without fire-and-forget stuff like locusts and mines, he would be impossible to play usefully without Korean levels of APS.
You can't really make mines more active because the whole point of them is that they are what he does between his active stuff. It's why they have charges. It's why his locusts are passive too. Hell, it's why he has only 2 skills. The whole point of his kit is hat and then stuff to do during hat cooldown. The more active you make the non-hat part of his kit the more you encourage him to not hat which is not imo the point of his design.
In general I think mine build can be extremely frustrating to play against but on some level that's the entire point. And I'm not sure what you could do to change that without entirely destroying that part of his kit and that build or just making him generally worse. Lower the slow maybe? I don't know.
there was a game i played 2 days ago on dragon shire where their abathur just laid 5-6 mines in the entrance to the bottom shrine bush over and over and over. i was playing teleport li ming so once we got 7 i basically was babysitting the mine bush because 2 of our team died to it in the early game even though i pinged danger on it a bunch. i'd like those minetraps to be less viable somehow, i don't really feel like the intended use for mines was shove 15 in a bush and have a squishy explode because they walked into invisible damage. but abathur is also in a really bad place winrate wise so i don't really know what the solution is.
"Man, randomly getting super slowed is annoying, but at least we have like an 80% better chance to win the game because the other team has Abathur and we don't."
People need to just suck it up and know that if they're playing against an Abathur, mines are a possibility. Don't face check bushes unless you are specifically mine-sweeping. Don't run through the "obvious paths" to objectives. Abathur players who have been in the business for a while know what the common routes are to places, and they will have those mined. You can avoid the mines by not going the way the Abathur player expects you to go.
Alternatively, if it's HL and draft is a possibility, bring reveal. If it's blind pick in QM, if you yourself don't draft a hero with reveal, you have no grounds for complaining. Solution - draft reveal or queue with a reveal hero yourself.
A nuisance, most of the time.
If you know their aba went mine build (check the talent screen, check it a few seconds after each enemy tier), then don't walk past the obvious "THIS IS WHERE A MINE SHOULD GO" spots.
Even still, a mine build really doesn't help in a team fight and makes the aba a very passive style which isn't too good in the long run.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Now, I certainly understand the issue of picking Kerrigan over Reghar in HL. I'm not defending that. And also, statistics aren't everything... but of course that's my point. It looks like there's a lot of valid hero choices right now. If people complain about a Kerrigan pick in HL, solely on the basis of hotslogs percentages, that seems kind of silly to me.
But okay, here's the counter-argument: If Team A picks two 53% heroes, and Team B picks two 47% heroes, perhaps Team A has an even BIGGER advantage now. That's possible, but I would need to see some hard data before I would worry about that. Some characters work together well and some don't, and I would argue that synergy between characters' abilities probably overrides the "statistical synergy" of two 53% heroes.
Now 14 out of 48 still represents 30% of the roster, but at least it leaves most of the roster as viable choices (barring the first pick and maybe the second, based on the map).
My BoardGameGeek profile
Battle.net: TheGerm#1430 (Hearthstone, Destiny 2)
If you add any form of counter play to mines, you effectively remove a large chunk of the only way Aba has to make up for not being a body.
And based on his win % I think that is unnecessary. So what if it can be frusterating to hit a mine? If you play the game well, it won't bother you as much cause you will likely win due to other advantages.
They already are. The mine +damage talent is a non-stacking dot for exactly that reason.
Mine traps in general are fun but low impact most of the time. Haunted Mines and some spots on Dragon Shire are about the only places they work really well and even there in my experience they were more fun then super efficient. Difficult to land kills with and they give up map control.
Good mine build play discourages traps. The best use of the upgraded mines is to spread them out over large areas so people get hit with one mine after another every few seconds. This maximizes the damage and the slow and the reveal.
There is a greater joy my friend. It's to be had on Blackheart's Bay.
A well maintained mine field blanketing the area to the enemy's side of the coin turn in is a thing of beauty.
If done properly and supported by your team, the enemy will simply give up even bothering trying to turn coins in after a certain point. They will fear the area as nothing else. It's glorious to behold.
The real question is, are Abathur's mines fun to play both with and against?
To play devil's advocate: I can see how they're fun to use, but I'm not sure how they're fun to play against. The invisibility combined with the slow aspect of it is what I think is the biggest problem, because not all heroes have a counter to something that is invisible. And, as I mentioned before, even if you know it's there, some heroes can't attack them unless they are "revealed". I don't play Ab so maybe my opinion doesn't matter, but if I did I think I'd be willing to trade in the invisible+slow mines for a more counter-able skill that also provided a buff to his win rate.
Ehhh not quite either of those.
He also clarified something else:
Like, internal testing is hard, dude. They can only test so much, in a limited amount of time, with a limited amount of people, with a limited amount of mental bandwidth.
Then they toss it out there and TONS AND TONS of people are playing it and they get WAY more data than they ever could internally.
Also, because sometimes it's really hard to determine if something is OP or just plain strong. That's not an easy task. Either way? At the end of the day, I'd rather them release OP Heroes than UP ones. We've already seen what a string of UP Hero releases look like. Rexxar, Artanis, Lunara, all were horrendously underpowered on release.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
holy shit somehow i thought his E was a ground targeted ability, not just click on a hero
that's insane
It seems like there's no way out of it unless you have specific invincibility/unstopppable/stasis abilities like Jo, murky, or anyone with ice block.
Also kinda weird that he's the first hero that has 4 basic abilities untalented?
Ah, someone pointed out that they show bonespear at the very end.
His Bone Armor is more or less a D ability, just placed on 1 instead. Well, except that he also has a separate Trait as well anyway.
And yeah, Bone Prison is gonna be nuts. There is a 2 second delay, so you have some time to react to it, but you're still gonna get rooted either way.
I was theorycrafting an Arthas/Xul combo. Imagine how nuts that'd be? Permaslow from Arthas's E, use Howling Blast to lead into Bone Prison. Murder squad.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Well, Rexxar sorta has four abilities with Misha, Focus.
I think it took me 2 games against Li-Ming to figure out she was OP. Rehgar, I can see it being tougher because his impact is less in-your-face.
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
Also, Aba's average winrate is a meaningless number. Those who play him well have a high winrate and those who play average or worse have a terrible winrate.
Switch: 6589-6405-3399
XuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Master Skin is pretty neat, too!
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Switch: 6589-6405-3399