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[XCOM] You can't parry a shotgun. The Resistance is Live!

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Posts

  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    I have to admit I'm a bit frustrated. I'm trying to find the information (original) where Solomon and others discussed how the aliens can "win" by actively producing the avatar project. Unfortunately, all I find are endless threads on forums/reddit speculating about what the avatar project actually is, but not the original information talking about how the aliens go about making it without giving a shit what you're doing. I remember it specifically being in response to players delaying out the story in XCOM by not doing the alien base before they had plasma/titan armor etc. It's an accepted fact they can win if you don't try to stop them, because they can actively pursue victory without the players action, but I would like to find where Jake actually says this.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    An issue with the "Beaglerush fix" is that you're now completely boned if an enemy pod manages to sneak up on you during concealment. The example someone gave was that Beagle was using a highway during one of his streams when an advent pod popped up behind him via a ladder, flanking his whole squad. Under the new rules, the flanking Advent would have gotten free shots at him from behind, in addition to ruining his concealment, so I guess watching your back while in concealment is going to be super important now.

    This seems less like an issue, and more like the natural result of armed soldiers discovering your dude.

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  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    I mean, when a Floater lands a 1% crit on your guy in full cover and sets off a panic spiral that ultimately squad wipes you (which you didn't prevent because you couldn't), we consider that 1) bullshit but 2) completely fair and a natural consequence of having probability-based mechanics in the game.

    Why is it any different when, in a rare instance, a pod patrols out of a previously hidden location (which you didn't check because you couldn't) and gets a shot on you that ultimately results in a squad wipe?

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    WACriminal wrote: »
    I mean, when a Floater lands a 1% crit on your guy in full cover and sets off a panic spiral that ultimately squad wipes you (which you didn't prevent because you couldn't), we consider that 1) bullshit but 2) completely fair and a natural consequence of having probability-based mechanics in the game.

    Why is it any different when, in a rare instance, a pod patrols out of a previously hidden location (which you didn't check because you couldn't) and gets a shot on you that ultimately results in a squad wipe?

    You can't be crit if you hunker.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    An issue with the "Beaglerush fix" is that you're now completely boned if an enemy pod manages to sneak up on you during concealment. The example someone gave was that Beagle was using a highway during one of his streams when an advent pod popped up behind him via a ladder, flanking his whole squad. Under the new rules, the flanking Advent would have gotten free shots at him from behind, in addition to ruining his concealment, so I guess watching your back while in concealment is going to be super important now.

    This seems less like an issue, and more like the natural result of armed soldiers discovering your dude.

    Yes; in this extremely realistic military simulator where B movie aliens in iteral flying saucers have invaded the Earth, and the only thing that can stop them is a 6 man squad packing small arms...

    With Love and Courage
    cB557programjunkie
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    WACriminal wrote: »
    I mean, when a Floater lands a 1% crit on your guy in full cover and sets off a panic spiral that ultimately squad wipes you (which you didn't prevent because you couldn't), we consider that 1) bullshit but 2) completely fair and a natural consequence of having probability-based mechanics in the game.

    Why is it any different when, in a rare instance, a pod patrols out of a previously hidden location (which you didn't check because you couldn't) and gets a shot on you that ultimately results in a squad wipe?

    You can't be crit if you hunker.

    You don't have to be crit to panic on a freak 1% hit during your hunker.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    It's like people don't know what "That's XCOM, baby!!!" means anymore.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    WACriminal wrote: »
    I mean, when a Floater lands a 1% crit on your guy in full cover and sets off a panic spiral that ultimately squad wipes you (which you didn't prevent because you couldn't), we consider that 1) bullshit but 2) completely fair and a natural consequence of having probability-based mechanics in the game.

    Why is it any different when, in a rare instance, a pod patrols out of a previously hidden location (which you didn't check because you couldn't) and gets a shot on you that ultimately results in a squad wipe?

    You can't be crit if you hunker.

    You don't have to be crit to panic on a freak 1% hit during your hunker.

    No, but your soldiers only suffer low will (and thus proc panic) if they are brought below half health, which you can largely control.


    It's not nearly the same thing irregardless as taking a blue move (again, which is ostensibly safe, to delineate it from the riskier gold move option) and having aliens run up into your flank and blow you away without you having a chance to react.

    With Love and Courage
    cB557
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    The only exception is when ITT is enabled - and that options only pertains to robotics enemies that would otherwise overwatch.


    It's funny to me that @Dracomicron would earlier in the thread bitch about the Gangplank Cyberdisc, which is typically hated because it breaks the standard rules and does exactly what people are now proposing every pod should do, but now apparently is totes on board with enemies that immediately open up on you.

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
    cB557
  • LeumasWhiteLeumasWhite New ZealandRegistered User regular
    Again, this is a very niche scenario you're unhappy with. Can't scout a place? Just make sure you're on the other side of cover from it.

    It just seems weird to be caught up on this one mechanic when there's a whole lotta fuck-you waiting in the rest of XCOM. Like it's never been a super fair, 100% controllable game. Sometimes you'll just miss a bunch of shots, it happens.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    The Ender wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    EU/EW also didn't have concealment, which lets you move around with far greater safety and impunity.

    You're comparing apples to oranges, complaining one has to do different things than the other to function as intended.

    Again, after watching a LOT of XCOM 2, I am 100% absolutely certain this is something easily mitigated simply through intelligent gameplay. Being ambushed on your turn during concealment is something that is going to happen once in a blue moon, because every single advantage is on XCOMs side at this point. If you're careless enough to leave soldiers with their backs to a roof or facing away from a ladder, you deserve the consequences.

    Aegeri on
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    Elvenshae
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    EU/EW also didn't have concealment, which lets you move around with far greater safety and impunity.

    You're comparing apples to oranges, complaining one has to do different things than the other to function as intended.

    Again, after watching a LOT of XCOM 2, I am 100% absolutely certain this is something easily mitigated simply through intelligent gameplay. Being ambushed on your turn during concealment is something that is going to happen once in a blue moon, because every single advantage is on XCOMs side at this point. If you're careless enough to leave soldiers with their backs to a roof or facing away from a ladder, you deserve the consequences.

    It just annoys me that people flatly state something about nuCOM that isn't correct.

    No, you don't have to respect your flanks or move through cover. You've never had to do that, because there was no danger until you hit contact. Once you hit contact, you had to do everything in your power to minimize shots coming back at you - in the late game, that typically means killing everything in sight before it can have a turn.

    With Love and Courage
    cB557
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    The only exception is when ITT is enabled - and that options only pertains to robotics enemies that would otherwise overwatch.


    It's funny to me that @Dracomicron would earlier in the thread bitch about the Gangplank Cyberdisc, which is typically hated because it breaks the standard rules and does exactly what people are now proposing every pod should do, but now apparently is totes on board with enemies that immediately open up on you.

    I think that's specifically because it's atypical behavior. If it were the rule instead of the exception (as it will be in the sequel), people wouldn't...well, they'd still bitch about it, but it would be more like the "GOD FUCK THIN MEN" garden variety of X-bitching.

    Dracomicron
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    This game needs to come out because y'all are clearly Jonesing.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    The Ender wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    EU/EW also didn't have concealment, which lets you move around with far greater safety and impunity.

    You're comparing apples to oranges, complaining one has to do different things than the other to function as intended.

    Again, after watching a LOT of XCOM 2, I am 100% absolutely certain this is something easily mitigated simply through intelligent gameplay. Being ambushed on your turn during concealment is something that is going to happen once in a blue moon, because every single advantage is on XCOMs side at this point. If you're careless enough to leave soldiers with their backs to a roof or facing away from a ladder, you deserve the consequences.

    It just annoys me that people flatly state something about nuCOM that isn't correct.

    You also couldn't get 2 free turns of shooting either by exploiting an AI quirk in the original game.

    So what is "correct" is utterly irrelevant. While concealed you need to watch your flanks to remain concealed, which was already true. Now you have the issue that the enemy may choose to shoot exposed soldiers on a reveal, making watching your flanks more important.

    However, your argument just falls flat to anyone who has watched enough of the game so far, because it's amazingly self-evident how easy it is to avoid aliens in 90% of situations while concealed. The detection radius is really small and both scenarios you describe are immensely obvious if you're looking for them (ladders and being dropped on from a building). All you have to do is put cover between you and the hazard and instantly negate the problem!

    Concealment has special rules and that's perfectly fine, because the game then reverts entirely to normal function immediately after.

    Aegeri on
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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    WACriminal wrote: »
    The Ender wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    The only exception is when ITT is enabled - and that options only pertains to robotics enemies that would otherwise overwatch.


    It's funny to me that @Dracomicron would earlier in the thread bitch about the Gangplank Cyberdisc, which is typically hated because it breaks the standard rules and does exactly what people are now proposing every pod should do, but now apparently is totes on board with enemies that immediately open up on you.

    I think that's specifically because it's atypical behavior. If it were the rule instead of the exception (as it will be in the sequel), people wouldn't...well, they'd still bitch about it, but it would be more like the "GOD FUCK THIN MEN" garden variety of X-bitching.

    If that were the typical enemy behavior, the game actually wouldn't work well at all. We already know this because that's how the game's development started - with a very traditional turn structure, aliens spotting you and firing, the player able to catch out aliens the same way, etc.

    It turns out this boils the game down into an incredibly boring series of die rolls where player decisions aren't interesting (this was mostly information gathered by actually cobbling together a PnP prototype of the game at Sid Meier's home and playing through a few rounds).


    This is how 'blue moves are safe' started and how the mechanics for discovery were hammered out; where risk was tied to alien shots, which were turned into a proxy of player movement (you choose where to move & what position you'll be in if/when you discover aliens).

    With Love and Courage
    cB557
  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Wait are people upset they have to actually protect their flanks now? That's like, always been a thing. New game new tactics! The whole "stand around in the open" thing is super lame.

    No, it hasn't been. In EU/EW, you do not have to worry about enemy fire or your flanks until you've made contact. It's a fundamental rule of the game.

    The only exception is when ITT is enabled - and that options only pertains to robotics enemies that would otherwise overwatch.


    It's funny to me that @Dracomicron would earlier in the thread bitch about the Gangplank Cyberdisc, which is typically hated because it breaks the standard rules and does exactly what people are now proposing every pod should do, but now apparently is totes on board with enemies that immediately open up on you.

    I mean before those games. In those games, the idea that you can let your soldiers be exposed seems very weird to me. I much prefer these changes.

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote:
    You also couldn't get 2 free turns of shooting either by exploiting an AI quirk in the original game.

    No; what you could do instead is exploit Mimetic Skin to spot enemies out of cover, then use Squad Sight + In the Zone to 'activate' the pod by killing an alien for free, then use your spotter's Close & Personal to kill his friends via Alloy Cannon.

    Oh noes! Risk free kills! Aliens can't even shoot back! 0/10 terrible game!


    Or we can go back to oldCOM, where you could just chain-MC aliens and wipe every map while sitting snugly in the back of the Avenger. What an awful game! Only 1 way to play it!


    Exploits and abuse of mechanics are always going to be a thing in a complex game, and I don't see anything wrong with that. Certainly I think you're overstating how much the Beaglebush would've obviously ruined the game and become 100% the only way to play.

    With Love and Courage
    cB557
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Honestly, your complaints are sounding more and more irrelevant at this point the more you talk about the original games mechanics. The original game also did NOT have concealment, which when used "correctly" let a player effectively take 2 turns of shooting - one with the enemies having zero cover - before the aliens could even remotely respond. This addresses and penalizes trying to deliberately expose agents to do so. Afterwards the mechanic does not exist anymore and is irrelevant. It's a smart and extremely effective solution for deliberately baiting concealment exposure during the aliens turn.

    Its effects on anything else will be utterly minimal. I point to hours of footage of the game being played, where the players squad is so rarely caught exposed by aliens during concealment as to be a rare and remarkable event. I've watched Beagle, ChristopherOdd, Northernlion and others, all of whom have had concealment broken by aliens unintentionally happen a total of 3 times. Between the three of them, they must have uploaded over 40 hours (or more) of XCOM 2 footage.

    It's not an issue.
    The Ender wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote:
    You also couldn't get 2 free turns of shooting either by exploiting an AI quirk in the original game.

    No; what you could do instead is exploit Mimetic Skin to spot enemies out of cover, then use Squad Sight + In the Zone to 'activate' the pod by killing an alien for free, then use your spotter's Close & Personal to kill his friends via Alloy Cannon.

    Mimetic Skin was utterly broken and was a poorly implemented mechanic actually. It's a good example of how the late game in the original XCOM was a trivial walk in the park, while all difficulty was front loaded heavily into the first 3 months. Knowing you have won the game easily, even on Impossible Ironman, by getting to the game breaking elements like mimetic skin is actually a knock against the original game.

    So yeah, you're actually right that this sort of thing DID make the original a worse game.

    Edit: And yes, these strategies being so utterly efficient that they make a clear "Best way to play" is actually highly bad for the game. The Beaglebush is a prime example of an overpowered tactic, which clearly makes an effective "This is the only way to do so" mechanic. When every single youtuber and streamer is going "The most effective way people have found to break concealment is to let the aliens do it on their turn" and then every single one of them starts doing it, you have a problem. Because objectively speaking, it was the most optimal and best way to do it every time, especially because concealment only works fairly for "normal" intended gameplay when the alien patrols are effectively predictable.

    This is the simplest and best fix.

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote:
    Mimetic Skin was utterly broken and was a poorly implemented mechanic actually. It's a good example of how the late game in the original XCOM was a trivial walk in the park, while all difficulty was front loaded heavily into the first 3 months. Knowing you have won the game easily, even on Impossible Ironman, by getting to the game breaking elements like mimetic skin is actually a knock against the original game.

    So yeah, you're actually right that this sort of thing DID make the original a worse game.

    Yeah, I knew you'd move this goalpost.

    Terrible game. Such a terrible game that you've sunk... how many hours into it, again?

    And, of course, so awful that it has you hyped-up for the upcoming sequel.

    With Love and Courage
    cB557
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    The Ender wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote:
    Mimetic Skin was utterly broken and was a poorly implemented mechanic actually. It's a good example of how the late game in the original XCOM was a trivial walk in the park, while all difficulty was front loaded heavily into the first 3 months. Knowing you have won the game easily, even on Impossible Ironman, by getting to the game breaking elements like mimetic skin is actually a knock against the original game.

    So yeah, you're actually right that this sort of thing DID make the original a worse game.

    Yeah, I knew you'd move this goalpost.

    What goalpost have I actually moved? Mimetic skin is a terrible mechanic and makes the game far too easy, but it's also way at the end of the tech tree and not easy to get (given that you need tons of meld for each soldier you give it to).

    Seriously, do you even understand what "Moving the goalposts" mean? I'm entirely consistent that mechanics which completely prevent enemies from being able to respond - giving you two effective rounds of shooting before anything can shoot back - are poor for the game. Concealment was not designed, at all, to allow you to do that. So to counter it required using a mechanic where the aliens would shoot the exposed soldier.

    None of your other arguments have been based on what regularly happens - it's not like we're short of gameplay footage now - to actually explain that it's a significant problem for normal gameplay. Noting that we still do have mimetic skin in XCOM 2, in the form of the Phantom Ranger, so it will be interesting to see if we do end up with the originals bland "Move up with scout, sniper everything, repeat" structure of gameplay. Hopefully the aliens have some way of dealing with this effectively, because they felt the need to fix the Beaglebush but haven't (apparently) dealt with this tactic.
    And, of course, so awful that it has you hyped-up for the upcoming sequel.

    I no longer play it after I beat I/I because the only part of the game that's exciting is the early game. After the early game and you get the new techs in EW - I think EU is a superior game to EW btw - like Mimetic Skin, the game simply is a meandering turkey shoot. It's not fun or interesting anymore, because mimetic skin is such a clear "best" option that nothing else is worth using. At least there was some kind of choice between titan armor and ghost armor in EU, but Mimetic Skin is basically like super ghost armor and an infinitely better choice.

    So yeah, I'm happy that they are trying to make difficulty more consistent - even on Legendary - and hopefully address overpowered "Clearly the best way to do something" tactics. Many missions in XCOM 2 have round limits or timers precisely to force the player into adopting tactics that are suboptimal - EG anything other than slowly crawling forward with overwatch.

    Edit: Also I would say I easily put 5x the amount of hours into EU than I put into EW. EW is badly broken on a lot of different levels. I'm even sure I've had multiple rants in various XCOM threads about how broken and bland I find EW because of the overpowered elements like Mimetic Skin.

    Edit2: It's also worth noting I am okay with soldiers having more game breaking abilities towards the end of the game, if aliens get something to stay along with them and make it interesting. In EU they barely did, but EW did a really poor job there because they gave the high end aliens virtually nothing while giving the player tons of way better abilities/stuff. The problem with the Beaglebush was it was essentially an absolutely free kill on the first group of aliens, defied what the core game mechanic was supposed to be and greatly decreases the amount of threat the player is exposed to early on. It needed to be fixed.

    Now if the phantom ranger and friends has the same issue is another debate.

    Aegeri on
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  • RendRend Registered User regular
    BREAKING NEWS
    GAMES CAN HAVE FUNDAMENTAL FLAWS WHOSE REMOVAL WOULD MAKE THEM MUCH BETTER AND STILL BE GREAT GAMES

    MORE AT 11

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote:
    I no longer play it after I beat I/I because the only part of the game that's exciting is the early game. After the early game and you get the new techs in EW - I think EU is a superior game to EW btw - like Mimetic Skin, the game simply is a meandering turkey shoot. It's not fun or interesting anymore, because mimetic skin is such a clear "best" option that nothing else is worth using. At least there was some kind of choice between titan armor and ghost armor in EU, but Mimetic Skin is basically like super ghost armor and an infinitely better choice.

    XCOM has always been that way. That's the entire concept: the early game is very difficult, you tech into alien bullshit, you act out your overpowered revenge fantasy against the aliens. All the way from UFO: Enemy Unknown to Terror From the Deep to Apocalypse to EU/EW, this motif is consistent and, for most of the player base, enjoyable.

    Then after you beat it you can play around with different self imposed challenges and/or mods and/or Second Wave options.

    With Love and Courage
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    If we're going to compare to EU, it's not like there are similar situations where a "perfectly safe" approach might leave you completely goosed because of bad luck. Like explosives during a terror mission blowing out a wall between you and yet-unseen floaters/chryallids, or even just rockets themselves and that 10% chance of them not doing what you want them to do, or the last blue move you make popping a Mectoid/Cyberdisc pod because the soldier in question decided to go left instead of right around a tree. (or in my case, it involved 2 mectoid pods and a car) forcing everyone to scramble into the best unflank(able) cover they can find instead of hunker/overwatch (and you did wait until they'd all did their first moves before putting them into hunker/overwatch, right?)

    Maybe it hurts more because you're suppose to be "safe" (or at least, more safe) in concealment, and this makes it seem like it's even less, but I like to see it as greater risk for greater reward.

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    Aegeri
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    The Ender wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote:
    I no longer play it after I beat I/I because the only part of the game that's exciting is the early game. After the early game and you get the new techs in EW - I think EU is a superior game to EW btw - like Mimetic Skin, the game simply is a meandering turkey shoot. It's not fun or interesting anymore, because mimetic skin is such a clear "best" option that nothing else is worth using. At least there was some kind of choice between titan armor and ghost armor in EU, but Mimetic Skin is basically like super ghost armor and an infinitely better choice.

    XCOM has always been that way.

    And for a very very long time, I've called that a significant problem and flaw in the game and it still is. I hate to break this to you, but have you been watching anything released for XCOM 2? Because Legendary difficulty in XCOM 2 is infinitely more forgiving than it is in XCOM EU/EW (this is without people exploiting Beaglebush as well) in the early game. In fact, the entire early game is more forgiving in general and it is apparently later on (past what we've seen in preview builds) where the aliens get serious. Combined with the fact the aliens have an actual objective to win that they actively work towards, XCOM 2 seems more focused on evening out its difficulty curve than the original (1994 or EU). Additionally, from various official streams and such, it seems if you delay out the game in XCOM 2 too much the aliens later on can simply overwhelm you entirely. So it seems to have a difficulty curve that focuses on giving the player a chance to win, which if you don't take the aliens then go "Well, looks like we win instead" by completing the avatar project.

    Also for the record, I played on PS3 so was not able to try Long War, which significantly answers a lot of my problems with the late game in EU/EW by giving the aliens later in the game more tactical/interesting options.

    Edit: I wish it was easier to search streaming sites like twitch. The developers have discussed difficulty quite a bit and one of their goals in XCOM 2 is to make the late game more interesting and challenging, while having the early game not as much as a gigantic punch to the dick (ala I/I in XCOM). Alas, searching for anything specific on twitch is simple madness.

    Aegeri on
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  • DuriniaDurinia Evolved from Space Potatoes Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    It's not fun or interesting anymore, because mimetic skin is such a clear "best" option that nothing else is worth using.

    I rarely used it, actually. Punching Sectopods in the face with fully upgraded MECs after dropping EMPs was way more viscerally satisfying, and plenty effective.

    Don't disagree with the turkeyshoot bit though. Even before EW, the late game for EU felt like mopping up the trash mobs after dunking a raid boss.

    For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
    --Mark Twain
    cB557
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    I never used MECs much on I/I because getting them to survive any mission with thin men in it was such a nightmare I just gave up. I usually saved all of my meld for upgrading mimetic skin and various other gene mod upgrades. MECs are really good if you get them into the later part of the game with upgrades though. If there is one thing that EW did that I am delighted XCOM2 took to heart and implemented it's the greater use of melee abilities/weapons.

    I will defend the use of swords in this game to the bitter end.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
    Durinia
  • DuriniaDurinia Evolved from Space Potatoes Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I never used MECs much on I/I because getting them to survive any mission with thin men in it was such a nightmare I just gave up. I usually saved all of my meld for upgrading mimetic skin and various other gene mod upgrades. MECs are really good if you get them into the later part of the game with upgrades though. If there is one thing that EW did that I am delighted XCOM2 took to heart and implemented it's the greater use of melee abilities/weapons.

    I will defend the use of swords in this game to the bitter end.

    I always upgraded my MEC troopers on the "tanky" side of the tree, especially when it came to skills that limit damage bursts and repair automatically - and always used heavies for the defensive bonus. There's some risk until you get a couple of promotions, but I think I can count maybe 1 or 2 MEC troopers I've lost past that point ever.

    I'm all for swords, but I will miss punching people through walls. :bigfrown:

    For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
    --Mark Twain
    Mr Ray
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    We haven't seen all of the stuff and tech in the game by any means.

    I wouldn't put it past them to include an upgrade for the exosuit (or similar) that allows us to continue punching aliens through walls.

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    Durinia
  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Maddoc wrote: »
    Mr Ray wrote: »
    An issue with the "Beaglerush fix" is that you're now completely boned if an enemy pod manages to sneak up on you during concealment. The example someone gave was that Beagle was using a highway during one of his streams when an advent pod popped up behind him via a ladder, flanking his whole squad. Under the new rules, the flanking Advent would have gotten free shots at him from behind, in addition to ruining his concealment, so I guess watching your back while in concealment is going to be super important now.

    This seems less like an issue, and more like the natural result of armed soldiers discovering your dude.

    Yes; in this extremely realistic military simulator where B movie aliens in iteral flying saucers have invaded the Earth, and the only thing that can stop them is a 6 man squad packing small arms...

    Doesn't have to be realistic, just has to make sense

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    @Aegeri

    You're wrong about the penalty solution. A normal over watch shot is made at 70% acc. A dashing enemy changes this to 49%. At 65% base accuracy this is a 30% to hit penalty about half way between low and high cover. At 80% base accuracy it's equivalent to high cover.

    Exposing aliens in their turn does not guarantee you flanking shots after they break. A single exposed shot at full % can very well be better than two shots into enemies in low/high cover. And as such the penalty method does not come close to guarantee that exposing aliens on their turn is necessarily optimal.

    It's true that concealed OW is better. But it's no more an issue to have concealed OW bonuses only work on your turn than it is to have aliens sometimes shoot you if they expose you in their turn. In both cases you're writing special rules.

    The proposed solution is actually kind of bad and a better solution would have the aliens do literally nothing. This is because if the aliens do nothing then it proceeds to the players turn precisely as if they had decided to set the ambush in the intended fashion. Then, as soon as the player does anything it would return to normal.

    Going to over watch is better than shooting. Anything is better than shooting really.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    @Aegeri

    You're wrong about the penalty solution. A normal over watch shot is made at 70% acc.

    There is no penalty for shooting in overwatch on concealment. When shooting from OW on a turn you're concealed, you're shooting at full accuracy.
    A dashing enemy changes this to 49%.

    They don't dash. They only get a partial "stutter" move when they are attacked after an ambush - it's 50% of their regular scatter move. The intent is that if you ambush them in the right spot they might end up being forced into suboptimal (often) or even no cover (rarely).
    Exposing aliens in their turn does not guarantee you flanking shots after they break.

    Watch Beaglerush or anyone doing this. Because of the combination of the partial stutter and how close you can be while doing so, flanking the enemies is often trivial.
    The proposed solution is actually kind of bad

    It's not. It gives a risk/reward to the tactic and already has numerous viable counters, such as a grenadier + blast padding + specialist ability to add defense. That's using what the game gives you, accepting a risk, mitigating it and taking a strong advantage in return. As opposed to "Here is a free lunch, enjoy!" that was happening before.

    That's precisely why it's better than plainly giving them some kind of super dodge and similar.
    Going to over watch is better than shooting. Anything is better than shooting really.

    Actually that's a terrible solution. When you're damaged or hit in XCOM 2 you remove overwatch, which means the player can trivially shoot all 3 aliens (they'll be shooting exposed aliens with full accuracy), then move back into cover or similar with no risk. Yeah there will be those turns where you miss 3-4 80% shots in a row (which does and will continue to happen!) but it's still pretty much ensuring the aliens are screwed.

    Their solution is the right one. It gives a suitable risk when you try to abuse the system and doesn't actually remove using the tactic if you want to use it - you just need to build the right kind of soldier/equipment to do so. Again, choices make a game deeper and this makes the player have to choose if they want to build appropriately to use it or not.

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    Tayrun
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    @Aegeri

    You're wrong about the penalty solution. A normal over watch shot is made at 70% acc. A dashing enemy changes this to 49%. At 65% base accuracy this is a 30% to hit penalty about half way between low and high cover. At 80% base accuracy it's equivalent to high cover.

    Exposing aliens in their turn does not guarantee you flanking shots after they break. A single exposed shot at full % can very well be better than two shots into enemies in low/high cover. And as such the penalty method does not come close to guarantee that exposing aliens on their turn is necessarily optimal.

    It's true that concealed OW is better. But it's no more an issue to have concealed OW bonuses only work on your turn than it is to have aliens sometimes shoot you if they expose you in their turn. In both cases you're writing special rules.

    The proposed solution is actually kind of bad and a better solution would have the aliens do literally nothing. This is because if the aliens do nothing then it proceeds to the players turn precisely as if they had decided to set the ambush in the intended fashion. Then, as soon as the player does anything it would return to normal.

    Going to over watch is better than shooting. Anything is better than shooting really.

    I still think the best solution would simply be to immediately give the aliens a free scramble for cover move the moment your units hit their tiles, without allowing for Overwatch shots. There is still an element of punishment, but it also allows leeway for situations like inevitable spawn / LoS bugs, misclicks, etc. You don't instantly die just because a pod walks through supposedly impassable terrain or whatever (and let's face it - this is a Firaxis product, stuff like that is going to happen, the mechanics should allow flexibility for it) - you just lose your concealment, and the game proceeds from there like a standard EU/EW experience.


    But whatever. Given that I can apparently switch it off if I don't like it (I'll certainly try it first to see if it's as bad as I dread), I'm fine with it.

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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    The modding is apparently super easy and they even make comments as to what changes will do what. I am wondering if Long War XCOM 2 is going to come out with the game as well (they apparently already have it).

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I have to admit I'm a bit frustrated. I'm trying to find the information (original) where Solomon and others discussed how the aliens can "win" by actively producing the avatar project. Unfortunately, all I find are endless threads on forums/reddit speculating about what the avatar project actually is, but not the original information talking about how the aliens go about making it without giving a shit what you're doing. I remember it specifically being in response to players delaying out the story in XCOM by not doing the alien base before they had plasma/titan armor etc. It's an accepted fact they can win if you don't try to stop them, because they can actively pursue victory without the players action, but I would like to find where Jake actually says this.

    Not Jake, but Garth says the same thing in the Giant Bomb quick look EX.

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  • Vic_HazardVic_Hazard Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Aegeri wrote: »
    I never used MECs much on I/I because getting them to survive any mission with thin men in it was such a nightmare I just gave up. I usually saved all of my meld for upgrading mimetic skin and various other gene mod upgrades. MECs are really good if you get them into the later part of the game with upgrades though. If there is one thing that EW did that I am delighted XCOM2 took to heart and implemented it's the greater use of melee abilities/weapons.

    I will defend the use of swords in this game to the bitter end.

    They're easier to keep alive than soldiers. A MEC won't get oneshot, the soldier probably will. On early I/I missions with thin men my MO was that they should never be allowed to fire, else you get screwed.

    It seems that legendary xcom 2 is more balanced than EW, since the early game vs mid game difficulty curve was probably the biggest problem with EW. I hope they really ratched it up later in the game though since mid-lategame in I/I EW was actually way too easy.


    Edit: I will say that it's really weird to have 1,5 pages talking about how bugs will ruin the game before the game is even released. I guess I'll put my dudes into cover during concealment.

    Edit 2: I wonder how tanky you can go, people are clearly gonna try making a tank that soaks those activation shots for the ambush...

    Vic_Hazard on
  • Mr RayMr Ray Sarcasm sphereRegistered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    The modding is apparently super easy and they even make comments as to what changes will do what. I am wondering if Long War XCOM 2 is going to come out with the game as well (they apparently already have it).

    I doubt they've had time to make something as huge and complex as Long War in the time available to them, but I'm hoping for something interesting.

    Space.
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    One thing I can't find actually: Is there any kind of multiplayer? Kind of hope they didn't bother wasting the resources again or they at least improved it.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • alingisalingis Registered User regular
    Aegeri wrote: »
    For the record, I'm going to mod the game so that aliens after concealment phase can scatter and shoot if discovered on their own turn (but not on XCOMs turn). So if I encounter them on my own turn, they just scatter. If encountered on theirs they can scatter and then take a shot.

    I like to keep things interesting and also discourage me from sitting in one place overwatching for 90% of the mission.

    We tried this solution and found it very punishing, but I'll add this mod to the list of simple game tweaks I'll release closer to launch.

    Dan Kaplan
    Lead Gameplay Programmer
    Firaxis Games
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