My hope for Kylo Dim is that his disillusionment, fear of prison, and the militants treatment of him allow the feds to make a deal with him. He seems ripe to roll on a bunch of them and get them locked up for their crimes for a long long time.
Why would they need anyone to turn on anyone? These guys committed their crimes on video and in public. No deals needed.
Infiltrate the entire militant organization. At the very least, the FBI has proven competent at the long game
Hopefully at least one of them will realize that their theories about government oppression and popular support didn't hold up against the actual actions of the FBI and the general population, and revise their beliefs to something more sane.
Cliven Bundy is seeking a public defender, and he still isn't changing his tune. Cognitive dissonance is strong with this group.
You could try cult deprogramming techniques, but I'm not exactly sure how legal/illegal it is. I assume that it's illegal but they generally hope that the person decides not to press charges by the time their done. Anyone else have more knowledge on this?
Hopefully at least one of them will realize that their theories about government oppression and popular support didn't hold up against the actual actions of the FBI and the general population, and revise their beliefs to something more sane.
Yeah I'm going to bet that's not really in the cards for any of them. They originally thought themselves oppressed and persecuted by the government. Now the government is actually prosecuting them. This is their prime time to double down on their "The government is out to get us" beliefs and rhetoric. I'd say that all of these people are likely lost for all time to thier crack pot beliefs, and if not forever it will at least be a long time before they snap to their senses.
Things like this happen all the time with wingnut groups, and it doesn't snap them back to their senses.
What happens is the less radical (but still radical!) members become disenfranchised and leave the movement. When this happens and the 'moderating' influences leave, the movement becomes even more radical and closes ranks. You'll also tend to get 'purity tests' to make sure people who remained in the movement are sufficiently radical, and the echo / bubble chamber effect becomes more pronounced.
Depending on the size / alignment of the moment, you'll either end up with a schism or the entire movement basically rallying around their chosen leader.
At that point, especially if you intertwine the white supremacist and hardcore evangelical movements that tend to go hand in hand with these militias, you've bascially got an apocalyptic militarized nationalistic cult.
Yay.
+1
Options
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
My hope for Kylo Dim is that his disillusionment, fear of prison, and the militants treatment of him allow the feds to make a deal with him. He seems ripe to roll on a bunch of them and get them locked up for their crimes for a long long time.
Why would they need anyone to turn on anyone? These guys committed their crimes on video and in public. No deals needed.
Infiltrate the entire militant organization. At the very least, the FBI has proven competent at the long game
It's not one organization. It a thousand 5-80 man operations of varying degrees of different political activism topics, militancy, and organization.
Heck, the Free Military of the Conch Republic is technically a militia group and their primary form of protest is drinking heavily on the weekends and occasionally throwing a boat parade.
So the people on the Bundy Ranch Facebook have been generating their own gravitational field with all the spinning they're doing. The latest thing is that the occupiers actually improved the reserve and that everybody else is lying about damage. The pictures are also lies.
DoctorArch on
Switch Friend Code: SW-6732-9515-9697
+1
Options
EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
I'm just picturing the "Lies... ALL LIES!" nazi woman from the Austin Powers films.
Hopefully at least one of them will realize that their theories about government oppression and popular support didn't hold up against the actual actions of the FBI and the general population, and revise their beliefs to something more sane.
Cliven Bundy is seeking a public defender, and he still isn't changing his tune. Cognitive dissonance is strong with this group.
You could try cult deprogramming techniques, but I'm not exactly sure how legal/illegal it is. I assume that it's illegal but they generally hope that the person decides not to press charges by the time their done. Anyone else have more knowledge on this?
Absent the kidnapping and false imprisonment, it's basically just a conversation. But add actual imprisonment (ie: government backing) and make this about a cult and that's definitely back in a no-good zone. The Wikipedia article on Deprogramming has a statement from the ACLU admonishing the practice in 1977 as a violation of religious freedom, and they're definitely not wrong.
But this isn't a religion it's a delusional world view. For atheists, like myself, that is about the smallest hair you could ever split; and for that reason, I'm not super comfortable giving the justice system an invitation to try. They would be wide open to lawsuits, and could very well lead to the Supremes doing just that.
Hopefully at least one of them will realize that their theories about government oppression and popular support didn't hold up against the actual actions of the FBI and the general population, and revise their beliefs to something more sane.
Cliven Bundy is seeking a public defender, and he still isn't changing his tune. Cognitive dissonance is strong with this group.
You could try cult deprogramming techniques, but I'm not exactly sure how legal/illegal it is. I assume that it's illegal but they generally hope that the person decides not to press charges by the time their done. Anyone else have more knowledge on this?
Absent the kidnapping and false imprisonment, it's basically just a conversation. But add actual imprisonment and make this about a cult and that's definitely back in a no-good zone. The Wikipedia article on Deprogramming has a statement from the ACLU admonishing the practice in 1977 as a violation of religious freedom, and they're definitely not wrong.
But this isn't a religion it's a delusional world view. For atheists, like myself, that is about the smallest hair you could ever split; and for that reason, I'm not super comfortable giving the justice system an invitation to try. They would be wide open to lawsuits, and could very well lead to the Supremes doing just that.
Yeah, barring an actual psychiatric hold by a real doctor I'm going to shy away from anything that even verges on some sort of deprogramming.
Add to that the fact that even quasi-governmental deprogramming (like, mandatory AA except for wingnuts) plays utterly into the 'black helicopters, black sites, and brainwashing' paranoia of the group and it'll probably do more harm than good. You don't want to affirm some of their more crazy theories or even imply it's something on the table.
They are nuts, but even if we ignore the slippery slope arguments there's a ton of reasons deprogramming like this is a bad idea.
Hopefully at least one of them will realize that their theories about government oppression and popular support didn't hold up against the actual actions of the FBI and the general population, and revise their beliefs to something more sane.
Yeah I'm going to bet that's not really in the cards for any of them. They originally thought themselves oppressed and persecuted by the government. Now the government is actually prosecuting them. This is their prime time to double down on their "The government is out to get us" beliefs and rhetoric. I'd say that all of these people are likely lost for all time to thier crack pot beliefs, and if not forever it will at least be a long time before they snap to their senses.
Things like this happen all the time with wingnut groups, and it doesn't snap them back to their senses.
What happens is the less radical (but still radical!) members become disenfranchised and leave the movement. When this happens and the 'moderating' influences leave, the movement becomes even more radical and closes ranks. You'll also tend to get 'purity tests' to make sure people who remained in the movement are sufficiently radical, and the echo / bubble chamber effect becomes more pronounced.
Depending on the size / alignment of the moment, you'll either end up with a schism or the entire movement basically rallying around their chosen leader.
At that point, especially if you intertwine the white supremacist and hardcore evangelical movements that tend to go hand in hand with these militias, you've bascially got an apocalyptic militarized nationalistic cult.
Yay.
This is also one of the reasons the occupy movement self destructed. No leader made it easier for the crazies to assume control, causing the non crazies to lead.
The difference is that there was no purity test, because ironically, you saw a lot of right wing crazy making itself as left wing crazy.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
Hopefully at least one of them will realize that their theories about government oppression and popular support didn't hold up against the actual actions of the FBI and the general population, and revise their beliefs to something more sane.
Cliven Bundy is seeking a public defender, and he still isn't changing his tune. Cognitive dissonance is strong with this group.
You could try cult deprogramming techniques, but I'm not exactly sure how legal/illegal it is. I assume that it's illegal but they generally hope that the person decides not to press charges by the time their done. Anyone else have more knowledge on this?
Absent the kidnapping and false imprisonment, it's basically just a conversation. But add actual imprisonment (ie: government backing) and make this about a cult and that's definitely back in a no-good zone. The Wikipedia article on Deprogramming has a statement from the ACLU admonishing the practice in 1977 as a violation of religious freedom, and they're definitely not wrong.
But this isn't a religion it's a delusional world view. For atheists, like myself, that is about the smallest hair you could ever split; and for that reason, I'm not super comfortable giving the justice system an invitation to try. They would be wide open to lawsuits, and could very well lead to the Supremes doing just that.
NPR mentioned something the government has started called a "De-radicalization program" for people who have tried to go overseas to help ISIS. But they also said only two people have participated it in it so far, so I'm assuming it's a voluntary thing.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
I asked why the FBI only assassinated one, and why they chose LeVoy as opposed to Ammon Bundy or his brother. I was retweeted with an all caps warning that I was an FBI Agent clearly stirring up trouble from my Mother's basement.
I pointed out that I was in Ireland. I was blocked.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
I asked why the FBI only assassinated one, and why they chose LeVoy as opposed to Ammon Bundy or his brother. I was retweeted with an all caps warning that I was an FBI Agent clearly stirring up trouble from my Mother's basement.
I pointed out that I was in Ireland. I was blocked.
Yeeeeessssssss...all those FBI agents holed up in their mother's basements...the onion continues to have layers.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
I asked why the FBI only assassinated one, and why they chose LeVoy as opposed to Ammon Bundy or his brother. I was retweeted with an all caps warning that I was an FBI Agent clearly stirring up trouble from my Mother's basement.
I pointed out that I was in Ireland. I was blocked.
So! I got to see a bunch of tweets by people who really believe that LeVoy Jenkins was cruelly murdered. Here is what they say happened.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
I don't even
you'd think if the FBI actually wanted to kill the people in the car, they wouldn't have bothered for someone to jump out before opening fire on it once it had come to a stop
Who is this guy? Is he connected to Cliven in some way?
He's a Nevada Assemblyman, showed up on the last day of the occupation. Doesn't appear to have any direct connection to the militants (Unlike Michele Fiore)
This billboard was mentioned a couple of pages back. It looks really cool! Although if they ever put up another I really hope they use the tiny owl counter-protester photo.
Hopefully the militants left in time for the great horned owls to use the fire tower.
By the way, the Great Horned Owls are going to be looking for their nesting site at the lookout tower very soon! What do you suppose will happen when they find it occupied? Can you imagine what would happen if an owl flies into that tower window in the middle of a night and finds a dozing armed sniper inside? Have you ever been taloned by a Great Horned Owl? I have. Not a pleasant experience. I doubt an owl would attack unless it was defending its young or its partner. But I wonder if it might trigger an alarmed reaction throughout the compound? Yikes! Well, enough of this silliness.
Fffff, that's not even something they could've played off as being some sort of defensive barrier. That's something that only would've come into play when people came back to work and tried using their stuff again.
Posts
Cliven Bundy is seeking a public defender, and he still isn't changing his tune. Cognitive dissonance is strong with this group.
You could try cult deprogramming techniques, but I'm not exactly sure how legal/illegal it is. I assume that it's illegal but they generally hope that the person decides not to press charges by the time their done. Anyone else have more knowledge on this?
Things like this happen all the time with wingnut groups, and it doesn't snap them back to their senses.
What happens is the less radical (but still radical!) members become disenfranchised and leave the movement. When this happens and the 'moderating' influences leave, the movement becomes even more radical and closes ranks. You'll also tend to get 'purity tests' to make sure people who remained in the movement are sufficiently radical, and the echo / bubble chamber effect becomes more pronounced.
Depending on the size / alignment of the moment, you'll either end up with a schism or the entire movement basically rallying around their chosen leader.
At that point, especially if you intertwine the white supremacist and hardcore evangelical movements that tend to go hand in hand with these militias, you've bascially got an apocalyptic militarized nationalistic cult.
Yay.
It's not one organization. It a thousand 5-80 man operations of varying degrees of different political activism topics, militancy, and organization.
Heck, the Free Military of the Conch Republic is technically a militia group and their primary form of protest is drinking heavily on the weekends and occasionally throwing a boat parade.
Absent the kidnapping and false imprisonment, it's basically just a conversation. But add actual imprisonment (ie: government backing) and make this about a cult and that's definitely back in a no-good zone. The Wikipedia article on Deprogramming has a statement from the ACLU admonishing the practice in 1977 as a violation of religious freedom, and they're definitely not wrong.
But this isn't a religion it's a delusional world view. For atheists, like myself, that is about the smallest hair you could ever split; and for that reason, I'm not super comfortable giving the justice system an invitation to try. They would be wide open to lawsuits, and could very well lead to the Supremes doing just that.
Yeah, barring an actual psychiatric hold by a real doctor I'm going to shy away from anything that even verges on some sort of deprogramming.
Add to that the fact that even quasi-governmental deprogramming (like, mandatory AA except for wingnuts) plays utterly into the 'black helicopters, black sites, and brainwashing' paranoia of the group and it'll probably do more harm than good. You don't want to affirm some of their more crazy theories or even imply it's something on the table.
They are nuts, but even if we ignore the slippery slope arguments there's a ton of reasons deprogramming like this is a bad idea.
This is also one of the reasons the occupy movement self destructed. No leader made it easier for the crazies to assume control, causing the non crazies to lead.
The difference is that there was no purity test, because ironically, you saw a lot of right wing crazy making itself as left wing crazy.
The cars are driving along when they hit a roadblock.
The FBI fire on LeVoy's car without warning.
LeVoy heroically attempts to save his passengers by driving away from the evil shooty FBI.
LeVoy hits another roadblock and swerves to avoid an FBI officer.
LeVoy heroically jumps out of the car with his hands up to draw fire away from his passengers.
Evil shooty FBI close in. LeVoy points at the car, telling them innocent, unarmed people are inside.
One officer shoots LeVoy. LeVoy grabs his side, where he has been shot. The second officer shoots him.
LeVoy is left wounded in the snow to die.
I have come across a dozen people who are really, truly convinced that this is what is shown happening in the FBI video. It's not quite up there with the "Sandy Hook never happened" levels of crazy, but it's close.
<rubs temples> Surely if the FBI was that bloodthirsty, wouldn't there have been more fatalities than just one? Oh I'm sure there's a convoluted explanation for that too.
NPR mentioned something the government has started called a "De-radicalization program" for people who have tried to go overseas to help ISIS. But they also said only two people have participated it in it so far, so I'm assuming it's a voluntary thing.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Assassination, obvs
It's turtles all the way down.
I asked why the FBI only assassinated one, and why they chose LeVoy as opposed to Ammon Bundy or his brother. I was retweeted with an all caps warning that I was an FBI Agent clearly stirring up trouble from my Mother's basement.
I pointed out that I was in Ireland. I was blocked.
Yeeeeessssssss...all those FBI agents holed up in their mother's basements...the onion continues to have layers.
Desktop Hippie, FBI.
Who is this guy? Is he connected to Cliven in some way?
I don't even
you'd think if the FBI actually wanted to kill the people in the car, they wouldn't have bothered for someone to jump out before opening fire on it once it had come to a stop
He's a Nevada Assemblyman, showed up on the last day of the occupation. Doesn't appear to have any direct connection to the militants (Unlike Michele Fiore)
My Steam
This billboard was mentioned a couple of pages back. It looks really cool! Although if they ever put up another I really hope they use the tiny owl counter-protester photo.
- John Stuart Mill
Not that I've seen. The only photo from the airport seems to be this one, which shows Cliven just after he landed apparently.
Looks like they paid attention to his video feeds and are taking no chances.
Right now, you are contemplating the fact that he is not allowed to wear any underpants with that thing. You're welcome.
- John Stuart Mill
Blimey.
Steam | XBL
Is...is he wearing two American flag lapel pins?
Nope. It looks like it's just a white loop or bar...maybe holding a mic or something?
- John Stuart Mill
Apparently it's a garment with no strong seams or collar that's resistant to tearing so that no part can be used to make a noose.
Some more really nasty charges to add to the pile.