showing work in basic arithmetic is just kind of tedious

THE POINT IS NOT THE FUCKING ANSWER

THE POINT IS THE FUCKING PROCESS

Why can't we just emphasize teaching the process whenever order of operations are introduced? Since that is, I think, the earliest point where "the process" matters.

Now that I think about, actually they probably would. It's not like geneva conventions have ever really applied to US military leaders anyway

It has.

We don't classify terrorists as enemy combatants of war to use a loophole and stick em in Guantamo. I shit you not.

The Obama DoJ officially renounced the Bush-era "enemy combatant" definition in 2009. We just still have them in Guantanamo because no other prison will accept them and pretty much every other part of the government stonewalled the fuck out of it

still, that sort of thing is why I find it romantic to imagine the CIA being the cavalry saving American democracy from a police state in our hour of direst need

Numbers Stations around the world abruptly switching their regular broadcasts to 1-7-7-6--1-7-7-6 on repeat, calling upon spooks across the world to rally their cocaine-funded militias and enplane for the Homeland in unmarked C-130s

Black Helicopters swarming the George Bush Center for Intelligence as President Trump sends in the FEMA extermination squads to crush the rebellion, supported by DHS Coast Guard cutters

a lone MQ-9 swoops in and double-taps the White House, somewhere in Nevada, a flightsuited USAF 1LT seconded to SAD gives the thumbs up via skype while playing Danger Zone on his iphone

I call it Spy War: It's Blowback Time

It doesn't matter what the Obama DoJ did, because Bush declared them as non enemy combatants to get them into that fucking situation.

well yeah, I only mention it because you used the present tense

For some reason, I cannot shake that fucking number.

It's 56. I cannot shake that 7 times 8 is 56. IT IS SEARED INTO MY SKULL

Munkus i think i need you to teach me how to common core.

I was in AP math early one, stuff happened i flunked the class, but so did everyone else.

I ended up taking a algebra classs and afterwards my teacher wanted to know why i wasnt in AP, to which i had to give him the back ground.

He recommended me to take pre-calculus, but my student adviser looked at my academic history and said nope, you are taking math and models so you can pass high school. i insisted i wanted to take pre-cal, she still shot me down.

So when i see the common core vid i was LOST, i thought it looked stupid.

But ... its not? If it isnt i need someone to explain to me, show me why its not. I dont want to be ignorant of why it is a good thing.

That video looked like a dumb way to teach basic subtraction but... whatever.

I don't think math up to at least introductory calculus is hard at all. (And personally I think you have to go into some pretty deep calculus holes before math progresses from "this is just kind of tedious" to actually being really difficult to understand conceptually.) It requires basic memorization skills, a tiny sprinkling of logic, and a willingness to not cut corners. But I also think so many people are really, really terrible at teaching math. (And maybe that isn't their fault.)

No offense, but that makes you pretty useless in the discussion of how to teach math. I say this from experience because I also find math very very easy. But many many people do not. These concepts don't come naturally to them and you can't just show them a few patterns until it "clicks". We aren't the kind of people that need to be taught math because on some level we've always kind of understood it. And that's the barrier between people who get math and people who don't. There's a fundamental way of thinking that isn't shared between the two groups, like two people who learned completely different meanings for the same word and don't realize the other meaning trying to have a conversation.

And this kind of circles around to your last point about people being bad at teaching math. Because most of the people who become math teachers are people who are good at math. Which means most of them also don't understand what it's like to not have an intuitive grasp at mathematical concepts. And that's fair. It is really hard to teach fundamental concepts to someone when they don't share your affinity for it.

+2

Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular

showing work in basic arithmetic is just kind of tedious

THE POINT IS NOT THE FUCKING ANSWER

THE POINT IS THE FUCKING PROCESS

no I get it munkus you ain't gotta raise your voice

what I'm saying is that the process for basic arithmetic is typically so axiomatic that having to write it out 50 times for 50 problems when they're basically all the same problem was super tedious

It certainly helps a lot more in real life situations when you have to understand how the shit works instead of just what the answer is.

Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.

showing work in basic arithmetic is just kind of tedious

never took any issue with having to show work for algebra or calculus

Once you start dealing with advanced math it's important to show work so you can easily pick out the exact step where someone goes wrong and help them fix it.

I'm not sure what besides repetition (or methods I was never taught because old math was basically memorization) can help a kid figure out basic math.

Then again for me math always just clicked so I was out ahead of my grade level up until the pre AP / AP courses hit in jr high and high school.

I mean if a kid did a harder problem like 43 - 15 would they not show as much understanding writing it out as 43 - 13 - 2 = 28 as they would 5 + 10 + 10 + 3 = 28 + 15 = 43

That video looked like a dumb way to teach basic subtraction but... whatever.

I don't think math up to at least introductory calculus is hard at all. (And personally I think you have to go into some pretty deep calculus holes before math progresses from "this is just kind of tedious" to actually being really difficult to understand conceptually.) It requires basic memorization skills, a tiny sprinkling of logic, and a willingness to not cut corners. But I also think so many people are really, really terrible at teaching math. (And maybe that isn't their fault.)

No offense, but that makes you pretty useless in the discussion of how to teach math.

It's a pretty good way of teaching, you show them the hard way that explains how it works first and then you show them the easier way. They (hopefully) understand how it works and they appreciate the simpler way more. I know that when I was in high school, we were often taught the simpler way first but it was only when we were taught the more complicated way that explained why the simpler way worked that I actually understood what I was doing. Anecdotal but that's my experience.

Gvzbgul on

+1

Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular

Now that I think about, actually they probably would. It's not like geneva conventions have ever really applied to US military leaders anyway

It has.

We don't classify terrorists as enemy combatants of war to use a loophole and stick em in Guantamo. I shit you not.

The Obama DoJ officially renounced the Bush-era "enemy combatant" definition in 2009. We just still have them in Guantanamo because no other prison will accept them and pretty much every other part of the government stonewalled the fuck out of it

still, that sort of thing is why I find it romantic to imagine the CIA being the cavalry saving American democracy from a police state in our hour of direst need

Numbers Stations around the world abruptly switching their regular broadcasts to 1-7-7-6--1-7-7-6 on repeat, calling upon spooks across the world to rally their cocaine-funded militias and enplane for the Homeland in unmarked C-130s

Black Helicopters swarming the George Bush Center for Intelligence as President Trump sends in the FEMA extermination squads to crush the rebellion, supported by DHS Coast Guard cutters

a lone MQ-9 swoops in and double-taps the White House, somewhere in Nevada, a flightsuited USAF 1LT seconded to SAD gives the thumbs up via skype while playing Danger Zone on his iphone

I call it Spy War: It's Blowback Time

It doesn't matter what the Obama DoJ did, because Bush declared them as non enemy combatants to get them into that fucking situation.

well yeah, I only mention it because you used the present tense

Oh. Fair point and conceded.

Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.

0

Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular

For some reason, I cannot shake that fucking number.

It's 56. I cannot shake that 7 times 8 is 56. IT IS SEARED INTO MY SKULL

Munkus i think i need you to teach me how to common core.

I was in AP math early one, stuff happened i flunked the class, but so did everyone else.

I ended up taking a algebra classs and afterwards my teacher wanted to know why i wasnt in AP, to which i had to give him the back ground.

He recommended me to take pre-calculus, but my student adviser looked at my academic history and said nope, you are taking math and models so you can pass high school. i insisted i wanted to take pre-cal, she still shot me down.

So when i see the common core vid i was LOST, i thought it looked stupid.

But ... its not? If it isnt i need someone to explain to me, show me why its not. I dont want to be ignorant of why it is a good thing.

AP math isn't a thing. AP Calculus?

Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.

showing work in basic arithmetic is just kind of tedious

never took any issue with having to show work for algebra or calculus

Showing the work is mostly necessary because the teacher needs to verify that you learned the process (and for people who struggle with the process, the rote helps things sink in, in theory at least). But yeah, if you do know the process it becomes tedious very quickly and the best teachers are the ones who recognize when a student "gets it" and cuts them some slack. My favorite math teacher let me take shortcuts with homework all the time because 1) I was clever enough to do the first few problems "properly" to demonstrate where the shortcut was coming in and 2) he knew that I had to employ the concepts we were learning in order to create the shortcuts in the first place and he felt that that sort of applied thinking deserved recognition.

That video looked like a dumb way to teach basic subtraction but... whatever.

I don't think math up to at least introductory calculus is hard at all. (And personally I think you have to go into some pretty deep calculus holes before math progresses from "this is just kind of tedious" to actually being really difficult to understand conceptually.) It requires basic memorization skills, a tiny sprinkling of logic, and a willingness to not cut corners. But I also think so many people are really, really terrible at teaching math. (And maybe that isn't their fault.)

No offense, but that makes you pretty useless in the discussion of how to teach math.

Yeah I figured this might be the case.

I always got super frustrated when my classmates asked for help with math homework. Because I'd try to walk them through my process and they'd either just want the answers with none of the underlying work, or they'd completely blank out then ask "how'd you do that?" and I'd have no idea how to explain it to them. It's really frustrating.

0

PwnanObrienHe's right, life sucks.Registered Userregular

Yeah, halfway through that video I didn't understand what she was getting at but by the end I could see the process and how it would actually be better at teaching children the process behind basic mathematics.

Like, even with her trying to hatefuck the equation with all the stern sarcasm of a clips4sale video I still fully understand why this is a better process than the parlor tricks we're talking about in here. I learned my 9s by adding the numbers in the sum.

1 X 9=9=9

2 X 9=18
1+8=9

3 X 9 = 27
2+7=9

etc.

...and that's probably a bad way to learn things because it has almost nothing to do with knowing how multiplication works and it falls apart after you get to 10.

I'd say teach addition and subtraction with a number line with small tick marks for ones and big tick marks for tens

43-13? Count back 3 small ticks and 1 big tick

Get you used to the concept of 1 dimensional coordinates so that when you have to learn science and algebra and statistics later on in life 2 dimensional coordinates are easy

god I'm fucking remembering when they introduced multiplication and we had to fucking write out 12x12 as 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 and then there's 29 more problems like that on the sheet

My dad taught me algebra at home by imagining that the equation was on an old timey scale like the kind lady justice has, with the left side in one dish and the right side in the other, and no matter what you have to keep the scale balanced

showing work in basic arithmetic is just kind of tedious

never took any issue with having to show work for algebra or calculus

Showing the work is mostly necessary because the teacher needs to verify that you learned the process (and for people who struggle with the process, the rote helps things sink in, in theory at least). But yeah, if you do know the process it becomes tedious very quickly and the best teachers are the ones who recognize when a student "gets it" and cuts them some slack. My favorite math teacher let me take shortcuts with homework all the time because 1) I was clever enough to do the first few problems "properly" to demonstrate where the shortcut was coming in and 2) he knew that I had to employ the concepts we were learning in order to create the shortcuts in the first place and he felt that that sort of applied thinking deserved recognition.

That video looked like a dumb way to teach basic subtraction but... whatever.

I don't think math up to at least introductory calculus is hard at all. (And personally I think you have to go into some pretty deep calculus holes before math progresses from "this is just kind of tedious" to actually being really difficult to understand conceptually.) It requires basic memorization skills, a tiny sprinkling of logic, and a willingness to not cut corners. But I also think so many people are really, really terrible at teaching math. (And maybe that isn't their fault.)

No offense, but that makes you pretty useless in the discussion of how to teach math.

Yeah I figured this might be the case.

This sounds to me a lot like the problem is that they're trying to take something as complex as "do you understand this process" and shoehorn it into an educational system that still has the backbone of "you will know this material at this age, no more and no less". If kids could move around based on understanding instead of age, it might go more smoothly.

I always got super frustrated when my classmates asked for help with math homework. Because I'd try to walk them through my process and they'd either just want the answers with none of the underlying work, or they'd completely blank out then ask "how'd you do that?" and I'd have no idea how to explain it to them. It's really frustrating.

Several of the best teachers I ever had said that unless you can teach a concept to someone else, then no, you don't actually understand it. In my experience, the most effective way that I really learned a subject was by having to really work through it to explain it to classmates who didn't get it.

My dad taught me algebra at home by imagining that the equation was on an old timey scale like the kind lady justice has, with the left side in one dish and the right side in the other, and no matter what you have to keep the scale balanced

I am positive that I played an educational PC game that used that exact same concept.

The biggest jump for me in arithmetic was learning how to multiply two numbers with more than one digit each

And even when I got through the mechanics of it it was only years later that I realized that like, you solve 27 x 42 by breaking it out into (27 x 2) + 10(27 x 4)

My dad taught me algebra at home by imagining that the equation was on an old timey scale like the kind lady justice has, with the left side in one dish and the right side in the other, and no matter what you have to keep the scale balanced

I am positive that I played an educational PC game that used that exact same concept.

Speed's father actually is an edutainment game

Some people are raised by wolves, and some are raised by number munchers

showing work in basic arithmetic is just kind of tedious

never took any issue with having to show work for algebra or calculus

Showing the work is mostly necessary because the teacher needs to verify that you learned the process (and for people who struggle with the process, the rote helps things sink in, in theory at least). But yeah, if you do know the process it becomes tedious very quickly and the best teachers are the ones who recognize when a student "gets it" and cuts them some slack. My favorite math teacher let me take shortcuts with homework all the time because 1) I was clever enough to do the first few problems "properly" to demonstrate where the shortcut was coming in and 2) he knew that I had to employ the concepts we were learning in order to create the shortcuts in the first place and he felt that that sort of applied thinking deserved recognition.

That video looked like a dumb way to teach basic subtraction but... whatever.

I don't think math up to at least introductory calculus is hard at all. (And personally I think you have to go into some pretty deep calculus holes before math progresses from "this is just kind of tedious" to actually being really difficult to understand conceptually.) It requires basic memorization skills, a tiny sprinkling of logic, and a willingness to not cut corners. But I also think so many people are really, really terrible at teaching math. (And maybe that isn't their fault.)

No offense, but that makes you pretty useless in the discussion of how to teach math.

Yeah I figured this might be the case.

This sounds to me a lot like the problem is that they're trying to take something as complex as "do you understand this process" and shoehorn it into an educational system that still has the backbone of "you will know this material at this age, no more and no less". If kids could move around based on understanding instead of age, it might go more smoothly.

I always got super frustrated when my classmates asked for help with math homework. Because I'd try to walk them through my process and they'd either just want the answers with none of the underlying work, or they'd completely blank out then ask "how'd you do that?" and I'd have no idea how to explain it to them. It's really frustrating.

Several of the best teachers I ever had said that unless you can teach a concept to someone else, then no, you don't actually understand it. In my experience, the most effective way that I really learned a subject was by having to really work through it to explain it to classmates who didn't get it.

Yep. Nowadays my favorite/most effective way to finalize training on something is to write some customer-level documentation for it. Having to distill the information I gained into a format that someone with no experience will be able to follow is really good at galvanizing the information in my head.

I've got a math brain so both methods the lady presented make sense and are ways I do mental in my head. I'd never write it down like that because I am an adult and that seems tedious, but it seems like it could be a good way to get kids thinking about numbers and set a foundation for how to play around with numbers

Common core is part of our STEM push in that it is fairly designed to help us turn out more coders and people who really grok how math can be used. My programming prof put it best, "There are now two kinds of math problem in the world; The trivial, and those you should just use a computer for" We live in a society where increasingly everyone has a computer in their pocket, we need to get kids away from "plug and chug" math that gets answers and over to "this is how these logic systems work, how they interact, and what I can do with them going forward" as opposed to the way I was taught, which made me into a shitty computer. You put numbers in, I can spit answers out, but who cares?
Common Core is about promoting understanding rather than rote learning.
Common Core has also seemingly been gutted funding and support wise and left to flail as an example of change being a failure. I really think CC is a fantastic idea and honestly quite well designed, but the job of the roll out was going to be rough no matter what, telling a teacher of 20+ years "we need you to totally upend what you have been doing and all the tests have changed." is hard for them. It is natural and normal for people who are successful in a system to want that system to stay the same.

I'll grant not everyone will use the higher-level things, but that has always been true, and is true for essentially every subject past basic reading/writing proficiency. It still betters society to have educated, thoughtful people.

you know what it's pretty fucking incredible that our brain's conception of language is flexible enough to even allow for fluent reading and writing, something that would not have developed in the wild

For some reason, I cannot shake that fucking number.

It's 56. I cannot shake that 7 times 8 is 56. IT IS SEARED INTO MY SKULL

Munkus i think i need you to teach me how to common core.

I was in AP math early one, stuff happened i flunked the class, but so did everyone else.

I ended up taking a algebra classs and afterwards my teacher wanted to know why i wasnt in AP, to which i had to give him the back ground.

He recommended me to take pre-calculus, but my student adviser looked at my academic history and said nope, you are taking math and models so you can pass high school. i insisted i wanted to take pre-cal, she still shot me down.

So when i see the common core vid i was LOST, i thought it looked stupid.

But ... its not? If it isnt i need someone to explain to me, show me why its not. I dont want to be ignorant of why it is a good thing.

AP math isn't a thing. AP Calculus?

Just chatted with my friend on hangouts, we are pretty sure it was honors geometry, he failed it as did i and the rest of the class.

Might have had something to do with this whole math concept thing.

So yea... I suddenly feel mathematically inadequite

## Posts

well yeah, I only mention it because you used the present tense

Munkus i think i need you to teach me how to common core.

I was in AP math early one, stuff happened i flunked the class, but so did everyone else.

I ended up taking a algebra classs and afterwards my teacher wanted to know why i wasnt in AP, to which i had to give him the back ground.

He recommended me to take pre-calculus, but my student adviser looked at my academic history and said nope, you are taking math and models so you can pass high school. i insisted i wanted to take pre-cal, she still shot me down.

So when i see the common core vid i was

LOST, i thought it looked stupid.But ... its not? If it isnt i need someone to explain to me, show me why its not. I dont want to be ignorant of why it is a good thing.

No offense, but that makes you pretty useless in the discussion of how to teach math. I say this from experience because I also find math very very easy. But many many people do not. These concepts don't come naturally to them and you can't just show them a few patterns until it "clicks". We aren't the kind of people that need to be taught math because on some level we've always kind of understood it. And that's the barrier between people who get math and people who don't. There's a fundamental way of thinking that isn't shared between the two groups, like two people who learned completely different meanings for the same word and don't realize the other meaning trying to have a conversation.

And this kind of circles around to your last point about people being bad at teaching math. Because most of the people who become math teachers are people who are good at math. Which means most of them also don't understand what it's like to

nothave an intuitive grasp at mathematical concepts. And that's fair. It is really hard to teach fundamental concepts to someone when they don't share your affinity for it.It certainly helps a lot more in real life situations when you have to understand how the shit works instead of just what the answer is.

Once you start dealing with advanced math it's important to show work so you can easily pick out the exact step where someone goes wrong and help them fix it.

I'm not sure what besides repetition (or methods I was never taught because old math was basically memorization) can help a kid figure out basic math.

Then again for me math always just clicked so I was out ahead of my grade level up until the pre AP / AP courses hit in jr high and high school.

rhylithon-TalonPSN: Robo_Wizard1

GvzbgulonOh. Fair point and conceded.

AP math isn't a thing. AP Calculus?

GundionShowing the work is mostly necessary because the teacher needs to verify that you learned the process (and for people who struggle with the process, the rote helps things sink in, in theory at least). But yeah, if you

doknow the process it becomes tedious very quickly and the best teachers are the ones who recognize when a student "gets it" and cuts them some slack. My favorite math teacher let me take shortcuts with homework all the time because 1) I was clever enough to do the first few problems "properly" to demonstrate where the shortcut was coming in and 2) he knew that I had to employ the concepts we were learning in order to create the shortcuts in the first place and he felt that that sort of applied thinking deserved recognition.I always got super frustrated when my classmates asked for help with math homework. Because I'd try to walk them through my process and they'd either just want the answers with none of the underlying work, or they'd completely blank out then ask "how'd you do that?" and I'd have no idea how to explain it to them. It's really frustrating.

Like, even with her trying to hatefuck the equation with all the stern sarcasm of a clips4sale video I still fully understand why this is a better process than the parlor tricks we're talking about in here. I learned my 9s by adding the numbers in the sum.

1 X 9=9=9

2 X 9=18

1+8=9

3 X 9 = 27

2+7=9

etc.

...and that's probably a bad way to learn things because it has almost nothing to do with knowing how multiplication works and it falls apart after you get to 10.

43-13? Count back 3 small ticks and 1 big tick

Get you used to the concept of 1 dimensional coordinates so that when you have to learn science and algebra and statistics later on in life 2 dimensional coordinates are easy

http://www.audioentropy.com/

-Talonhttp://www.audioentropy.com/

Several of the best teachers I ever had said that unless you can teach a concept to someone else, then no, you don't actually understand it. In my experience, the most effective way that I really learned a subject was by having to really work through it to explain it to classmates who didn't get it.

NarbusonWhen they gave you a little diagram and you knew what some of the angles were and needed to use the theorems to work out the other ones

like a little puzzle! Those were cool

I am

positivethat I played an educational PC game that used that exact same concept.Noooooooooooooope

Yeah, seriously

And while we're at it, all of that history they are learning is probably on Wikipedia

And really, does English teach you anything you wouldn't learn by picking up a style manual?

And even when I got through the mechanics of it it was only years later that I realized that like, you solve 27 x 42 by breaking it out into (27 x 2) + 10(27 x 4)

http://www.audioentropy.com/

Speed's father actually is an edutainment game

Some people are raised by wolves, and some are raised by number munchers

Yep. Nowadays my favorite/most effective way to finalize training on something is to write some customer-level documentation for it. Having to distill the information I gained into a format that someone with no experience will be able to follow is really good at galvanizing the information in my head.

Something that I find really annoying is that trigonometry has like, a bajillion practical applications

But because it's so tied up in irrational numbers it's real hard to get the hang of

http://www.audioentropy.com/

adultand that seems tedious, but it seems like it could be a good way to get kids thinking about numbers and set a foundation for how to play around with numbersPSN: Robo_Wizard1

Common Core is about promoting understanding rather than rote learning.

Common Core has also seemingly been gutted funding and support wise and left to flail as an example of change being a failure. I really think CC is a fantastic idea and honestly quite well designed, but the job of the roll out was going to be rough no matter what, telling a teacher of 20+ years "we need you to totally upend what you have been doing and all the tests have changed." is hard for them. It is natural and normal for people who are successful in a system to want that system to stay the same.

I'll grant not everyone will use the higher-level things, but that has always been true, and is true for essentially every subject past basic reading/writing proficiency. It still betters society to have educated, thoughtful people.

having a human to mentor your writing is useful

that is, if your teacher is actually approachable and helpful

-Talonreal talk I have a history degree and I learned most of my actual history from wikipedia

Just chatted with my friend on hangouts, we are pretty sure it was honors geometry, he failed it as did i and the rest of the class.

Might have had something to do with this whole math concept thing.

So yea... I suddenly feel mathematically inadequite