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[Fire Emblem] Fates - The best FE character is now recruitable... for a price

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    ph blakeph blake Registered User regular
    Chapter 12 conquest is probably my favorite map so far.
    It felt suitably epic, like everything started smoothly and in control before devolving into complete chaos, and the map gimmick with the pots was pretty fun. I escaped on the last possible turn, with Effie barely holding off an army of ninja's in a choke point while Niles and my Lazlow/Beruka team distracted Ryoma's guards. Wiped out most of the enemies except for the last wave of reinforcements, but things were getting too hairy with only one healer for me to risk taking Ryoma head on.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    I had lots of time to spare, HHM was good for getting you to move through maps at a quick pace

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I think the most dangerous thing that Awakening did, gameplay-wise, was create this expectation in some newer people that Hard is where they should leap into these games. Awakening had all these systems that would let your characters be super powerful, and the enemy couldn't do it, and the balance was in many ways quite bad so if you had the wherewithal to utilize the systems then you had to bump it up to Hard to get some real resistance out of it (and later in the game even that didn't help)

    Fates is not really like that. Conquest, in particular, is not like that.

    Even in Birthright, enemies are smarter than in Awakening and (on Hard) equal to your troops in strength, so you have to use superior positioning and tactics to beat them. You instantly, instantly have to be able to know how Fire Emblem works better than Awakening ever demanded outside of Lunatic.

    And Conquest does not fuck around about this stuff. Conquest on Normal is a good challenge, maybe a bit harder than Awakening on Hard (especially in their respective late game stages where the gap is very wide indeed). You gotta know the systems to engage and get past it! It is satisfying to beat Conquest on Normal.

    Conquest on Hard will eat you alive. It is designed for series veterans on the level of our own Jars, people who play through Radiant Dawn on Hard and go "Yeah that was all right I guess, what next," and are not wholly satisfied. Enemies get new skill combinations and cool weapons you wish you had and are smart and tough and will focus very hard on ripping your team to shreds. Going from Awakening Hard to Conquest Hard is a pretty steep change, and I think it's hitting a lot of people in the face like a club

    I think you are vastly overstating how hard conquest is on hard

    I played awakening on hard and feel right at home on conquest hard

    Granted I bumped to casual because hard becomes an annoying time sink

    But "difficult" and "obnoxious" ain't the same thing

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I think the most dangerous thing that Awakening did, gameplay-wise, was create this expectation in some newer people that Hard is where they should leap into these games. Awakening had all these systems that would let your characters be super powerful, and the enemy couldn't do it, and the balance was in many ways quite bad so if you had the wherewithal to utilize the systems then you had to bump it up to Hard to get some real resistance out of it (and later in the game even that didn't help)

    Fates is not really like that. Conquest, in particular, is not like that.

    Even in Birthright, enemies are smarter than in Awakening and (on Hard) equal to your troops in strength, so you have to use superior positioning and tactics to beat them. You instantly, instantly have to be able to know how Fire Emblem works better than Awakening ever demanded outside of Lunatic.

    And Conquest does not fuck around about this stuff. Conquest on Normal is a good challenge, maybe a bit harder than Awakening on Hard (especially in their respective late game stages where the gap is very wide indeed). You gotta know the systems to engage and get past it! It is satisfying to beat Conquest on Normal.

    Conquest on Hard will eat you alive. It is designed for series veterans on the level of our own Jars, people who play through Radiant Dawn on Hard and go "Yeah that was all right I guess, what next," and are not wholly satisfied. Enemies get new skill combinations and cool weapons you wish you had and are smart and tough and will focus very hard on ripping your team to shreds. Going from Awakening Hard to Conquest Hard is a pretty steep change, and I think it's hitting a lot of people in the face like a club

    I think you are vastly overstating how hard conquest is on hard

    I played awakening on hard and feel right at home on conquest hard

    Granted I bumped to casual because hard becomes an annoying time sink

    But "difficult" and "obnoxious" ain't the same thing

    In fairness

    What you see as an obnoxious failure of the game would be, for me, a tactical failure on my own part, and a function of the game's fair difficulty

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    Heh...I would say that Conquest is more difficult than Awakening.

    Mainly cause in Awakening...having one paired up super unit blow through the map was a viable strategy.

    It can be done in Conquest but requires way more maneuvering to the point that it isn't really that worth it.

    Then there was the fact you could get like 50+% activation rates on some skills.

    And galeforce...

    Dragkonias on
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    Mr KhanMr Khan Not Everyone WAHHHRegistered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I think the most dangerous thing that Awakening did, gameplay-wise, was create this expectation in some newer people that Hard is where they should leap into these games. Awakening had all these systems that would let your characters be super powerful, and the enemy couldn't do it, and the balance was in many ways quite bad so if you had the wherewithal to utilize the systems then you had to bump it up to Hard to get some real resistance out of it (and later in the game even that didn't help)

    Fates is not really like that. Conquest, in particular, is not like that.

    Even in Birthright, enemies are smarter than in Awakening and (on Hard) equal to your troops in strength, so you have to use superior positioning and tactics to beat them. You instantly, instantly have to be able to know how Fire Emblem works better than Awakening ever demanded outside of Lunatic.

    And Conquest does not fuck around about this stuff. Conquest on Normal is a good challenge, maybe a bit harder than Awakening on Hard (especially in their respective late game stages where the gap is very wide indeed). You gotta know the systems to engage and get past it! It is satisfying to beat Conquest on Normal.

    Conquest on Hard will eat you alive. It is designed for series veterans on the level of our own Jars, people who play through Radiant Dawn on Hard and go "Yeah that was all right I guess, what next," and are not wholly satisfied. Enemies get new skill combinations and cool weapons you wish you had and are smart and tough and will focus very hard on ripping your team to shreds. Going from Awakening Hard to Conquest Hard is a pretty steep change, and I think it's hitting a lot of people in the face like a club

    I think you are vastly overstating how hard conquest is on hard

    I played awakening on hard and feel right at home on conquest hard

    Granted I bumped to casual because hard becomes an annoying time sink

    But "difficult" and "obnoxious" ain't the same thing

    In fairness

    What you see as an obnoxious failure of the game would be, for me, a tactical failure on my own part, and a function of the game's fair difficulty

    I'd agree with Speed Racer only in regard to crit rates. That shit is obnoxious and should really be reserved for, idk, bosses or other named enemy units or something.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    I don't hate crit rates but I understand why there is a degree of randomness to tactical games.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    awakening had no difficulty. you stuck your strongest dude up front and all the enemy units suicided on them.

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Because it was not difficult for you does not mean it had no difficulty.

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    edited March 2016
    It's less to do with failure and more what the penalty for failure is

    Most of the maps group the enemies in stages

    You have the dudes you have to deal with immediately, the dudes blocking the path forward, the dudes blocking the way to the boss, and the boss' entourage, and maybe more depending on the map size

    If I can flawlessly crush the first two of those groups but have a hard time with the third one and keep dying on it, it becomes a nuisance to have to spend a not inconsiderable amount of time redoing the first 5-10 perfect turns

    That's what makes it obnoxious

    I think I've made it pretty clear by this point that I really like difficult games but when the checkpointing is as abysmal as fire emblem hard mode is it's not worth my time

    That doesn't mean it's too hard for me that just means that it's asking too high of a price for failure

    If you could for instance save mid battle if none of your units are in attack range at the end of the turn, or jump backwards a few turns when a unit dies, I would've stuck it out on classic

    But the idea of "no you fucked up so please repeat the last ten minutes of your life" is somewhere between stupid and disrespectful of my time so I'm not gonna put up with it

    It's got nothing to do with the balance of the difficulty and everything to do with fire emblem not really having the proper meta game elements in play to make its difficulty actually make sense to people who don't want to bang on the same map for three days

    Speed Racer on
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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    I feel like engaging in this conversation would shift too quickly away from how the game is constructed and into the values we attach to that construction, so the last word on it is yours but I stand utterly by what I said before

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    ShenShen Registered User regular
    It's interesting that no one is playing Lunatic. That says a lot to me, because Awakening on Lunatic is literally beatable with two paired units. I'm very interested in seeing how viable the paired super unit strategy is in Fates.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Hmm...I mean. Isn't that the point of casual and Phoenix mode?

    Like from what I understand of Phoenix it sounds pretty impossible to lose.

    Also, the game has an extensive guide that constantly updates.

    Outside of a dedicated practice mode I'm not sure what more folks want.

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...I mean. Isn't that the point of casual and Phoenix mode?

    Like from what I understand of Phoenix it sounds pretty impossible to lose.

    Also, the game has an extensive guide that constantly updates.

    Outside of a dedicated practice mode I'm not sure what more folks want.

    Well yeah I'm playing hard casual

    The thing is though I'm not playing on casual because classic is too hard I'm playing on casual because there are a finite number of hours in the day

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Shen wrote: »
    It's interesting that no one is playing Lunatic. That says a lot to me, because Awakening on Lunatic is literally beatable with two paired units. I'm very interested in seeing how viable the paired super unit strategy is in Fates.

    Personally I've never played tactical games on the hardest difficulty. Mainly cause while I do like a challenge it isn't the only reason I play these games.

    Its kind of a mix of difficulty, customization options, leveling up, and squad formation.

    Hard is like the sweet spot for me.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    I feel like lunatic would take the difficulty a notch above where I really want to be. hard/classic has gotten a lot more manageable on the second playthrough even though I'm using a lot of weaker characters though, so we'll see.

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    I'm playing on Hard/Classic (at the moment, at least) for a number of reasons, mostly that I find it very satisfying

    Most of it comes down to: I really enjoy learning the mechanics, and if I lose someone then it means that I am not good enough at strategizing, either through carelessness or lack of awareness. I keep playing at this level because I enjoy being good enough that I only have to reset for failure reasons about once every two maps

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    ElderlycrawfishElderlycrawfish Registered User regular
    If there was some sort of reward/penalty for either the classic/casual style, I'd probably play on Classic to make sure I'm not losing out on something.

    But there isn't a difference, so there's no real incentive to playing classic anymore other than masochism.

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...I mean. Isn't that the point of casual and Phoenix mode?

    Like from what I understand of Phoenix it sounds pretty impossible to lose.

    Also, the game has an extensive guide that constantly updates.

    Outside of a dedicated practice mode I'm not sure what more folks want.

    Well yeah I'm playing hard casual

    The thing is though I'm not playing on casual because classic is too hard I'm playing on casual because there are a finite number of hours in the day

    I mean. I get that.

    What I'm saying is I don't see what's wrong with that.

    I guess this is just hard for me cause I never understood the point of impressing the hardcore bois in a single player game.

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    YukiraYukira Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    I have lost twice on Casual/Phoenix. Both times due to my own mistakes in not protecting a point properly.

    It mostly lets me use guys I like and see the story and supports.

    Yukira on
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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    I understand that some people believe differently but the idea that you Failed tactically' or anything of the sort when you lose to a 1% crit chance on the last enemy is gibberish to me

    More power to you if you believe that but its the thing that keeps me from ever playing classic on fire emblem, ill cop to deaths I deserve, but rolling a 1 on a 1d100 is not a tactical failing, its randomness.

    Edit: To be clear, I don't think this belief is wrong to hold or worse than mine

    I just absolutely don't understand it

    Chincymcchilla on
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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...I mean. Isn't that the point of casual and Phoenix mode?

    Like from what I understand of Phoenix it sounds pretty impossible to lose.

    Also, the game has an extensive guide that constantly updates.

    Outside of a dedicated practice mode I'm not sure what more folks want.

    Well yeah I'm playing hard casual

    The thing is though I'm not playing on casual because classic is too hard I'm playing on casual because there are a finite number of hours in the day

    I mean. I get that.

    What I'm saying is I don't see what's wrong with that.

    I guess this is just hard for me cause I never understood the point of impressing the hardcore bois in a single player game.

    Well I mean I don't think it's so much about impressing anybody

    At least in my case, it's not even that I like hard games, so to speak. I've played hard games that I would sooner poop on than try to engage with on their own terms.

    I like being skillful at games, though. Getting all S ranks on Revengeance's highest difficulty? That shit felt nice. Finishing Challenge 6 in Vanquish? Love it. Playing through Radiant Dawn on Hard and stomping it into the mud? I felt like I had emerged victorious over something, and expanded my ability to interact with those systems as much as possible

    Sometimes you play a game that feels so nice it can become a little hobby, and it just feels nice to be real good at those games

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    I think a lot of it comes down to

    I like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks

    Let's try this whoops nope I died okay reload let's try THIS nope still died but got a littler further so let's try it again and then do THIS

    as opposed to sitting and studying a situation

    And undoing up to 30 minutes of work on a loss makes that method completely untenable

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    I think a lot of it comes down to

    I like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks

    Let's try this whoops nope I died okay reload let's try THIS nope still died but got a littler further so let's try it again and then do THIS

    as opposed to sitting and studying a situation

    And undoing up to 30 minutes of work on a loss makes that method completely untenable

    I would also say that even with quick reset it takes FOREVER to get back into game, get my guys in the formation I want them in and actually start the map

    that cuts down my desire to redo things as well

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    I think a lot of it comes down to

    I like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks

    Let's try this whoops nope I died okay reload let's try THIS nope still died but got a littler further so let's try it again and then do THIS

    as opposed to sitting and studying a situation

    And undoing up to 30 minutes of work on a loss makes that method completely untenable

    I would also say that even with quick reset it takes FOREVER to get back into game, get my guys in the formation I want them in and actually start the map

    that cuts down my desire to redo things as well

    Tbf you can get them set up in formation before launching the battle and then save

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    I think a lot of it comes down to

    I like to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks

    Let's try this whoops nope I died okay reload let's try THIS nope still died but got a littler further so let's try it again and then do THIS

    as opposed to sitting and studying a situation

    And undoing up to 30 minutes of work on a loss makes that method completely untenable

    I would also say that even with quick reset it takes FOREVER to get back into game, get my guys in the formation I want them in and actually start the map

    that cuts down my desire to redo things as well

    Tbf you can get them set up in formation before launching the battle and then save

    but also tbf I forget to do that

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    In a way, Fire Emblem is sort of like chess or other competitive board games that take place on a grid. When you're familiar enough with the systems you get really good at parsing down the entire battlefield into manageable chunks and coming up, quickly, with tenable solutions for each piece and how they interrelate to each other.

    Like my thought process during the enemy turn might be something like

    "OK circular area and two guys moving in on my group from the south, out of range for next turn which lets me set up my tanks, guy coming in from the north has a Killer weapon so assume he does the crit, defensive pair-up and surround with supports at edge of kill range to reduce chance to hit and mitigate damage, boost to skill for the guy headed north on intercept course, crit rate down to 15%, defensive pair-up would gain 4 extra Def which takes crit damage from 24 to 12, acceptable damage levels achieved, units to the west etc."

    And so on

    It's a nice game to engage with in that way, though it can be exhausting in large doses

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    DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Dragkonias wrote: »
    Hmm...I mean. Isn't that the point of casual and Phoenix mode?

    Like from what I understand of Phoenix it sounds pretty impossible to lose.

    Also, the game has an extensive guide that constantly updates.

    Outside of a dedicated practice mode I'm not sure what more folks want.

    Well yeah I'm playing hard casual

    The thing is though I'm not playing on casual because classic is too hard I'm playing on casual because there are a finite number of hours in the day

    I mean. I get that.

    What I'm saying is I don't see what's wrong with that.

    I guess this is just hard for me cause I never understood the point of impressing the hardcore bois in a single player game.

    Well I mean I don't think it's so much about impressing anybody

    At least in my case, it's not even that I like hard games, so to speak. I've played hard games that I would sooner poop on than try to engage with on their own terms.

    I like being skillful at games, though. Getting all S ranks on Revengeance's highest difficulty? That shit felt nice. Finishing Challenge 6 in Vanquish? Love it. Playing through Radiant Dawn on Hard and stomping it into the mud? I felt like I had emerged victorious over something, and expanded my ability to interact with those systems as much as possible

    Sometimes you play a game that feels so nice it can become a little hobby, and it just feels nice to be real good at those games

    You don't get what I'm saying.

    I fully understand playing a game for the challenge and that being fun.

    What I don't understand is feeling bad about not doing that if it makes the game less fun for you.

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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited March 2016
    Chapter 8 Conquest Hard, I'm struggling to get to three doors. I wonder if Elise can freeze the dude that beelines for the second door...

    Conversely, I wonder if 10,000 gold is worth all the experience you get from the villages unleashing like seven troops

    Sterica on
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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    I did misunderstand, yeah

    For what it's worth I don't think anyone feels bad about their choices in this thread specifically (though perhaps a few are considering switching from Hard/Casual to Normal/Casual for how it simplifies some missions)
    Chapter 8 Conquest Hard, I'm struggling to get to three doors. I wonder if Elise can freeze the dude that beelines for the second door...

    She can! I did this on Normal

    Wyborn on
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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    I think I kinda really dislike all the stats shenanigans in fates

    And I would gladly remove teaming up completely if it meant enemy units couldn't do it

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    Speed RacerSpeed Racer Scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratch scritch scratchRegistered User regular
    IIRC if you use a mounted unit you can blast across the map to get the doors in the bottom left and middle left

    Including the house you start right next to you got all three

    I found that if you draw aggro around the ice lake they'll leave your scout dude alone

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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Pairing up is pretty awesome and adds a nice layer of depth. Enemies have to be able to do it because it was way the hell overpowered in Awakening.

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    CantideCantide Registered User regular
    Conquest beaten! Hard/Classic was extremely frustrating at times, but finally beating that last chapter made me remember why I love it. There were so many awesome cinematic moments in the last chapter that had extra weight thanks to the difficulty and the flavor that permadeath added.
    1) Keaton, my MVP for half the campaign, getting hit by the hexing staff (the 1/2 HP one), then dogpiled by half the map, surviving several attacks at 1 HP while killing more than one enemy with criticals, and finally crumpling on the very last attacker.

    2) His daughter Velouria dying a few turns later after a successful suicidal charge to take down the mage with that staff.

    3) Felicia, normally resigned to hiding behind Xander to give him his paladin bonus and only popping her head out to heal folks when the danger's gone, stepping forward to heal an injured Corrin in the middle of her duel with Takumi, knowing full well that she wouldn't survive the first enemy to reach her, but also that without that heal Corrin was doomed.

    4) Shura, underleveled and exposed after Shigure's death, placing himself in the path of the enemy to shield Ophelia, who ultimately landed the final blow on the boss.

    Sixteen people entered the endgame. Only five made it out.

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    KwoaruKwoaru Confident Smirk Flawless Golden PecsRegistered User regular
    Pairing up is pretty awesome and adds a nice layer of depth. Enemies have to be able to do it because it was way the hell overpowered in Awakening.

    Oh I know exactly why they gave enemies the ability to do it

    I don't like it though and would rather they made it balanced by not letting the player do it either

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    OrphaneOrphane rivers of red that run to seaRegistered User regular
    i wonder if you mega abuse skill buying and leveling

    if you can get 4 villages in chapter 8

    probably doesn't make a difference though

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    DaypigeonDaypigeon Registered User regular
    faceless being able to pair up bugs me a little

    you can't tell me these are soulless monsters i just saw that one take a bullet for his pal

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    WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    Cantide wrote: »
    Conquest beaten! Hard/Classic was extremely frustrating at times, but finally beating that last chapter made me remember why I love it. There were so many awesome cinematic moments in the last chapter that had extra weight thanks to the difficulty and the flavor that permadeath added.
    1) Keaton, my MVP for half the campaign, getting hit by the hexing staff (the 1/2 HP one), then dogpiled by half the map, surviving several attacks at 1 HP while killing more than one enemy with criticals, and finally crumpling on the very last attacker.

    2) His daughter Velouria dying a few turns later after a successful suicidal charge to take down the mage with that staff.

    3) Felicia, normally resigned to hiding behind Xander to give him his paladin bonus and only popping her head out to heal folks when the danger's gone, stepping forward to heal an injured Corrin in the middle of her duel with Takumi, knowing full well that she wouldn't survive the first enemy to reach her, but also that without that heal Corrin was doomed.

    4) Shura, underleveled and exposed after Shigure's death, placing himself in the path of the enemy to shield Ophelia, who ultimately landed the final blow on the boss.

    Sixteen people entered the endgame. Only five made it out.

    This is magnificent

    Wyborn on
    dN0T6ur.png
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    RadiusRadius Registered User regular
    Daypigeon wrote: »
    faceless being able to pair up bugs me a little

    you can't tell me these are soulless monsters i just saw that one take a bullet for his pal

    I'm a little sad you don't seem to get a Faceless unit

    Everyday we stray further from God's light
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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    here's an easy way not to get crit by the boss at the end of a chapter: don't attack the boss with anyone he can crit. works every time

This discussion has been closed.