There's one huge flaw in all the arguments based on the fact that the game has "been out for 4 days."
It's been out closer to 5 days at this point.
Now is actually the time to be careful about making sweeping changes, before you player base is really locked in. Too many wide pendulum swings of the balancing axe and you end up with a fragmented player base that seeds resentment that can echo for a lot longer than the problem exists.
I was being sarcastic, but I agree with your take on this. I do not agree with this change.
If the game is meaningless to you unless you're filling some kind of bar maybe the game is just meaningless to you*. I understand this is a controversial stance among a lot of RPG players but man this game is way too fun to get hung up on filling bars.
This is tons of fun, the gameplay is fast and deep. There hasn't really been this good a cover shooter before. The AI is great, the difficulty is great, the pvp is fun and nothing feels flat. You post and flank and flush and bunker dudes all over PvE and PvP, even the PvE gameplay is very dynamic with lots of pushes forward and falling back. Missions are essentially horde mode rooms but feel great because there's so much movement and the AI tries to exploit your squad all the time. I play missions and DZ with friends and there's tons of teamplay all the time, which is something shooters typically lack.
My only peeve so far is that during our big DZ evening we had way too few players to fight. Was probably just a shitty instance but man, I'm worth sooo much and you're risking sooo little when I'm in manhunt mode, come get me pubbies. We haven't been able to replicate our ridiculously epic 3vEveryone Last Stand in the beta yet.
*Edit: I mean, most games are dropped after playing 40 hours and considered well spent money but eh.
If the idea here is you progress until 30 and then just run around ganking each other, that the game pushes you toward an endgame where the only gameplay left is to gank each other with no progression, well yeah I'm not down for that.
Progression is one of the defining traits of what most people consider an "RPG". I don't really want to go down the "what is an RPG?" route here, but that's how I see it.
If the game is meaningless to you unless you're filling some kind of bar maybe the game is just meaningless to you*. I understand this is a controversial stance among a lot of RPG players but man this game is way too fun to get hung up on filling bars.
This is tons of fun, the gameplay is fast and deep. There hasn't really been this good a cover shooter before. The AI is great, the difficulty is great, the pvp is fun and nothing feels flat. You post and flank and flush and bunker dudes all over PvE and PvP, even the PvE gameplay is very dynamic with lots of pushes forward and falling back. Missions are essentially horde mode rooms but feel great because there's so much movement and the AI tries to exploit your squad all the time. I play missions and DZ with friends and there's tons of teamplay all the time, which is something shooters typically lack.
My only peeve so far is that during our big DZ evening we had way too few players to fight. Was probably just a shitty instance but man, I'm worth sooo much and you're risking sooo little when I'm in manhunt mode, come get me pubbies. We haven't been able to replicate our ridiculously epic 3vEveryone Last Stand in the beta yet.
*Edit: I mean, most games are dropped after playing 40 hours and considered money well spent but eh.
See, it's not about filling bars entirely. It's literally about what you just said. The players choice and progression. They built a seamless party and world system that is just super great. Filled this massive detailed world tons of story and character, it really shines.
If you bottleneck gameplay into dailies and such, the drive goes away for many people. Sure, it works for MMO's and all that but look at how much "fun" they are having. It's just a chore at a certain point. Giving flexibility in where to go without interfering with pacing of gear (which should not be as fast as it was before the hotfix) is exactly the kind of atmosphere in which those amazing experiences you described occur.
My love for those very experiences is what drives the passion I have for this game and the fear that comes with a lifetime of watching games like this fall flat on their face due to knee-jerk reactions to imbalance.
This hotfix was like seeing your ex after 10 years. You thought you left that shit all behind but it comes flooding back in seconds.
Edit: My apologies @Drez - am not the best at detecting sarcasm. XD
You know those annoying encounters where you have to pick up 2-3 suitcases and deliver them to a location? I found a neat trick to make them really easy. In those encounters, enemies only spawn at the beginning and each time you deliver a suitcase. So once you clear the initial wave of enemies, pick up each suitcase and drop them right next to the deliver location. You won't have any enemies to contend with while you do this. Then when all the suitcases are on the floor right next to the deliver location, you can deliver them all really quickly and only have to deal with a final wave of enemies.
Rikers hates him!
One weird trick that the Cleaners don't want you to know!
Entertainingly, I want the DZ to be rather peaceful vis a vis player combat. Ganking's not fun to me, but I like the challenge of the average NPC encounter in there. I like that in general, running past a player is a brief moment of tension, but they're as likely to watch your back as to shoot it. Rogues -should- seriously question whether it's a good idea to actually pull the trigger, and if they do, they should fear the retribution and bounty that comes with it.
That's how it should work, to me.
(granted, narratively I feel that retaking the dark zone should be the game's real endgame; bringing down the jammers, establishing uplinks, establishing control one step at a time. but hey. gotta give the silly geese their playground.)
Entertainingly, I want the DZ to be rather peaceful vis a vis player combat. Ganking's not fun to me, but I like the challenge of the average NPC encounter in there. I like that in general, running past a player is a brief moment of tension, but they're as likely to watch your back as to shoot it. Rogues -should- seriously question whether it's a good idea to actually pull the trigger, and if they do, they should fear the retribution and bounty that comes with it.
That's how it should work, to me.
(granted, narratively I feel that retaking the dark zone should be the game's real endgame; bringing down the jammers, establishing uplinks, establishing control one step at a time. but hey. gotta give the silly geese their playground.)
Yeah, I really hope when the patch previewed stuff about the dark zone they're planning to add more soft interactions and choices to it. Stuff like being able to help the JTF establish bases in the dz or tear them down if you're a rogue.
Wait, is the sawed off shotgun a low level dlc-only weapon?
Please tell me that's not the case.
I have a blue level 14 sawed off I bought.
And I think it's really important to try and enjoy the gameplay moments in themselves rather than staring yourself blind at increasing numbers. I can play a mission because I really enjoy playing a mission, not because I want to increase my level, but to each their own. I mean maybe you can't really expect engaging progression after 60 gameplay hours, it's gonna become prestige grinding eventually.
Man I love how every time I get bumrushed and killed as rogue level 5 I can hear people on open mic laughing or going "Yesss!". The whole thing is such a win-win, it's super tense to fight superior numbers as a rogue, and whoever manages to get me gets a big dopamine loot pinata.
I kinda agree though that the mechanic itself isn't really balanced as it is, there's no risk/reward reason to go rogue or grind DZ bucks or keys. I have a lot of unused keys but they're not really useful for me right now. It's a lot of fun though!
Edit: Unleash your id, stop identifying as rogue or not-rogue. Just screw someone over sometime, it'll feel great I promise. Find some dude who is blasting loud keyboard or dumb shit on open mic and shoot him. You'll have more fun playing both sides for sure!
Mostly just felt bad because of it, despite being rather grouchy at them over being screwed in the past.
I'm not you, you're not me.
I mean, did you have an epic fire fight or did you just sticky bomb a level 8 and walk away? You can't tell me an actual fight isn't engaging.
Edit: I mean please tell me you at least shoot down rogues and enjoy sweet sweet loot piles to taste some of that pvp. It's cool how rogue hunting mobs just form and cooperate.
Vic_Hazard on
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
So, Level 13 now and I'm thinking that Assault Rifles are just LMG's with much smaller magazines. Is there any reason to spend much time trying to find an ideal AR ?
So, Level 13 now and I'm thinking that Assault Rifles are just LMG's with much smaller magazines. Is there any reason to spend much time trying to find an ideal AR ?
I enjoy the high RPM ones, the best so far is the ACR I think. Gives you burst damage at medium range which the LMGs don't have.
So, Level 13 now and I'm thinking that Assault Rifles are just LMG's with much smaller magazines. Is there any reason to spend much time trying to find an ideal AR ?
Depends on if you prefer sustained fire or short controlled bursts.
Running Challenge mode gives you 30 PC any time you beat it, regardless of daily status. So that's a solution if you have the stomach for running the same mission over and over again.
It pretty much just shifts the grind outside of the DZ and into challenge mode, which seems strange.
I'm WAY ahead of the pom pom beanie curve collection now, too. Up to five!
Pics (and names) or it didn't happen
And please take that crying dude next to the workbench away to another corner of the base!
It's not fun converting green materials to blue while constantly hearing "Uh uh uh weep uhuh uh weep snifl uh uh uuuh"...
I'm WAY ahead of the pom pom beanie curve collection now, too. Up to five!
Pics (and names) or it didn't happen
And please take that crying dude next to the workbench away to another corner of the base!
It's not fun converting green materials to blue while constantly hearing "Uh uh uh weep uhuh uh weep snifl uh uh uuuh"...
Fun fact, he leaves once you build the counseling center.
It seems to me that one of the big issues with the this whole phoenix credit issue is that there's just not enough grades of loot. If you're decked out in blue and purples just by the time you reach 30, and then decked out fully in purples after a few hours in the DZ, that means that High End gear and farming Phoenix Credits is the only thing left.
Seems to me if drop rates of High Ends by DZ mobs was pretty rare, that would make actually playing and farming in the DZ something that is both useful and fun, and a good time sink. They could then introduce Super-Duper-High-End (rather than HE, now) gear for use with Phoenix Credits as the ultimate goal, but one that you get slowly from playing in the DZ.
But I agree, this gating through Dailies is a terrible design move. At the very least, Massive has shown that they do read the forums/Reddit, and listen. So we can only hope that they are in the process of making better balance changes, while this was merely a stopgap measure.
LMG is a great blind fire weapon. I've taken out packs of enemies even in the DZ by sitting behind cover blind firing an LMG as they get within mid range.
Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
It seems to me that one of the big issues with the this whole phoenix credit issue is that there's just not enough grades of loot. If you're decked out in blue and purples just by the time you reach 30, and then decked out fully in purples after a few hours in the DZ, that means that High End gear and farming Phoenix Credits is the only thing left.
Seems to me if drop rates of High Ends by DZ mobs was pretty rare, that would make actually playing and farming in the DZ something that is both useful and fun, and a good time sink. They could then introduce Super-Duper-High-End (rather than HE, now) gear for use with Phoenix Credits as the ultimate goal, but one that you get slowly from playing in the DZ.
But I agree, this gating through Dailies is a terrible design move. At the very least, Massive has shown that they do read the forums/Reddit, and listen. So we can only hope that they are in the process of making better balance changes, while this was merely a stopgap measure.
Yeah. Now that I know you can still earn 30 per Challenge run, I'm just confused about what they thought this fix would do.
Now instead of having options for getting Phoenix Credits spread out across missions, drops, the DZ, and Challenge Mode, you only have Challenge Mode. So they haven't really "fixed" the availability of Phoenix Credits. They've just made it so you have to grind the same mission over and over if you want them. I can still get a few hundred PC a day, I just have to do it by way of the most repetitive PVE grind possible.
Yesterday I was moving through all six areas of the DZ hunting named enemies and having to deal with the occasional Rogue pack. It was way more dynamic and interesting than running Lincoln Tunnel ten times in a row, and it probably gave me fewer Phoenix Credits/hour or whatever they're so worried about.
EDIT: Oh, and don't forget that Set Items are coming with Incursions. So there is one more tier to go.
Managed to extract my first set of items from the dz. Felt good. Had randos being cool and helping to defend against ai and rogue dicks. Only two hours and 10 or attempts to call in a helo later!
It seems to me that one of the big issues with the this whole phoenix credit issue is that there's just not enough grades of loot. If you're decked out in blue and purples just by the time you reach 30, and then decked out fully in purples after a few hours in the DZ, that means that High End gear and farming Phoenix Credits is the only thing left.
Seems to me if drop rates of High Ends by DZ mobs was pretty rare, that would make actually playing and farming in the DZ something that is both useful and fun, and a good time sink. They could then introduce Super-Duper-High-End (rather than HE, now) gear for use with Phoenix Credits as the ultimate goal, but one that you get slowly from playing in the DZ.
But I agree, this gating through Dailies is a terrible design move. At the very least, Massive has shown that they do read the forums/Reddit, and listen. So we can only hope that they are in the process of making better balance changes, while this was merely a stopgap measure.
Yeah. Now that I know you can still earn 30 per Challenge run, I'm just confused about what they thought this fix would do.
Now instead of having options for getting Phoenix Credits spread out across missions, drops, the DZ, and Challenge Mode, you only have Challenge Mode. So they haven't really "fixed" the availability of Phoenix Credits. They've just made it so you have to grind the same mission over and over if you want them. I can still get a few hundred PC a day, I just have to do it by way of the most repetitive PVE grind possible.
Yesterday I was moving through all six areas of the DZ hunting named enemies and having to deal with the occasional Rogue pack. It was way more dynamic and interesting than running Lincoln Tunnel ten times in a row, and it probably gave me fewer Phoenix Credits/hour or whatever they're so worried about.
EDIT: Oh, and don't forget that Set Items are coming with Incursions. So there is one more tier to go.
That still sounds incredibly tedious and backwards. One quick fix they could add is some sort of gear grinder. Like every level 30 purple item gives 1-2 PC. Instead of making the PC just plain drops, they should make extracting gear still meaningful, otherwise it basically eliminates a huge portion of the mexican standoff that makes the DZ great.
Anecdotally, the level 30 DZ has been completely dead for me since the Phoenix Credit change. I've been in and out of it a bunch today and seen absolutely no one.
Anecdotally, the level 30 DZ has been completely dead for me since the Phoenix Credit change. I've been in and out of it a bunch today and seen absolutely no one.
I'm actually curious, is there anyone there anyway? I've been in the 1-14 zone and had trouble to find people, the level 30 zone has to be a very small percentage of players at this point.
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Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited March 2016
Only level 19 still.
But Rank 25 Dark Zone 8-)
That godly purple M1A from the Safehouse vendor in The Dark Zone is soon mine (replacing the level 17 purple M1A I'm currently using), I can unlock both talents from the beginning and it seems like it resets in like... A week? Plenty of time.
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
I like the dynamic weather but god damn is it annoying to get heavy snow during a main story mission. Not being able to see shit makes them basically impossible.
I like the dynamic weather but god damn is it annoying to get heavy snow during a main story mission. Not being able to see shit makes them basically impossible.
I need a Thermal Nightvision scope for my M1A for that shit sometimes.
Ran around with my buddy and a random (not grouped up with) and another random comes around when we are extracting, he throws a grenade in the middle of the extraction zone just as we are extracting, I go around his cover and put that asshole into the ground, single M1A shot to the back of the head and let him bleed out while doing jumping jacks on his downed body.
Achievement Unlocked indeed. (Kill a Rogue) apparently I've been killing a few people in Dark Zones, they just werent rogues yet, but they were baiting me to go rogue and I waited until I could take them both out They got their wish, just not in the way they hoped.
Posts
I was being sarcastic, but I agree with your take on this. I do not agree with this change.
If the idea here is you progress until 30 and then just run around ganking each other, that the game pushes you toward an endgame where the only gameplay left is to gank each other with no progression, well yeah I'm not down for that.
Progression is one of the defining traits of what most people consider an "RPG". I don't really want to go down the "what is an RPG?" route here, but that's how I see it.
See, it's not about filling bars entirely. It's literally about what you just said. The players choice and progression. They built a seamless party and world system that is just super great. Filled this massive detailed world tons of story and character, it really shines.
If you bottleneck gameplay into dailies and such, the drive goes away for many people. Sure, it works for MMO's and all that but look at how much "fun" they are having. It's just a chore at a certain point. Giving flexibility in where to go without interfering with pacing of gear (which should not be as fast as it was before the hotfix) is exactly the kind of atmosphere in which those amazing experiences you described occur.
My love for those very experiences is what drives the passion I have for this game and the fear that comes with a lifetime of watching games like this fall flat on their face due to knee-jerk reactions to imbalance.
This hotfix was like seeing your ex after 10 years. You thought you left that shit all behind but it comes flooding back in seconds.
Edit: My apologies @Drez - am not the best at detecting sarcasm. XD
Rikers hates him!
One weird trick that the Cleaners don't want you to know!
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
That's how it should work, to me.
(granted, narratively I feel that retaking the dark zone should be the game's real endgame; bringing down the jammers, establishing uplinks, establishing control one step at a time. but hey. gotta give the silly geese their playground.)
DS Friend code: 3840-6605-3406
Please tell me that's not the case.
PSN: ShogunGunshow
Origin: ShogunGunshow
It is not the case.
EDIT - to elaborate, I've upgraded to a level 20 (around 20, anyways...+/-2) that does a maximum of 15k damage per shot.
Yeah, I really hope when the patch previewed stuff about the dark zone they're planning to add more soft interactions and choices to it. Stuff like being able to help the JTF establish bases in the dz or tear them down if you're a rogue.
I have a blue level 14 sawed off I bought.
And I think it's really important to try and enjoy the gameplay moments in themselves rather than staring yourself blind at increasing numbers. I can play a mission because I really enjoy playing a mission, not because I want to increase my level, but to each their own. I mean maybe you can't really expect engaging progression after 60 gameplay hours, it's gonna become prestige grinding eventually.
Man I love how every time I get bumrushed and killed as rogue level 5 I can hear people on open mic laughing or going "Yesss!". The whole thing is such a win-win, it's super tense to fight superior numbers as a rogue, and whoever manages to get me gets a big dopamine loot pinata.
I kinda agree though that the mechanic itself isn't really balanced as it is, there's no risk/reward reason to go rogue or grind DZ bucks or keys. I have a lot of unused keys but they're not really useful for me right now. It's a lot of fun though!
Edit: Unleash your id, stop identifying as rogue or not-rogue. Just screw someone over sometime, it'll feel great I promise. Find some dude who is blasting loud keyboard or dumb shit on open mic and shoot him. You'll have more fun playing both sides for sure!
Didn't like it.
Mostly just felt bad because of it, despite being rather grouchy at them over being screwed in the past.
I'm not you, you're not me.
DS Friend code: 3840-6605-3406
I mean, did you have an epic fire fight or did you just sticky bomb a level 8 and walk away? You can't tell me an actual fight isn't engaging.
Edit: I mean please tell me you at least shoot down rogues and enjoy sweet sweet loot piles to taste some of that pvp. It's cool how rogue hunting mobs just form and cooperate.
Nah
There are plenty of side missions (blueprints) and encounters (base points) to do until you hit the right level for the next story mission.
Xbox Live / Steam
I enjoy the high RPM ones, the best so far is the ACR I think. Gives you burst damage at medium range which the LMGs don't have.
LMG for sustained, AR for bursts.
DS Friend code: 3840-6605-3406
Running Challenge mode gives you 30 PC any time you beat it, regardless of daily status. So that's a solution if you have the stomach for running the same mission over and over again.
It pretty much just shifts the grind outside of the DZ and into challenge mode, which seems strange.
People are of course upset, but to be honest they were kinda making getting High end gear a bit trivial.
And please take that crying dude next to the workbench away to another corner of the base!
It's not fun converting green materials to blue while constantly hearing "Uh uh uh weep uhuh uh weep snifl uh uh uuuh"...
Fun fact, he leaves once you build the counseling center.
When fighting groups I have 100% uptime on Smart Cover and Turret. Disgusting.
re: ARs vs. LMGs, ARs have better range and better burst fire. LMGs are more useful as short/medium range bullet hoses.
Seems to me if drop rates of High Ends by DZ mobs was pretty rare, that would make actually playing and farming in the DZ something that is both useful and fun, and a good time sink. They could then introduce Super-Duper-High-End (rather than HE, now) gear for use with Phoenix Credits as the ultimate goal, but one that you get slowly from playing in the DZ.
But I agree, this gating through Dailies is a terrible design move. At the very least, Massive has shown that they do read the forums/Reddit, and listen. So we can only hope that they are in the process of making better balance changes, while this was merely a stopgap measure.
The second day I tried to do this side mission. Still won't load. Guys they can stay alive!
Yeah. Now that I know you can still earn 30 per Challenge run, I'm just confused about what they thought this fix would do.
Now instead of having options for getting Phoenix Credits spread out across missions, drops, the DZ, and Challenge Mode, you only have Challenge Mode. So they haven't really "fixed" the availability of Phoenix Credits. They've just made it so you have to grind the same mission over and over if you want them. I can still get a few hundred PC a day, I just have to do it by way of the most repetitive PVE grind possible.
Yesterday I was moving through all six areas of the DZ hunting named enemies and having to deal with the occasional Rogue pack. It was way more dynamic and interesting than running Lincoln Tunnel ten times in a row, and it probably gave me fewer Phoenix Credits/hour or whatever they're so worried about.
EDIT: Oh, and don't forget that Set Items are coming with Incursions. So there is one more tier to go.
Civilian, to JTF Soldier: "This is America, we don't just kill people based off suspicion!"
Agent: *whistles and walks away*
Police academy spoilers:
... *Deletes security footage*
That still sounds incredibly tedious and backwards. One quick fix they could add is some sort of gear grinder. Like every level 30 purple item gives 1-2 PC. Instead of making the PC just plain drops, they should make extracting gear still meaningful, otherwise it basically eliminates a huge portion of the mexican standoff that makes the DZ great.
Not at all. Just matchmake one that is close to your level and level up that way. 14 at 11 will be a little rough but not impossible.
I'm actually curious, is there anyone there anyway? I've been in the 1-14 zone and had trouble to find people, the level 30 zone has to be a very small percentage of players at this point.
But Rank 25 Dark Zone 8-)
That godly purple M1A from the Safehouse vendor in The Dark Zone is soon mine (replacing the level 17 purple M1A I'm currently using), I can unlock both talents from the beginning and it seems like it resets in like... A week? Plenty of time.
Yes. I'd love to group up if you want. My hours to play are random and sporadic but i'm down if you see me on.
Am 11/11 right now. Dz levelling goes fast
Also if you die as rogue, the DZ rank points you lose, are equivalent to 2-3 hours of grind, it's just not worth the risk.
The rank 50 stuff also becomes worthless by the time you're rank 50.
I need a Thermal Nightvision scope for my M1A for that shit sometimes.
Ran around with my buddy and a random (not grouped up with) and another random comes around when we are extracting, he throws a grenade in the middle of the extraction zone just as we are extracting, I go around his cover and put that asshole into the ground, single M1A shot to the back of the head and let him bleed out while doing jumping jacks on his downed body.
Achievement Unlocked indeed. (Kill a Rogue) apparently I've been killing a few people in Dark Zones, they just werent rogues yet, but they were baiting me to go rogue and I waited until I could take them both out