I keep seeing people say Genji is a Bastion counter. Maybe if Bastion is awful and doesn't let go of left click? I also said nothing about liking or not liking Symmetra. Tracer is just very very good and I would argue is a lot more likely to get behind and murder a stationary Bastion than a Genji would be. Also, assuming the game is just too complex (it isn't) for people to form opinions about it and have ideas on it after a few days is kind of goofy.
A thing you like can have flaws and still be fun.
Edit: Also, Hitboxes are definitely all sorts of crazy. Many models headshot location is anything above their chest, including the air, it's been tested a bit and depending on the character weapon it can grow or shrink. One of such videos.
The Roadhog hook hit location is actually the most surprising.
I'm not saying the game's perfect. There are small issues here and there (Widow's shot charge being a tad too short, for instance), but I think the balance is in a really good place.
I keep seeing people say Genji is a Bastion counter. Maybe if Bastion is awful and doesn't let go of left click? I also said nothing about liking or not liking Symmetra. Tracer is just very very good and I would argue is a lot more likely to get behind and murder a stationary Bastion than a Genji would be. Also, assuming the game is just too complex (it isn't) for people to form opinions about it and have ideas on it after a few days is kind of goofy.
A thing you like can have flaws and still be fun.
Edit: Also, Hitboxes are definitely all sorts of crazy. Many models headshot location is anything above their chest, including the air, it's been tested a bit and depending on the character weapon it can grow or shrink. One of such videos.
The Roadhog hook hit location is actually the most surprising.
Bastion often doesn't have time to stop attacking before he's dead from Genji unless he's really far away. It takes just over 1 second or so to kill him. Good bastions absolutely can stop in time, but the problem there is that while they are waiting for the deflection to stop, Genji just sends three shurikens to finish them off, since he was already aiming directly at the Bastion and he is immobile. The bastion will die before he can being fire again. Absolute worst case scenario is that Bastion loses a lot of health and has to reposition anyways. But 9 times out of 10 the Bastion is just dead.
Don't forget Genji can move while deflecting and can run towards a bastion, so just in case the deflection didn't kill him (Genji can wait until Bastion starts firing before he uses it) Genji will easily be able to finish him off with shurikens or just dash him and kill him that way. No matter how you slice it (haha) Genji comes out on top if you assume anywhere near an equal measure of skill. I absolutely love seeing Bastions in a match just because of how hard Genji shuts them down. And the cooldown on the deflection is so short that even if you somehow screw it up, you can just do it again a few seconds later.
Genji is generally considered in the community to be a hard counter for Bastion, and beyond the anecdotal evidence I personally have from killing a wide variety of skilled Bastions for months with Genji, every guide I've read on the subject and general conversations I've had about it with other players says the same.
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If two Reinhardt's collide on a charge, their charge should instantly refresh. Then they could just keep ramming into each other like a pair of rutting stags until one finally gives up and goes away.
He's considered one of the lowest tier heroes in higher level play, currently.
So either all the people who already put hundreds of hours into this game are wrong, or it's the people who played for 3 days who are wrong.
I'll just reiterate the point I made earlier about context here.
"Bastion is OP" is not a statement that can be readily understood in a vacuum. It would be true to say "Bastion is OP when you are new to the game or have a lower skill level", just as it would be true to say "Bastion is not OP if you have a lot of experience with the game or have a higher skill level".
I think what has made this thread in particular so weirdly antagonistic is that on both sides people are taking things super personal and making very declarative statements of opinion as though they are fact.
Yes, pro-level gamers probably all agree that Bastion is not a high-priority hero to pick. But that doesn't matter to people who are new or just play this game on the weekends. They don't play pro games against pro gamers. They play against other casual gamers. And in those games, Bastion is fucking stupid because you can abuse map LoS and team comp synergy against your opponents, and they really don't have much to counter it beyond simply getting better at the game or coordinating better with their teammates, which frankly is not always an option, and kind of comes off as dismissive.
It's certainly possible, albeit difficult, to balance Bastion in such a way that he is less abusive in low-skill games. In fact, it's likely possible, albeit even more difficult, to balance him to be both less abusive in low-skill games and more viable in high-skill games. I think we'd all agree that this would be a better state for the game then where he is now.
You misunderstand the role of a pub stompers. If bastion were "fixed", it would probably be Thorbjörn. Then if that one was "fixed", the next character.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
Should the game instead adapt to those players?
I think not, because you would never ever see the end of it.
I'm curious as to how the console versions differs from the PC version, and if there's a list of differences anywhere, or if changes are planned?? The inability to do sick 360 noscopes certainly seems like it has some fairly drastic balance implications. For example in the PC version I imagine Reaper would be an excellent counter to Reinhardt because you can pop up quickly behind his shield, blow him away, and then Wraith-peace-out. But on console the reality is that the turning circle is too slow to deal with the huge arc of his hammer. Similarly, consider Winston, on console it's damn near impossible to land his leap / stick to targets, so he's relatively useless, but I often feel like if I could acquire targets better with him I'd be wrecking house.
The above issues are also magnified when you have Ult's like Soldier 76's, and it massively increases the deadliness of turrets because they melt you too quick to target them.
Balancing to mitigate pubstompers is absolutely a thing you can do, as all competitive games nowadays do. There may always be one, but they will always be less stompy than the last.
Also yes I think the game might be more fun if torb and Bastion didn't basically deny their entire Los to new players.
Balancing to mitigate pubstompers is absolutely a thing you can do, as all competitive games nowadays do. There may always be one, but they will always be less stompy than the last.
Also yes I think the game might be more fun if torb and Bastion didn't basically deny their entire Los to new players.
I'm not talking about mitigating pubstompers for new players. I'm talking about specific console problems compared to PC at all skill levels. For example, Torb's turrets acquire and shoot targets at the same speed and at the same damge as on PC, yet on console you cannot target and fire on those turrets as fast as with a KBAM. This is quite a glaring problem. Even if you have super saiyan reaction times, that's the difference between surviving with 50% HP and being dead. I'm curious to see how the dev team plan to mitigate these factors. Pretty much any ability that targets and shoots automatically is going to be considerably more powerful on console because of the increased time to react it takes with a controller. So Reaper's Ult, Soldier 76's Ult, all turrets.
Conversely, Ult's that hold you in place and require quick aiming become less effective, or any ult that requires managing verticality. I'm thinking specifically of rocket lady, but I'm sure there are others.
ALRIGHT FINE I GOT AN AVATAR
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
roadhog is a one shot machine and im not talkin about the hook
theres a range where his right click airbursts and all the shots hit somebody and im pretty sure it 1-shots 200 hp characters if there are a few headshots in there
its fucking ridiculous? if u stand the right range from certain doorways u literally just see somebody come thru and brap them then yell BRAP BRAP BRAP into the mic then ur making grime
roadhog is a one shot machine and im not talkin about the hook
theres a range where his right click airbursts and all the shots hit somebody and im pretty sure it 1-shots 200 hp characters if there are a few headshots in there
its fucking ridiculous? if u stand the right range from certain doorways u literally just see somebody come thru and brap them then yell BRAP BRAP BRAP into the mic then ur making grime
Afaik his alt fire is just a shotgun blast at a point a few meters from you. It'll one shot anybody you normally can but it's really hard to thread the needle on that.
You misunderstand the role of a pub stompers. If bastion were "fixed", it would probably be Thorbjörn. Then if that one was "fixed", the next character.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
I don't think that's true. As Milski said, there may be some characters with an edge vs pubs, but it doesn't mean they're at full pubstomper level. Looking at this thread the complaints are basically about bastion and widow maker... And if you look at bastion, he's basically a rapid-fire sniper who's as comfortable taking down an entire team at close range in seconds as he is firing at enemies that are so far away that they're barely visible. Reinhardt just makes him stupid.
But it also depends on the map. There's one map with a choke point where you have a choice of 3 doors to go through to get into a large room, and the other team was easily able to cover them with bastion, reinhardt, and mei was backing them up by making sure we couldn't rush through. Oh and a junkrat was making things difficult, too.
OK, so as I talk through that one I think it's poor map design on that particular level. But still, no other character has the long and short range killing power of bastion.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
roadhog is a one shot machine and im not talkin about the hook
theres a range where his right click airbursts and all the shots hit somebody and im pretty sure it 1-shots 200 hp characters if there are a few headshots in there
its fucking ridiculous? if u stand the right range from certain doorways u literally just see somebody come thru and brap them then yell BRAP BRAP BRAP into the mic then ur making grime
Afaik his alt fire is just a shotgun blast at a point a few meters from you. It'll one shot anybody you normally can but it's really hard to thread the needle on that.
its not actually hard because its so accurate u just need to think of it like a projectile its pretty speedy
In fact, I think bastion is pretty much the quintessential pubstomper that needs a rework: immensely frustrating and higher effort to counter than to play for newbies, bad in competitive. His design just doesn't seem good from either perspective.
roadhog is a one shot machine and im not talkin about the hook
theres a range where his right click airbursts and all the shots hit somebody and im pretty sure it 1-shots 200 hp characters if there are a few headshots in there
its fucking ridiculous? if u stand the right range from certain doorways u literally just see somebody come thru and brap them then yell BRAP BRAP BRAP into the mic then ur making grime
Afaik his alt fire is just a shotgun blast at a point a few meters from you. It'll one shot anybody you normally can but it's really hard to thread the needle on that.
its not actually hard because its so accurate u just need to think of it like a projectile its pretty speedy
it also shits on other roadhogs rip...
To do good damage it isn't hard but to get the one shots it'sa lot trickier.
Honestly, I don't mind Torb, because his turrets aren't as deadly as bastion. And the fact that it's separate from him, and therefore reliant on AI, makes it not nearly as frustrating as turretboy.
+3
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
You misunderstand the role of a pub stompers. If bastion were "fixed", it would probably be Thorbjörn. Then if that one was "fixed", the next character.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
I don't think that's true. As Milski said, there may be some characters with an edge vs pubs, but it doesn't mean they're at full pubstomper level. Looking at this thread the complaints are basically about bastion and widow maker... And if you look at bastion, he's basically a rapid-fire sniper who's as comfortable taking down an entire team at close range in seconds as he is firing at enemies that are so far away that they're barely visible. Reinhardt just makes him stupid.
But it also depends on the map. There's one map with a choke point where you have a choice of 3 doors to go through to get into a large room, and the other team was easily able to cover them with bastion, reinhardt, and mei was backing them up by making sure we couldn't rush through. Oh and a junkrat was making things difficult, too.
OK, so as I talk through that one I think it's poor map design on that particular level. But still, no other character has the long and short range killing power of bastion.
Nerf his accuracy and I think I would be ok with him.
I don't have strong opinions on torb, but his turret being ridiculously fast to pick up targets, long range, and 360 degrees at least breaks a lot of typical assumptions about turrets in games. The dps being somewhat low is probably to counteract all those advantages.
You misunderstand the role of a pub stompers. If bastion were "fixed", it would probably be Thorbjörn. Then if that one was "fixed", the next character.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
I don't think that's true. As Milski said, there may be some characters with an edge vs pubs, but it doesn't mean they're at full pubstomper level. Looking at this thread the complaints are basically about bastion and widow maker... And if you look at bastion, he's basically a rapid-fire sniper who's as comfortable taking down an entire team at close range in seconds as he is firing at enemies that are so far away that they're barely visible. Reinhardt just makes him stupid.
But it also depends on the map. There's one map with a choke point where you have a choice of 3 doors to go through to get into a large room, and the other team was easily able to cover them with bastion, reinhardt, and mei was backing them up by making sure we couldn't rush through. Oh and a junkrat was making things difficult, too.
OK, so as I talk through that one I think it's poor map design on that particular level. But still, no other character has the long and short range killing power of bastion.
Nerf his accuracy and I think I would be ok with him.
Lower magazine size in turret mode might also be an option. Near perfect accuracy, but more time spent reloading to allow for more openings in the murderfire to retaliate.
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You misunderstand the role of a pub stompers. If bastion were "fixed", it would probably be Thorbjörn. Then if that one was "fixed", the next character.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
I don't think that's true. As Milski said, there may be some characters with an edge vs pubs, but it doesn't mean they're at full pubstomper level. Looking at this thread the complaints are basically about bastion and widow maker... And if you look at bastion, he's basically a rapid-fire sniper who's as comfortable taking down an entire team at close range in seconds as he is firing at enemies that are so far away that they're barely visible. Reinhardt just makes him stupid.
But it also depends on the map. There's one map with a choke point where you have a choice of 3 doors to go through to get into a large room, and the other team was easily able to cover them with bastion, reinhardt, and mei was backing them up by making sure we couldn't rush through. Oh and a junkrat was making things difficult, too.
OK, so as I talk through that one I think it's poor map design on that particular level. But still, no other character has the long and short range killing power of bastion.
Nerf his accuracy and I think I would be ok with him.
Lower magazine size in turret mode might also be an option. Near perfect accuracy, but more time spent reloading to allow for more openings in the murderfire to retaliate.
If they are keeping his basic mechanics he will never be viable in top tier play anyway so they could just nerf away. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of a spin up time on the gatling gun personally.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
That is what I was thinking.
Wind up time on the Siege mode, then shorten the time it takes to switch out of it.
This way it requires them to move about more and find safe spots, as opposed to now where they just plop down in one location and stay there the whole game. With wind up time, once someone finds him they can just LOS dance until he needs to reload or stops firing and can take him down before he winds up.
I think that increases the skill cap to play him enough to make it less pubstomp right?
Bastion doesn't need direct nerfs because his design is clearly bad since he's weak in competitive and frustrating in pubs. He needs a rework.
My random suggestion toss out: speed up scout mode slightly, make sentry mode aiming much slower, replace self heal with a brief radar pulse in scout mode and a target marking passive (radar if you hit the target) in sentry mode, possibly tweak damage.
Goals: give him utility and mobility for competitive games, decrease his numerical superiority and infinite self sustain for pubs with few supports. Make scout and sentry mode feel more scouty and more sentryey
Love it when I get hooked and immediately E out of it.
Wirpwirpwirpwirp!
Roadhog has to be really bad to let this happen.
Indeed.
Which is why I love it so much.
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
Had a lot of great games this weekend.
Decent Widomakers are currently our bane. Both when they are kicking ass by themselves and especially when they are supporting other strong strategies.
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
In fact, I think bastion is pretty much the quintessential pubstomper that needs a rework: immensely frustrating and higher effort to counter than to play for newbies, bad in competitive. His design just doesn't seem good from either perspective.
To be blunt about this, Bastion is a perfect demonstration of how good the Heavy's design in TF2 is.
Overwatch struggles with having too many heroes being hard counters to each other, which leaves characters like McCree and Soldier-76 - who hard counter nobody and have no hard counters themselves - the most ideal for competitive teams.
If anything the "it's not used in competitive!" argument is actually demonstrating the opposite of what everyone here is using it for. Bastion is OP, but his hard counters are also necessarily OP at shutting him down. This leaves Overwatch in a place where character-switching is seen as the strategy by a number of medium-level players, leaving most of these players feeling that the game is not how you played so much as who you played; meanwhile pros take the groups that have the most synergy while having the least character-to-character hard counters (gamemode factors excepted).
...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
Had a match on Gibralter where we were defending. The attacking team decided to try the ole' 5 Winston and 1 Lucio. They may have had a lot more fun if we hadn't on a whim decided to go double Bastion. Eventually they gave up and switched to a more balanced / Bastion counter team and they actually got the first point. That was it though.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
While I don't think Bastion is OP I will say that I don't think Bastion should be able to break through a full Reinhardt shield and kill the full health Reinhardt without needing to reload.
Otherwise there are plenty of counters to Bastion.
Hell, I'm lvl 13 or so at the moment and I'm noticing that picking Bastion is a quick way to die now. Genji is terrifying as a Bastion. Also Reinhardt shield with damn near anybody behind him is also devastating to the ol' Bastion.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
I don't have strong opinions on torb, but his turret being ridiculously fast to pick up targets, long range, and 360 degrees at least breaks a lot of typical assumptions about turrets in games. The dps being somewhat low is probably to counteract all those advantages.
Not as long range as Bastion though. Torb turrets are weak to Pharah - jump for a clear line of sight, rocket or two, drop.
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I'm not saying the game's perfect. There are small issues here and there (Widow's shot charge being a tad too short, for instance), but I think the balance is in a really good place.
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Bastion often doesn't have time to stop attacking before he's dead from Genji unless he's really far away. It takes just over 1 second or so to kill him. Good bastions absolutely can stop in time, but the problem there is that while they are waiting for the deflection to stop, Genji just sends three shurikens to finish them off, since he was already aiming directly at the Bastion and he is immobile. The bastion will die before he can being fire again. Absolute worst case scenario is that Bastion loses a lot of health and has to reposition anyways. But 9 times out of 10 the Bastion is just dead.
Don't forget Genji can move while deflecting and can run towards a bastion, so just in case the deflection didn't kill him (Genji can wait until Bastion starts firing before he uses it) Genji will easily be able to finish him off with shurikens or just dash him and kill him that way. No matter how you slice it (haha) Genji comes out on top if you assume anywhere near an equal measure of skill. I absolutely love seeing Bastions in a match just because of how hard Genji shuts them down. And the cooldown on the deflection is so short that even if you somehow screw it up, you can just do it again a few seconds later.
Genji is generally considered in the community to be a hard counter for Bastion, and beyond the anecdotal evidence I personally have from killing a wide variety of skilled Bastions for months with Genji, every guide I've read on the subject and general conversations I've had about it with other players says the same.
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Yep, everything.
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If two Reinhardt's collide on a charge, their charge should instantly refresh. Then they could just keep ramming into each other like a pair of rutting stags until one finally gives up and goes away.
He's considered one of the lowest tier heroes in higher level play, currently.
So either all the people who already put hundreds of hours into this game are wrong, or it's the people who played for 3 days who are wrong.
low-tier in comp and "makes new players quit because he seems bullshit" is not an ideal combination for a character
I'll just reiterate the point I made earlier about context here.
"Bastion is OP" is not a statement that can be readily understood in a vacuum. It would be true to say "Bastion is OP when you are new to the game or have a lower skill level", just as it would be true to say "Bastion is not OP if you have a lot of experience with the game or have a higher skill level".
I think what has made this thread in particular so weirdly antagonistic is that on both sides people are taking things super personal and making very declarative statements of opinion as though they are fact.
Yes, pro-level gamers probably all agree that Bastion is not a high-priority hero to pick. But that doesn't matter to people who are new or just play this game on the weekends. They don't play pro games against pro gamers. They play against other casual gamers. And in those games, Bastion is fucking stupid because you can abuse map LoS and team comp synergy against your opponents, and they really don't have much to counter it beyond simply getting better at the game or coordinating better with their teammates, which frankly is not always an option, and kind of comes off as dismissive.
It's certainly possible, albeit difficult, to balance Bastion in such a way that he is less abusive in low-skill games. In fact, it's likely possible, albeit even more difficult, to balance him to be both less abusive in low-skill games and more viable in high-skill games. I think we'd all agree that this would be a better state for the game then where he is now.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
Should the game instead adapt to those players?
I think not, because you would never ever see the end of it.
The above issues are also magnified when you have Ult's like Soldier 76's, and it massively increases the deadliness of turrets because they melt you too quick to target them.
Steam: adamjnet
Also yes I think the game might be more fun if torb and Bastion didn't basically deny their entire Los to new players.
I'm not talking about mitigating pubstompers for new players. I'm talking about specific console problems compared to PC at all skill levels. For example, Torb's turrets acquire and shoot targets at the same speed and at the same damge as on PC, yet on console you cannot target and fire on those turrets as fast as with a KBAM. This is quite a glaring problem. Even if you have super saiyan reaction times, that's the difference between surviving with 50% HP and being dead. I'm curious to see how the dev team plan to mitigate these factors. Pretty much any ability that targets and shoots automatically is going to be considerably more powerful on console because of the increased time to react it takes with a controller. So Reaper's Ult, Soldier 76's Ult, all turrets.
Conversely, Ult's that hold you in place and require quick aiming become less effective, or any ult that requires managing verticality. I'm thinking specifically of rocket lady, but I'm sure there are others.
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theres a range where his right click airbursts and all the shots hit somebody and im pretty sure it 1-shots 200 hp characters if there are a few headshots in there
its fucking ridiculous? if u stand the right range from certain doorways u literally just see somebody come thru and brap them then yell BRAP BRAP BRAP into the mic then ur making grime
Afaik his alt fire is just a shotgun blast at a point a few meters from you. It'll one shot anybody you normally can but it's really hard to thread the needle on that.
I don't think that's true. As Milski said, there may be some characters with an edge vs pubs, but it doesn't mean they're at full pubstomper level. Looking at this thread the complaints are basically about bastion and widow maker... And if you look at bastion, he's basically a rapid-fire sniper who's as comfortable taking down an entire team at close range in seconds as he is firing at enemies that are so far away that they're barely visible. Reinhardt just makes him stupid.
But it also depends on the map. There's one map with a choke point where you have a choice of 3 doors to go through to get into a large room, and the other team was easily able to cover them with bastion, reinhardt, and mei was backing them up by making sure we couldn't rush through. Oh and a junkrat was making things difficult, too.
OK, so as I talk through that one I think it's poor map design on that particular level. But still, no other character has the long and short range killing power of bastion.
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its not actually hard because its so accurate u just need to think of it like a projectile its pretty speedy
it also shits on other roadhogs rip...
To do good damage it isn't hard but to get the one shots it'sa lot trickier.
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Triple zippin across the gap in Gibraltar and putting down 3 enemies from behind was something I just did and it was amazing.
Nerf his accuracy and I think I would be ok with him.
Lower magazine size in turret mode might also be an option. Near perfect accuracy, but more time spent reloading to allow for more openings in the murderfire to retaliate.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Still waiting on Dan "Man of his Word" Ryckert to eat a hat
If they are keeping his basic mechanics he will never be viable in top tier play anyway so they could just nerf away. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of a spin up time on the gatling gun personally.
Wind up time on the Siege mode, then shorten the time it takes to switch out of it.
This way it requires them to move about more and find safe spots, as opposed to now where they just plop down in one location and stay there the whole game. With wind up time, once someone finds him they can just LOS dance until he needs to reload or stops firing and can take him down before he winds up.
I think that increases the skill cap to play him enough to make it less pubstomp right?
My random suggestion toss out: speed up scout mode slightly, make sentry mode aiming much slower, replace self heal with a brief radar pulse in scout mode and a target marking passive (radar if you hit the target) in sentry mode, possibly tweak damage.
Goals: give him utility and mobility for competitive games, decrease his numerical superiority and infinite self sustain for pubs with few supports. Make scout and sentry mode feel more scouty and more sentryey
Just Roadhog things.
Love it when I get hooked and immediately E out of it.
Wirpwirpwirpwirp!
Roadhog has to be really bad to let this happen.
Indeed.
Which is why I love it so much.
Decent Widomakers are currently our bane. Both when they are kicking ass by themselves and especially when they are supporting other strong strategies.
Overwatch struggles with having too many heroes being hard counters to each other, which leaves characters like McCree and Soldier-76 - who hard counter nobody and have no hard counters themselves - the most ideal for competitive teams.
If anything the "it's not used in competitive!" argument is actually demonstrating the opposite of what everyone here is using it for. Bastion is OP, but his hard counters are also necessarily OP at shutting him down. This leaves Overwatch in a place where character-switching is seen as the strategy by a number of medium-level players, leaving most of these players feeling that the game is not how you played so much as who you played; meanwhile pros take the groups that have the most synergy while having the least character-to-character hard counters (gamemode factors excepted).
Otherwise there are plenty of counters to Bastion.
Hell, I'm lvl 13 or so at the moment and I'm noticing that picking Bastion is a quick way to die now. Genji is terrifying as a Bastion. Also Reinhardt shield with damn near anybody behind him is also devastating to the ol' Bastion.
Not as long range as Bastion though. Torb turrets are weak to Pharah - jump for a clear line of sight, rocket or two, drop.
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