Bastion is really not as much of a pubstomper as some people act like he is
Even just in the couple of days of open beta I've started seeing a lot less bastions, because people are already figuring out how to beat him or flank him. Blizzard shouldn't be making balance changes to fit a community that is 95% brand new to the game, because that's not going to keep being a thing for very long. It's already an issue that's fixing itself. If half your team knows how to hard counter bastion, then you're just fine, cuz all you need is one genji or one mei popping ice walls
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I don't have strong opinions on torb, but his turret being ridiculously fast to pick up targets, long range, and 360 degrees at least breaks a lot of typical assumptions about turrets in games. The dps being somewhat low is probably to counteract all those advantages.
Not as long range as Bastion though. Torb turrets are weak to Pharah - jump for a clear line of sight, rocket or two, drop.
Yup, Torbjorn turrets cap out at 40m. Both Pharah and Widowmaker can easily outrange and drop them, even while Torbjorn is actively trying to repair it (probably kill Torb in the process). Alternatively if you can't get the range, Reinhardt + anybody, Winston, or Junkrat can take them out easily. Genji can do it as well if he has cover he can duck behind in between shots since the turret takes a brief moment to acquire a target, which is long enough for Genji to lob three shurikens. Genji can also outrange the turret since his shurikens have no falloff and fly straight. Deflection is not as useful though since the turret doesn't fire too quickly and it only lasts 2 seconds, it's good to finish off a turret sitting around 50% though.
The big thing is that just having two people is typically enough to kill a turret if they focus it. It can only acquire one target at a time and takes long enough to kill a target that a coordinated effort should be able to take it out.
Where the turret really shines is in areas where fighting is already breaking out and it can fire with impunity. That's why I like setting mine up to cover points where once the enemy engages the point, they are distracted either by my team, or by the objective they are trying to take. That's how you rack up a 30 kill streak.
Also don't be too far from your turret at any point, it's your buddy and he gets lonely.
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I don't have strong opinions on torb, but his turret being ridiculously fast to pick up targets, long range, and 360 degrees at least breaks a lot of typical assumptions about turrets in games. The dps being somewhat low is probably to counteract all those advantages.
Not as long range as Bastion though. Torb turrets are weak to Pharah - jump for a clear line of sight, rocket or two, drop.
Turrets have enough range to hit pharah in most situations that she can hit them, so she still has to pop and shoot if the torb is either healing the turret or sniping her out of the air. It's a good counter but it isn't quite perfect.
I ate an engineer
+1
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
One thing I've notice some folks doing on Torb. There really is not much need to face your turret out in the open. I've actually noticed this being the downfall of a couple of turret placements. Folks letting the barrels stick out just a bit. And they can absolutely be shot to damage the turrets.
But the fact that it instantly spins and acquires targets, you can point that thing at a wall and it would be just as effective it seems.
0
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Bastion is really not as much of a pubstomper as some people act like he is
Even just in the couple of days of open beta I've started seeing a lot less bastions, because people are already figuring out how to beat him or flank him. Blizzard shouldn't be making balance changes to fit a community that is 95% brand new to the game, because that's not going to keep being a thing for very long. It's already an issue that's fixing itself. If half your team knows how to hard counter bastion, then you're just fine, cuz all you need is one genji or one mei popping ice walls
I'm inclined to agree.
When the open beta started like 90% of the players were brand new and I admit during the first day or two Bastion was crazy effective. Now though? I don't think it's the case anymore.
What I think happened is that Bastion gained a rep for being OP real quick and so a lot of people annoyed by him looked up guides and learned.
Now what I'm seeing is a round getting underway, people getting in to the fight, and partway through someone busts out a Bastion to devastating effect. After that surprise assault he ends up countered hard and fast and I don't see another Bastion for the rest of the round.
Typically that first "Surprise mutha'fuckas!" by Bastion is enough to cement him for potg.
But I rarely see that level of effectiveness repeat itself for the rest of the game.
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The first days of the open beta were full of Bastions complaining about Junkrat being OP because I could angle shots and hit Bastions that just sat there and took it instead of moving.
One thing I've notice some folks doing on Torb. There really is not much need to face your turret out in the open. I've actually noticed this being the downfall of a couple of turret placements. Folks letting the barrels stick out just a bit. And they can absolutely be shot to damage the turrets.
But the fact that it instantly spins and acquires targets, you can point that thing at a wall and it would be just as effective it seems.
I don't think it instantly spins, iirc there are a few frames of acquisition time.
Bastion is really not as much of a pubstomper as some people act like he is
Even just in the couple of days of open beta I've started seeing a lot less bastions, because people are already figuring out how to beat him or flank him. Blizzard shouldn't be making balance changes to fit a community that is 95% brand new to the game, because that's not going to keep being a thing for very long. It's already an issue that's fixing itself. If half your team knows how to hard counter bastion, then you're just fine, cuz all you need is one genji or one mei popping ice walls
I'm inclined to agree.
When the open beta started like 90% of the players were brand new and I admit during the first day or two Bastion was crazy effective. Now though? I don't think it's the case anymore.
What I think happened is that Bastion gained a rep for being OP real quick and so a lot of people annoyed by him looked up guides and learned.
Now what I'm seeing is a round getting underway, people getting in to the fight, and partway through someone busts out a Bastion to devastating effect. After that surprise assault he ends up countered hard and fast and I don't see another Bastion for the rest of the round.
Typically that first "Surprise mutha'fuckas!" by Bastion is enough to cement him for potg.
But I rarely see that level of effectiveness repeat itself for the rest of the game.
Yes. I think some of the learning is done when people pick bastion themselves "because he is so op, I will surely own the other team"
Then they proceed to die repeatedly and notice how he can be countered
The first days of the open beta were full of Bastions complaining about Junkrat being OP because I could angle shots and hit Bastions that just sat there and took it instead of moving.
as I got better at bastion I'd always reposition every few kills
on hanamura at the last point I'd sit behind the pillar (which obscured about 1/3 of the point but that's okay) and I'd switch which pillar I was behind constantly, it was funny watching rockets and grenades fly to the wrong one because they couldnt see me unless they actually came into the room
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
Now folks are starting to use the Bastion + Reinhardt shield a lot more I'm noticing. That unfortunately takes the Genji counter out of the equation. But it also keeps that Reinhardt in a corner as well.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
Now folks are starting to use the Bastion + Reinhardt shield a lot more I'm noticing. That unfortunately takes the Genji counter out of the equation. But it also keeps that Reinhardt in a corner as well.
Nah Genji still works, he just goes with a more classic flanking maneuver and kills Bastion from behind. It's not as amazing, but with both Reinhardt and Bastion tied up in one spot and a very clear indicator of which direction they are covering it's easy enough to do.
Of course if they are really dumb about it they can set up on a balcony overlooking the spawn of our team. That would have been really irritating, had said balcony not had stair access. That early double kill was quite satisfying, especially since they didn't manage to kill any of our team.
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I Reinhardted a Roadhog right off the cliff in the starting area of Dorado, but I didn't get an elimination credit. Does that not count because I technically killed myself? Or can Roadhog pull himself places with his chain?
Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
You misunderstand the role of a pub stompers. If bastion were "fixed", it would probably be Thorbjörn. Then if that one was "fixed", the next character.
There will always be a "pub stomper" character as long as you have groups where some people simply refuse to switch characters and adapt.
I don't think that's true. As Milski said, there may be some characters with an edge vs pubs, but it doesn't mean they're at full pubstomper level. Looking at this thread the complaints are basically about bastion and widow maker... And if you look at bastion, he's basically a rapid-fire sniper who's as comfortable taking down an entire team at close range in seconds as he is firing at enemies that are so far away that they're barely visible. Reinhardt just makes him stupid.
Ran into a fun version of this last night. On whatever that Russian named level is.
They camped a Bastion protected by Reinhart in an alcove just outside the first spawn off the to side. Can't see it or shoot at it from the doorway but the minute you step outside you were gunned down instantly. Meanwhile the other 4 members of the team are at longer range just firing at anything coming out the doorways too.
Was really stupid and required a bunch of coordination and trial and error on my team of randos just to leave the spawn area. I think it took us like 4 minutes.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
In fact, I think bastion is pretty much the quintessential pubstomper that needs a rework: immensely frustrating and higher effort to counter than to play for newbies, bad in competitive. His design just doesn't seem good from either perspective.
To be blunt about this, Bastion is a perfect demonstration of how good the Heavy's design in TF2 is.
Overwatch struggles with having too many heroes being hard counters to each other, which leaves characters like McCree and Soldier-76 - who hard counter nobody and have no hard counters themselves - the most ideal for competitive teams.
If anything the "it's not used in competitive!" argument is actually demonstrating the opposite of what everyone here is using it for. Bastion is OP, but his hard counters are also necessarily OP at shutting him down. This leaves Overwatch in a place where character-switching is seen as the strategy by a number of medium-level players, leaving most of these players feeling that the game is not how you played so much as who you played; meanwhile pros take the groups that have the most synergy while having the least character-to-character hard counters (gamemode factors excepted).
To sort of riff on this idea, I think part of the issue at lower-level and his newer players is the whole "what character counters what" system is like completely opaque and most players there don't really do it because it gets rid of your ult charge.
Surprisingly for a Blizzard game I think the game is really not that accessible to new players. It doesn't teach you very well imo.
feels to me like at some point D. Va will get nerfed and Zarya will get buffed. I'm having a hard time going back to play Z-dawg now because D. Va is so much better
Except that they use bastion and reinhardt to lock down your entire team, then you get a genji to try to assassinate the bastion and it's a 4v1 because they have 4 other people besides bastion and reinhardt.
I mean, in most cases it really isn't that bad. It was just that one part of that map. I'll try to see if I can dig up where it was. There didn't appear to be any flanking options and bastion could cover all the entrances from the one position.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
edited May 2016
One of my favorite cheese moves is to put a Bastian on top of a cart with a Reinhart shielding and a mercy boosting him. You just ride that sucker home.
That_Guy on
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cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
feels to me like at some point D. Va will get nerfed and Zarya will get buffed. I'm having a hard time going back to play Z-dawg now because D. Va is so much better
Yeah, I think Zarya could use just a bit of a buff. They upped her base damage before charge boosts. But then nerfed her ally Barrier.
Right now she's great at staying on an objective. Especially if you can take a breather and let your massive shields recharge a bit.
But I think she needs just a bit more umph.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
You're near your spawn. Break the reinhardt shield. There's no way bastion can cover all of reinhardt's shield, and there's no way their team mates can punish you thoroughly without risking reprisal. Defender deaths that close to an attacker's spawn on a first control point are catastrophic.
If they have enough team mates being oppressive on your spawn, you can get a tracer or a genji to run by and start capping the point. If they have enough folks holding back to stop that, reinhardt can't hold very effectively against two folks breaking his shield.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Pharrah vs turrets is absolutely in favor of Pharrah, because even if they target her it takes such little time to sneak into LOS to let off a rocket that the turret does almost no damage. While you can fire rockets off faster than the turret can be healed.
Also, apparently this is a thing. True counter to bastion confirmed.
I'm not convinced that D.va needs a nerf... She gets burned down fast if you hit her right.
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+23
kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
D.va gets eaten alive by every character I play outside of narrow circumstances. Zarya shields on flankers in my face are awfully difficult to handle.
+1
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
i hate how dvas mech gun feels so much
it feels like shooting fkin noodles
+6
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Yeah out of all the characters I've thought were OP, called bullshit in a fit of rage, or thought were just plain good D.va has never been one of them.
I don't think she is bad or great, just solid.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
D.Va does 100 DPS on foot and 170DPS within ~10m in her mech. 10-20m is ~115DPS. 20m+ is 56DPS. And she never has to reload in the mech.
That's hardly "more damage".
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The misleading aspect though is that I do not thinkg in mech she can score headshots, but on foot she can?
If you can headshot in mech, it has to be nearly impossible to land them reliably at full dps. So that would tilt things on foot in favor of higher dps.
The misleading aspect though is that I do not thinkg in mech she can score headshots, but on foot she can?
If you can headshot in mech, it has to be nearly impossible to land them reliably at full dps. So that would tilt things on foot in favor of higher dps.
I'm not convinced that D.va needs a nerf... She gets burned down fast if you hit her right.
couldn't you say this about any tank though?
D. Va has high mobility, guns that don't require a reload, a shield that can block all projectiles for X seconds, and an ult that can clear the enemy team off of objectives. and on top of all of that, she gets 2 lives, forcing people to commit to you which frees up your teammates. Maybe she's just in a really good place and it's actually that Zarya needs buffing, but I feel like you can currently accomplish a lot more as D. Va.
Just my opinion after playing both characters for 2-3 hours a piece.
D.Va does 100 DPS on foot and 170DPS within ~10m in her mech. 10-20m is ~115DPS. 20m+ is 56DPS. And she never has to reload in the mech.
That's hardly "more damage".
Mech has a massive fire cone that prevents 100% headshots or hits. Her pistol is fast, has a huge hit box, and is very accurate.
The mech's spread of fire never grows, and is the same size as these circle crosshairs at any distance:
Within it's optimal range, that's really not a bad spread. The real penalty to the mech shotguns over the pistol is the massively reduced movement speed, not the damage or accuracy relative to the pistol.
I'm not convinced that D.va needs a nerf... She gets burned down fast if you hit her right.
couldn't you say this about any tank though?
D. Va has high mobility, guns that don't require a reload, a shield that can block all projectiles for X seconds, and an ult that can clear the enemy team off of objectives. and on top of all of that, she gets 2 lives, forcing people to commit to you which frees up your teammates. Maybe she's just in a really good place and it's actually that Zarya needs buffing, but I feel like you can currently accomplish a lot more as D. Va.
Just my opinion after playing both characters for 2-3 hours a piece.
Nah, she has a critical weakness - easiest headshots in game.
Apparently, Zarya's shields block all overkill damage + 1. Soo.. you can save the live of everyone being targeted for deletion.
That seems pretty strong, but hard to pull off
+1
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
edited May 2016
I actually think I don't really care for Zarya's charge mechanic. I think the cleanse and nigh invul you get from the barriers is enough to make them good to use. Balancing around the charage mechanic just means her base damage will always be kind of low. The charge also bleeds off so quickly that you rarely get any time with a decent charge anyway. It seems like a real relic to when the shields lasted longer than they do now and you were able to keep charge more reliably.
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Even just in the couple of days of open beta I've started seeing a lot less bastions, because people are already figuring out how to beat him or flank him. Blizzard shouldn't be making balance changes to fit a community that is 95% brand new to the game, because that's not going to keep being a thing for very long. It's already an issue that's fixing itself. If half your team knows how to hard counter bastion, then you're just fine, cuz all you need is one genji or one mei popping ice walls
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Yup, Torbjorn turrets cap out at 40m. Both Pharah and Widowmaker can easily outrange and drop them, even while Torbjorn is actively trying to repair it (probably kill Torb in the process). Alternatively if you can't get the range, Reinhardt + anybody, Winston, or Junkrat can take them out easily. Genji can do it as well if he has cover he can duck behind in between shots since the turret takes a brief moment to acquire a target, which is long enough for Genji to lob three shurikens. Genji can also outrange the turret since his shurikens have no falloff and fly straight. Deflection is not as useful though since the turret doesn't fire too quickly and it only lasts 2 seconds, it's good to finish off a turret sitting around 50% though.
The big thing is that just having two people is typically enough to kill a turret if they focus it. It can only acquire one target at a time and takes long enough to kill a target that a coordinated effort should be able to take it out.
Where the turret really shines is in areas where fighting is already breaking out and it can fire with impunity. That's why I like setting mine up to cover points where once the enemy engages the point, they are distracted either by my team, or by the objective they are trying to take. That's how you rack up a 30 kill streak.
Also don't be too far from your turret at any point, it's your buddy and he gets lonely.
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Turrets have enough range to hit pharah in most situations that she can hit them, so she still has to pop and shoot if the torb is either healing the turret or sniping her out of the air. It's a good counter but it isn't quite perfect.
But the fact that it instantly spins and acquires targets, you can point that thing at a wall and it would be just as effective it seems.
I'm inclined to agree.
When the open beta started like 90% of the players were brand new and I admit during the first day or two Bastion was crazy effective. Now though? I don't think it's the case anymore.
What I think happened is that Bastion gained a rep for being OP real quick and so a lot of people annoyed by him looked up guides and learned.
Now what I'm seeing is a round getting underway, people getting in to the fight, and partway through someone busts out a Bastion to devastating effect. After that surprise assault he ends up countered hard and fast and I don't see another Bastion for the rest of the round.
Typically that first "Surprise mutha'fuckas!" by Bastion is enough to cement him for potg.
But I rarely see that level of effectiveness repeat itself for the rest of the game.
I don't think it instantly spins, iirc there are a few frames of acquisition time.
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Yes. I think some of the learning is done when people pick bastion themselves "because he is so op, I will surely own the other team"
Then they proceed to die repeatedly and notice how he can be countered
as I got better at bastion I'd always reposition every few kills
on hanamura at the last point I'd sit behind the pillar (which obscured about 1/3 of the point but that's okay) and I'd switch which pillar I was behind constantly, it was funny watching rockets and grenades fly to the wrong one because they couldnt see me unless they actually came into the room
theres actually a bug where sometimes the person who gets hooked is positioned either behind or inside roadhogs model
i had been wondering why i was getting away from him so much and its just some fucked up repositioning shit its gr8
GET IN MAH BELLY
Nah Genji still works, he just goes with a more classic flanking maneuver and kills Bastion from behind. It's not as amazing, but with both Reinhardt and Bastion tied up in one spot and a very clear indicator of which direction they are covering it's easy enough to do.
Of course if they are really dumb about it they can set up on a balcony overlooking the spawn of our team. That would have been really irritating, had said balcony not had stair access. That early double kill was quite satisfying, especially since they didn't manage to kill any of our team.
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Ran into a fun version of this last night. On whatever that Russian named level is.
They camped a Bastion protected by Reinhart in an alcove just outside the first spawn off the to side. Can't see it or shoot at it from the doorway but the minute you step outside you were gunned down instantly. Meanwhile the other 4 members of the team are at longer range just firing at anything coming out the doorways too.
Was really stupid and required a bunch of coordination and trial and error on my team of randos just to leave the spawn area. I think it took us like 4 minutes.
a lucio potg had me as roadhog chaining him so far to the right that he ended up out of my line of sight and he knocked me into a pit.
grumble.
To sort of riff on this idea, I think part of the issue at lower-level and his newer players is the whole "what character counters what" system is like completely opaque and most players there don't really do it because it gets rid of your ult charge.
Surprisingly for a Blizzard game I think the game is really not that accessible to new players. It doesn't teach you very well imo.
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I mean, in most cases it really isn't that bad. It was just that one part of that map. I'll try to see if I can dig up where it was. There didn't appear to be any flanking options and bastion could cover all the entrances from the one position.
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Yeah, I think Zarya could use just a bit of a buff. They upped her base damage before charge boosts. But then nerfed her ally Barrier.
Right now she's great at staying on an objective. Especially if you can take a breather and let your massive shields recharge a bit.
But I think she needs just a bit more umph.
If they have enough team mates being oppressive on your spawn, you can get a tracer or a genji to run by and start capping the point. If they have enough folks holding back to stop that, reinhardt can't hold very effectively against two folks breaking his shield.
Also, apparently this is a thing. True counter to bastion confirmed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4iiatz/so_apparently_you_can_attach_junkrats_traps_and/
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it feels like shooting fkin noodles
I don't think she is bad or great, just solid.
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*outside of point blank
That's hardly "more damage".
If you can headshot in mech, it has to be nearly impossible to land them reliably at full dps. So that would tilt things on foot in favor of higher dps.
You can headshot in the mech.
Mech has a massive fire cone that prevents 100% headshots or hits. Her pistol is fast, has a huge hit box, and is very accurate.
couldn't you say this about any tank though?
D. Va has high mobility, guns that don't require a reload, a shield that can block all projectiles for X seconds, and an ult that can clear the enemy team off of objectives. and on top of all of that, she gets 2 lives, forcing people to commit to you which frees up your teammates. Maybe she's just in a really good place and it's actually that Zarya needs buffing, but I feel like you can currently accomplish a lot more as D. Va.
Just my opinion after playing both characters for 2-3 hours a piece.
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The mech's spread of fire never grows, and is the same size as these circle crosshairs at any distance:
Within it's optimal range, that's really not a bad spread. The real penalty to the mech shotguns over the pistol is the massively reduced movement speed, not the damage or accuracy relative to the pistol.
Nah, she has a critical weakness - easiest headshots in game.
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That seems pretty strong, but hard to pull off