This is the best Punisher because they don't portray what he's doing as cool or badass. He's a damaged human being who is doing something terrible.
Agree with the second sentence, not the first. It's pretty cool and badass, regardless. Every time DD or Karen or whoever is pleading with Frank to change his ways my reaction is "No, keep giving us more awesome ultraviolence."
thats fine but they aren't intentionally portraying the punisher as super awesome, thats something you're bringing to the show
He's certainly portrayed as very competent, within a defined range of skills. And of course the likability of a fictional character is determined more by agency than morality.
This is in no way a universal truth
I wouldn't say universal either, but certainly more common than not. You ever notice that villains are often substantially more popular than heroes? It's because they're typically driving forces, starting out much more actively.
That is a potential reason, yes.
But there are a lot of potential reasons as to why villains are (sometimes) more popular than heroes.
You really can't boil down decades of media studies to that.
Of course, my original post was too sweeping. Edited it a bit for added accuracy, thank you.
Upon finishing a second watch with Mrs. Chilla I think how you feel about this season is very, very dependent on how much you trust them to tie things together
because if I thought this was it I'd absolutely hate where Matt is at in his life and emotional state as an ending point, but I know it won't be
she however, was super pissed because she didn't know it would be continuing and when I explained that was accepting but still grumpy
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
+1
masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
They had basically gotten to the point that Karen finding out on her own would not have changed their relationship at all though
Matt keeping secrets was the problem, not the secret itself
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
They had basically gotten to the point that Karen finding out on her own would not have changed their relationship at all though
Matt keeping secrets was the problem, not the secret itself
Except they could get the same payoff by having Matt say "Yup. You figured it out. In done lying to you."
Having him just hand the answer to her when her whole character arc is about finding the truth and being really good at it is lame as heck for her
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
They had basically gotten to the point that Karen finding out on her own would not have changed their relationship at all though
Matt keeping secrets was the problem, not the secret itself
Except they could get the same payoff by having Matt say "Yup. You figured it out. In done lying to you."
Having him just hand the answer to her when her whole character arc is about finding the truth and being really good at it is lame as heck for her
dude finding out someone is lying to you and them copping to it AFTER is not the same as them admitting it [on a relationship, its a way different thing
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
They had basically gotten to the point that Karen finding out on her own would not have changed their relationship at all though
Matt keeping secrets was the problem, not the secret itself
She'd pretty much already figured it out by the time he told her. There are a couple of big tells that's show she's 99 percent of the way there. It's Matt finally admitting to her why he was lying.
she'd have found out herself theyd never speak again
I don't think So.
She would be really pissed, yeah
But she already knows Matt has some weird ass secrets and was lying through his teeth
But unlike Foggy when he found out, Karen really likes Daredevil and has been saved by him multiple times. Knowing that was Matt who put his life on the line for her more than once would mean a lot to her.
she'd have found out herself theyd never speak again
I don't think So.
She would be really pissed, yeah
But she already knows Matt has some weird ass secrets and was lying through his teeth
But unlike Foggy when he found out, Karen really likes Daredevil and has been saved by him multiple times. Knowing that was Matt who put his life on the line for her more than once would mean a lot to her.
I really don't think so
I think it was important for both of them it happened that way
I assumed she knew for a fact that Matt was Daredevil when he rescued her from the Hand in the last episode...but then she made it unclear with her comments to Foggy afterwards about the end of vigilantes in NYC, and then she did seem surprised by Matt's confession at the end.
Still, they have enough wiggle room that in the next season they could just say she had figured it out already, and really, having her figure it out but then Matt confesses before she gets to confront him about it is probably the best route for both characters.
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
They had basically gotten to the point that Karen finding out on her own would not have changed their relationship at all though
Matt keeping secrets was the problem, not the secret itself
Except they could get the same payoff by having Matt say "Yup. You figured it out. In done lying to you."
Having him just hand the answer to her when her whole character arc is about finding the truth and being really good at it is lame as heck for her
dude finding out someone is lying to you and them copping to it AFTER is not the same as them admitting it [on a relationship, its a way different thing
I never said it was? I just said they could get the same payoff.
Like
Using a real world example
I broke up with my ex because I wasnt feeling the spark that makes a relationship more than a friendship and hadn't been for a while. But she was In a fragile emotional state and I didn't want to hurt her or make it worse So I kept it up for longer than I should have so when I did end it it was pretty painful.
But then a few weeks later we talked and she said she got why I did what I did and said while it was still stupid and I shouldn't have done it, She forgave me and we parted amicably.
I don't see how Matt being honest for once after being confronted is an instant WE WILL NEVER SPEAK AGAIN deal breaker? Especially since Karen herself is still hiding her past and the fact that she killed Wesley from Matt?
0
masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
Karen was a better investigator than Matt for the entire season
When she drops the possibility he's in some kind of fight club, that pretty much destroyed any notion that she was being stupid about this in my mind
She could be a part of his life or not, and that was on him and not her
+2
SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
I assumed she knew for a fact that Matt was Daredevil when he rescued her from the Hand in the last episode...but then she made it unclear with her comments to Foggy afterwards about the end of vigilantes in NYC, and then she did seem surprised by Matt's confession at the end.
Still, they have enough wiggle room that in the next season they could just say she had figured it out already, and really, having her figure it out but then Matt confesses before she gets to confront him about it is probably the best route for both characters.
Yeah that's pretty much my read as well
She got the final pieces of the puzzle after she got rescued in the warehouse, her surprise at Matt's confession is just that. That he actually came out and admitted it to her. Both characters can move on from that position in a number of ways.
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Daredevil s2's very end
Karen discovering that Matt was Daredevil could have tied brilliantly with her feelings on Punisher's potential necessity earlier in the season.
+3
The JudgeThe Terwilliger CurvesRegistered Userregular
Finished up over the weekend.
S2 Likes
Everything involving the prison and Fisk.
Really came around on the new mask by the end of the season.
Nobu popping up out of nowhere. Audible "OH SHIT" when that happened.
Punisher was handled well. Not convinced a series with him is needed, but him showing up on other series would be fine.
S2 Dislikes
Odd writing/scripting that you pick up on while binge watching. If Elektra has no clue what she is, why was Stick semi-taunting her about Matt finding out? And if that was just meant to be 'you're a killer' vs. 'you're the Hand's secret weapon', I think Matt knew that one already.
The passage of time was weird. It wasn't until close to the end of the last ep that I reazlied we'd moved through, what, six months of time vs. maybe one or two?
If that much effort is put into fight choreography, I'd like to suggest not having those scenes as dark as they're shot.
That's twice now that the finale felt weak by comparison to the rest of the season. Again with the "get new piece of tech from Melvin, go fight Final Boss" aspect. And then Frank shows up to . . . what, shoot two or three ninjas and roll out? I mean, you gave the guy a freakin' minigun - why not have him mow down huge portions of the Hand's army and get chased off the roof by police helicopters, leaving the stragglers and Nobu vs. Elektra/DD?
'Uneven, but good' has been my reaction to all three Netflix series.
Cage making the jump to 'ALL of this kicked ass' would be great.
Last pint: Focal Banger / The Alchemist - Untappd: TheJudge_PDX
I assumed she knew for a fact that Matt was Daredevil when he rescued her from the Hand in the last episode...but then she made it unclear with her comments to Foggy afterwards about the end of vigilantes in NYC, and then she did seem surprised by Matt's confession at the end.
Still, they have enough wiggle room that in the next season they could just say she had figured it out already, and really, having her figure it out but then Matt confesses before she gets to confront him about it is probably the best route for both characters.
Yeah that's pretty much my read as well
She got the final pieces of the puzzle after she got rescued in the warehouse, her surprise at Matt's confession is just that. That he actually came out and admitted it to her. Both characters can move on from that position in a number of ways.
If this is the case I will be fine with it, but I'm skeptical.
I really like Karen growing into a hard hitting investigative reporter and having the mystery that has been right in front of her for 2 seasons just handed to her rubs me the wrong way a whole lot.
If she already figured it out and they are clear about that then I'm good.
Really came around on the new mask by the end of the season.
Nobu popping up out of nowhere. Audible "OH SHIT" when that happened.
Punisher was handled well. Not convinced a series with him is needed, but him showing up on other series would be fine.
S2 Dislikes
Odd writing/scripting that you pick up on while binge watching. If Elektra has no clue what she is, why was Stick semi-taunting her about Matt finding out? And if that was just meant to be 'you're a killer' vs. 'you're the Hand's secret weapon', I think Matt knew that one already.
The passage of time was weird. It wasn't until close to the end of the last ep that I reazlied we'd moved through, what, six months of time vs. maybe one or two?
If that much effort is put into fight choreography, I'd like to suggest not having those scenes as dark as they're shot.
That's twice now that the finale felt weak by comparison to the rest of the season. Again with the "get new piece of tech from Melvin, go fight Final Boss" aspect. And then Frank shows up to . . . what, shoot two or three ninjas and roll out? I mean, you gave the guy a freakin' minigun - why not have him mow down huge portions of the Hand's army and get chased off the roof by police helicopters, leaving the stragglers and Nobu vs. Elektra/DD?
'Uneven, but good' has been my reaction to all three Netflix series.
Cage making the jump to 'ALL of this kicked ass' would be great.
"Odd writing/scripting that you pick up on while binge watching. If Elektra has no clue what she is, why was Stick semi-taunting her about Matt finding out? And if that was just meant to be 'you're a killer' vs. 'you're the Hand's secret weapon', I think Matt knew that one already."
For this one, I took it to mean that Matt didn't know that Elektra was Stick's personal assassin and that they only met because Stick arranged for her to shadow him. He knew she was capable of killing, but I don't it clicked that she was a weapon in Stick's war with the Hand.
Upon finishing a second watch with Mrs. Chilla I think how you feel about this season is very, very dependent on how much you trust them to tie things together
because if I thought this was it I'd absolutely hate where Matt is at in his life and emotional state as an ending point, but I know it won't be
she however, was super pissed because she didn't know it would be continuing and when I explained that was accepting but still grumpy
I agree with Mrs. Chilla, I am also grumpy at where the season ended, even knowing there will be more.
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
She's a shockingly good investigator when she's specifically investigating a thing that she has the files and paperwork for. She isn't just going to look at Matt and go "Oh god, you're Daredevil aren't you?" apropos of nothing.
+1
The JudgeThe Terwilliger CurvesRegistered Userregular
"Odd writing/scripting that you pick up on while binge watching. If Elektra has no clue what she is, why was Stick semi-taunting her about Matt finding out? And if that was just meant to be 'you're a killer' vs. 'you're the Hand's secret weapon', I think Matt knew that one already."
For this one, I took it to mean that Matt didn't know that Elektra was Stick's personal assassin and that they only met because Stick arranged for her to shadow him. He knew she was capable of killing, but I don't it clicked that she was a weapon in Stick's war with the Hand.
Okay, that way of looking at it makes a bit more sense.
Last pint: Focal Banger / The Alchemist - Untappd: TheJudge_PDX
It's pretty endearing the few times Frank checks someone into the "good guy" category.
Suddenly he goes from psycho murderer to "Yes ma'am, no ma'am, thank you ma'am" polite military mode.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
+19
masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
Yeah, that kind of thing actually happens pretty often in foreign entertainment. They don't necessarily use cowboys but there are a lot of stereotypical street gangs or weird henchmen in suits and sunglasses.
David_TA fashion yes-man is no good to me.Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered Userregular
Would anyone be surprised if such a show existed?
Since I just finished S2, I'll just say that pretty much every part of it scratched a particular itch in my brain marked "Frank Miller's Daredevil" and it's really weird to feel positive about a comic adaptation of a Frank Miller book.
Posts
Of course, my original post was too sweeping. Edited it a bit for added accuracy, thank you.
Give that scene all the awards
because if I thought this was it I'd absolutely hate where Matt is at in his life and emotional state as an ending point, but I know it won't be
she however, was super pissed because she didn't know it would be continuing and when I explained that was accepting but still grumpy
Her entire role in the series had been growing into the shockingly good investigator she became by the end of Season 2 and having THE answer just handed to her is way lamer than acting on her suspicions of Matt and figuring it out and confronting him about.
Like
It feels like a huge cop out, honestly.
Matt keeping secrets was the problem, not the secret itself
I think it had to go down that way
if
Having him just hand the answer to her when her whole character arc is about finding the truth and being really good at it is lame as heck for her
She would be really pissed, yeah
But she already knows Matt has some weird ass secrets and was lying through his teeth
But unlike Foggy when he found out, Karen really likes Daredevil and has been saved by him multiple times. Knowing that was Matt who put his life on the line for her more than once would mean a lot to her.
I think it was important for both of them it happened that way
Still, they have enough wiggle room that in the next season they could just say she had figured it out already, and really, having her figure it out but then Matt confesses before she gets to confront him about it is probably the best route for both characters.
Like
Using a real world example
I broke up with my ex because I wasnt feeling the spark that makes a relationship more than a friendship and hadn't been for a while. But she was In a fragile emotional state and I didn't want to hurt her or make it worse So I kept it up for longer than I should have so when I did end it it was pretty painful.
But then a few weeks later we talked and she said she got why I did what I did and said while it was still stupid and I shouldn't have done it, She forgave me and we parted amicably.
I don't see how Matt being honest for once after being confronted is an instant WE WILL NEVER SPEAK AGAIN deal breaker? Especially since Karen herself is still hiding her past and the fact that she killed Wesley from Matt?
When she drops the possibility he's in some kind of fight club, that pretty much destroyed any notion that she was being stupid about this in my mind
She could be a part of his life or not, and that was on him and not her
Yeah that's pretty much my read as well
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
S2 Likes
Really came around on the new mask by the end of the season.
Nobu popping up out of nowhere. Audible "OH SHIT" when that happened.
Punisher was handled well. Not convinced a series with him is needed, but him showing up on other series would be fine.
S2 Dislikes
The passage of time was weird. It wasn't until close to the end of the last ep that I reazlied we'd moved through, what, six months of time vs. maybe one or two?
If that much effort is put into fight choreography, I'd like to suggest not having those scenes as dark as they're shot.
That's twice now that the finale felt weak by comparison to the rest of the season. Again with the "get new piece of tech from Melvin, go fight Final Boss" aspect. And then Frank shows up to . . . what, shoot two or three ninjas and roll out? I mean, you gave the guy a freakin' minigun - why not have him mow down huge portions of the Hand's army and get chased off the roof by police helicopters, leaving the stragglers and Nobu vs. Elektra/DD?
'Uneven, but good' has been my reaction to all three Netflix series.
Cage making the jump to 'ALL of this kicked ass' would be great.
I really like Karen growing into a hard hitting investigative reporter and having the mystery that has been right in front of her for 2 seasons just handed to her rubs me the wrong way a whole lot.
If she already figured it out and they are clear about that then I'm good.
For this one, I took it to mean that Matt didn't know that Elektra was Stick's personal assassin and that they only met because Stick arranged for her to shadow him. He knew she was capable of killing, but I don't it clicked that she was a weapon in Stick's war with the Hand.
I agree with Mrs. Chilla, I am also grumpy at where the season ended, even knowing there will be more.
Okay, that way of looking at it makes a bit more sense.
What does cock daft mean? British euphemism I've never heard.
They're all pretty much transplanted from a traditional action movie
I'm assuming when you're all dumb in the head cuz you're horny
He was thinking with the wrong head.
So, status quo? Gotcha.
Suddenly he goes from psycho murderer to "Yes ma'am, no ma'am, thank you ma'am" polite military mode.
It's so beautiful.
To be fair, early Spider-Man generally has Montana as a villain, so yah, this does happen.
so its not like stereotypes only happen one place
Does it count if the cowboys in question also do some 3rd grade version of karate? Because that's every episode of Walker Texas Ranger.
I very much doubt it. That was definitely just a show for Matt.
Steam ID - VeldrinD | SS Post | Wishlist
Since I just finished S2, I'll just say that pretty much every part of it scratched a particular itch in my brain marked "Frank Miller's Daredevil" and it's really weird to feel positive about a comic adaptation of a Frank Miller book.