GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.
Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
who does he kill in the dark knight
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
So speaking of Batman....Comixology has Hush and TDKR on sale for $6 each. Should I finally read them or follow through on spending my weekly digital comic budget on Bravest Warriors collections?
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Iron Man kills way to many people in his films. He gets away with it because they're terrorists, or working with terrorists, but man does his rack up a body count.
The fucking Hulk has a lower body count than Iron Man.
well, it's easier to claim that people in tanks getting pummeled by giant fists are still alive, while Iron Man has auto-headshot bullets.
That is true, but it had gravitas (it was the climax of the movie) and led to him giving up his career as Batman for a mustache-growing amount of years
Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.
I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.
It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.
Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!
Even Pepper has a body count - she killed the main villains in Iron Man 1 & 3.
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.
I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.
It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.
Spider-man is huge about not killing people. He feels guilty as shit about everything he does.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think you guys are missing the part where I say it's not my favorite interpretation.
And pretty sure Batman has killed in practically all of his movies save The Dark Knight maybe?
edit-and the original Batman?
He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.
He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)
He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)
So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The AV Club has a Spoiler Space article up, wherein the ending of the BvS:DoJ movie is 100% spoiled, so don't click that if you don't want to read about it. I won't even talk about it in spoiler tags, I'll just say that the tiny bit of desire I had to see this movie just farted in its own mouth, ran into a wall, then staggered off a cliff.
You kind of can't talk about it in spoiler tags right now.
Iron Man kills way to many people in his films. He gets away with it because they're terrorists, or working with terrorists, but man does his rack up a body count.
The fucking Hulk has a lower body count than Iron Man.
True, but he was kinda put in a situation where he had no choice.
Sometimes, but notalways. I mean off the top of my head
-The cave terrorists
-Ghomera terrorists
-Stane (via Pepper)
-Missile Helicopters
-Mansion Grunts (With a handgun, even!)
-Extremis Soldiers
He also tries, and fails, to kill Killian.
Some those are self defense; others are in the defense of others; but that's still a hell of a body count.
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.
Regardless of any of that
It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again
Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.
I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.
It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.
I don't mean this to sound aggressive or anything, but yeah I know. Like I said, it's not my favorite interpretation. But even Batman and Superman killed in their earliest days. The no killing stuff solidified much later (reaction to comics code/moral panic stuff I think? I need to double check that) And I much prefer they don't kill. But it is possible for me to have a good film where they have killed. It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.
This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.
Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!
DD is about what it means to be a hero, especially a vigilante, and what rampant killing accomplishes on your own soul and those around you.
Let's be clear: Frank ambushes the shit out of people, shoots them unprovoked, and all around enters civil areas wracking up a huge body count.
In Iron Man's first movie, he kills a ton of people. In a war zone. Who were soldiers.
That's why I was being more flippant about it. It's not a point that actually bothers me.
Gustav on
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.
Regardless of any of that
It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again
that moment? I mean I know you don't like the movie
it's just a surprising straw to break the camel's back to me, within context
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.
Regardless of any of that
It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again
I mean
Technically yeah he kills him but that is the least unjustified way to do it. If Batman tries his hardest to save everyone and can't grab the villain in time and he plummets to his doom well
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GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I think you guys are missing the part where I say it's not my favorite interpretation.
And pretty sure Batman has killed in practically all of his movies save The Dark Knight maybe?
edit-and the original Batman?
He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.
He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)
He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)
So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.
The Batwing totally machine guns people to death in that truck in DKR.
So speaking of Batman....Comixology has Hush and TDKR on sale for $6 each. Should I finally read them or follow through on spending my weekly digital comic budget on Bravest Warriors collections?
Personally, I wouldn't recommend Hush or TDKR.
Hush has Jim Lee's art and is kind of a Who's Who of Gotham to new readers (of the time, at least) as it cycles through most of the major cast (with the notable exception of Cassandra Cain where this was the first major event since her inception that she was left out of, reportedly because of either Didio or Lee's hate for the character, depending on who you ask). However, the mystery is kind of garbage and isn't even actually resolved at the end of the story, and the character of Hush was used better in other stories (though not for a long time, first he had to spend a year or two in a terrible run of Gotham Knights where they tried to drag out the mystery further).
TDKR is notable for helping the general public realize that Batman wasn't like Adam West (though comic readers had already known that since the 70s thanks to a variety of other writers), and for possibly having the only case of a female character created by Frank Miller not treated as or portrayed as a prostitute (in fact, when shown the original sketches for Carrie Kelly's Robin outfit, he went so far as asking for them to be made more conservative). However, it's not a particularly good match for how most of the characters are generally portrayed, which has created some problems as people who have that as their primary exposure to the characters seem to desperately want them to be that.
The main distinction is if the characters define themselves as warriors/soldiers or crimefighters.
It's harder to justify killing when you're fighting crime, because the police exists and they (should) have strict rules about it, it's a last resort, street-level policing is about putting people behind bars and not in the morgue, etc. This is where Batman and Daredevil fall.
Characters that are soldiers or warriors, like Captain America or Wonder Woman, are allowed to kill and are usually put more in scenarios where a war/invasion/spy ops is going on and that justifies it.
Superman's rule is there because if Superman isn't shy about killing then everybody's fucked. And also Superman is supposed to be better than everyone.
Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.
I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.
It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.
I don't mean this to sound aggressive or anything, but yeah I know. Like I said, it's not my favorite interpretation. But even Batman and Superman killed in their earliest days. The no killing stuff solidified much later (reaction to comics code/moral panic stuff I think? I need to double check that) And I much prefer they don't kill. But it is possible for me to have a good film where they have killed. It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.
Regardless of any of that
It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again
that moment? I mean I know you don't like the movie
it's just a surprising straw to break the camel's back to me, within context
Pretty much, yeah
More than any other superhero (to me, at least) Batman does not kill
That is a line he will never cross, he will always find a better way to do things
The fact that he killed my second favorite Batman villain in that moment was just icing on the cake
That only states why Chris Sims doesn't like that Batman killed in his early days. It doesn't invalidate the fact that he did.
And like I said, I don't prefer a Batman that kills. I'm not making an argument that I think he should. Just that you can still make movies where he does and they can still be good. With Batman, it's actually happened. And hence I don't believe it is as core to his character as other people here do.
I think you guys are missing the part where I say it's not my favorite interpretation.
And pretty sure Batman has killed in practically all of his movies save The Dark Knight maybe?
edit-and the original Batman?
He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.
He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)
He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)
So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.
The Batwing totally machine guns people to death in that truck in DKR.
Yeah he machine guns the driver to death and it careens off of an overpass, causing Talia to overact.
+2
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I also don't really like nerd absolutism which is what Chris Sims primarily deals in.
+7
AtomicTofuShe's a straight-up supervillain, yoRegistered Userregular
It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.
Except Spidey. Spidey doesn't kill.
So you're willing to have that line for Spider-man but not for Batman or Superman?
Did you know that Spider-man has killed before too? And as far as I know, unlike Batman and Superman, his weren't erased from continuity (at least officially, unofficially they'll probably never be brought up again so are functionally non-canon*). Does that make it's acceptable to have stories where Spider-man kills?
*With the notable exception of Green Goblin's original death which still seems to be canon (except a few decades later they retcon'd that it didn't actually kill him, but the event itself still happened). Spidey is just as culpable for that death as some of the ones credited to Batman considering he knew the Glider was coming and what would happen when he moved out of it's way instead of catching or diverting it.
Heck, back in the 80s around the time of the original Hobgoblin mystery, Spider-man killed a regular woman because he punched her too hard (granted, she snuck up behind him and set off his spider sense during a fight with Wolverine so he turned around and punched hard enough to knock out someone with an adamantium skeleton). That happened, so maybe the "no killing" isn't core to his character either? At least, based on what you're saying.
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GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I also don't really like nerd absolutism which is what Chris Sims primarily deals in.
I really want to give a full response to this but I don't have time right now so I appologize for narrowing the scope here but about Batmans early years:
At the same time that batman killed several other core aspects were missing from his character. His tragic backstory wouldn't be added for five issues and it wouldn't exist in its complete form until after the comic spelling out Batmans code. His rich socialite status, his double life persona, his vast team of allies including Alfred.
If Batman's one rule is not inherent to his character because he once existed without it than none of these aspects would seem to be inherent to his character.
Posts
Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!
Harvey Dent
well, it's easier to claim that people in tanks getting pummeled by giant fists are still alive, while Iron Man has auto-headshot bullets.
It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.
DD is about what it means to be a hero, especially a vigilante, and what rampant killing accomplishes on your own soul and those around you.
Let's be clear: Frank ambushes the shit out of people, shoots them unprovoked, and all around enters civil areas wracking up a huge body count.
In Iron Man's first movie, he kills a ton of people. In a war zone. Who were soldiers.
Even Pepper has a body count - she killed the main villains in Iron Man 1 & 3.
oh, well, yeah
that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy
Spider-man is huge about not killing people. He feels guilty as shit about everything he does.
He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.
He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)
He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)
So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.
And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.
You kind of can't talk about it in spoiler tags right now.
Edit: whoops that was 10 minutes ago.
Sometimes, but notalways. I mean off the top of my head
-The cave terrorists
-Ghomera terrorists
-Stane (via Pepper)
-Missile Helicopters
-Mansion Grunts (With a handgun, even!)
-Extremis Soldiers
He also tries, and fails, to kill Killian.
Some those are self defense; others are in the defense of others; but that's still a hell of a body count.
Regardless of any of that
It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again
Sadly the first is currently out of print.
I don't mean this to sound aggressive or anything, but yeah I know. Like I said, it's not my favorite interpretation. But even Batman and Superman killed in their earliest days. The no killing stuff solidified much later (reaction to comics code/moral panic stuff I think? I need to double check that) And I much prefer they don't kill. But it is possible for me to have a good film where they have killed. It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.
Except Spidey. Spidey doesn't kill.
That's why I was being more flippant about it. It's not a point that actually bothers me.
that moment? I mean I know you don't like the movie
it's just a surprising straw to break the camel's back to me, within context
I mean
Technically yeah he kills him but that is the least unjustified way to do it. If Batman tries his hardest to save everyone and can't grab the villain in time and he plummets to his doom well
The Batwing totally machine guns people to death in that truck in DKR.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend Hush or TDKR.
Hush has Jim Lee's art and is kind of a Who's Who of Gotham to new readers (of the time, at least) as it cycles through most of the major cast (with the notable exception of Cassandra Cain where this was the first major event since her inception that she was left out of, reportedly because of either Didio or Lee's hate for the character, depending on who you ask). However, the mystery is kind of garbage and isn't even actually resolved at the end of the story, and the character of Hush was used better in other stories (though not for a long time, first he had to spend a year or two in a terrible run of Gotham Knights where they tried to drag out the mystery further).
TDKR is notable for helping the general public realize that Batman wasn't like Adam West (though comic readers had already known that since the 70s thanks to a variety of other writers), and for possibly having the only case of a female character created by Frank Miller not treated as or portrayed as a prostitute (in fact, when shown the original sketches for Carrie Kelly's Robin outfit, he went so far as asking for them to be made more conservative). However, it's not a particularly good match for how most of the characters are generally portrayed, which has created some problems as people who have that as their primary exposure to the characters seem to desperately want them to be that.
It's harder to justify killing when you're fighting crime, because the police exists and they (should) have strict rules about it, it's a last resort, street-level policing is about putting people behind bars and not in the morgue, etc. This is where Batman and Daredevil fall.
Characters that are soldiers or warriors, like Captain America or Wonder Woman, are allowed to kill and are usually put more in scenarios where a war/invasion/spy ops is going on and that justifies it.
Superman's rule is there because if Superman isn't shy about killing then everybody's fucked. And also Superman is supposed to be better than everyone.
The "batman killed in his early days" argument is a really bad one.
http://comicsalliance.com/batman-kills/
Pretty much, yeah
More than any other superhero (to me, at least) Batman does not kill
That is a line he will never cross, he will always find a better way to do things
The fact that he killed my second favorite Batman villain in that moment was just icing on the cake
That only states why Chris Sims doesn't like that Batman killed in his early days. It doesn't invalidate the fact that he did.
And like I said, I don't prefer a Batman that kills. I'm not making an argument that I think he should. Just that you can still make movies where he does and they can still be good. With Batman, it's actually happened. And hence I don't believe it is as core to his character as other people here do.
Yeah he machine guns the driver to death and it careens off of an overpass, causing Talia to overact.
Still The Best 1993
Steam
So you're willing to have that line for Spider-man but not for Batman or Superman?
Did you know that Spider-man has killed before too? And as far as I know, unlike Batman and Superman, his weren't erased from continuity (at least officially, unofficially they'll probably never be brought up again so are functionally non-canon*). Does that make it's acceptable to have stories where Spider-man kills?
*With the notable exception of Green Goblin's original death which still seems to be canon (except a few decades later they retcon'd that it didn't actually kill him, but the event itself still happened). Spidey is just as culpable for that death as some of the ones credited to Batman considering he knew the Glider was coming and what would happen when he moved out of it's way instead of catching or diverting it.
Heck, back in the 80s around the time of the original Hobgoblin mystery, Spider-man killed a regular woman because he punched her too hard (granted, she snuck up behind him and set off his spider sense during a fight with Wolverine so he turned around and punched hard enough to knock out someone with an adamantium skeleton). That happened, so maybe the "no killing" isn't core to his character either? At least, based on what you're saying.
I really want to give a full response to this but I don't have time right now so I appologize for narrowing the scope here but about Batmans early years:
At the same time that batman killed several other core aspects were missing from his character. His tragic backstory wouldn't be added for five issues and it wouldn't exist in its complete form until after the comic spelling out Batmans code. His rich socialite status, his double life persona, his vast team of allies including Alfred.
If Batman's one rule is not inherent to his character because he once existed without it than none of these aspects would seem to be inherent to his character.
I
....okie dokie
Well, at least you're honest about being a hypocrite in this scenario, but it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to talk about it.
That's fair
I mean, I do not care if Superman kills, personally
And that's probably largely because the character I identify with most in Superman comics is Lex Luthor