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[Superheroes] By the hoary hosts of Hoggoth, what a savings.

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    GustavGustav Friend of Goats Somewhere in the OzarksRegistered User regular
    This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.

    Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!

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    Theodore FlooseveltTheodore Floosevelt proud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelo dorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered User regular
    who does he kill in the dark knight

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    StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

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    Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    So speaking of Batman....Comixology has Hush and TDKR on sale for $6 each. Should I finally read them or follow through on spending my weekly digital comic budget on Bravest Warriors collections?

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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Spoiler tags are busted right now anyway.

    Anywho, if I'm being fully honest

    Iron Man kills way to many people in his films. He gets away with it because they're terrorists, or working with terrorists, but man does his rack up a body count.

    The fucking Hulk has a lower body count than Iron Man.

    well, it's easier to claim that people in tanks getting pummeled by giant fists are still alive, while Iron Man has auto-headshot bullets.

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    TairuTairu Registered User regular
    That is true, but it had gravitas (it was the climax of the movie) and led to him giving up his career as Batman for a mustache-growing amount of years

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    DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.

    I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.

    It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.

    Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!

    DD is about what it means to be a hero, especially a vigilante, and what rampant killing accomplishes on your own soul and those around you.

    Let's be clear: Frank ambushes the shit out of people, shoots them unprovoked, and all around enters civil areas wracking up a huge body count.

    In Iron Man's first movie, he kills a ton of people. In a war zone. Who were soldiers.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    ChallChall Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.

    Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!

    Even Pepper has a body count - she killed the main villains in Iron Man 1 & 3.

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    Theodore FlooseveltTheodore Floosevelt proud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelo dorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

    oh, well, yeah

    that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Gustav wrote: »
    Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.

    I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.

    It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.

    Spider-man is huge about not killing people. He feels guilty as shit about everything he does.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    I think you guys are missing the part where I say it's not my favorite interpretation.

    And pretty sure Batman has killed in practically all of his movies save The Dark Knight maybe?

    edit-and the original Batman?

    He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.

    He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)

    He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)

    So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

    oh, well, yeah

    that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy

    And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    Make batman travel back in time to shoot his own parents

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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    edited March 2016
    Narbus wrote: »
    The AV Club has a Spoiler Space article up, wherein the ending of the BvS:DoJ movie is 100% spoiled, so don't click that if you don't want to read about it. I won't even talk about it in spoiler tags, I'll just say that the tiny bit of desire I had to see this movie just farted in its own mouth, ran into a wall, then staggered off a cliff.

    You kind of can't talk about it in spoiler tags right now.

    Edit: whoops that was 10 minutes ago.

    OmnipotentBagel on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    Spoiler tags are busted right now anyway.

    Anywho, if I'm being fully honest

    Iron Man kills way to many people in his films. He gets away with it because they're terrorists, or working with terrorists, but man does his rack up a body count.

    The fucking Hulk has a lower body count than Iron Man.

    True, but he was kinda put in a situation where he had no choice.

    Sometimes, but notalways. I mean off the top of my head
    -The cave terrorists
    -Ghomera terrorists
    -Stane (via Pepper)
    -Missile Helicopters
    -Mansion Grunts (With a handgun, even!)
    -Extremis Soldiers

    He also tries, and fails, to kill Killian.

    Some those are self defense; others are in the defense of others; but that's still a hell of a body count.

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    StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

    oh, well, yeah

    that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy

    And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.

    Regardless of any of that

    It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Amazon has Hickman's second FF omnibus at $59.20. It retails for 125.

    Sadly the first is currently out of print.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    GustavGustav Friend of Goats Somewhere in the OzarksRegistered User regular
    edited March 2016
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Gustav wrote: »
    Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.

    I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.

    It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.

    I don't mean this to sound aggressive or anything, but yeah I know. Like I said, it's not my favorite interpretation. But even Batman and Superman killed in their earliest days. The no killing stuff solidified much later (reaction to comics code/moral panic stuff I think? I need to double check that) And I much prefer they don't kill. But it is possible for me to have a good film where they have killed. It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.

    Except Spidey. Spidey doesn't kill.
    Gustav wrote: »
    This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.

    Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!

    DD is about what it means to be a hero, especially a vigilante, and what rampant killing accomplishes on your own soul and those around you.

    Let's be clear: Frank ambushes the shit out of people, shoots them unprovoked, and all around enters civil areas wracking up a huge body count.

    In Iron Man's first movie, he kills a ton of people. In a war zone. Who were soldiers.

    That's why I was being more flippant about it. It's not a point that actually bothers me.

    Gustav on
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    Theodore FlooseveltTheodore Floosevelt proud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelo dorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Straightzi wrote: »
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

    oh, well, yeah

    that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy

    And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.

    Regardless of any of that

    It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again

    that moment? I mean I know you don't like the movie

    it's just a surprising straw to break the camel's back to me, within context

    f2ojmwh3geue.png
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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Straightzi wrote: »
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

    oh, well, yeah

    that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy

    And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.

    Regardless of any of that

    It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again

    I mean

    Technically yeah he kills him but that is the least unjustified way to do it. If Batman tries his hardest to save everyone and can't grab the villain in time and he plummets to his doom well

    Quire.jpg
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    GustavGustav Friend of Goats Somewhere in the OzarksRegistered User regular
    edited March 2016
    SimBen wrote: »
    Gustav wrote: »
    I think you guys are missing the part where I say it's not my favorite interpretation.

    And pretty sure Batman has killed in practically all of his movies save The Dark Knight maybe?

    edit-and the original Batman?

    He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.

    He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)

    He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)

    So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.

    The Batwing totally machine guns people to death in that truck in DKR.

    Gustav on
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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    So speaking of Batman....Comixology has Hush and TDKR on sale for $6 each. Should I finally read them or follow through on spending my weekly digital comic budget on Bravest Warriors collections?

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend Hush or TDKR.

    Hush has Jim Lee's art and is kind of a Who's Who of Gotham to new readers (of the time, at least) as it cycles through most of the major cast (with the notable exception of Cassandra Cain where this was the first major event since her inception that she was left out of, reportedly because of either Didio or Lee's hate for the character, depending on who you ask). However, the mystery is kind of garbage and isn't even actually resolved at the end of the story, and the character of Hush was used better in other stories (though not for a long time, first he had to spend a year or two in a terrible run of Gotham Knights where they tried to drag out the mystery further).

    TDKR is notable for helping the general public realize that Batman wasn't like Adam West (though comic readers had already known that since the 70s thanks to a variety of other writers), and for possibly having the only case of a female character created by Frank Miller not treated as or portrayed as a prostitute (in fact, when shown the original sketches for Carrie Kelly's Robin outfit, he went so far as asking for them to be made more conservative). However, it's not a particularly good match for how most of the characters are generally portrayed, which has created some problems as people who have that as their primary exposure to the characters seem to desperately want them to be that.

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    SimBenSimBen Hodor? Hodor Hodor.Registered User regular
    The main distinction is if the characters define themselves as warriors/soldiers or crimefighters.

    It's harder to justify killing when you're fighting crime, because the police exists and they (should) have strict rules about it, it's a last resort, street-level policing is about putting people behind bars and not in the morgue, etc. This is where Batman and Daredevil fall.

    Characters that are soldiers or warriors, like Captain America or Wonder Woman, are allowed to kill and are usually put more in scenarios where a war/invasion/spy ops is going on and that justifies it.

    Superman's rule is there because if Superman isn't shy about killing then everybody's fucked. And also Superman is supposed to be better than everyone.

    sig.gif
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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Gustav wrote: »
    Honestly. I don't particularly care if they kill. It's not my favorite interpretation. But if you wrap a good movie around it, then whatever.

    I mean Avengers are over there murdering the shit out of Hydra goons. So it's not like the general movie audience is particular perturbed by heroes killing.

    It's a defining trait for a handful of characters. Batman, Superman and Daredevil have a 'do not kill' policy, and that's a huge part of their characters. And in particular, Batman doesn't use guns. No one's saying that stuff as a generalization of all superheros.

    I don't mean this to sound aggressive or anything, but yeah I know. Like I said, it's not my favorite interpretation. But even Batman and Superman killed in their earliest days. The no killing stuff solidified much later (reaction to comics code/moral panic stuff I think? I need to double check that) And I much prefer they don't kill. But it is possible for me to have a good film where they have killed. It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.

    Except Spidey. Spidey doesn't kill.
    Gustav wrote: »
    This isn't a point that actually bothers me, but I do find it amusing.

    Daredevil s2 is all about whether or not you can be hero if you kill. And Iron Man is like, I shot a guy with a missile!

    DD is about what it means to be a hero, especially a vigilante, and what rampant killing accomplishes on your own soul and those around you.

    Let's be clear: Frank ambushes the shit out of people, shoots them unprovoked, and all around enters civil areas wracking up a huge body count.

    In Iron Man's first movie, he kills a ton of people. In a war zone. Who were soldiers.

    That's why I was being more flippant about it. It's not a point that actually bothers me.

    The "batman killed in his early days" argument is a really bad one.

    http://comicsalliance.com/batman-kills/

    Quire.jpg
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    It's frustrating when a media itself pushes the no kill rule and then flippantly breaks the rule that it decided was important

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    StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Straightzi wrote: »
    who does he kill in the dark knight

    Harvey Dent

    oh, well, yeah

    that was pretty impactful to the character, and it wasn't even a liam neeson technicality no down boo-over type kill, it was a last-ditch effort by a gutshot batman trying to save a little boy

    And also he literally gave up on being Batman the moment afterwards.

    Regardless of any of that

    It immediately changed it from a Batman movie that I was watching to a Batman movie that I never wanted to see again

    that moment? I mean I know you don't like the movie

    it's just a surprising straw to break the camel's back to me, within context

    Pretty much, yeah

    More than any other superhero (to me, at least) Batman does not kill

    That is a line he will never cross, he will always find a better way to do things

    The fact that he killed my second favorite Batman villain in that moment was just icing on the cake

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    The avengers never fight street level common criminals, it's always militarized terrorists or aliens or robuts

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    GustavGustav Friend of Goats Somewhere in the OzarksRegistered User regular
    edited March 2016

    The "batman killed in his early days" argument is a really bad one.

    http://comicsalliance.com/batman-kills/

    That only states why Chris Sims doesn't like that Batman killed in his early days. It doesn't invalidate the fact that he did.

    And like I said, I don't prefer a Batman that kills. I'm not making an argument that I think he should. Just that you can still make movies where he does and they can still be good. With Batman, it's actually happened. And hence I don't believe it is as core to his character as other people here do.

    Gustav on
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    CenoCeno pizza time Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    SimBen wrote: »
    Gustav wrote: »
    I think you guys are missing the part where I say it's not my favorite interpretation.

    And pretty sure Batman has killed in practically all of his movies save The Dark Knight maybe?

    edit-and the original Batman?

    He sort of kills Two-Face in Dark Knight, too.

    He doesn't kill anyone in Rises because Catwoman bullshittily takes it out of his hands, and he "doesn't" kill Ra's in Begins, he only sabotages the train he's on and lets it crash without saving him (so yes, he totally kills him)

    He kills people in all four 90s movies (or at least the two Tim Burton ones?)

    So yeah, even though Nolan came the closest, nobody's yet put a good version of Batman on screen. They put a character that looks like Batman on screen and in some cases in good movies, yes.

    The Batwing totally machine guns people to death in that truck in DKR.

    Yeah he machine guns the driver to death and it careens off of an overpass, causing Talia to overact.

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    GustavGustav Friend of Goats Somewhere in the OzarksRegistered User regular
    I also don't really like nerd absolutism which is what Chris Sims primarily deals in.

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    AtomicTofuAtomicTofu She's a straight-up supervillain, yo Registered User regular
    Mask of the Phantasm

    Still The Best 1993

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    CenoCeno pizza time Registered User regular
    Batman just thinks they're sleeping

    https://youtu.be/1byycwl8qgc

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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    It's an unpopular notion, but I don't think the no-killing thing is AS important to these characters as other aspects of them. And I'd wager that's true with general film audiences as well.

    Except Spidey. Spidey doesn't kill.

    So you're willing to have that line for Spider-man but not for Batman or Superman?

    Did you know that Spider-man has killed before too? And as far as I know, unlike Batman and Superman, his weren't erased from continuity (at least officially, unofficially they'll probably never be brought up again so are functionally non-canon*). Does that make it's acceptable to have stories where Spider-man kills?

    *With the notable exception of Green Goblin's original death which still seems to be canon (except a few decades later they retcon'd that it didn't actually kill him, but the event itself still happened). Spidey is just as culpable for that death as some of the ones credited to Batman considering he knew the Glider was coming and what would happen when he moved out of it's way instead of catching or diverting it.

    Heck, back in the 80s around the time of the original Hobgoblin mystery, Spider-man killed a regular woman because he punched her too hard (granted, she snuck up behind him and set off his spider sense during a fight with Wolverine so he turned around and punched hard enough to knock out someone with an adamantium skeleton). That happened, so maybe the "no killing" isn't core to his character either? At least, based on what you're saying.

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    GustavGustav Friend of Goats Somewhere in the OzarksRegistered User regular
    Yeah. I am. Cus I like Spider-Man more.

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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    I also don't really like nerd absolutism which is what Chris Sims primarily deals in.

    I really want to give a full response to this but I don't have time right now so I appologize for narrowing the scope here but about Batmans early years:

    At the same time that batman killed several other core aspects were missing from his character. His tragic backstory wouldn't be added for five issues and it wouldn't exist in its complete form until after the comic spelling out Batmans code. His rich socialite status, his double life persona, his vast team of allies including Alfred.

    If Batman's one rule is not inherent to his character because he once existed without it than none of these aspects would seem to be inherent to his character.

    I

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    ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    Yeah. I am. Cus I like Spider-Man more.

    ....okie dokie

    I have a podcast about Power Rangers:Teenagers With Attitude | TWA Facebook Group
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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    I'm okay with a hero accidentally killing someone if their reaction is appropriate

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    LarsLars Registered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    Yeah. I am. Cus I like Spider-Man more.

    Well, at least you're honest about being a hypocrite in this scenario, but it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to talk about it.

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    StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Gustav wrote: »
    Yeah. I am. Cus I like Spider-Man more.

    That's fair

    I mean, I do not care if Superman kills, personally

    And that's probably largely because the character I identify with most in Superman comics is Lex Luthor

This discussion has been closed.