GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Honestly, if I must be serious. If Spider-Man killed in a movie that I still enjoyed, it wouldn't break the movie for me.
I'm kinda ok with heroes trying their damndest not to kill more than anything.
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
These characters can change all the time and precedent shouldn't come into the argument really as much as "What's consistently good about these characters?"
Batman is a Pulp detective/Zorro type character at his best
Superman is a inspiring figure with a little bit of showmanship mixed in everything he does
Spider-man is the everyman forced to make the hard choice to do the right thing
You can absolutely change these things but then the characters get worse, not better. Who cares if one writer made an exception? All that matters was that it was a GOOD exception or a bad one.
+1
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
Well, at least you're honest about being a hypocrite in this scenario, but it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to talk about it.
My point is people have different but totally valid reactions to art and stories. I'm not saying a single person is wrong for taking umbrage with any of these characters killing. I'm saying if the end result is a good story it doesn't bother me.
I'm okay with a hero accidentally killing someone if their reaction is appropriate
Yeah, that "accidentally" is a huge qualifier. Spider-man should never try to kill someone. Spider-man should never intentionally kill someone. But you could get a good story or two out of Spider-man accidentally killing someone that would be entirely appropriate to his character.
I'm okay with a hero accidentally killing someone if their reaction is appropriate
Yeah, that "accidentally" is a huge qualifier. Spider-man should never try to kill someone. Spider-man should never intentionally kill someone. But you could get a good story or two out of Spider-man accidentally killing someone that would be entirely appropriate to his character.
Yeah, it's a pretty long road from "accidentally killing someone" to "Batman took out criminals with his Squad Automatic Weapon".
I guess I feel that no-kill is less important to Batman because they've spent so many years making the world and the character darker and darker. They've had a Joker with his face cut off and reattached and made Batman think they had done the same to his family. They did the Killing Joke where a father saw naked images of his daughter who had been shot. I feel that at this point, the character not killing is a left over of what Batman used to be and it might be an ok time to hang that up.
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
I guess I feel that no-kill is less important to Batman because they've spent so many years making the world and the character darker and darker. They've had a Joker with his face cut off and reattached and made Batman think they had done the same to his family. They did the Killing Joke where a father saw naked images of his daughter who had been shot. I feel that at this point, the character not killing is a left over of what Batman used to be and it might be an ok time to hang that up.
Only if you think any of that shit was a good idea
+23
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I guess I feel that no-kill is less important to Batman because they've spent so many years making the world and the character darker and darker. They've had a Joker with his face cut off and reattached and made Batman think they had done the same to his family. They did the Killing Joke where a father saw naked images of his daughter who had been shot. I feel that at this point, the character not killing is a left over of what Batman used to be and it might be an ok time to hang that up.
It's definitely an issue to be considered. The reason you get all of the "WHY DOESN'T BATMAN KILL THE JOKER" hullabaloo is because of how hilariously over the top they've made the stakes.
I guess I feel that no-kill is less important to Batman because they've spent so many years making the world and the character darker and darker. They've had a Joker with his face cut off and reattached and made Batman think they had done the same to his family. They did the Killing Joke where a father saw naked images of his daughter who had been shot. I feel that at this point, the character not killing is a left over of what Batman used to be and it might be an ok time to hang that up.
I don't think taking the shittiest writing out of all of the batman stories as evidence that Batman should be a completely different guy works to well.
I guess I feel that no-kill is less important to Batman because they've spent so many years making the world and the character darker and darker. They've had a Joker with his face cut off and reattached and made Batman think they had done the same to his family. They did the Killing Joke where a father saw naked images of his daughter who had been shot. I feel that at this point, the character not killing is a left over of what Batman used to be and it might be an ok time to hang that up.
I think that might be a part of the reason why I think it's important that he doesn't kill, actually?
Like, Batman is the number one advocate for rehabilitation
No matter how awful the things you do are, there's help for you
I think film media could use more main characters who don't kill, to be honest.
That's the big reason I like Superman and hate Man of Steel. He's like THE guy with the upstanding morals AND the power to follow through on them, and the movie whiffs on that SO HARD.
Undead Scottsman on
+10
BroloBroseidonLord of the BroceanRegistered Userregular
I still kind of like the killing joke, the problem is that it exists in ongoing comics continuity
To me, Killing Joke is THE ENDPOIND of batman/joker's shared narrative
The fact that they had to escalate from there, what should have been the most horrible thing the joker ever did, ever? That's the kind of thinking that ruins the character for me
Except his idea of help is a gothic stone lunatic asylum with gargoyles all over
Man I would have leapt at the possibility of being committed if it had been to a place as sick as that
No other health care facility will give you the option of eating someone, being eaten by someone (who may be a crocodile monster), or suddenly exploding when the crocodile monster man blows up a wall to escape
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
I miss the Joker being a person
You can't put him in a room with another person and see what happens anymore, because now you KNOW it's going to be some dumb murder bullshit
I still kind of like the killing joke, the problem is that it exists in ongoing comics continuity
To me, Killing Joke is THE ENDPOIND of batman/joker's shared narrative
The fact that they had to escalate from there, what should have been the most horrible thing the joker ever did, ever? That's the kind of thinking that ruins the character for me
I've always loved Grant Morrison's interpretation of the last page of The Killing Joke as Batman killing the Joker, and that being the end of them both.
+1
GustavFriend of GoatsSomewhere in the OzarksRegistered Userregular
I still kind of like the killing joke, the problem is that it exists in ongoing comics continuity
To me, Killing Joke is THE ENDPOIND of batman/joker's shared narrative
The fact that they had to escalate from there, what should have been the most horrible thing the joker ever did, ever? That's the kind of thinking that ruins the character for me
The continuing theme of Alan Moore accidentally causing some of the worse trends in comics.
I'd bump Hush up a bit because Batman Eternal was alright.
I haven't read that, admittedly
And there is stuff here like, obviously I'm not talking about current comics Mr. Freeze because the changes they made to him are terrible, but I guess I am talking about current comics Joker?
I'll admit there was not a lot of logic and thought that went into that list
+1
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Just to clarify - I wasn't saying I liked the darker tone - just that DC obviously has pushed that element of Batman for quite awhile now. The day I could walk into my local comic shop and buy a deluxe edition of a trade that came with a Joker's Skin Mask made it pretty clear what direction they want to steer the series.
Posts
I'm kinda ok with heroes trying their damndest not to kill more than anything.
Batman is a Pulp detective/Zorro type character at his best
Superman is a inspiring figure with a little bit of showmanship mixed in everything he does
Spider-man is the everyman forced to make the hard choice to do the right thing
You can absolutely change these things but then the characters get worse, not better. Who cares if one writer made an exception? All that matters was that it was a GOOD exception or a bad one.
My point is people have different but totally valid reactions to art and stories. I'm not saying a single person is wrong for taking umbrage with any of these characters killing. I'm saying if the end result is a good story it doesn't bother me.
Yeah, that "accidentally" is a huge qualifier. Spider-man should never try to kill someone. Spider-man should never intentionally kill someone. But you could get a good story or two out of Spider-man accidentally killing someone that would be entirely appropriate to his character.
http://chainsawsuit.com/
Yeah, it's a pretty long road from "accidentally killing someone" to "Batman took out criminals with his Squad Automatic Weapon".
It's definitely an issue to be considered. The reason you get all of the "WHY DOESN'T BATMAN KILL THE JOKER" hullabaloo is because of how hilariously over the top they've made the stakes.
Evanescence's Wake Me Up Inside feels pretty apropos
I don't think taking the shittiest writing out of all of the batman stories as evidence that Batman should be a completely different guy works to well.
I think that might be a part of the reason why I think it's important that he doesn't kill, actually?
Like, Batman is the number one advocate for rehabilitation
No matter how awful the things you do are, there's help for you
That's the big reason I like Superman and hate Man of Steel. He's like THE guy with the upstanding morals AND the power to follow through on them, and the movie whiffs on that SO HARD.
this might be the batman I enjoyed the most in the past decade
Man I would have leapt at the possibility of being committed if it had been to a place as sick as that
I just finished reading Endgame and for fuck's sake
let's let Gotham not be ground down to a fine powder for maybe like a couple issues maybe
He shouldn't succeed though, and afterwards he should feel really bad and never try to kill anyone ever again
Being trapped in the same buiding as people like the Joker, Two-Face, Poison Ivy, Killer Croc and would be an incentive NOT get committed, honestly.
The Riddler might be fun to hang out with a the Asylum, so long as they could keep him from deathtrapping the place.
To me, Killing Joke is THE ENDPOIND of batman/joker's shared narrative
The fact that they had to escalate from there, what should have been the most horrible thing the joker ever did, ever? That's the kind of thinking that ruins the character for me
No other health care facility will give you the option of eating someone, being eaten by someone (who may be a crocodile monster), or suddenly exploding when the crocodile monster man blows up a wall to escape
You can't put him in a room with another person and see what happens anymore, because now you KNOW it's going to be some dumb murder bullshit
He used to be part of my top 3
Now he's barely in my top 10 I bet
I've always loved Grant Morrison's interpretation of the last page of The Killing Joke as Batman killing the Joker, and that being the end of them both.
The continuing theme of Alan Moore accidentally causing some of the worse trends in comics.
yeah at this point the idea that he has henchmen who choose to work for him is laughable
hahaha
Best Major Batman Villains (totally off the top of my head so I assuredly missed some):
I haven't read that, admittedly
And there is stuff here like, obviously I'm not talking about current comics Mr. Freeze because the changes they made to him are terrible, but I guess I am talking about current comics Joker?
I'll admit there was not a lot of logic and thought that went into that list
Riddler heavily emphasizes the detective aspect of Batman comics
A huge part of my love for him is because he brings out the best in Batman