This Thread Will Go Down in [History]

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    Makes sense, I could go throw myself in a bog right now if I so chose, cant say that about about a great white shark mouth

    And I did!

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    Thats me

    Hobnail on
    cB557ShortyMidniteErlecPeas
  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    An incomplete list of rulers and generals who died in the swamps

    1. Louis II, King of Hungary

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  • IronKnuckle's GhostIronKnuckle's Ghost Registered User regular
    They thought I was daft to build a castle in a swamp! But I did it, all the same!

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  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    I am actually reading a biography about Grant and you'd be surprised at how much of the Civil War around the Mississippi was "and Lieutenant/Colonel/General/Major General X planned to attack Y but learned that Y was surrounded by five miles of dense partially underwater, disease ridden bog and there was no chance in hell they were gonna get men or horses or god forbid artillery pieces through it."

    Also while I already knew this the staggering, almost mind-numbing incompetence displayed by the majority of generals in the war is still like, sometimes hard to imagine. Hindsight is 20/20 but man folks still just made the stupidest decision.

    Even Grant, who is generally considered one of the best Union generals was mainly just good because he had years of experience as a quartermaster so he knew how to keep his armies and their supply lines moving relatively fast. Also quiet temperament and something who did not outwardly ever appear distressed (although from the tons of personal writings he left we know he was stressed basically all the time during battle, he hated battles.) meant he got along well with his men, subordinates, and superiors. Also something I am surprised doesn't come up more as Grant's actual worst thing he did as a general (the drinking thing was overblown, the only substantiated time where he had a drinking problem was when he was stationed in California a decade before the war.) which was General Order No. 11. A ridiculous blatantly prejudiced order that shocked even other generals and caused a shitshow for Lincoln,
    "General Orders No. 11

    _______

    Head Quarters 13th Army Corps,
    Department of the Tennessee,
    Oxford, Miss. Dec. 17, 1862.

    I.. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade
    established by the Treasury Department, and also Department
    orders, are hereby expelled from the Department.

    II.. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order
    by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people
    be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one re-
    turning after such notification will be arrested and held in con-
    finement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as pris-
    oners, unless furnished with permit from Head Quarters.

    III.. No permits will be given these people to visit Head
    Quarters for the purpose of making personal application for
    trade permits.

    By Order of Maj. Genl. U.S. Grant
    JNO. A. RAWLINS
    Ass't Adj't Genl."
    It caused such a political shitshow that a high officer in the army would be so openly anti-semitic that Grant had to very quickly repeal the order, and then had to spend the next six or so months playing the integration golden boy in using freemen and runaway slaves as adjutants in his army. (Several people in the War Department liked Grant, so they covertly told him to make a big show of following Lincoln's new directive for using african americans in the union army if he wanted to repair his reputation with the White House.)

    Also fact that is interesting: Did you know that Ulysses Grant's father, Jesse Grant, both knew and was friends with John Brown? Yes, that John Brown. The older grant lived with the Brown family for a number of years on his long quest for financial independence.

    Another random fact: Ulysses S. Grant was born Hiram Ulysses Grant. How did his name change? First, most folks called him Ulysses even though growing up he preferred Hiram, as people would often make fun of the fact that he had a high falutin' name. So when Grant's father tried to get him a recommendation to go into West Point he of course used the name that people would know his son as, Ulysses. Second, when Ulysses learned he was going to West Point his father got him a monogrammed traveling case. However, Ulysses realized that his monogram would be H.U.G and was terrified that every other kid at West Point would rib him mercilessly for that (and to be fair, they would have) so begged his father to switch the monogram to U.H.G. Now, where did the S come from? Simple, the Ohio congressman who got him the recommendation got his name wrong, as Ulysses Sampson Grant. And Grant just had to go with that name for his West Point career and by the time he got out of West Point he had just kind of gotten used to it. To be fair, it did lead to probably the coolest nickname for a general in the Civil War and a cooler nickname than Grant probably deserved: Unconditional Surrender Grant.

    Gundi on
    cB557ElvenshaeL Ron Howard
  • IronKnuckle's GhostIronKnuckle's Ghost Registered User regular
    Wasn't a big chunk of ACW blunders simply down to the fact that it was the tail end of the "buy an officer commission" era? I think I recall Grant and some others being rare exceptions as officers who got to their posts on merit. Of course, politics was and remains a substantial component in any military post.

  • PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    You ever think about the people in Jack Chick tracts who go, "GOD, I just love sinning, it's so much fun"

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Wasn't a big chunk of ACW blunders simply down to the fact that it was the tail end of the "buy an officer commission" era? I think I recall Grant and some others being rare exceptions as officers who got to their posts on merit. Of course, politics was and remains a substantial component in any military post.

    partially yeah

    there also hadn't been any sort of war for over a decade, and the civil war was fought extremely differently than most previous wars

  • JedocJedoc Once to start a new life and once just to start a fireRegistered User regular
    Platy wrote: »
    You ever think about the people in Jack Chick tracts who go, "GOD, I just love sinning, it's so much fun"

    I'm pretty sure John Waters says that, verbatim, at least twice a month.

    GDdCWMm.jpg
    HobnailShortyCaptain InertiatynicZonugalMidnitechrishallett83V1m
  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    I think about the kid whose response to getting swindled out of his eternal heavenly reward and winding up in hell as his best friend peels off his own face to reveal that of Satan, the Enemy, is to shout SOMEBODY GOOFED

    I think about that all the time

    Shorty on
    cB557tynicZonugalMidnite
  • JedocJedoc Once to start a new life and once just to start a fireRegistered User regular
    BINGOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    SOMEBODY GOOFED is right up there with MISTAKES WERE MADE in the apocalypse graffiti runnings

    ShortyIronKnuckle's GhostcB557BlackDragon480ZonugalMidniteFencingsaxDouglasDangervalhalla130
  • IronKnuckle's GhostIronKnuckle's Ghost Registered User regular
    Remember that one about the witch who recruits for her coven by running D&D night? But then she also kills that one girl's character, and insists it's her own fault? Pretty jerky DM-ing there!

    Elvenshaevalhalla130
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    More stupid Civil War battle stuff: reading about the battle of Chattanooga and one small part in particular, the Battle of Missionary Ridge. Basically, at one point the Army of Cumberland misunderstood an order from their commanding officer, General H. Thomas. Grant had ordered Thomas to use his army of a couple thousand men to push against a heavily fortified position on Missionary Hill having more defenders, artillery, and with elaborate earthen-work fortifications and an elevation advantage. Grant knew that such an attack would be futile, but he wanted to put pressure to distract confederates from Sherman's more equipped attack a few away on the same ridgeline. Well, somehow the order was misunderstood or miscommunication and the Army of Cumberland, interpreting the order as "take that hill", starting charging into the death trap. And they made it through the rifle pits. And the confederates broke and ran. And they made it over the multiple layers of ditches and mounds. And the confederates broke and ran. And they took the hillcrest, and the confederates broke and ran. Thomas and Grant had to desperately order them to stop advancing, and the Army of Cumberland purportedly lost more men in the falling back action to defensible positions on the ridge than they had ascending and taking the fortification. Needless to say, the confederate army defending the ridge was shattered and had to make a full retreat across a nearby creek when Sherman's army of the Tennessee, which was meant to be the army that actually took Missionary Ridge, mopped up the shattered center.

    If it's stupid and it works...

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    More stupid Civil War battle stuff: reading about the battle of Chattanooga and one small part in particular, the Battle of Missionary Ridge. Basically, at one point the Army of Cumberland misunderstood an order from their commanding officer, General H. Thomas. Grant had ordered Thomas to use his army of a couple thousand men to push against a heavily fortified position on Missionary Hill having more defenders, artillery, and with elaborate earthen-work fortifications and an elevation advantage. Grant knew that such an attack would be futile, but he wanted to put pressure to distract confederates from Sherman's more equipped attack a few away on the same ridgeline. Well, somehow the order was misunderstood or miscommunication and the Army of Cumberland, interpreting the order as "take that hill", starting charging into the death trap. And they made it through the rifle pits. And the confederates broke and ran. And they made it over the multiple layers of ditches and mounds. And the confederates broke and ran. And they took the hillcrest, and the confederates broke and ran. Thomas and Grant had to desperately order them to stop advancing, and the Army of Cumberland purportedly lost more men in the falling back action to defensible positions on the ridge than they had ascending and taking the fortification. Needless to say, the confederate army defending the ridge was shattered and had to make a full retreat across a nearby creek when Sherman's army of the Tennessee, which was meant to be the army that actually took Missionary Ridge, mopped up the shattered center.

    If it's stupid and it works...

    It's still stupid and you're lucky, per the Maxims.

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  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Oh speaking of stupid purportedly Douglas MacArthur's father was the first man up on that ridge. So I guess that means he was either the stupidest or the fastest.

  • JedocJedoc Once to start a new life and once just to start a fireRegistered User regular
    Everything about Douggie Mac's later career suggests mostly the first, and also the luckiest sumbitch on either side of the war.

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    Tynnan
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    More stupid Civil War battle stuff: reading about the battle of Chattanooga and one small part in particular, the Battle of Missionary Ridge. Basically, at one point the Army of Cumberland misunderstood an order from their commanding officer, General H. Thomas. Grant had ordered Thomas to use his army of a couple thousand men to push against a heavily fortified position on Missionary Hill having more defenders, artillery, and with elaborate earthen-work fortifications and an elevation advantage. Grant knew that such an attack would be futile, but he wanted to put pressure to distract confederates from Sherman's more equipped attack a few away on the same ridgeline. Well, somehow the order was misunderstood or miscommunication and the Army of Cumberland, interpreting the order as "take that hill", starting charging into the death trap. And they made it through the rifle pits. And the confederates broke and ran. And they made it over the multiple layers of ditches and mounds. And the confederates broke and ran. And they took the hillcrest, and the confederates broke and ran. Thomas and Grant had to desperately order them to stop advancing, and the Army of Cumberland purportedly lost more men in the falling back action to defensible positions on the ridge than they had ascending and taking the fortification. Needless to say, the confederate army defending the ridge was shattered and had to make a full retreat across a nearby creek when Sherman's army of the Tennessee, which was meant to be the army that actually took Missionary Ridge, mopped up the shattered center.

    If it's stupid and it works...


    [nitpick alert] General George H. Thomas. [/nitpick alert]


    Thomas is probably the most underrated of the Civil War generals. He was the Virginian who stuck with the Union, putting lie to the notion that all Virginians just loved their state too much to turn against it, so the Confederate apologists hated him. Also he died soon after the war, thus never having time to write memoirs as most of the others did eventually so other people ended up overshadowing him. I just feel the need to step in and defend him here and there.

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  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    edited May 27
    Doug MacArthur’s pops’s name was Arthur MacArthur

    Captain Inertia on
    valhalla130
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    He was actualy Arthur MacArthur Jr., which implies a history of [sarcasm]extremely creative[/sarcasm] family names.

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    He was actualy Arthur MacArthur Jr., which implies a history of [sarcasm]extremely creative[/sarcasm] family names.

    Shabadoo

  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    Back in the day you'd just name your son after yourself. It sure makes researching family history difficult.

    Elvenshae
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    As a prisoner of the horrid past I have sired nine children and named them all George or William, statistically enough of them should die before puberty that I'll end up with just one of each

  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Wayne Wayne Wayne Jr. III

  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    Hobnail wrote: »
    82% of all military catastrophes/triumphs are due to unforseen swamps and bogs

    Maybe 72%.

    It is a well known fact that 82% of all military screw-ups are because of officers.

    MayabirdHobnailSkeithShortyDarth Waiter
  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    I remember Mike Duncan (History of Rome/Revolutions podcasts) saying once he subscribed to something like the opposite of the Great Man theory of history, in that he believes history is more driven by idiots screwing up than anything else.

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I go for the "loose kindling" theory of history. The kindling is the pressures of social, economic and environmental pressures that encourage certain movements and invite the risk of flashpoints. But human agency still exists and can still either clear the kindling away, accidentally cause a spark or throw a patrol bomb among it. Someone could have guided 18th Century France into structural reforms without it exploding into violence, but Louis XVI was not that person. Or look at how different empires evolved over the various turnovers of the Third Century. Different folk gets you different results.

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  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    Ancient Rome's Sanitation System: Centuries Ahead of It's Time 17:03

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  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    edited June 4
    edit:
    Dang I don't know why I am double posting so much these past few days

    Peas on
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    cB557
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Dear Lord Jesus preserve me from a life situation where I must shit into a communal toilet bench or hang my asshole out over a log and shit into a communal toilet trench

    PeascB557Kayne Red RobeDepressperadoShortyMidniteFencingsaxfurlionsarukunDarth Waiter
  • DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    oh yeah I would not shit until I died from it, I think.

    HobnailShorty
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited June 4
    It would be my secret shame and crime, that I go out into the woods and dig a private hole to shit into

    God you know people would talk on the communal shit bench like the demented perverts who try to gin up conversation in public bathrooms but it's a shitting bench and they're trying to make eye contact with you and talk about something while you both shit

    Hobnail on
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  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    Would you like to know the origin of the phrase "kill them all and let God sort them out"? It's about as depressing as you'd guess!

    In the early 13th century Pope Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars in Languedoc the southern region of what is now France (digression, it's known as Languedoc because it was where people spoke Occitan rather than what became the dominant French language and said "oc" for yes, rather than the northern "oui"). The Cathars were a heretical sect of Christianity which had a fair number of interesting beliefs (and practiced gender equality) but the important bit for this story is that they denied secular authority such as that of the Pope in favor of a more personal relationship with God. You can imagine how that doesn't sit well with Rome.

    Anyways after a few years of faffing about trying to get the local nobility or the King of France to do something about this growing heresy the Pope took action... and sent a legation of priests to debate the Cathar perfects (as Cathar religious leaders were called) in an attempt to convince the heretics to recant and rejoin the Church. That went nowhere so a few years later after a few more aborted attempts to get the local Count Raymond of Toulouse to stamp out the Cathars (the guy gets excommunicated at least twice during this) Innocent throws up his hands and calls a crusade against the Cathars (sometimes called the Albigensian crusade after the town of Albi which was basically Cathar HQ).

    Naturally a crusade right on their doorstep attracted a bunch of French knights who were stoked to be able to get the whole package of sin forgiveness for crusading without having to travel much. Rome sends up one of the same guys who had such little luck with the peaceful conversion attempt earlier, one Arnaud Amalric, to get some catharsis by leading the crusade.

    Pretty much the crusader's first stop was the fortified town of Beziers, which had a sizable Cathar population, but was majority Catholic. After a lucky break the crusader army is able to breach the walls and enters the town.

    The monk Caesarius of Heisterbach writes (about 20 years after the fact) of the massacre of Beziers:
    When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot "Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics." The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius – Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain.

    Amalric himself in a letter to Innocent III wrote:
    Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it.

    As an aside, if you've played the game Carcassonne, have you ever wondered why you are doing the work of repopulating an area of medieval France? Wonder no longer, Carcassonne surrenders to the crusaders in an attempt to avoid getting the Beziers treatment and Amalric allows the people to flee (albeit with no belongings other than their underwear) before burning the city to the ground.

    cB557
  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    wow! that story fuckin' sucks!

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    What is it with Innocent III and horrible crusades?

  • Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Ironically-names Popes

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Pope Rain On Your Wedding Day IX

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  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    The crusades in general suck. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

    Captain InertiaFencingsaxBlackDragon480Kruite
  • The Cow KingThe Cow King scuz me ur under dog arrest Registered User regular
    The Pope's where so bad at their jobs they started a thirty years war and 8 million people died

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    The Pope's where so bad at their jobs they started a thirty years war and 8 million people died

    Wasn't that the Hapsburgs?

  • GvzbgulGvzbgul Ask me about my scrotalist agenda Registered User regular
    The crusades in general suck. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
    I'm a big fan of the Childrens Crusade. It sucked too.

    Kayne Red RobeV1m
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