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  • GvzbgulGvzbgul I am silent and my silence is complicity. Registered User regular
    TheStig wrote: »
    The best thing anyone can do to survive any sort of danger or survival situation is to just have good cardio and be generally in shape, but when you see all these prepper dudes they all look like they couldn't run a mile.
    There's been a big push on boogaloo meme pages to prioritize fitness and owning rural land over guns.

  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    I support the boogaloo movement's efforts to move far away from me.

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  • The Cow KingThe Cow King a island Registered User regular
    edited April 21
    I may be am a drunk who smokes to much but I'd still bet on my self to win a fist fight with preppers

    The Cow King on
    icGJy2C.png
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I wonder how fit like, a modern athlete is compared to a medieval ukrainian warrior

  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I wonder how fit like, a modern athlete is compared to a medieval ukrainian warrior

    Probably in better overall health.

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  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    yeah diet and nutrition alone means the modern athlete wins that matchup

    Buttersfurlion
  • sarukunsarukun RIESLING OCEANRegistered User regular
    TheStig wrote: »
    I support the boogaloo movement's efforts to move far away from me.

    If they could fuck off into the ocean, that would be tits.

    TheStigKayne Red RobeElvenshaetynicMayabirdvalhalla130
  • JayKaosJayKaos Registered User regular
    I'd also personally be interested to see medieval warrior type compared to someone in relatively average shape. Like does the lifetime of physical activity balance out the drastic differences in diet and nutrition or would your average modern joe schmo just kinda push over everyone around.

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  • PeasPeas Registered User regular
    I wonder if there were really any warriors in history who could do dynasty warriors stuff

  • IronKnuckle's GhostIronKnuckle's Ghost Registered User regular
    Every legend about Lu Bu is true.

    PeasTheStigDepressperadoKayne Red RobeElvenshaesarukun
  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Right now there is a monk just slightly levitating on a mountain crag who can kick a fireball into your chest at 20 paces, everyone hoped that the advent of MMA in the 90's would lure these sorts of practitioners from their obscurity with the promise of ultimate combat but as it turned out it was just a bunch of lumpy dudes strangling eachothet with their karate outfits and trying to rip eachothers ballbags off

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  • DepressperadoDepressperado I just wanted to see you laughing in the pizza rainRegistered User regular
    edited April 21
    Peas wrote: »
    I wonder if there were really any warriors in history who could do dynasty warriors stuff

    that norse warrior who held a bridge singlehandedly until some fucking englishman snuck up and stabbed him in the dick

    Depressperado on
    PeasMayabird
  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    Every legend about Lu Bu is true.

    Do not pursue Lu Bu.

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  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I know a woman that did a double footed dropkick on a man and shot him through both windows of a car. Just putting that out there in this warrior debate. Thoughts?

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I wonder how fit like, a modern athlete is compared to a medieval ukrainian warrior

    much more so, but like, knights and men-at-arms and full time mercs did not fuck around

    hell, roman soldiers were expected to march 15-20 miles a day with around 40 kilos of gear, break down and set up, and cook their own meals

    ElvenshaesarukunFencingsax
  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    174731400_3375438679223274_3177634692427003628_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=Uu2N5Zdah4AAX80shdr&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-2.fna&oh=f925e93b030f2a3381605c04a03dbeb9&oe=60A74F05

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I wonder how fit like, a modern athlete is compared to a medieval ukrainian warrior

    much more so, but like, knights and men-at-arms and full time mercs did not fuck around

    hell, roman soldiers were expected to march 15-20 miles a day with around 40 kilos of gear, break down and set up, and cook their own meals

    This part seems a little exaggerated. I think I buy 20kg not 40kg.

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    Straightzi
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    edited April 21
    I've seen estimates ranging anywhere from 50 to 100 pounds, and honestly I'd believe most of them.

    Roman soldiers were a thing for an entire millennia, and were frequently supplying their own equipment, which leads to a lot of potential differences in weight.

    Plus additional variable stuff - everyone might have to carry a backpack with some food and camping materials, but only some people are carrying the disassembled ballista timbers on their shoulders, and even if you try and spread that sort of thing evenly you're going to end up with discrepancies.

    Straightzi on
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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Seems pretty plausible the army these days will make you hump an awful lot of shit around depending on your job

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  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    174731400_3375438679223274_3177634692427003628_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=Uu2N5Zdah4AAX80shdr&_nc_ht=scontent.ftpa1-2.fna&oh=f925e93b030f2a3381605c04a03dbeb9&oe=60A74F05

    This is just more proof that Tube is an ancient being who has long guided mankind in their time of need.

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  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Hobnail wrote: »
    Seems pretty plausible the army these days will make you hump an awful lot of shit around depending on your job

    The amount of weight carried by professional soldiers is one of those things that stays weirdly static over the centuries.

    The weight of the individual items might change (a sword is a fair bit lighter than a machine gun, that sort of thing), but it generally adds up to similar numbers (that 50-100 lb or 20-40 kg range). Obviously there are outliers, but it's an interesting thing to see as a general trend.

    asofyeuncB557Fencingsax
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Hobnail wrote: »
    Seems pretty plausible the army these days will make you hump an awful lot of shit around depending on your job

    The amount of weight carried by professional soldiers is one of those things that stays weirdly static over the centuries.

    The weight of the individual items might change (a sword is a fair bit lighter than a machine gun, that sort of thing), but it generally adds up to similar numbers (that 50-100 lb or 20-40 kg range). Obviously there are outliers, but it's an interesting thing to see as a general trend.

    Probably just that physics are constant there.

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  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Makes sense I suppose, not like the amount of weight a fit human can carry while still moving at a decent pace will drift that much.

  • TheStigTheStig Registered User regular
    When I was in the army I could do 20 miles a day and have around 40kg of gear. I also wouldn't have considered myself athletic outside of running and marching. Humans are just really good at that stuff. For real when I was in the army I had like no muscle mass.

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited April 21
    There are also people who just plain old specialise in carrying shit I don't really know how much a professional porter would carry around but you read about people hauling their own weight around on their back in like the fucking jungle

    Hobnail on
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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    edited April 21
    The Marian reforms are in interesting insight into both how physically fit Roman soldiers were, and also how fit they had been before his reforms.

    Before the reforms soldiers didn't actually really travel with much kit at all. It was all stored in wagons or on mules, because what fucking idiot is gonna want to walk around with a whole bunch of weight, that shit is tiring. If two armies wanted to fight they'd both settle in, go find their shit in the wagons, and then like maybe fight the next day.

    Also because this was a volunteer army it was the richer, older, and more experienced men who had better and heavier equipment, and they definitely weren't interested in carrying that stuff themselves.

    Marius reformed the army by turning it professional and opening it to all social ranks, with the state providing equipment. Which meant that armies now had a lot more gear to move around overall. Marius required men to carry their own gear, plus enough food for a few days and other basic necessities, both to reduce the size of the baggage train behind the army and also to make them more responsive in the field, able to just drop their packs and go into a fight if necessary. Marius also launched a program of physical fitness, making his army march around the countryside in their packs, which was seen as just horribly embarrassing and unmanly behavior, derisively referred to as "Marius's mules." But it, apparently, made a big difference in the army's ability to stay in a long fight, which kind of becomes the trademark of the Roman army afterwards. Roman armies would just tire the fuck out of their enemies, because most armies the romans fought were more similar to the pre-marian armies in terms of fitness and how they moved stuff around.

    At any rate I think that says a lot about the general level of cardio in ancient enemies, which is - good, but often not as good as you would expect.

    Kana on
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  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    I wonder how fit like, a modern athlete is compared to a medieval ukrainian warrior

    much more so, but like, knights and men-at-arms and full time mercs did not fuck around

    hell, roman soldiers were expected to march 15-20 miles a day with around 40 kilos of gear, break down and set up, and cook their own meals

    This part seems a little exaggerated. I think I buy 20kg not 40kg.

    their armor and weapons alone was about 20-30kg, they also had to carry their own food and cooking equipment, bedding, part of the tents, and sundry other shit

    the legions were able to stay mobile and ready quickly because everybody was responsible for their own shit

    ElvenshaeFencingsax
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul I am silent and my silence is complicity. Registered User regular
    edited April 21
    IIRC US soldiers are currently an outlier, carrying much more weight than soldiers have historically.
    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/19/world-war-ii-vs-today-comparing-soldiers-load-two-eras/
    What we’ll be doing is comparing the Approach March Load (AML) of the Rifleman from 2017 versus the Rifleman of 1944-45, as well as the AML of the Automatic Rifleman (SAW gunner) of 2017 versus his counterpart of 1944-45.

    First, we’ll refer back to The Modern Warrior’s Combat Load (2003) for detailed figures. That document gives a value of 95.7 pounds (43.4 kilograms) for the Rifleman’s AML. We also know from 101 Comments that the soldier of 2017 is carrying a similar 96 pound load, although this load can increase significantly. Of that, 13.5 pounds (6.1 kilograms) is the ammunition (7 30 round magazines, and 200 linked rounds for the SAW), and 8.7 pounds (3.9 kilograms) is the fully equipped weapon (unloaded; with magazine inserted it is 9.7 pounds/4.4 kilograms).
    According to the Modern Warrior’s Combat Load, the Automatic Rifleman of 2003 carried a load of 110.8 pounds (50.2 kilograms). However, that load has increased in the intervening years to 128 pounds (58 kilograms), as per the GAO report. Of these 128 pounds, a whopping 24.7 pounds (11.2 kilograms) is ammunition (800 linked rounds), and 18.9 pounds (8.6 kilograms) is the unloaded, fully equipped weapon (loaded it is 23.1 pounds, 10.5 kilograms).
    For the soldier’s load during WWII, we will use the Soldier’s Load page over at 45thDivision.org. This provides a detailed breakdown of equipment carried at the time for both the Rifleman and the Automatic Rifleman (BAR gunner). According to the data on the website, the rifleman’s load during World War II was just 68.2 pounds (30.9 kilograms)! Of this, approximately 11.6 pounds (5.3 kilograms) was ammunition, and about 10.7 pounds (4.9 kilograms) was the M1 Garand with sling and cleaning kit (loaded, the rifle weighed 11.3 pounds/5.1 kilograms).
    The Automatic Rifleman carried the notoriously heavy and cumbersome M1918A2 BAR, but even he comes out ahead of his modern counterpart by about 30 pounds. His total combat load was 84.3 pounds (38.2 kilograms), over eleven pounds lighter than the modern Rifleman’s combat load. Of this, 19.1 pounds (8.7 kilograms) was his ammunition, and 21.9 pounds (9.9 kilograms) was his BAR sans magazine and ammunition (with loaded magazine 23.4 pounds/10.6 kilograms).
    The comparison makes it very clear: The Rifleman’s load today is nearly 30 pounds heavier than his counterpart’s load of 70 years ago, while the Automatic Rifleman’s load is over 40 pounds heavier than his WWII counterpart. Further, not only has the soldier’s total load increased thanks to the addition of body armor, night vision, new first aid equipment, and other innovations, but he is carrying more weight in weapons and ammunition, as well. Despite 70 years of innovation in lightweight weapons and ammunition, the soldier is still carrying more in weaponry than he did in 1945.
    This drives home the old saw that soldiers are given “100 pounds of lightweight gear” – for the modern soldier this is quite literally true. Despite ammunition that per round is half the weight, and rifles that (when bare) weigh a fraction of their predecessors, the soldier today is burdened with so many additions, and such a substantial ammunition load that his predecessor from the European Theater seems to be taking it easy by comparison.

    Gvzbgul on
    cB557
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    The Marian reforms are in interesting insight into both how physically fit Roman soldiers were, and also how fit they had been before his reforms.

    Before the reforms soldiers didn't actually really travel with much a kit at all. It was all stored in wagons, because what fucking idiot is gonna want to walk around with a whole bunch of weight, that shit is tiring. If two armies wanted to fight they'd both settle in, go find their shit in the wagons, and then like maybe fight the next day.

    Also because this was a volunteer army it was the richer, older, and more experienced men who had better and heavier equipment, and they definitely weren't interested in carrying that stuff themselves.

    Marius reformed the army by turning it professional and opening it to all social ranks, with the state providing equipment. Which meant that armies now had a lot more gear to move around overall. Marius required men to carry their own gear, plus enough food for a few days and other basic necessities, both to reduce the size of the baggage train behind the army and also to make them more responsive in the field, able to just drop their packs and go into a fight if necessary. Marius also launched a program of physical fitness, making his army march around the countryside in their packs, which was seen as just horribly embarrassing and unmanly behavior, derisively referred to as "Marius's mules." But it, apparently, made a big difference in the army's ability to stay in a long fight, which kind of becomes the trademark of the Roman army afterwards. Roman armies would just tire the fuck out of their enemies, because most armies the romans fought were more similar to the pre-marian armies in terms of fitness and how they moved stuff around.

    At any rate I think that says a lot about the general level of cardio in ancient enemies, which is - good, but often not as good as you would expect.

    The Marian reforms are interesting both from a military standpoint and a political standpoint: How that professionalisation and reorienting of a soldier's loyalty to his general than the state contributed to the destabilisation of the Republic, and yet they were necessary because the Legions had been BTFO several times by Gauls in the years beforehand and traditional citizen recruitment could not replenish them nearly enough because growing wealth inequality from at least the Second Punic War meant that demographic had atrophied to next to nothing. So the reforms were a cause of that destabilisation, but they were also a symptom.

    cB557Peter EbelFencingsax
  • GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    I mean I believe "learn to carry literal shit-tons of shit" is a standard army basic training thing.

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  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    I would probably get the worst time travel, where I travel only in time but not in space, and since 1) Earth orbits the Sun, and 2) the Sun circles the galactic core but not in an exact orbital path, Earth may never actually be in the same place it was before. Where are all the time travelers? Their frozen bodies are floating in interstellar space, after they died of explosive decompression. Step 1 to Practical Time Travel being Make Practical Space Travel. A TARDIS would work but not most of the rest of the stuff.

    Solar wrote: »
    I'd say that military history is very unfashionable now, and not without some good reason I think. Its just that we seem to have a fascination for methods of war and killing. I dunno why. I find it interesting too I'm no different.

    It's because military history is full of obnoxious grognards and right-wingers, and any time you come across someone with an encyclopedic knowledge of weapons minutiae about Nazi weapons you're seconds away from getting all the Nazism full to the face. Or at least that's been my experience.

  • PiptheFairPiptheFair Registered User regular
    I'm a giant military history nerd and absolutely want all nazis to be punched

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  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 21
    cB557 wrote: »
    Makes sense I suppose, not like the amount of weight a fit human can carry while still moving at a decent pace will drift that much.

    Does also explain why a ton of money and R&D is going into exoskeletons that just help soldiers carry heavier kit than a human can.

    If every one of your soldiers can carry more than every one of theirs, that’s a pretty clear logistics win. (Though factor in how much maintenance said exoskeletons may require and who knows.)

    Inquisitor on
    cB557Elvenshaevalhalla130
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Inquisitor wrote: »
    cB557 wrote: »
    Makes sense I suppose, not like the amount of weight a fit human can carry while still moving at a decent pace will drift that much.

    Does also explain why a ton of money and R&D is going into exoskeletons that just help soldiers carry heavier kit than a human can.

    If every one of your soldiers can carry more than every one of theirs, that’s a pretty clear logistics win. (Though factor in how much maintenance said exoskeletons may require and who knows.)

    The ones the army is looking at are mainly unpowered things I think, so mainly just greasing joints and such I suspect.

    Powered stuff is something I think is being looked at to help maintenance crews though.

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  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    The "how much weight can/should a soldier carry" thing is quite interesting, in regards to female soldiers.

    The Norwegian armed forces is a conscript army. The basic soldier and many NCOs are conscripts, as are seamen and various other roles. There are professional soldiers, too (COs, pilots, special forces, etc.)

    But for the last several years, we switched form "every able-bodied man" to "every able-bodied person". Young women are now also required to serve for 1 year plus regular training exercises. (I should stress that since the fall of the USSR ("Our Great Eastern Neighbour") an ever-smaller fraction actually has to do military service.)

    But women can carry less weight than men, and military equipment is sized to fit men. The latter problem is working itself out (by buying smaller sizes with different fit), but how much should the basic infrantryman/woman be expected to carry?

    It may not be a surprise that special forces is exclusively male, but we have female submarine captains and army COs.

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
    cB557
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    The "how much weight can/should a soldier carry" thing is quite interesting, in regards to female soldiers.

    The Norwegian armed forces is a conscript army. The basic soldier and many NCOs are conscripts, as are seamen and various other roles. There are professional soldiers, too (COs, pilots, special forces, etc.)

    But for the last several years, we switched form "every able-bodied man" to "every able-bodied person". Young women are now also required to serve for 1 year plus regular training exercises. (I should stress that since the fall of the USSR ("Our Great Eastern Neighbour") an ever-smaller fraction actually has to do military service.)

    But women can carry less weight than men, and military equipment is sized to fit men. The latter problem is working itself out (by buying smaller sizes with different fit), but how much should the basic infrantryman/woman be expected to carry?

    It may not be a surprise that special forces is exclusively male, but we have female submarine captains and army COs.

    The only real comparison I have is from boy scouts. Our backpacking guidelines were always 20% of your weight, so that if someone got injured and their gear had to be split up, nobody should exceed 25% of their own weight. I feel like you could maybe say professional soldiers could easily go 25/33, but you always need the gear to be as lightweight as possible and the soldiers should be geared as lightly as possible as well, to make operations more feasible in general, and also to allow for more room for specialty equipment (like weather-related gear and mission-specific equipment).

    IIRC US Special Forces is mostly male, but not exclusively. This is because garrison/support staff like quartermasters and administrative clerks can be embedded as far down as the company level, so those special forces have their own supply and support staff, and all those folks are in the special forces unit and therefore have to meet the same requirements as the infantry they support.

    Again, this is all I'm pretty sure that's how that works (I am prior Army, but others may have more ... personal experience with special forces).

    All that to say I'm like 80% certain that the US Army's special forces have women in their ranks. I had an admin sergeant who was working toward going out for it.

    Fencingsax
  • GvzbgulGvzbgul I am silent and my silence is complicity. Registered User regular
    US soldiers are carrying 43.5kg (95.7 pounds). I don't think that fits the 25% guideline. Unless there's some absolute chonkers in the Army.

  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    PiptheFair wrote: »
    I'm a giant military history nerd and absolutely want all nazis to be punched

    Same, but they're not wrong. There are a lot of shitty racist troglodytes in the military history and wargaming spaces.

    Fencingsaxvalhalla130Mayabird
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    US soldiers are carrying 43.5kg (95.7 pounds). I don't think that fits the 25% guideline. Unless there's some absolute chonkers in the Army.

    How's that break down? Like, what're they carrying and how much does everything weigh?

  • InquisitorInquisitor Registered User regular
    edited April 22
    Tox wrote: »
    Gvzbgul wrote: »
    US soldiers are carrying 43.5kg (95.7 pounds). I don't think that fits the 25% guideline. Unless there's some absolute chonkers in the Army.

    How's that break down? Like, what're they carrying and how much does everything weigh?

    This article I found seems to break some of that down, though I only gave it a skim, because it is rather long: https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/the-soldiers-heavy-load-1

    Has the approach load for an assistant machine gunner at 140lbs. Good lord. That’s awful close to carrying 100% of my own body weight.

    Inquisitor on
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