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[Roleplaying Games] New Year, New Dungeons, Same Ol' Bane

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Posts

  • dresdenphiledresdenphile Watch out for snakes!Registered User regular
    The offline 4E Character Builder was amazing. Even with its quirks, I've really never come across a character creator as straightforward and thorough as that one.

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    tzeentchlingOptimusZedBrodySteelhawkAegeriElvenshaejdarksunAmiguRhesus PositiveitalianranmacrimsoncoyoteIron WeaselManOHokuto
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    No, I'm using "Wizard" for "Casts a limited number of magic spells from their spell book per day" which is what every class in 4th edition does. You can change the flavor text all you want, but every class in fourth ed is casting spells from a spell book for their actions. They're all wizards.

    At the risk of being pedantic, that description can also apply to the 3E versions of Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger and sort of Barbarian if you squint at daily rages right. With Bard and Sorceror being mild variations on the same mechanical theme. In the core book, that pretty much leaves sword guy and dagger/crossbow guy that don't fit this construction.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    AegeriElvenshae
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    No, I'm using "Wizard" for "Casts a limited number of magic spells from their spell book per day" which is what every class in 4th edition does. You can change the flavor text all you want, but every class in fourth ed is casting spells from a spell book for their actions. They're all wizards.

    Characters of every class in 3.X and 5e have abilities they can only use a limited number of times a day.

    I know how spell books worked in 3.X and 5e, and they aren't comparable to how 4e powers worked.

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    AegeriElvenshae
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    You know, at this point its pretty obvious we don't see eye to eye on 4th ed. I feel like we're going in circles, so why don't we just drop it and discuss a different subject?

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Sounds good.

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    OptimusZed
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Cool. So, professional miniature painting is stupid expensive. I mean, really freaking expensive. A couple years ago I bought into the Robotech Tactics kickstarter because I love Robotech and I love minis. I didn't realize at the time they were coming unpainted (because I'm dumb and don't read things carefully). I have arthritis, so I figured I'd splurge and look for someone else to paint them. I figured I'd be looking at something like $10/mini or so. When I looked into it, though, all I could find were places charging like $50+/mini. I just about had a heart attack at what they were asking. So, I still have a box of unpainted minis here. It makes me sad.

    PSN|AspectVoid
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    I think there is another thread about that. lol

    And 4E talk should be banned. Every time some says "4E" and "Wizards" in the same breath, we have these arguments.

    /sarcasm slightly

  • RainfallRainfall Dungeon Queen Registered User regular
    So for those of you who are interested in modern myth and classical mythologies, Onyx Path put up their Scion "Alpha Slice" which is a pretty clear mission statement on where they want to go with the game.

    I've gotta say, it looks a hell of a lot smoother and more modern than Scion ever did.

    tzeentchlingPMAvers
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    But will the core book be large enough to stop a bullet?

    PSN|AspectVoid
    Amigu
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    But will the core book be large enough to stop a bullet?

    Depends on whether you back it at the Kevlar insert level.

    "The shore does not dream of you." - Blind poet Gallan.
    Fuselage
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »

    To me this critique is flatly bizarre, and (not to attack) it feels like the type of complaint I'd hear from someone looking through the PHB and/or building characters, but not actually playing. I've played a few different characters in 4e and I don't think I've ever had them feel samey at all. To the point of even playing 3 different Str/Wis builds (Warlord, Paladin, Cleric) that all felt wildly different, even though you could argue those should feel very similar, they really didn't at all.

    This right here is exactly why my group did not latch on to 4e. They thought the tactical aspects were pretty cool and how the Warlord in particular allowed some actions that were not possible in 3e. But after that one session I rammed down their throats and flipping through the pub, they were done. Alas.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Cool. So, professional miniature painting is stupid expensive. I mean, really freaking expensive. A couple years ago I bought into the Robotech Tactics kickstarter because I love Robotech and I love minis. I didn't realize at the time they were coming unpainted (because I'm dumb and don't read things carefully). I have arthritis, so I figured I'd splurge and look for someone else to paint them. I figured I'd be looking at something like $10/mini or so. When I looked into it, though, all I could find were places charging like $50+/mini. I just about had a heart attack at what they were asking. So, I still have a box of unpainted minis here. It makes me sad.

    Factor in how much time each mini takes to paint, combine with cost of paints and such... no wonder it's expensive.

    wpyz0Y5.png
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  • RainfallRainfall Dungeon Queen Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    But will the core book be large enough to stop a bullet?

    It looks like they're trying to go in the opposite direction of Exalted, so way less in the way of discrete powers. Thank goodness.

  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    It's not a real RPG rulebook unless it can tank small arms fire.
    I can assure you that I could shoot you through even that monstrosity.

    Then clearly more stretch goals are in order.
    There's a metal-binding backer award that I'm still pretty sure I could shoot you through.

    Note to self: always let Ardent win.
    Technically it's the .308 that's winning here. But for reference, I have shot through the door of a Toyota Hilux with a 7.62x51mm (think of this as the military version of the .308, for non-gun people) so I'm confident we can do this book thing. Although now that I think about it, if I fired tracer rounds at it, I could probably set it on fire too.

    Hm...

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
    SutibunRi
  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    The new Delta Green is real good you guys.

    Real good.

    Aegeri
  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    It updates the setting perfectly for a world where mythos magic has to be contextualized against 9/11. It's got a substantially different feel to the original.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    Ardent wrote: »
    Some of you probably noted I specified granular crunch and didn't just say crunch. That's because crunch itself isn't inherently opposed to narrativist games. It's only when you seek granularity that exceeds the level of fidelity you actually need to realize your setting (or build a toolbox with 60 sockets when 12 will do) that it becomes problematic.

    Lots of interesting points but this strikes me as a really key insight.
    4e is the gamist branch of game designs. Lots of things in 4e are the way they are because it makes the gameplay interesting. Where you find your true "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" levels of crunch are simulationist games where things have to be "realistic".

    Another great point. I hadn't really made the distinction between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' in my mind but it's way more nuanced than 'story vs crunch'.
    Which could be completely solved with a good companion app to track those things...
    I'm still waiting for the first game to really pull that off.

    Yessss a lot of things are being "digitally disrupted" (I hate that term because it's so overused) and a game system that makes good, creative use of the interplay between PnP and digital apps would create some great new play experiences.

    Something else I'd like to do sometime is survey how many people spend time playing RPGs vs time perusing dense RPG books and fantasising about playing. I think that a lot of these super dense tombs are a product of the latter.

    BitD PbP Character Volstrom
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  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    AspectVoid wrote: »
    Cool. So, professional miniature painting is stupid expensive. I mean, really freaking expensive. A couple years ago I bought into the Robotech Tactics kickstarter because I love Robotech and I love minis. I didn't realize at the time they were coming unpainted (because I'm dumb and don't read things carefully). I have arthritis, so I figured I'd splurge and look for someone else to paint them. I figured I'd be looking at something like $10/mini or so. When I looked into it, though, all I could find were places charging like $50+/mini. I just about had a heart attack at what they were asking. So, I still have a box of unpainted minis here. It makes me sad.

    Have you considered just giving them a white base coat? I find that minis look pretty damn nice when they're just white (you can do it with a spray can of the right paint) because it brings out all the details.

    Not a total solution but could make them more fun to use in an RPG and you can always have them painted properly when you come across some $$$

    BitD PbP Character Volstrom
    QEz1Jw1.png
  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    Hmmm. The Exalted 3rd book is pretty damn thick. Not quite ReFRED though.


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    italianranma
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Rainfall wrote: »
    So for those of you who are interested in modern myth and classical mythologies, Onyx Path put up their Scion "Alpha Slice" which is a pretty clear mission statement on where they want to go with the game.

    I've gotta say, it looks a hell of a lot smoother and more modern than Scion ever did.
    Neall hired Vance. For those of you familiar with Ex3, Vance is the guy who wrote sorcery and martial arts. Realistically, he probably should have been the guy writing everything. As one of my group noted "The only things anyone has any questions about are mechanics that are common to the system like counterattacks, not things specifically that Vance wrote."

    With that said, I don't condone financially supporting Onyx Path.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Amigu wrote: »
    4e is the gamist branch of game designs. Lots of things in 4e are the way they are because it makes the gameplay interesting. Where you find your true "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" levels of crunch are simulationist games where things have to be "realistic".

    Another great point. I hadn't really made the distinction between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' in my mind but it's way more nuanced than 'story vs crunch'.

    I usually think of it as three legs. Simulationist, Gamist, Narrativist.

    A Simulationist system asks "How can we make this work like the real world?"
    A Gamist system asks "How can I make this work as a game?"
    A Narrativist system asks "How can we make this work like it would in stories?"

    I've also made it sound like they're all binaries (well, ternaries) where you must be one or the other which isn't really true. Systems are a mix of the three attitudes and while the stronger one gets the weaker the other two become they're all needed to a certain extent.

    italianranma
  • RainfallRainfall Dungeon Queen Registered User regular
    Ardent wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    So for those of you who are interested in modern myth and classical mythologies, Onyx Path put up their Scion "Alpha Slice" which is a pretty clear mission statement on where they want to go with the game.

    I've gotta say, it looks a hell of a lot smoother and more modern than Scion ever did.
    Neall hired Vance. For those of you familiar with Ex3, Vance is the guy who wrote sorcery and martial arts. Realistically, he probably should have been the guy writing everything. As one of my group noted "The only things anyone has any questions about are mechanics that are common to the system like counterattacks, not things specifically that Vance wrote."

    With that said, I don't condone financially supporting Onyx Path.

    Given that in just over a month it will be three years since I gave Rich Thomas money for my Deluxe Ex3 Core, plus every other damn thing they've pulled, yeah. Onyx Path is shit.

    Ardent
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I think there is another thread about that. lol

    And 4E talk should be banned. Every time some says "4E" and "Wizards" in the same breath, we have these arguments.

    /sarcasm slightly

    Aww, but I didn't get a chance to argue...

    In all seriousness I always took the argument as one where the "wizard" was able to overcome challenges because of either creative or intended use from the wide variety of spells at their disposal. Which is cool, except that their kit can negate the need for the kit of other classes. It wasn't the in-battle stuff that broke the game (at earlier levels) it was spells like Fly or Invisibility. To turn it back around on the greater spectrum of games, it's very important to me when I find a new game to make sure that one can't build a character that excludes the other characters. In EotE, for example, even though Jedi are pretty powerful (with a large investment) their powers can't really break the game. Or by the time that they can the other characters have multiple specialties that no amount of devotion to an ancient religion can replace like piloting, computers, and mechanics. Even in combat most of the heavy weaponry and heavy weaponry skills are much more potent.

    To turn it around to something slightly different, I hate systems that rely on having a cleric. Which is to say any system that takes for granted that the party will be taking steady damage that must be healed with limited resources that only come from one party member. This is especially true when that kind of healing is narratively extremely rare. I like it better when damage prevention is the standard, though that does tend to make combat much more swingy...

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
    Elvenshae
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    Hmmm. The Exalted 3rd book is pretty damn thick. Not quite ReFRED though.


    And now I know how I'm going to dispose of all my old RPGs.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Amigu wrote: »
    4e is the gamist branch of game designs. Lots of things in 4e are the way they are because it makes the gameplay interesting. Where you find your true "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME" levels of crunch are simulationist games where things have to be "realistic".

    Another great point. I hadn't really made the distinction between 'gamist' and 'simulationist' in my mind but it's way more nuanced than 'story vs crunch'.

    I usually think of it as three legs. Simulationist, Gamist, Narrativist.

    A Simulationist system asks "How can we make this work like the real world?"
    A Gamist system asks "How can I make this work as a game?"
    A Narrativist system asks "How can we make this work like it would in stories?"

    I've also made it sound like they're all binaries (well, ternaries) where you must be one or the other which isn't really true. Systems are a mix of the three attitudes and while the stronger one gets the weaker the other two become they're all needed to a certain extent.

    A good visual aid for this is the Tall-Fat-Muscular triangle slider you see in a lot of videogames for character creation.

    In order to be a game, or anything else really, you have to be 100% total somethings. But those somethings can exist in different ratios to get different end results. And you can't be 0% any of the three. 0% Simulationist doesn't actually feel like anything you can relate to, 0% Narrativist won't let you tell stories and 0% Gamist literally can't be played.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    Endless_SerpentsDevoutlyApathetic
  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    I like my games how I like my women, short, intelligent and fun.

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    and preferably with duel laser swords.

    ElvenshaeArdentitalianranma
  • FuselageFuselage Bantha Three ValhallaRegistered User regular
    and preferably with duel laser swords.

    http://i.imgur.com/j3DnMw5.jpg

    Elvenshae
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    4e is a brilliant game. It is bare bones "these are the things that are good for playing the games where everyone is good" and that is an excellent way to build an RPG. I think its biggest detriment was being called D&D. It's a much better game on the whole than D&D, as should be made clear by the "why aren't casters sooooooooo much better than worthless martials?" threads that cropped up everywhere in its wake.

    One of the important things to remember when you're running a game -- any game -- is that if the rules are interfering with the game then you should ignore the rules. But the flipside of this is when you're writing rules for games, you should write the minimum amount of rules to get the game moving smoothly and then you can introduce options in future supplements.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I will agree that 4E was a well designed game, just not a well designed D&D game.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    People have differing ideas of what D&D was, is, and should be.

    I do not think there has ever existed an actual platonic version of D&D where everyone who has played and enjoyed D&D could look at it and go "yup, that's good D&D right there"

    5e notwithstanding, there are reasons beyond "we want people to buy all the books again" for why they shook the rules up each edition.

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  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    D&D 4e has a special place in my heart. I remember going into an LGS one day before work and saw the new books and I gave them a quick glance and I just fell in love with the at-will, encounter and daily system and all I had seen was just the little colored boxes for them. I was even looking at the class enteu for Fighters. "Wow, look at all the cool stuff Fighters can do! It's not just attack, attack, attack all the time". I ended up buying the PHB, DMG and Monster Manual pack next time I went to the store.

    For me, 4e was just right, mechanically speaking. Very rarely did I run into a situation where the rules didn't at least provide a guideline for resolution, if not outright told you how to resolve it. Skill challenges were a weaker point, but the ruleset was tight.

    In my opinion, 4e is one of the best games for flat role playing and story telling. I've seen plenty of criticism against 4e about how it was "all about the combat" and didn't leave room for "role" playing. And in a way, I get that. Very little space in the 4e books talks about story or narrative or anything like that. But, for me, I don't need my PHB to tell me how to roleplay, I need it to tell me how to resolve my actions in the game. So to have a game with such a well put together ruleset lets me, as a player, focus more time on my character's actions and motivations and less on how do I resolve those actions. I would posit that 4e's "combat above all else" reputation is from groups playing it that way and not by any intentional design.

    As a DM, 4e was even better for storytelling. Again, the tightness of the rules allows more narration and less adjudication. The easy encounter formula made session prep much easier. Not to mention the terrific tools and resources Wizards made available if you were willing to pay for it (which I definitely did). I was able to focus a lot more on my campaign story because it was easy to not only prepare but also run the 4e rules.

    Obviously, not every ruleset is for everyone and I won't disparage anyone who doesn't like 4e, but I love it.

    dresdenphileOptimusZedToxElvenshae
  • ArdentArdent Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    I will agree that 4E was a well designed game, just not a well designed D&D game.
    This is a ridiculous statement.

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    AegeriEdith Upwards
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    It's like you said, it was to its detriment that it was called D&D, because people who wanted D&D didn't want 4E, which is why wizards ran away from it screaming.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I wanted D&D, and 4E delivered it.

    Perhaps you should rework your definitions of some of these words.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    AegeriElvenshaeRhesus PositiveDarkPrimus
  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    Do Wizards still offer the online character creator for 4th ed?

    BitD PbP Character Volstrom
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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited May 2016
    4th Edition DnD was the last edition of DnD I ran for a long time (I've already moved on from 5E and only run it at conventions) because it was actually functional. Additionally, "DnD" now means to a lot of people "Pathfinder", which is essentially just 3.5 with extra stuff thrown at it to see what sticks. 4E was the only edition of DnD where I could sit down each week and make every combat sing precisely the way I wanted. If I needed a fight that dragged my players to the very brink of death, but didn't quite kill them, I could easily achieve that. Likewise, the game was extremely well balanced from the players side and while there was a degree of optimization, it was enormously hard to make characters that were useless. This was an incredible benefit for the game as it made it much less "System mastery" style bullshit that older editions had. As long as you had classes that filled each role, you had a functional party that was generally competent, something that 5E just went and dropped the ball on again (it's entirely possible to make characters that just fail to do their role whatsoever once again).

    Minding, since then I have firmly begun to believe in the wonder of 13th Age, which is one of my favourite fantasy systems. It does most of what 4E does with some nice compromises in places, such as in the area of complexity. It does gridless combat infinitely better than 5E and still manages to have tactical combat that can be as deep as 4E (when required). Plus its monster building concepts and ideas are nigh perfect for me. Dragons, as an example, not having set abilities but rather choosing from a long list to customize them to the encounter you want to make is just A+++ clever design (and an extension of what 4E was already doing).

    Honestly at this point, I have no interest in 5E and the system hasn't done anything to win me over from other ones that do the same thing much better (13th Age normally for me, but if I want broken full of infinite possibilities and options I would run Pathfinder).

    Aegeri on
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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    edited May 2016
    I have maintained for a long time that had 4e and Pathfinder been released by the opposite company under the other name, there wouldn't have been nearly as much hate for what 4e is and it would probably still be supported. Likewise had the 4e ruleset been called 13th Age or what-have-you. To me a lot of what people simply can't stand about 4e is that it is called D&D, even though for another large group of people (myself included) it is the definitive edition.

    Tox on
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  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Also 4E, to this day, still had the absolute best electronic tools available to it. The monster builder alone was one of the best constructed and most useful pieces of tech I have ever seen for a tabletop roleplaying game. Not to mention their offline character builder before they fucked everything with the dreadful online one, was utterly amazing.

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    ArdentDarkPrimusMoridin889
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    If you can track it down, the offline character builder for 4E could even be used to create custom classes and other material, just by copying and altering some files.

    My old one had Cyborg and Cyber Knight classes built into it, along with psi-stalker and dog boy as playable races. And a ton of sci-fi reskins of weapons.

    It was truly a golden age.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
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