[Roleplaying Games] New Year, New Dungeons, Same Ol' Bane

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    edited December 2016
    So I've been thinking about Deus Ex and that last game and I'm wondering what system might work for it. I'm thinking maybe Eclipse Phase or Transhumanity's Fate or Shadowrun. Still piecing together the story hooks but it would be set after Mankind Divided's bad ending.

    Grunt's Ghosts on
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    The Sprawl?

    ArcanisTheImpotent
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I kinda have to share this as my hype for getting Protagonist Archive and my miniatures as a second Christmas next month grows:

    Fuselage
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    I'm not a fan of PbtA.

    MrVyngaard
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I can't even conceptualize a reason to hack something into Eclipse Phase.

    Maybe as part of some overwrought thesis for your Doctorate of Gaming or something.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    Hahnsoo1ArdentElvenshaeDevoutlyApatheticArcanisTheImpotentMrVyngaardElldren
  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    Generally you hack out of a bad game engine into something not horrifying.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
    ArcanisTheImpotent
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Considering all the hacking we've done in this thread of games over the years, we all should have PhDs in Game Design. Or Masters Degrees...

  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.

    Grunt's Ghostscrimsoncoyote
  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
    AuralynxOptimusZedThe EnderMarshmallowArcanisTheImpotentMrVyngaardElldrenEdith Upwards
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    It's not bad in absolute terms. It's not deeply broken or anything like that.

    It's just so dense and counter intuitive that it's almost impossible to learn, much less teach.

    For me personally, there's a ton of unnecessary complexity that doesn't actually seem support the themes in any real way, and I can't I'm good conscience ask potential players to do the hours of reading necessary to play the damn thing.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    The EnderElldren
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.

    crimsoncoyote
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    From a pure crunch standpoint, the more crunch you have in a system, the less likely you'll be able to easily port anything into that system. The crunch often paints details that are very specific to the setting or the mechanics.

    I can't imagine really porting anything into Eclipse Phase that isn't just a small component element of Eclipse Phase. That would be like playing Shadowrun while cutting out all of the magic or Dungeons and Dragons without spellcasters. It sounds totally reasonable if the conversion is that simple.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
    Elldren
  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.
    I consider multi-hour character creation a significant barrier to goodness, but once you start playing it's not bad. However, every time you move to a different planet you basically have to do character creation again.

    So.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I can't imagine really porting anything into Eclipse Phase that isn't just a small component element of Eclipse Phase. That would be like playing Shadowrun while cutting out all of the magic or Dungeons and Dragons without spellcasters. It sounds totally reasonable if the conversion is that simple.
    Playing D&D without spellcasters is easy. Pick up 4th Ed, don't let folk be [Arcane || Divine] classes. Still plays great too.

    ElvenshaeArdentOptimusZedDenadaMatevMsAnthropyKayne Red RobeArcanisTheImpotentElldren
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.
    I consider multi-hour character creation a significant barrier to goodness, but once you start playing it's not bad. However, every time you move to a different planet you basically have to do character creation again.

    So.

    The nice(?) thing about eclipse phase character creation is that once you've done it, it's basically done. Barring tweaks for morphs and restacking after a death. But you're pretty much guaranteed that the character you make will be around for the duration of the game, barring getting Titan virused or something.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    crimsoncoyote
  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    I don't know, the crunch for EP is a little obtuse at the front end, but in the end isn't it just "roll d100, get under your stat, '11, 22, 33...' are crits, and 'DoS' is just whoever gets the higher number with busting"? And the stat is a combination of skill+character stat, and character stats are a combination of Ego+Morph. Which is admittedly a little down the rabbit hole...

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson

    Steam: Korvalain
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.

    If you're into hyper crunchy games then eclipse phase is a good example of that. In my experience the sort of people who like to roll a die to see which direction a missed grenade scatters, and then also roll another die to determine it's distance, are also the sort of player who actually prefer a character generation system which takes a million years but allows a huge degree of mechanically detailed freedom.

    Auralynx
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Hahnsoo1 wrote: »
    I can't imagine really porting anything into Eclipse Phase that isn't just a small component element of Eclipse Phase. That would be like playing Shadowrun while cutting out all of the magic or Dungeons and Dragons without spellcasters. It sounds totally reasonable if the conversion is that simple.
    Playing D&D without spellcasters is easy. Pick up 4th Ed, don't let folk be [Arcane || Divine] classes. Still plays great too.
    That's what I'm saying! You could do it, if your game is a small subset of an existing game.

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    I've never been able to play Eclipse Phase. So few people I know want to learn it and even less want to run it.

    But the story itself is what keeps me reading it. Other than the Players Handbook for 4E or 13th Age Core Book, it might be my most read RPG book I own.

  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Actually their book Transhuman I think it is called has guidelines for pretty decently rapid well fleshed out character creation. If you really want to min max something specific it can take a while but it took me about 20 minutes to wind up with my randomly created but hilarious Neo pig smuggler Ham solo.

  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Also for eclipse phase its not as bad as redoing your character every time you move to a new planet/area. Basically your character is split into ego and morph the ego stuff all basically stays the same from area to area. The morph stuff is based on whatever chasis you are uploaded into. A lot of the ones you wind up with are pretty generic and don't add a lot or detract a lot from your character. basically think of it more of a player character getting a new set of power armor or a new vehicle when he goes world to world because thats basically all the morph is. A vehicle your brain drives around.

    Grunt's GhostscrimsoncoyoteElldren
  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.

    The game is relatively fine in play; it's an example of those older high crunch "must model specific situations with specific rules! We need tables for things!" systems that have fallen out of favor these days. I think it would be smoother as a BRP-derivative; the current Delta Green rules would handle it adroitly with a few modifications. But it's basically fine.

    It's character creation that is a god-awful nightmare from Hell.

  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    On the subject of Dues Ex in EP though, I'm not really sure what you would need to change rules wise? I haven't actually played the video games, but from my tangential exposure, Dues Ex is basically EP: Before the Fall?

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

    The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson

    Steam: Korvalain
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    EP sounds way too transhumanist for Deus Ex. Deus Ex dips its toe into it but unless there are some big story shifts I haven't heard about in Mankind Divided, it never really dives in.

    The divide between pre and post-transhumanism is pretty significant to cyberpunk, so picking one over the other means you're gonna get a very different game.

    OptimusZedCaptain CarrotElldren
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.

    If you're into hyper crunchy games then eclipse phase is a good example of that. In my experience the sort of people who like to roll a die to see which direction a missed grenade scatters, and then also roll another die to determine it's distance, are also the sort of player who actually prefer a character generation system which takes a million years but allows a huge degree of mechanically detailed freedom.

    Speaking as someone who loves building characters in other systems, I found Eclipse Phase to be rather uninspiring in this regard. There are very few bright line character options, so every character ends up feeling like a derivitive of some Ur Character. Those derivitives can get pretty far apart in terms of capability, certainly. But I found it really hard to care whether a given skill was 30 or 50, or if the max on my morph was a few points higher or lower than the last one.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    Elldren
  • RendRend Registered User regular
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Rend wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Ardent wrote: »
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.
    It takes about 8 hours to create a character the first time.

    Right yeah I know the game is crunchy, but is it bad? My impression of it was that, if you were into the complex details and stuff, the game was good.

    If you're into hyper crunchy games then eclipse phase is a good example of that. In my experience the sort of people who like to roll a die to see which direction a missed grenade scatters, and then also roll another die to determine it's distance, are also the sort of player who actually prefer a character generation system which takes a million years but allows a huge degree of mechanically detailed freedom.

    Speaking as someone who loves building characters in other systems, I found Eclipse Phase to be rather uninspiring in this regard. There are very few bright line character options, so every character ends up feeling like a derivitive of some Ur Character. Those derivitives can get pretty far apart in terms of capability, certainly. But I found it really hard to care whether a given skill was 30 or 50, or if the max on my morph was a few points higher or lower than the last one.

    Perhaps the biggest flaw of any d100 system is that skills are either 80 or 0.
    Which is a thing I hate, for sure, but eh. The d100 systems I've played have all been unique and attractive enough in setting that I've suffered through that complaint relatively silently.

    Qualities, positive and negative, are hit or miss. There are some inspiring ones. If you've got a concept in mind and some qualities agree with it you're good, otherwise you feel very underwhelmed.

    That being said, the gear, morph, and reputation options in my opinion give eclipse phase char-gen enough oomph that it can be legitimately enjoyable.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    So I've been thinking about Deus Ex and that last game and I'm wondering what system might work for it. I'm thinking maybe Eclipse Phase or Transhumanity's Fate or Shadowrun. Still piecing together the story hooks but it would be set after Mankind Divided's bad ending.

    I'd play a FATE game of Deus Ex. All you really need are Stunts/an Aspect or two to describe the character's augments. Oh, and what bad ending?

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Yeah, back to the original idea, I think Fate or Heroic Cortex would probably do the job just fine.

    If you were feeling adventurous, Ninjas & Superspies will also do Deus Ex if you just make the needed adjustments to personal communications tech invented since the 80's.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    jdarksun
  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    edited December 2016
    It would run fine in Spycraft or Gumshoe, at that.

    Ardent on
    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
    OptimusZedHahnsoo1MrVyngaard
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I've actually been kicking around the changes if make to the Night's Black Agents formulation of gumshoe to do something more cyber punk. It's honestly not much. I'd probably just write up some cherries that represent augs and it would work just fine.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    Ashen Stars already has augmentations written up, if you just want to go ye olde cred for cred method.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
    OptimusZed
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    That's true. I haven't taken a look at those in depth, yet.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Is Eclipse Phase bad? The impression I got of it was that it was crunchy but good.

    In terms of presentation, I think I'd award it a B minus.. Certainly not bad, but the pages are too busy & most of the ornate border decoration doesn't accomplish the job of either looking striking or making the color of the work pop. Artwork is very good & used well, and the author respects red/green colorblindness, so that brings the score up against the poor formatting.


    In terms of layout: too much fluff right up front. I have talked to many, many people about this to make sure it isn't just my own bias: nobody likes have to crawl through 10+ pages of fluff & introductory text before getting to character creation. Eclipse Phase starts character creation on page 128. Terrible choice. F.


    In terms of character creation: ...Well, just look at this garbage.

    e-c-character.jpg

    Now, it is the modern era & there are good character creation apps available (like this one), supported by the publisher, that assist in simplifying the process. So I'm not going to flunk it outright - but this is still nonsense. No game needs that level of skill granularity; neither the players or GM gains anything for the amount of time they have to spend dicking around with the skills. Implants & gear can also get finicky, but at least you're getting quite a bit of mileage in terms of your choices impacting what you'll be doing in the game & supporting the theme. The game could probably get rid of at last half of the character attributes, too, but whatever; the real crime is the 90s era highly specific skill list that pays no dividends. D minus.


    In terms of mechanics: It's fine. I like crunchy games, this is a crunchy game that will feel very gamey when you get into combat. If you like that kind of thing you'll like what Eclipse Phase does, probably, and if you hate that kind of thing you'll wish you had a physical copy of the rules so you could burn them (...in keep with the spirit of the game, perhaps you could download the PDF just to put it in your recycle bin and threaten it every day by threatening to empty the trash). It doesn't do anything that blew my socks off or struck me as really supporting the theme, but it also doesn't do anything offensive or unintuitive or 90s-era stupid. B plus.


    In terms of theme / setting: The concept is more interesting than the delivery, unfortunately. Fiction writing is not the strong suit of whomever was tasked with putting together the setting information. We spend over a hundred pages, flicking between a variety of narrators & PoVs - neither of which I found particularly compelling or interesting, but ymmv - to get the image of a transhuman, post-scarcity setting that has gone the way of D&D's Points of Light rather than Star Trek. I never felt a punch or read something than made me feel invested in the setting beyond the extremely intriguing premise. The author(s) also, IMHO, lean far too heavily on attempting to tough talk at the reader as a gimmick to try and create a sense of tension / drama in lieu of actually being able to bring genuine tension / drama to the table (again, ymmv). My high watermark for the type of setting writing Eclipse Phase seemed to want to do would be how the 40k core rule books present their lore information, and EC isn't even in the same league much less the same ballpark.

    Editing overall seems pretty good, though. I'm sure a grammar Nazi would be able to go to town on it, but I'm not a grammar Nazi and no glaring spelling or punctuation errors distracted me from the text. I'll give it a C minus in aggregate.


    In totality, as something that is more than simply the sum of it's parts: I do think Eclipse Phase is a pretty good experience overall, with the caveat that you are willing to use a phone & some apps as aids for both gameplay & character creation (and the larger caveat that you must enjoy crunchy systems that intentionally segue into tactical miniatures combat for encounters). There aren't many games that do what EC does in terms of setting, and frankly it can feel nice to play a game that uses a core dice mechanics other than 1d20 or 3d6 without feeling like it is fucking things up for the sake of being different. Considering how popular the tropes are, there are surprisingly few TT games that let you play as a tricked-out cyber-ninja or the equivalent of Adam Jensen, so that's also a big plus. The combat math also feel about right; encounters tend to be short & satisfying without being so lethal that they feel too random / mindless. B plus probably; maybe an A minus if I'm feeling charitable.

    With Love and Courage
    RingoArdentGrunt's GhostsBrodyArcanisTheImpotent
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    Got my 17 pounds of 40k RPG books from the FFG fire holiday sale just now.

    If only I could get a hold of Only War and another copy of Dark Heresy core book... my Black Library copy is a bit beaten up, nevermind the dozens of pages of errata I have for it...

    dt3GeqU.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    If you like that kind of thing you'll like what Eclipse Phase does, probably, and if you hate that kind of thing you'll wish you had a physical copy of the rules so you could burn them (...in keep with the spirit of the game, perhaps you could download the PDF just to put it in your recycle bin and threaten it every day by threatening to empty the trash).
    This is doable since the core book pdf is free on their site.

    So I've been thinking about Deus Ex and that last game and I'm wondering what system might work for it. I'm thinking maybe Eclipse Phase or Transhumanity's Fate or Shadowrun. Still piecing together the story hooks but it would be set after Mankind Divided's bad ending.

    I'd play a FATE game of Deus Ex. All you really need are Stunts/an Aspect or two to describe the character's augments. Oh, and what bad ending?

    Deus Ex spoilers
    In the game, there is a UN law called "Human Restoration Act", an Illuminati-backed law that would permanently segregate augmented and non-augmented people. If the player saves a guy, Nathaniel Brown, then the law doesn't pass. But a group called Augmented Rights Coalition, once a peaceful group, will blow up buildings and kill thousands of people. If you don't save Brown, the law passes and you get the bad ending, which is a world that augs are second class citizens and the ARC has a ton if support as a terrorist group.

  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I definitely would not try to play that with Eclipse Phase. It is the Wrong Side of Cyberpunk for that premise.

    OptimusZedMrVyngaard
  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler Registered User regular
    edited December 2016
    That feel when you read DX:MD spoilers in the RPG thread, then can't remember if you finished MD.

    Edit: Sep 15 @ 12:06am, and I can't remember anything about it. Except... sewers.

    jdarksun on
  • CarnarvonCarnarvon Registered User regular
    I couldn't find a Shadowrun thread, but I was wondering, has anyone here played Shadowrun: Anarchy? I'm trying to get a handle on the Cue system but the book doesn't really give me a sense on how the system is different from the regular RPG experience. I keep reading about how players can influence what's happening, but not how.

  • ArdentArdent Down UpsideRegistered User regular
    Carnarvon wrote: »
    I couldn't find a Shadowrun thread, but I was wondering, has anyone here played Shadowrun: Anarchy? I'm trying to get a handle on the Cue system but the book doesn't really give me a sense on how the system is different from the regular RPG experience. I keep reading about how players can influence what's happening, but not how.
    From what I've heard it's a huge disappointment. Haven't played it, though.

    Steam ID | Origin ID: ArdentX | Uplay ID: theardent | Battle.net: Ardent#11476
  • Fleur de AlysFleur de Alys Biohacker Registered User regular
    edited December 2016
    There's something about games with tons of skill / ability granularity like in the EP image above that fills me with a weird excitement. In appearance, they offer the promise of being able to do so many things. It suggests content that just goes on forever, systems that interact with each other in weird and wonderful ways, characters that are as unique in their numbers as they are in their personalities and backstories.

    But then the game inevitably disappoints. The massive list of possibilities collapses into either a "did anyone happen to pick the right one for this adventure" check or a "just make up a way to use one of your skills in this situation, the details don't actually matter after all" sort of fail.

    It seems like this is something that tabletop games should do better than video games since tabletop can rely on players thinking outside the box and going off the prepared trails, but that inevitably seems to lead to the second above failure state of the design. Whereas most video games that attempt this just fail to do anything useful with the majority of the skills, making them traps for naive beginners who don't already know the "correct" choices to make in character creation (yes hello Daggerfall).

    I guess it could be fun to see Paradox Development Studio take on the concept of a crunchy computerized RPG. I feel like you need automation to keep all the required mechanics from bogging everything down, and if nothing else Paradox has repeatedly demonstrated mastery of creating games that have many dozens of traits and modifiers that can apply to all kinds of interconnected subsystems. I almost wonder if there's anything that could be learned there for tabletop application, but I think it's too math-y of a design even to use as inspiration.

    Fleur de Alys on
    Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
    ElvenshaeThe EnderArcanisTheImpotentGokerz
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