We are all tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free of this [Election]

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  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    John Kasich balanced the budget.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    brownbeck probably balanced the budget too. for one year anyway

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  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    Earlier this morning my doorbell rang but I could not answer right away, still waking up. Got to the door about a minute later, no one was there but on the door step was a Cruz flyer, the first "support X prez candidate" literature I've seen left at my door this season.

    Literal first thought upon seeing it: "So, it has begun..."

    For reference, I live in Indiana, so primaries are coming up in a few weeks.

    You in the north or south? Up here in NWI theres a bunch of student groups getting together to push for Bernie but I know from experience southern Indiana is red as it comes
    Earlier this morning my doorbell rang but I could not answer right away, still waking up. Got to the door about a minute later, no one was there but on the door step was a Cruz flyer, the first "support X prez candidate" literature I've seen left at my door this season.

    Literal first thought upon seeing it: "So, it has begun..."

    For reference, I live in Indiana, so primaries are coming up in a few weeks.

    Dude, go early vote. It took me like 20 minutes including driving.

    This is not an option in Indiana, I have looked

    Bucketman on
  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    I guess Bill Clinton made some fun choice comments again today.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/15/politics/bill-clinton-bernie-sanders-shoot-wall-street/index.html

    he came out later and said it was a joke and people need to have more of a sense of humor. Damn it bill, its not the 90's anymore. We are much less humorous about these things.

    Bucketman on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Bucketman wrote: »
    I guess Bill Clinton made some fun choice comments again today.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/15/politics/bill-clinton-bernie-sanders-shoot-wall-street/index.html

    he came out later and said it was a joke and people need to have more of a sense of humor. Damn it bill, its not the 90's anymore. We are much less humorous about these things.

    Bill has been the worst part of Hillary's campaign this time around.

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  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister Registered User regular
    Bill Clinton is kind of a crazy old hillbilly

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  • Death of RatsDeath of Rats Registered User regular
    Bucketman wrote: »
    I guess Bill Clinton made some fun choice comments again today.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/15/politics/bill-clinton-bernie-sanders-shoot-wall-street/index.html

    he came out later and said it was a joke and people need to have more of a sense of humor. Damn it bill, its not the 90's anymore. We are much less humorous about these things.

    Bill has been the worst part of Hillary's campaign this time around.

    If that's the case it's a huge improvement.

    No I don't.
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Bucketman wrote: »
    I guess Bill Clinton made some fun choice comments again today.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/15/politics/bill-clinton-bernie-sanders-shoot-wall-street/index.html

    he came out later and said it was a joke and people need to have more of a sense of humor. Damn it bill, its not the 90's anymore. We are much less humorous about these things.

    Bill has been the worst part of Hillary's campaign this time around.

    If that's the case it's a huge improvement.

    I'm sure that goes without saying.

  • Beef AvengerBeef Avenger Registered User regular
    Yo Bill, shut the fuck up

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  • OghulkOghulk biggest externality low-energy economistRegistered User regular
    I'd think Bill would just stay out of the spotlight

    Sure, go rally the big name donors behind public doors, but like

    Why would you let him go talk in public? There's so much shit from his presidency for people to talk about, and then he goes on to say shit like this

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  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Not on Any Podcast or Affliated Don't Even Own a MikeRegistered User regular
    Bill Clinton is used to striking his opponents hard.
    It works well when his opponents are Republicans (see his campaigning in 2012),
    his attempts at ridicule, his method of campaigning,
    is seen as quite gross when leveled at young democratic socialists,
    or the Black Live Matters movement.

    I hope the party will find unity when this election is over,
    so that all of it's strength will be at bare.

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  • SLyMSLyM Registered User regular
    John Kasich balanced the budget.

    So did every other US governor, with the single possible exception of Vermont.

    Because they aren't legally allowed not to.

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  • Virgil_Leads_YouVirgil_Leads_You Not on Any Podcast or Affliated Don't Even Own a MikeRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    SLyM wrote: »
    they aren't legally allowed not to

    so they are not, lawfully, have the permission, to not do....

    it's too much for my wee tiny intelligence.
    *Brain explodes

    edit

    wait they are not - neg
    legally allowed
    not to - neg

    They are
    legally required
    to

    got it, I'm dumb

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  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    Speaking of John... er... John... Whatshisface? Yeah, that's it.

    Apparently John Whatshisface thinks that if you're a female university student with concerns about sexual assault on campus, your best bet is to "avoid parties with alcohol."

    I know Kasich comes off as a moderate Republican when compared to Cruz or Trump, but seriously. What a rampant asshole.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    oh god hillary really caved to sanders on minimum wage as well as trade

    populism was funny when trump did it to the gop its not funny anymore leave my policy positions alone fucks sakes

  • ZenyatooZenyatoo Registered User regular
    Speaking of John... er... John... Whatshisface? Yeah, that's it.

    Apparently John Whatshisface thinks that if you're a female university student with concerns about sexual assault on campus, your best bet is to "avoid parties with alcohol."

    I know Kasich comes off as a moderate Republican when compared to Cruz or Trump, but seriously. What a rampant asshole.

    I know this is going to sound super awful but...
    Isn't that strictly speaking accurate? Most sexual assault either happens between people you are close to (see: friends/family) or at places that are considered high risk, such as parties.

    Surely you can lower your chances of crime by staying inside and never ever going anywhere.

    "Over decades, it has been shown that risk-reduction messaging is an important component
    of crime prevention overall. This approach has significantly contributed to reducing the
    number of violent and property crimes. It has a similar value in sexual violence prevention.
    Many institutions incorporate risk-reduction tips into their awareness messaging and we
    encourage the federal government to support this type of messaging.ix Many respondents —
    survivors, faculty, and others — to our survey on the issue of campus sexual assault (see
    Appendix) endorsed this view as well. "

    Like if you look at the above sentences and think "Boy what scumbag wrote that." then prepare to be surprised because that shit comes right out of the RAINN proposal to government bodies on how to cut down on sexual assault at college campuses.

    https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

    For those not in the know, here's a little bit about RAINN

    "RAINN is the nation’s largest anti-sexual violence organization. RAINN operates the
    National Sexual Assault Hotline (800.656.HOPE and online.rainn.org), which has helped
    more than 1.9 million people since its creation in 1994 (the telephone hotline is run in
    partnership with more than 1,000 local sexual assault service providers). RAINN also
    operates the DoD Safe Helpline on behalf of the Department of Defense. Additionally,
    RAINN carries out programs to prevent sexual assault, help victims, and ensure that rapists
    are brought to justice. We are encouraged by the renewed national focus on issues of
    campus sexual assault and are pleased to offer our perspective, which is based on our
    experience working on prevention on hundreds of college campuses and helping thousands
    of college students recover from their attack."


    if you are concerned about sexual assault on a college campus, then performing risk-aversive behavior is a sensible, logical goal.
    Im not suggesting you avoid every single party at college. It is college after all. And sure Kasich's message comes off a tad dickish, but a female student who never attends any parties in college WILL in fact drastically lower her chance of being sexually assaulted. He also mentioned providing colleges access to tools that help deal with rape such as confidential reporting and rape kits, which is reasonable and if anything a positive way to help.

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  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    oh man and here i thought my minimum wage thing was gonna be the biggest flamebait on this page

    seriously though Kasich's thing sounds like what most 50yo dads with daughters would say about college parties, and he talked about actual policy measures before mentioning that

    I'm really starting to hope the convention breaks his way tbh

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  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    but a female student who never attends any parties in college WILL in fact drastically lower her chance of being sexually assaulted

    It's sentences like this that make me think you don't know how campus sexual assaults actually happen.

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  • SLyMSLyM Registered User regular
    Yes, college girls going to parties are more likely to be victims of sexual assault. People going into airports are more likely to be targets of terrorist attacks. People driving home from a night shift at work are more likely to be hit by drunk drivers.

    The easiest ways to fix these problems are to change the behavior of the victims. The morally correct way is not.

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  • pookapooka Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    i know women who were assaulted by roommates. people they had obviously trusted enough to cohabitate.

    so.. don't live with other people? trust no one?

    you can take all reasonable precautions, but that doesn't negate rape culture.

    shit, the existence of spousal rape should be rather telling.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    It's more than a little victim blamey, is all.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. i did meet some of the most insufferable people but, they also met meRegistered User regular
    merely suggesting that alcohol is culpable in any way implicates that you'd be safe if you had better judgement, or that people who perform the act are only doing so because they are inebriated, and there are no societal causes for us to worry about in any way

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  • ZenyatooZenyatoo Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    but a female student who never attends any parties in college WILL in fact drastically lower her chance of being sexually assaulted

    It's sentences like this that make me think you don't know how campus sexual assaults actually happen.

    By incredibly small groups of repeat offenders? Who typically hang out at large social events where it's way easier to get away with crimes like this?

    "Dr. David Lisak estimates that three percent of college men are responsible for more than 90% of rapes."
    "Of those determined to be rapists, the majority — 63% — were repeat offenders who admitted to committing multiple sexual assaults. Overall, they found that each offender committed an average of 5.8 sexual assaults."




    Fencingsax wrote: »
    It's more than a little victim blamey, is all.

    I hate this phrase. I really do. It's understood by many (admittedly not all. There are definitely shitty people) that rape is the fault of the perpetrator and only the perpetrator. Telling someone that they are at fault for their own rape is a terrible shitty thing to do.

    With that being said.
    " it is important to educate members of a campus community on actions they can take to increase their personal safety. In fact, we believe it’s irresponsible not to do so."

    Teaching people how to be increase their safety is not victim blaming.

    I dislike using an appeal to authority but this stuff is coming directly from RAINNs literal manual on anti-rape strategizing. They wrote the book on this shit. They are by definition the greatest experts in America on Rape prevention. You can suggest they're scumbags, but they know a thing or two about helping cut down on rape. And one of their 3 major ways involves preventative education for potential victims.

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  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    Speaking of John... er... John... Whatshisface? Yeah, that's it.

    Apparently John Whatshisface thinks that if you're a female university student with concerns about sexual assault on campus, your best bet is to "avoid parties with alcohol."

    I know Kasich comes off as a moderate Republican when compared to Cruz or Trump, but seriously. What a rampant asshole.

    I know this is going to sound super awful but...
    Isn't that strictly speaking accurate? Most sexual assault either happens between people you are close to (see: friends/family) or at places that are considered high risk, such as parties.

    Surely you can lower your chances of crime by staying inside and never ever going anywhere.

    Like if you look at the above sentences and think "Boy what scumbag wrote that." then prepare to be surprised because that shit comes right out of the RAINN proposal to government bodies on how to cut down on sexual assault at college campuses.

    https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

    if you are concerned about sexual assault on a college campus, then performing risk-aversive behavior is a sensible, logical goal.
    Im not suggesting you avoid every single party at college. It is college after all. And sure Kasich's message comes off a tad dickish, but a female student who never attends any parties in college WILL in fact drastically lower her chance of being sexually assaulted. He also mentioned providing colleges access to tools that help deal with rape such as confidential reporting and rape kits, which is reasonable and if anything a positive way to help.

    Yes, by all means, let's just absolve universities and campus authorities from any and all responsibility to their students. In fact let's just go ahead and put the full onus of personal responsibility and safety on the shoulders of prospective victims! That's a great idea.

    First, Kasich isn't advocating for common sense prevention. He's essentially victim blaming, whether he wants to cop to it or not. If he has an actual interest in preventing campus sexual assault, great. Offering "friendly advice" that basically equates to "Well, you should have expected something bad to happen to you under those circumstances!" is a far cry from actually doing something to curb incidents from occurring.

    Second, that RAINN pamphlet you linked specifically says that advocating preventative measures is something that needs to be handled tactfully, with respect for the victims. John Kasich getting up on a stage, saying "I'm a father of two, and you shouldn't go to parties with alcohol if you want to be safe!" is about as far from tactful as you can get.

    Plus, it mentions that discussing preventative measures is just one solution to the problem; the university and the community still have to take an active role in helping prevent an assault from occurring, and yet I don't see Kasich publicly advising universities on how to handle the problem. That's okay, though, I'm sure he just doesn't want to alienate potentially significant contributors to his dumpster fire of a campaign.

    And as it turns out, sexual assault isn't just limited to the occasional frat party or kegger, and suggesting that's the only environment in which an assault could occur is not only short sighted, it's incredibly dangerous. Again, if Kasich's really that concerned about ensuring the safety of potential victims, he should be taking universities to task along with students. Or, fuck it, just leave the students out of it entirely and put the onus of responsibility on the university. He's not. So acting like he's making some kind of reasoned point is giving him far more benefit of the doubt than he's actually earned.

    And suggesting common sense measures like providing confidential reporting and rape kits to campuses is a far cry from actually taking proactive measures. If Kasich really wants to help victims of sexual abuse, how about donating some of that campaign money back to RAINN, or another charity with a similar goal, rather than tut-tutting at young people who he thinks should know better?

    Sill, it's all a moot point. Given Kasich's party affiliation, I'm sure he'll give his position on curbing sexual assaults on college campuses the same consideration that the rest of the Republican Party has given to the concerns of female voters over the course of this election cycle. That is to say, none at all.

    If he wants to prove me wrong, I'm all for it. Until that point, Kasich can take his self serving, borderline useless and actively harmful advice, and shove it down the same hole his campaign contributions have been going into for the past several months.

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    merely suggesting that alcohol is culpable in any way implicates that you'd be safe if you had better judgement, or that people who perform the act are only doing so because they are inebriated, and there are no societal causes for us to worry about in any way

    Implies, and it's more of a continuum of risk than absolutely safe or doomed. In fact, that paragraph is nothing but absolutes

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  • pookapooka Registered User regular
    the problem is that in most instances, the main focus is on palliative rather than preventive care.
    by putting the onus on a potential victim, the surrounding culture does not change.
    women can expect victimization at whatever rate the statistics are quoting. even if you, yourself, never experience personal assault, that aura fucks with your head. so your choice is ignorance or fear. being told ways to manage that fear is mere placation within the status quo.
    "Don't put yourself at risk" implies that you have complete control over becoming a victim (no), and forces you into an ever-vigilant, defensive mindset. shit is exhausting.

    so, yes, 'avoid parties' is shitty advice. it may be practical, but on a fundamental level, it is nearly as practical to say, never talk to anyone, never leave your house, ie, do not attempt a life in which someone may interfere. it is toothless advice that doesn't address the systemic issues and surrounding culture of why women should be self-regulating in the hope of not being victimized, and the assaulters get away with crimes that are normalized as 'the way things are.'

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  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    The association of college with wild parties never really made sense anyway

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  • Romanian My EscutcheonRomanian My Escutcheon Two of Forks Registered User regular
    edited April 2016
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    but a female student who never attends any parties in college WILL in fact drastically lower her chance of being sexually assaulted

    It's sentences like this that make me think you don't know how campus sexual assaults actually happen.

    By incredibly small groups of repeat offenders? Who typically hang out at large social events where it's way easier to get away with crimes like this?

    "Dr. David Lisak estimates that three percent of college men are responsible for more than 90% of rapes."
    "Of those determined to be rapists, the majority — 63% — were repeat offenders who admitted to committing multiple sexual assaults. Overall, they found that each offender committed an average of 5.8 sexual assaults."

    So... You're saying that multiple sexual assaults can be traced to the same incredibly small pool of potential attackers, but rather than pushing campus authorities to actually do something about that, female students should just not go to parties or leave their dorm rooms in general?

    Yeah, no, that tracks. Don't tell the cops to actually do their jobs or take steps to stop universities from burying reported sex abuse on campus, just lock your door and never leave your room.

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  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    Aww c'mon now guys, let's not pile on here. They're not victim blaming, they're just stating common sense. I mean, surely it's sensible to just avoid all risk ever, right? There's even a song about it!

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  • ZenyatooZenyatoo Registered User regular
    Zenyatoo wrote: »
    Speaking of John... er... John... Whatshisface? Yeah, that's it.

    Apparently John Whatshisface thinks that if you're a female university student with concerns about sexual assault on campus, your best bet is to "avoid parties with alcohol."

    I know Kasich comes off as a moderate Republican when compared to Cruz or Trump, but seriously. What a rampant asshole.

    I know this is going to sound super awful but...
    Isn't that strictly speaking accurate? Most sexual assault either happens between people you are close to (see: friends/family) or at places that are considered high risk, such as parties.

    Surely you can lower your chances of crime by staying inside and never ever going anywhere.

    Like if you look at the above sentences and think "Boy what scumbag wrote that." then prepare to be surprised because that shit comes right out of the RAINN proposal to government bodies on how to cut down on sexual assault at college campuses.

    https://rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

    if you are concerned about sexual assault on a college campus, then performing risk-aversive behavior is a sensible, logical goal.
    Im not suggesting you avoid every single party at college. It is college after all. And sure Kasich's message comes off a tad dickish, but a female student who never attends any parties in college WILL in fact drastically lower her chance of being sexually assaulted. He also mentioned providing colleges access to tools that help deal with rape such as confidential reporting and rape kits, which is reasonable and if anything a positive way to help.

    Yes, by all means, let's just absolve universities and campus authorities from any and all responsibility to their students. In fact let's just go ahead and put the full onus of personal responsibility and safety on the shoulders of prospective victims! That's a great idea.

    First, Kasich isn't advocating for common sense prevention. He's essentially victim blaming, whether he wants to cop to it or not. If he has an actual interest in preventing campus sexual assault, great. Offering "friendly advice" that basically equates to "Well, you should have expected something bad to happen to you under those circumstances!" is a far cry from actually doing something to curb incidents from occurring.

    Second, that RAINN pamphlet you linked specifically says that advocating preventative measures is something that needs to be handled tactfully, with respect for the victims. John Kasich getting up on a stage, saying "I'm a father of two, and you shouldn't go to parties with alcohol if you want to be safe!" is about as far from tactful as you can get.

    Plus, it mentions that discussing preventative measures is just one solution to the problem; the university and the community still have to take an active role in helping prevent an assault from occurring, and yet I don't see Kasich publicly advising universities on how to handle the problem. That's okay, though, I'm sure he just doesn't want to alienate potentially significant contributors to his dumpster fire of a campaign.

    And as it turns out, sexual assault isn't just limited to the occasional frat party or kegger, and suggesting that's the only environment in which an assault could occur is not only short sighted, it's incredibly dangerous. Again, if Kasich's really that concerned about ensuring the safety of potential victims, he should be taking universities to task along with students. He's not. So acting like he's making some kind of reasoned point is giving him far more benefit of the doubt than he's actually earned.

    And suggesting common sense measures like providing confidential reporting and rape kits to campuses is a far cry from actually taking proactive measures. If Kasich really wants to help victims of sexual abuse, how about donating some of that campaign money back to RAINN, or another charity with a similar goal, rather than tut-tutting at young people who he thinks should know better?

    Sill, it's all a moot point. Given Kasich's party affiliation, I'm sure he'll give his position on curbing sexual assaults on college campuses the same consideration that the rest of the Republican Party has given to the concerns of female voters over the course of this election cycle. That is to say, none at all.

    If he wants to prove me wrong, I'm all for it. Until that point, Kasich can take his self serving, borderline useless and actively harmful advice, and shove it down the same hole his campaign contributions have been going into for the past several months.


    I won't pretend Kasich said things in a tactful manner. Nor will I pretend that he explained the other 2 important parts of the RAINN pamphlet.

    I also want to be clear. I cant actually vote for president. But if I could, I wouldnt be voting for Kasich (or any republican candidate right now for that matter)
    But it's still important to take everything they said into account

    I would also like to point out that even democratic candidate Bernie Sanders also sought to absolve college campuses from most responsibilities when dealing with rape. (He stated that Campuses should not deal with rape under the guise of it being a student problem, and to allow the police to handle the criminal situation) which fails to take into account the many ways that colleges can (and should) assist victims of rape. Or how the police might improve their track record with rape prosecution.
    (I would hasten to add that this doesn't necessarily mean that bernie would be against colleges assisting rape victims, nor did he say anything to the contrary. But for that matter, neither did Kasich. )

    Kasich had 2 suggestions that are very much in line with what you believe. And one that regardless of how you personally feel about it, would, if followed, cut down on about 62% of college sexual abuse. Did he go far enough in calling for campus and police involvement? No. (at least not to the extent as some other candidates such as Hillary, whose issue statements are actually pretty damn well comprehensive.)

    regardless, his feelings on the matter
    "and make no mistake, the perpetrators have to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law"

    does lend some credence to his thoughts on the responsibility of the police.

    I'm also not quite sure, but, has any candidate donated to RAINN? Have any of them made donations towards anti-rape groups for campuses? (I'm genuinely curious, I dont keep up with everything every candidate does)

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    merely suggesting that alcohol is culpable in any way implicates that you'd be safe if you had better judgement, or that people who perform the act are only doing so because they are inebriated, and there are no societal causes for us to worry about in any way

    A lot of things get done only because people are inebriated at the time.
    Removing alcohol from the picture may not stop people from being dicks, but it would certainly prevent them being able to automatically absolve themselves from whatever situation their drunk personage finds themselves in.

    At least from what I understand.
    I'm a pretty bad Australian.

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  • FawstFawst The road to awe.Registered User regular
    Risk reduction is a smart thing to do in daily life. Going from saying "maybe don't go to so many college parties where there's a high statistical chance that something bad could happen" to "NEVER GO OUT EVER, BLAME THE VICTIM!" is quite the stretch. I don't want to get car-jacked, so I stay out of the seedier parts of places near where I live. Should I be filled with righteous anger that the cops aren't doing enough in their line of reactionary police procedure?

    And what exactly does "do more" mean in the case of preventing rape at a college party? What specific steps can be taken right now that would have a tangible, more beneficial effect than avoidance? Because I think "change the culture" is a pretty massive shift that, philosophically speaking, is the equivalent of putting up a sign that says "pardon our appearance while we remodel" and hoping nothing happens in the meanwhile. It's what needs to be done, yes, but getting sarcastic and snippy about taking actual personal precautions now in the absence of culture change is pretty shitty.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I think that it would be a good idea to shift discussion and education about preventing rape away from women in terms of "this is what you can do" and move it towards men in terms of "this kind of thing is what you absolutely should not be doing."

    Because society, at the moment, does not teach men and especially young men, boys really, that they are not entitled to a woman's body. The books we read, the movies we watch etc, much of them create a poisonous idea of how romantic connections are born and develop which are not countered by education as teenagers and young adults.

    I will tell you now, my (considerably more in depth) understanding of what is rape and consent is now is not one which I held as a teenager and I am certainly not alone there.

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  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    I don't have any problem with that aspect of it, but for the kaisich statement it would be a lot better if he acknowledged the real problem and said something like "BUT a much better solution would be for frat boys to stop raping women at parties"

    Fawst
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    I'd rather it be the opposite: the first thing mentioned should be that the source of the problem should be stopped before you go into any talks about what to do to reduce risk. It'd be like talking about whooping cough and starting with "you should stay away from anyone who is coughing" instead of "people should get vaccinated so this isn't a problem in the first place."

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  • KadithKadith Registered User regular
    Wow, uh this page turned really disgusting and mansplainy overnight.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    edited April 2016
    e: *cracks knuckles* I changed my mind, this deserves a more thorough response.
    Fawst wrote: »
    Risk reduction is a smart thing to do in daily life.

    It's true, and that's part of why we have a police force. That's part of why organizations have policies and rules and codes of conduct. Because everyone is responsible for creating a safe environment for everyone.
    Fawst wrote: »
    Going from saying "maybe don't go to so many college parties where there's a high statistical chance that something bad could happen" to "NEVER GO OUT EVER, BLAME THE VICTIM!" is quite the stretch.

    No it's what we call the logical conclusion of your argument.
    rapestats3.jpg
    73% of female rape survivors are raped by someone they knew. The logical conclusion of "don't put yourself in high risk situations" is "don't be around anyone" because 73% of the time, that's the situation.
    Fawst wrote: »
    I don't want to get car-jacked, so I stay out of the seedier parts of places near where I live.

    People ain't cars, fuck out of here with that bullshit.
    Fawst wrote: »
    Should I be filled with righteous anger that the cops aren't doing enough in their line of reactionary police procedure?

    Yes, you should absolutely be angry that we live in a culture where the people whose job it is to prevent and punish crime are allowed to tacitly ignore crime.
    Fawst wrote: »
    And what exactly does "do more" mean in the case of preventing rape at a college party? What specific steps can be taken right now that would have a tangible, more beneficial effect than avoidance?

    Punish offenders, for starters. When I enlisted in the Army, at one point during basic (I think it was near the end? don't remember), the Chaplain (yes.) sat us all down and gave a very drill sergeant-like speech on rape. He made it clear to all of us that rape is a very serious problem in the military, and that since the overwhelming percentage of offenders were male, it was on us, yes us, all and each of us, to do everything in our power to help prevent, stop, and punish rape and rapists. It was not just our duty as soldiers, but our responsibility as long as we claim to be humans and not shit stains in camouflage (direct quote. Again, Chaplain).
    Fawst wrote: »
    Because I think "change the culture" is a pretty massive shift that, philosophically speaking, is the equivalent of putting up a sign that says "pardon our appearance while we remodel" and hoping nothing happens in the meanwhile. It's what needs to be done, yes, but getting sarcastic and snippy about taking actual personal precautions now in the absence of culture change is pretty shitty.

    I believe that everyone absolutely needs to take care of themselves first, and personally if I had a friend who said "I'm not comfortable doing X, I feel it's too risky." I would say, "that's really shitty, I'm sorry you feel that way, and even more sorry that you're probably right."

    However, while I do think that, and I do agree with people who take that stance for themselves, I absolutely would not accept that as a policy or advice from someone who wants to be in charge of the government, where they would have the power to change the culture.

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  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
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    Kadith wrote: »
    Wow, uh this page turned really disgusting and mansplainy overnight.

    People should be able to discuss things, asks questions and learn without being called disgusting or have silencing tactics used on them.

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    This hurts but I deserve it

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  • CelloCello Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    Risk reduction is a smart thing to do in daily life. Going from saying "maybe don't go to so many college parties where there's a high statistical chance that something bad could happen" to "NEVER GO OUT EVER, BLAME THE VICTIM!" is quite the stretch. I don't want to get car-jacked, so I stay out of the seedier parts of places near where I live. Should I be filled with righteous anger that the cops aren't doing enough in their line of reactionary police procedure?

    And what exactly does "do more" mean in the case of preventing rape at a college party? What specific steps can be taken right now that would have a tangible, more beneficial effect than avoidance? Because I think "change the culture" is a pretty massive shift that, philosophically speaking, is the equivalent of putting up a sign that says "pardon our appearance while we remodel" and hoping nothing happens in the meanwhile. It's what needs to be done, yes, but getting sarcastic and snippy about taking actual personal precautions now in the absence of culture change is pretty shitty.

    Uh, yes? You should be angry that the authorities aren't doing enough to keep a neighbourhood safe? What kind of question is this?

    Like holy shit guys, stop saying that the best way to avoid getting assaulted is to avoid parties because they are some kind of Mad Max danger zone

    By doing so, you're contributing to a culture where women (and some men) are afraid to socialize because of potential assault. Or when victims actually experience it, they're afraid to come forward because it's an indication that they ignored your precious advice and clearly did wrong in order for the assault to happen.

    You're making it easy for actual attackers to get away with their shit. Stop it.

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