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Captain America: Civil War [OPEN SPOILERS, BEWARE!!!]
ElJeffe
Moderator, ClubPA mod
Moderator, ClubPA mod
This thread is for discussion of that new MCU movie all the boys and girls are talking about. I think it stars Antonio Banderas and Lucy Liu or something. Also Spiderman, I guess? Whatever.
If you're lucky enough to live in one of the countries where this has already been released, then a) fuck you and your stupid early-release country *sobs*, and b) remember to use spoiler tags.
If anyone gets things accidentally spoiled by being in here, though, that's what you get for playing with fire.
Edit: OPEN SPOILERS NOW, WHEEEE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
If you're lucky enough to live in one of the countries where this has already been released, then a) fuck you and your stupid early-release country *sobs*, and b) remember to use spoiler tags.
If anyone gets things accidentally spoiled by being in here, though, that's what you get for playing with fire.
Edit: OPEN SPOILERS NOW, WHEEEE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
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ElJeffe on
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Cons against TeamSteve:
She doesn't get arrested, she doesn't get charged, they simply put her under house arrest, in a mansion with Vision taking care of her, while they work out the whole registration thing. She gets pissed, and Hawkeye helps her escape the mansion by attacking Vision and doing heavy damage to the property.
Steve refuses to sign the act, basically saying it is ok that they accidentally killed a ton of people, they shouldn't face any repercussions or require any oversight.
Bucky gets his assassin state triggered and goes on a rampage, proving he is still a threat. Steve still sides with keeping him free and at large, rather than taking him in for help.
Steve makes out with his old girlfriends niece, ew.
Steve knows about a plot to awaken multiple other winter soldiers, tells no one. Instead attempts to steal a quinjet, while fighting through TeamStark to try to stop it himself.
Steve hits spiderman with an airplane, breaking his ribs.
The fight ends up crippling Rhodey, as Steve and Bucky escape.
Blackwidow switches sides (surprise?), tells Nat that Interpol is going to be after her now then lets her leave, she then threatens Tony. Because he is, for some reason, to blame for her sudden problems?
Steve knew Bucky had BRUTALLY murdered the Stark's, and never told Tony.
Steve beats Tony to near death.
Steve breaks the rest of his team out of the raft, after they were captured. Because regardless of the loss of life and property damage they have caused, he still knows best?
For Steve having been against people keeping secrets all this time, he sure does like keeping them himself. Almost like he really just wants to be the one in charge and making the decisions, rather than just being truthful.
Cons against TeamStark:
Tony freaks out after being forced to watch Bucky brutalize his parents, and being told Steve knew about it but said nothing, tries to kill Bucky.
After all of this, they don't even cure Bucky. They just end up cryogenicly freezing him, because he admits he is too dangerous to keep walking around as he is. So all the destruction, pain, and anguish Steve has caused with this whole ordeal was for naught.
I am kind of wondering if this is all leading into Steve actually being a Skrull, and them actually doing some form of secret invasion in the MCU. Because each movie is making him more and more aggressive towards everyone.
Sokovia is say Cap is pretty well in the wrong, but the above summary is rather uncharitable to them, still. Like, the Scarlet Witch thing - she blew up a corner of a hospital....by losing control of an explosion she was containing from a suicide bombing on the ground which would have killed MORE people, including Cap, which she was trying to get into the sky so she could release it.
Bucky is more mixed bag. It's the classic 'is it really bucky's fault, and will he get the help he needs.' its a weird intersection of comic book logic on Cap 's side, vs real world logic on Stark' 's (because seriously, how often does this shit happen in comics?). That being said, when you see the profession everyone is kept in, that's also definitely a ding on Stark (not that he wanted that, but you know).
The personal one is Stark giving in to rage/revenge, which is a theme throughout the movie, so Cap wins that one. It's pointed out explicitly when Black Panther forgoes revenge and then prevents Zemo's suicide so he can be punished by law.
In the other thread, someone asked about the end credit stuff. Keeping vague so feel free to highlight this one.
it was caused by a robot that stark built, stark who has no super powers
Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch were neck deep in that until the last minute. As well as Ultron himself being built by Tony Stark and Bruce Banner, two super-heroes.
Ultron, in and of himself, was a sentient, super-powered being, same as The Vision.
The stupid fucking thing, though, is that we know...
So, count me in on the non-registration side always, because a bunch of loose cannon idiot superheroes sometimes killing busloads of children is still better than the literal end of the world & total victory for the bad guys.
Regarding Zemo
It would be great if in the future there is some sort of team up of side villains from the movies that decides to bust him out and he just turns on them immediately.
"Don't you get it? I'm against ALL you guys!"
Hope Brühl gets mad props for this.
Edit: I'm picky about pluralization.
The conflict between friends was set up and handled as well as could be. Still, trying not to think about it too hard, because then comic book logic always falls apart somewhere... Most of the lighthearted stuff was great though! My personal highlight:
(fight scene dialog spoiler)
Also, this has my new favorite version of Spiderman.
Excellent superhero facepunching movie all in all!
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To be fair, he recruits a 16yr old, who has no problems knocking the other adult heroes around.
Stuff that I liked; Spiderman was fantastic, the central debate between Steve and Tony was mostly sensible, and I appreciated some of the lasting consequences like Rhodes actually being paralyzed in the big group fight and most of the Avengers having to go underground. Bucky getting frozen again in the epilogue felt really weird, though, like they literally decided to put his character development on ice.
Overall, I'd maybe give it a 7/10 if I'm being generous.
That summary is way off
Wanda:
- Saves Steve and a crowd of onlookers from a suicide bomb, but it gets redirected into a building
- She's pretty shaken up by it, questioning if she is still the same person as before she got her powers, and how people see her
- Is reluctant to leave the base and Clint has to give her another pep talk to get her to come
- She never "helped Ultron attempt to destroy the world", she turned on him immediately upon realizing his plans. She wanted revenge on Tony, and by extension the Avengers, but realized her error.
Speaking of revenge
- Zemo wants revenge against all of the Avengers
- Tony wants revenge against Bucky, a victim of brainwashing, and attempts to kill him
- T'Challa wants revenge against Bucky, spends most of the film trying to kill him, but realizes at the end that revenge is bad, going as far as preventing Zemo from committing suicide
- The authorities themselves seem to want revenge against Bucky and primarily attempt to kill rather than capture him (for something it turns out he didn't do)
- Where else have we seen this 'revenge bad' theme? Agents of Shield, Daredevil
Steve:
- Tells Wanda that the deaths in Lagos are his fault, not hers
- Is against the accords because he's concerned about being sent somewhere without good cause, or being prevented from going somewhere needed
- Explicitly says that it would be giving up responsibility for consequences of own actions
- Sharon basically explictly tells Steve not to sign the accords when she speaks at Peggy's funeral
- Steve intervenes because 1) After the Vienna bombing, the order is to kill Bucky 2) Reasons that Bucky is less likely to hurt him than anyone else
- Cooperates fully once Bucky is taken in alive
- Starts leaning towards signing the accords after Bucky is brought in alive, but is upset when he finds out Tony has Wanda under house arrest
- Realizes that the whole thing is a setup just before...
- Bucky getting 'activated' which proves that the whole thing is a setup, Steve prevents Bucky's escape, restrains Bucky until he is sure he can trust him, at which point the priority becomes stopping Zemo
- Sharon and Steve can make out with whoever they like(and it would be better described as a Kiss). Also, I don't think anything ever actually "happened" between Steve and Peggy? Pretty sure Peggy would be cool with it.
- Steve tells Tony et al about Zemo and the other Winter Soldiers at the Airport. Tony just demands they surrender. Steve fights because he has to in order to stop Zemo.
- I don't remember exactly but I don't think 'throws a plane at' is what happens between Steve and Peter. They bond a little about both being New Yorkers.
- Rhodey's injury happens when Sam dodges a blast from Vision, Sam immediately tries to save him, but both he and Tony fail to do so
- How do you tell friend b that friend a killed friend b's parent while brainwashed? Can't blame him for not knowing how to approach it. I'm not sure that Steve knew this for a fact, as much as he realized that it was probably the case.
- Steve doesn't 'beat Tony to near death', he disables Tony's suit, and then leaves his shield behind with Tony when Tony says he doesn't deserve it
- Everyone is locked up on the raft because they helped Steve, so I imagine he feels responsible
Natasha
- Is primarily concerned with protecting everyone/keeping everyone together
- Which is why she sides with signing the accords and discourages Steve from getting involved with the manhunt for Bucky
- AND why she gets pissed off at Tony for letting things get so out of hand
- 'Switching sides' consists of stopping T'Challa from catching Steve/Bucky. T'Challa being a third party with the agenda of killing Bucky for something he didn't do
Things that befuddled me:
- Steve's 'we can't save everyone' lines seemed out of character (in comparison to his attitude to saving everyone in Sokovia when the entire world was at stake), BUT he was trying to comfort Wanda
- Bucky is tracked down in Bucharest, but team that goes after him are German, and then they bring everyone to Berlin. I guess because whole thing is happening under UN authority?
- How does Steve know where the raft is?
Ps I hope you can break my code.
Which is possibly just a problem with that fight - you know they'll avoid doing serious damage, so the stakes seem kind of low.
It also felt a lot like it just kind of ended. And I thought it was really poor form to have a pretty important story detail re: Bucky put into the mid-credits stinger.
I don't think it really "grabbed" me story-wise, which is a shame because the central argument it wanted to present was actually super-interesting. I think if I wanted one big improvement it would've been actually to have a little more dialogue between the various Avengers on the registration movement - i.e. Vision had a pretty important point about why Wanda needed to stay in, and that should've been further explored.
I had not expected it to be as funny as it turned out to be.
Only two things did not click with me
Bucky refrozen after all that hassle about him.
Spidey. Boy did they nail everything about him I wanted to see. Also his introduction and meeting with Tony Stank.
Airport fight. Thor versus Tony Stank in Avengers 1 cranked up to 11. extended to what felt like 15 minutes or more.
Ant Man.
The Brotherhood of the Inconspicuous VW Beetle.
The visual of a depowered IM with Cap's shield lying on the floor.
Chris Evans versus a helicopter.
The Falcon comedy bits. Also RDJ whenever he got to do it.
SW just selling what is basically just Telekinesis at this point.
Vision's casual wear.
and so much more that I am omitting.
EDIT: mind you count me amongst those who thought it super weird that
That's not unexpected.
the only downside to this whole marvel thing is that because it's all linked the movies feel less contained.
I'm not sure if they've handled the civil war story or if, later on, we get a 2nd half where someone important dies.
The registration thing might have worked had they not tried to get it going through stark.
stark is a mess. a huge, huge mess.
I agree with this. Also...
But basically what was really missing was some elaboration on the differences between Stark and Cap. I think there was a moment there, between then the Sorkovia accords get proposed, and the UN bombing, where there should've been a disaster which technically falls under the accords and which the Avengers would've been held back from, where Steve decides to go in anyway.
Something where things work out well, and kind of supports Steve's "people with agendas" point. It would've been a good opportunity to add a nice "hero" moment to the film (which is something I think it lacked - the fights in this movie are meant to be tragedies), and a good way to show rather then tell the difference.
The big-ass font of the "sub" titles
It's a good thing you're telling me this is Lagos movie all I can see is the word "Lagos"
Am I right in thinking this film had no title at the start? After a couple of sequences I was like ... and now we get the intro/title ... no? I guess not?
Major ending spoiler:
I didn't get it until they explicitly said it!
Anyway, just got back from seeing this. It had a couple of issues (and I honestly don't know if I'll end up liking it more or less if I think about it some more and watch it a second time) but overall it was really good. Definitely better than Age of Ultron.
What drags it down a bit is pretty much what I expected beforehand - way too many characters crammed into one movie, leaving some of them somewhat underdeveloped.
Casting Martin Freeman as that one guy who has like 5 lines and no depth whatsoever though..what a waste. You could've done so much more with a brilliant actor like him.
I loved pretty much everything about the ending. They could've easily gone with the finale being a fight against the other super soldiers, or maybe against Daniel Brühl after he absorbed their powers or whatever, but I'm glad they didn't go down that route. I liked that the conflict wasn't neatly resolved with everyone being happy and healthy (though I kinda expected Rhodes to die), it should make the next couple of movies interesting. Like, can Spiderman operate in the open now? Is the whole "acting under UN oversight" thing still going to happen?
I'm kinda surprised they didn't tease or set up the Infinity War storyline at all.
Also, what was the second stinger with Spiderman all about, exactly? Does his projector thingy have some kind of significance?
Also, I haven't looked, but I expect Martin Freeman to show up a lot in Black Panther's movie as Audience Exposition Guy.
PSN / Xbox / NNID: Fodder185
because in the movie he came across a bit Joffrey-ish.
you know, a weak and cruel person that gets off on power and inflicting pain to others.
I mean when he was going through is "please step out of line!" dialogue I was expecting to hear his pants rip.
Also, this happened.
PSN / Xbox / NNID: Fodder185
regarding the second stinger
The original story was nonsensical, dumb, and made everyone act out of character to serve the story that Millar wanted to tell. The reason it began was dumb, he turned Reed and Tony into mustache twirling villains, and the resolution was so heavy handed and silly that it broke what was already a flimsy story.
This movie could do almost anything and it would be better than what we got in the comics.
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