[WoW]: The portal's always greener on the fel side.

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  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    Most people demanded convenience and that's what they got. Dungeon Finders are now a mandatory feature of MMOs, and look at all the screaming over not having flying on Legion ASAP.

  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    I don't know about flying so much. Mostly because that's just a feature that's a part of every expansion up until then, and they decided to throw it under the bus for no real reason. Kind of wish they did something like FFXIV did instead of put it behind some achievements I don't feel like doing.

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  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    edited May 2016
    Um...
    I don't know about flying so much. Mostly because that's just a feature that's a part of every expansion up until then, and they decided to throw it under the bus for no real reason. Kind of wish they did something like FFXIV did instead of put it behind some achievements I don't feel like doing.



    That's exactly what they did in WoD and are doing in Legion.

    Smrtnik on
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  • SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    I miss when Stitches used to walk right into the town center of Darkshire. I understand why they stopped that, but it was pretty funny seeing him camp the town for half an hour until enough people at the appropriate level could actually kill him. It was also funny when people could kite him to Goldshire.

    Ishtaar
  • SkwigelfSkwigelf Passed out in a cloud of farts and cigarette smoke.Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Um...
    I don't know about flying so much. Mostly because that's just a feature that's a part of every expansion up until then, and they decided to throw it under the bus for no real reason. Kind of wish they did something like FFXIV did instead of put it behind some achievements I don't feel like doing.



    That's exactly what they did in WoD and are doing in Legion.

    Yeah but in WoD they added that achievement in the last content patch, instead of hitting the level cap and immediately being able to work on the achievement/quest line to unlock flying, which is what most people thought would happen(or at least have the achievement/quest added well before the last patch).

    drunkenpandaren
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Yeah but that last patch seems like it will last longer than all the other patches of WoD...

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  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited May 2016
    I'm still trekking towards 100 on my mage. Back up to 75 now.

    Instances really are extremely boring now. I have nothing to do.

    My DPS is outstripped by pretty much every other class, including the tank. Nobody needs CC anymore.

    Not that mage DPS is necessarily bad once it gets going.

    It's just that rogues, paladins, warriors, hunters, shamen, death knights, monks, and even druids get their 10-12k crits in instantly with the push of a button, while mine takes 2.3 seconds to "wind up" while I'm standing perfectly still and hoping the tank hasn't run out of range with the mobs yet. I really wish they'd find a way to spice up mage game play more.

    Also everybody is so wimpy about instances these days. If for some reason they can't just roflstomp the shit out of a dungeon, most people just quit to find one they can. I can't tell you how many times the tank has dropped group on the first death simply because he bit off more than he could chew and the healer got MC'd, silenced, or stunlocked.

    RT800 on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    All you can really do as a caster in leveling dungeons is spam your instant casts and AoEs.

    SmrtnikNobodyAssuran
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Another problem they created is that you no longer play The Expansion anymore, you play The Patch. Regardless of how people felt about it, the badge system introduced in BC and made all the more prominent in Wrath was an excellent addition to the game. It gave you an incentive to go back and do content from the start of the expansion, and incentive to still run dungeons. The removal of the system was perhaps one of the worst game-wide mistakes they've ever made.

    Then again, looking at WoD, it isn't like there was much of anything to go back and do for those badges aside from dungeons obviously.

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    drunkenpandarenMugsleyNobody
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited May 2016
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Yeah but that last patch seems like it will last longer than all the other patches of WoD...

    You know I was thinking about this and it's absolutely true. The time from WoD release to Hellfire patch will be substantially less than Hellfire patch to Legion release.

    Javen on
    SmrtnikArthil
  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Um...
    I don't know about flying so much. Mostly because that's just a feature that's a part of every expansion up until then, and they decided to throw it under the bus for no real reason. Kind of wish they did something like FFXIV did instead of put it behind some achievements I don't feel like doing.



    That's exactly what they did in WoD and are doing in Legion.

    Not really. There is a serious achievement grind to get flying. FFXIV on the other hand is a quest to go to these neat places and bam, you can fly. It's not even a main story quest either, just a side quest that you can do on the side. Blizzard makes it incredibly tedious, especially for people who are late to the party to play the expansion.

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  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Yeah with FFXIV it's simply a matter of traveling around and finding stuff. I suppose the big difference is you need to do this for each zone.

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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Most people demanded convenience and that's what they got. Dungeon Finders are now a mandatory feature of MMOs, and look at all the screaming over not having flying on Legion ASAP.

    All the anger at Blizzard over flying in Legion is because they're busy hemming and hawing over when it will actually be implemented. Y'know, like they did with WoD and only put it in after subs had taken a nosedive in the final patch after doing the same thing. So people are understandably wary of Blizzard pulling that shit again when they won't commit to a simple "It will be such and such steps and the final one will release in this patch."

    EnclaveofGnomes
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Flying is pretty much completely unnecessary in wod though. I use it so i can fly from my main hall to the ashran portal in my garrison without winding up the inside. Other than that ive used it to level alts by grabbing treasures and flying my wife around tanaan on my 2 person mount to get her flying. By the time you have flying you dont even want to go to tanaan anymore and its like the one place you could need it.

    Legion might have places to go at max level so it could be more useful there, and the flying achievement will be in from the start. I dont get why everyone freaks out like flying was some gift granted at max level in previous expansions. In tbc you hit max but had to pay a ton of gold to get 150% flying. You could afford the slow bus if you spent all the gold you got while leveling. The 280% was just as much an achievement grind because you didnt put together a couple thousand gold in a day. If they put flying behind similar paywalls today there would be people who would be pissed because "they've never had that much gold before" or cant make gold.

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  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Except we had similar, or higher paywalls before? That's how it worked for Cataclysm and MoP although I believe Cataclysm was cheaper.

    As for it being in from the start... Part 1 will be available to be completed from the start. People have an issue that they don't seem to be able to just give us a breakdown of when the next part will be. They claim the majority of the achievement will be finished by doing what's available at launch, which is cool if true. But it isn't so cool if we don't get the next smaller part in 7.1.

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  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Id prefer they spend dev time making sure all of the classes work rather than fine tune an achievement. Broken gameplay will make more people quit than not being able to fly for a month.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
  • RoeRoe Farming Greater Rifts Registered User regular
    edited May 2016
    Blizzards paywall was exactly as it should have been in Wrath. BC fast flying still cost a lot and the stuff from the expansion (repair and reagent mounts/cool flying mounts) were an achievement and status symbols not to mention they were incredibly handy back then.

    Heirlooms were also hard fought with heroic badges. Fast forward to today, badges are mostly an afterthought and most of everything that is gold bought is vanity or subscription. In my opinion, the carrot on the stick is really gone.

    Roe on
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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    Id prefer they spend dev time making sure all of the classes work rather than fine tune an achievement. Broken gameplay will make more people quit than not being able to fly for a month.

    What class do you think doesn't work? PvP balance is stronger than it has ever been before, and more balanced than pretty much any other PvP MMO experience.

    EnclaveofGnomes
  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    All you can really do as a caster in leveling dungeons is spam your instant casts and AoEs.

    I leveled fire once. Most things were dead before I finished my cast on Fireball. Haha.

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  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    Made it to level 80 before my first death.

    My mistake. I assumed the healer would heal and the tank would tank.

  • EnclaveofGnomesEnclaveofGnomes Registered User regular
    edited May 2016
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    Flying is pretty much completely unnecessary in wod though. I use it so i can fly from my main hall to the ashran portal in my garrison without winding up the inside. Other than that ive used it to level alts by grabbing treasures and flying my wife around tanaan on my 2 person mount to get her flying. By the time you have flying you dont even want to go to tanaan anymore and its like the one place you could need it.

    Legion might have places to go at max level so it could be more useful there, and the flying achievement will be in from the start. I dont get why everyone freaks out like flying was some gift granted at max level in previous expansions. In tbc you hit max but had to pay a ton of gold to get 150% flying. You could afford the slow bus if you spent all the gold you got while leveling. The 280% was just as much an achievement grind because you didnt put together a couple thousand gold in a day. If they put flying behind similar paywalls today there would be people who would be pissed because "they've never had that much gold before" or cant make gold.

    So weird that people still use that excuse as if there's only one small team that works on everything that goes into an mmo.

    The people balancing classes are definitely not the people making sure environments are flight ready and flipping that switch.

    I also don't get why people freak out over flying being added and accessible as if an optional tool would ruin there fun.

    EnclaveofGnomes on
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    I don't care at all about flying. I am firmly in the camp that it is one of the changes that was not good for the game, but now that pandora's box has been opened it will never go away.

    I get that there is more than one team working on WoW, but that argument seems to get weaker and weaker as time moves on. There is less and less content per patch/expansion which has increasing time between them. The titan team didn't go to WoW, it went to overwatch, so there wasn't some big influx of people working on it. They've generally been running with the same engine for 10+ years, their asset pipeline should be fairly hammered out by now. Any changes in it is because they decide to reinvent the wheel every expansion and doing that does require basically everyone working as one team.
    Javen wrote: »
    What class do you think doesn't work? PvP balance is stronger than it has ever been before, and more balanced than pretty much any other PvP MMO experience.

    Some classes are certainly over-represented compared to others. I do actually think currently things are fairly balanced, but I'm talking about on alpha where huge aspects of classes don't work, or are near-universally hated. Tuning hasn't happened so you can't really judge by numbers, but some of the pruning and changes are going to hurt some classes more than others.

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  • MorkathMorkath Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Madican wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    Most people demanded convenience and that's what they got. Dungeon Finders are now a mandatory feature of MMOs, and look at all the screaming over not having flying on Legion ASAP.

    All the anger at Blizzard over flying in Legion is because they're busy hemming and hawing over when it will actually be implemented. Y'know, like they did with WoD and only put it in after subs had taken a nosedive in the final patch after doing the same thing. So people are understandably wary of Blizzard pulling that shit again when they won't commit to a simple "It will be such and such steps and the final one will release in this patch."

    The thing about flying being gone in WoD that really pissed me off, was the fact the collectors edition gave you a flying mount for the expansion.

    "Check out this cool bird mount you get!...ohbtwitcantactuallyfly."

    EnclaveofGnomesDonnictonNobody
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Wasn't that bird supposed to be like the flightless bird that drops in heroic sethekk halls? That's just how I thought of it.

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  • SteevLSteevL What can I do for you? Registered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    Wasn't that bird supposed to be like the flightless bird that drops in heroic sethekk halls? That's just how I thought of it.

    It is that bird (with some armor on its head), but that bird is/was not flightless. I actually managed to get it to drop for me a month or so before WoD came out and then flew around on it for a while.

  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    Wasn't that bird supposed to be like the flightless bird that drops in heroic sethekk halls? That's just how I thought of it.

    Sort of - without getting too nerdrant about how it all plays into the story, it's basically an uncorrupted spawn/bretheren of the Anzu/Arakkoa from the WoD time period. Because you know the WoW writer teams just loves their whole corruption schtick.

  • LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Removing flying just doesn't make any sense to me. You never unlock it until max level, so it doesn't need to factor into quest design for leveling content. Max level world content is commonly limited to one specific zone like timeless Isle or Isle of thunder or whatever and they can just turn flying off in those zones. Other max level world content is nearly nonexistent (like the apexis zones in the wod leveling zones, and honestly who cares what you do to shortcut that slogfest).

    The best expansions they've ever designed have all prominently featured flying, so claiming that flying keeps them from designing compelling content isn't true.

    I don't think fling potentially obviating content is something that actually happens. We didn't have flying in wod and it didn't magically make the fact that they never released any post launch content any less of a problem. The only content that might have been harmed by flying's inclusion would be treasure hunting, and they made sure that wouldn't be an issue by tying it into the achievement.

    Given their level agnostic 'zones in any order' approach, I would really like to see them take on a mix of BC style endgame subzones in each area that require flight to reach, and FFXIV style flight gating behind zone specific achievements that require you to explore the land reachable points of interest and complete the zone storylines to unlock. Players could first focus on getting flying in the zones they liked the most (or the zones who's max level content gives them the rewards they want), and then save the other zones for when they want something else to do that's world pve.

    Regardless of what they do, pussyfooting about when we get flying/whether or not we get flying at all is a completely shitty thing to do to their customers. They need to make up their minds and tell us what they're going to do so that the people who care about it can decide if they want to buy the expansion or not. It really bothers me that they haven't already decided. They talk as if flying or no flying is a monumental choice when it comes to game design, and then they turn around and say they may or may not 'flip the switch' some undefined amount of time in the future. You would think they would have made that decision way back in the planning stages of the expansion so they could incorporate that choice into their zone design.

    EnclaveofGnomesFairchildMugsleydrunkenpandarenIshtaar
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Enigmedic wrote: »
    Flying is pretty much completely unnecessary in wod though. I use it so i can fly from my main hall to the ashran portal in my garrison without winding up the inside. Other than that ive used it to level alts by grabbing treasures and flying my wife around tanaan on my 2 person mount to get her flying. By the time you have flying you dont even want to go to tanaan anymore and its like the one place you could need it.

    Legion might have places to go at max level so it could be more useful there, and the flying achievement will be in from the start. I dont get why everyone freaks out like flying was some gift granted at max level in previous expansions. In tbc you hit max but had to pay a ton of gold to get 150% flying. You could afford the slow bus if you spent all the gold you got while leveling. The 280% was just as much an achievement grind because you didnt put together a couple thousand gold in a day. If they put flying behind similar paywalls today there would be people who would be pissed because "they've never had that much gold before" or cant make gold.

    It was 60% flying. They bumped it to 150% much, much later. Like, well past TBC.

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    You're completely right, I forgot. People still used their ground mounts because they were faster lol.

    Getting flight form at 68 on my druid made questing in blades edge and netherstorm so much easier though. I actually liked leveling while having flight in tbc, and it was pretty nice in wod too after I got the achievement on my main. I think if they are going to put flying in, just let it be used from the get go. Just put more things in the game that can blast you out of the sky if you are basically abusing it in a questing area. Flying to a questing area is fine, just dropping on top of whatever you need to pick up/kill then mount away again just kind of negates the content even existing. At that point just don't even develop and implement the quest, just put a box on the ground that glows purple with a sign that says collect exp here.

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  • FairchildFairchild Rabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?" Registered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    Removing flying just doesn't make any sense to me. You never unlock it until max level, so it doesn't need to factor into quest design for leveling content. Max level world content is commonly limited to one specific zone like timeless Isle or Isle of thunder or whatever and they can just turn flying off in those zones. Other max level world content is nearly nonexistent (like the apexis zones in the wod leveling zones, and honestly who cares what you do to shortcut that slogfest).

    The best expansions they've ever designed have all prominently featured flying, so claiming that flying keeps them from designing compelling content isn't true.

    I don't think fling potentially obviating content is something that actually happens. We didn't have flying in wod and it didn't magically make the fact that they never released any post launch content any less of a problem. The only content that might have been harmed by flying's inclusion would be treasure hunting, and they made sure that wouldn't be an issue by tying it into the achievement.

    Given their level agnostic 'zones in any order' approach, I would really like to see them take on a mix of BC style endgame subzones in each area that require flight to reach, and FFXIV style flight gating behind zone specific achievements that require you to explore the land reachable points of interest and complete the zone storylines to unlock. Players could first focus on getting flying in the zones they liked the most (or the zones who's max level content gives them the rewards they want), and then save the other zones for when they want something else to do that's world pve.

    Regardless of what they do, pussyfooting about when we get flying/whether or not we get flying at all is a completely shitty thing to do to their customers. They need to make up their minds and tell us what they're going to do so that the people who care about it can decide if they want to buy the expansion or not. It really bothers me that they haven't already decided. They talk as if flying or no flying is a monumental choice when it comes to game design, and then they turn around and say they may or may not 'flip the switch' some undefined amount of time in the future. You would think they would have made that decision way back in the planning stages of the expansion so they could incorporate that choice into their zone design.

    Word. Great post.

    ArthilEnclaveofGnomesNobody
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I'm not sure why people are so reluctant to take at face value the statement that they weren't sure how they wanted to implement flight in WoD (plus we knew very early on that it wasn't going to be in at launch)

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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    I'm not sure why people are so reluctant to take at face value the statement that they weren't sure how they wanted to implement flight in WoD (plus we knew very early on that it wasn't going to be in at launch)

    Because they have a history of this shit. They don't get benefit of the doubt anymore, they blew through all that goodwill.

    EnclaveofGnomesDelphinidaesArthilIshtaarNobody
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    :rotate:

    okay, whatever you say

    NREqxl5.jpg
    Marathon
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2016
    I'm not sure why people are so reluctant to take at face value the statement that they weren't sure how they wanted to implement flight in WoD (plus we knew very early on that it wasn't going to be in at launch)

    Because that's absurd. Flying has ENORMOUS implications for open world zone design, and it has to be taken into account in countless ways when pacing the overall content.

    Designing the content without knowing what they wanted to do for flying is equally as bad as the idea that they were hiding information from players.

    Dhalphir on
    Morkathnaengwen
  • EnclaveofGnomesEnclaveofGnomes Registered User regular
    :rotate:

    okay, whatever you say

    I know what you mean it's not like they spent an entire expansion saying "Maybe next patch...maybe not at all...maybe for gold...maybe for an achievement"

    Oh wait, that's exactly what they did And then when someone pointed out they had a year and a half of nothing planned they figured it was finally time.

    So yeah they did use up quite a bit of goodwill.

    ArthilDelphinidaesDhalphirLorahaloIshtaarNobody
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    what they said repeatedly is that they weren't sure how/if they were going to implement it; it's not like they said it'd be in one patch and it wasn't, and the next and it wasn't, and so on. They consistently said they were going to continue to collect feedback as time went on.

    A lot of people seem to feel the need to spin this into some sort of conspiracy, which... look, it's dumb. They gain nothing by misleading players about this stuff. Assuming they always knew they were going to implement flying the way they did, why wouldn't they just say it from the jump?

    NREqxl5.jpg
  • EnclaveofGnomesEnclaveofGnomes Registered User regular
    what they said repeatedly is that they weren't sure how/if they were going to implement it; it's not like they said it'd be in one patch and it wasn't, and the next and it wasn't, and so on. They consistently said they were going to continue to collect feedback as time went on.

    A lot of people seem to feel the need to spin this into some sort of conspiracy, which... look, it's dumb. They gain nothing by misleading players about this stuff. Assuming they always knew they were going to implement flying the way they did, why wouldn't they just say it from the jump?

    bold: Not really, in fact it went further then my original post with blues saying that the world had been built from the ground up for flying and then later saying that lots of work still needed to be done...At that last patch they rolled out the standard "we're collecting data" garbage but that wasn't the myriad of the lines leading up to it. A mess that showed the right hand had no idea what the left was doing or saying.


    italic: Who?

    Because that's not what I'm reading here. It's not some plot and no one is claiming it is...it's incompetence. Perhaps arrogance. The only vaguely conspiratorial part of the whole pathetic thing is that they may have decided half way through WOD that "Shit we really have nothing to bridge the gap to the next expansion" and decided that flying should go there and hope that'd do the trick.

    DelphinidaesArthilIshtaar
  • MugsleyMugsley Registered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    They talk as if flying or no flying is a monumental choice when it comes to game design, and then they turn around and say they may or may not 'flip the switch' some undefined amount of time in the future. You would think they would have made that decision way back in the planning stages of the expansion so they could incorporate that choice into their zone design.

    I mean, it's not like they are "...two expansions ahead..." and have essentially been working on this since MoP was announced.

    ...wait

  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    I believe if they hadn't gutted the non-raiding content for WoD, the outcry about no flying may not have been so bad and in fact people might have shrugged their shoulders and gone. "Y'know, that was actually fun to run around on the ground again for max level stuff!"

    Instead the expansion started out with all the reputations needing you to grind mobs, or token-like drops for rep. The rewards were "okay", however the mount offerings were horrible and just showed that instead of putting lore appropriate mounts behind the reputation grinds they'd rather plop random Space Gazelle and Pigs there and sell the real ones for $25 a pop. Dungeon content dried up quickly, with you needing less and less reason to venture into them. It all left people with only one thing to do, and that was raiding. LFR for those who didn't have the time for normal and would have otherwise done dungeons/reps to get their gear.

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    I needed a gnome to post.Nobody
  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    Did WoD really gain anything from flying though? People even earlier in the thread have said that getting flying wasn't "content". Well, there is nothing in WoD that you need flying for. Pretty much all there is in wod is pvp and raiding, and in both cases you can't use a flying mount. There is basically nothing you can do with a flying mount that you couldnt do on a ground mount. alt tabbed while waiting for one of the 4 tanaan bosses to spawn is just as easily done on a ground mount, and a bunch of classes and races have access to stealth anyway. Getting up the elite area to get to kazzak doesnt matter, tons of people just sit in their garrison and wait for a summon.

    Had they just never given flying in WoD, it wouldn't even be an issue for Legion. But people are mad about losing it for a little bit again. They should reimplement it like flying on the isle of thunder though, make it a server progression type of thing. Whatever personal achievement they are going to tie it to is going to most likely be a terrible rep grind or mindless amount of dailies to collect some arbitrary amount of tokens. The only reason I prefer an achievement to gold is that it is account wide and I dont have to spend all of my leveling gold to buy it for 8+ characters.

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