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And in the [13th Age] there arose powerful Icons

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on "social stuff" ?
    Sure; I know some guys who love the system and I want to run a game for them, but I'm on a kick right now of Intrigue! and Suspense! and Politics!. (seriously politics doesn't have to be boring)

    Like take Game of Thrones for an example.

    We've got brave, square-jawed, two-fisted heroes people with deep character flaws that do more than just stab away their problems. They talk! And scheme! And attempt to form alliances that sometimes goes hideously wrong and winds up accidentally giving away key technology to the Hutts! pissing the wrong people off and wind up being executed for it!

    I mean, I can just do that with Backgrounds. But I feel like there should be more to it, you know? Like a selection of Social Talents you could take as well. Options to make Social encounters pop more than "Oh hey you rolled 1d20+4 and got a 15? The innkeeper takes the gold you slid across the counter, dropping it into a hidden pouch. 'Yeah, I've seen Pickman around. Painter, right? Stopped in for a pint the other night. Didn't look like he was sleeping too well.'"

    Oats
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on "social stuff" ?
    Sure; I know some guys who love the system and I want to run a game for them, but I'm on a kick right now of Intrigue! and Suspense! and Politics!.
    Insects!

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Yeah I don't know it kinda sounds like you're looking for something a bit outside of what 13th Age is aiming to be. There's nothing wrong with that, but these days youre better finding a game that does what you want than trying to make a game do what you want.

    That's not a knock or anything, just that we're kinda in a golden age of gaming

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Yeah I don't know it kinda sounds like you're looking for something a bit outside of what 13th Age is aiming to be. There's nothing wrong with that, but these days youre better finding a game that does what you want than trying to make a game do what you want.

    That's not a knock or anything, just that we're kinda in a golden age of gaming
    Hm, maybe. I sort of feel like I could bolt an entire parallel set of options on to 13th Age and be OK, I'm just not sure what sounds fun.

    Like I want the same sense of increasing danger, with different options and a bit of strategy. Figured somebody might have homebrewed it already.

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    doomybear wrote: »
    Aren't the icons like that on purpose though? They're generic placeholders for standard high fantasy tropes.
    That's an excuse; if they're meant to be replaceable, there's no reason not to go all-in on something evocative and interesting! If you're selling me a cookbook, don't showcase with something from the back of a box of pre-made cake mix! Give me cybernoir! High noon fantasy! The creeping dread that lurked in the darkness beyond the firelight of pre-history! The roaring 20s with dragons!

    (or at least don't make them blatant ripoffs of D&D deities, sheesh.)

    Hextor The Crusader is pretty rad, though.
    They are like that on purpose. As the GM and players, we are suppose to define them ourselves to fit our view on the 13th Age.
    This is like the biggest cop-out I've ever seen:
    Ordinarily one of our published campaign settings would choose names for key NPCs that evoke wonder and a sense of a specific individual history. But we didn’t choose that route for 13th Age. Instead we chose somewhat generic names for the icons to leave room for you to customize icon identities in each of your campaigns.
    "We could have made, like, a totally evocative game filled with wonder! But we made a generic setting instead, you should go do that yourselves."
    Reading this book after watching Legend of Korra is like abandoning a steak to chew on a bar of soap! These mechanics deserve better! Let's get a list of alternate Icons and settings going!

    (also, re: "Player Characters don't have any meaningful Alignment in 13th Age" ... sure they do. The player's relationship (Positive / Conflicted / Negative) to the various categories of Icons (Heroic / Ambiguous / Villainous) is absolutely a version of Alignment. They might not have "Lawful Evil" on their character sheet, but a character with a Positive relationship with the Lich King is going to have just as explaining to do as one that worships Vecna)

    If you look at 13th Age, everything about it's setting is vague. That's because they don't want you to play their game, they want you to play your game. I love the World of Darkness games, especially Vampire, but I'll never run it. Because there is so much setting that I don't know, that will come up in the game, because the setting is so hardwired into the game. I can get away with running games in a Marvel or Star Wars system because I grew up with it and can quote it, but anything DC that isn't Batman or Arrowverse I wouldn't run either. I never run any of the D&D settings beyond the concept of Points of Light because of the settings. However, with 13th Age, the setting is just there as a starting point. It's like someone gave me a box of Legos and said "Build a Car". I could build a simple car, a box with 4 wheels. Or I can build a Formula 1 race car. Or a life sized Batmobile. That's what they have given us. Legos to build a world if we want to, but let the mechanics and setting be separate enough that you can play the game with other settings, like Eberron, or Neverwinter, or Gamma World. For someone like me who doesn't want setting to get in the way of story, that's great. I don't need to read a fucking novel and years of handbooks to fully understand the workings of the Empire. I get to decide that myself. It's not lazy, or a cop-out, or anything else you think it is. It's Genius. It allows me to come into the game, make my story, and run it. It let's my players come into the game, make their stories, and run it. If you want to have a long, drawn out history about the 13th Age, and write a novel worth of background setting for the last 12 ages, then go ahead. But it's not needed, and Rob and Johnathan understood this.
    jdarksun wrote: »
    We must dissent!

    There are other ways of resolving disputes than combat! Where are the rules for social encounters!

    ...seriously, does anybody have any good info for social stuff in this game? The best I can find on the web is like "uhhh, use Backgrounds I guess?"

    Maybe it's just me, but I'm really getting a goosey feel about your posts in this thread.
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on "social stuff" ?
    Sure; I know some guys who love the system and I want to run a game for them, but I'm on a kick right now of Intrigue! and Suspense! and Politics!. (seriously politics doesn't have to be boring)

    Like take Game of Thrones for an example.

    We've got brave, square-jawed, two-fisted heroes people with deep character flaws that do more than just stab away their problems. They talk! And scheme! And attempt to form alliances that sometimes goes hideously wrong and winds up accidentally giving away key technology to the Hutts! pissing the wrong people off and wind up being executed for it!

    I mean, I can just do that with Backgrounds. But I feel like there should be more to it, you know? Like a selection of Social Talents you could take as well. Options to make Social encounters pop more than "Oh hey you rolled 1d20+4 and got a 15? The innkeeper takes the gold you slid across the counter, dropping it into a hidden pouch. 'Yeah, I've seen Pickman around. Painter, right? Stopped in for a pint the other night. Didn't look like he was sleeping too well.'"

    Ok, so I've seen people talk about this before in D&D 4E thread, General Roleplaying thread, and now here. And here is the thing; d20 is a binary game. When you break it down, all interacts boil down to two outcomes, you pass or fail. Swing a sword? Hit or Miss. Pick a door? You do or don't. Try to get someone to tell you something? They do or don't. You could do a range of success or failure, much like the Apocolypse World games but even then it's still binary. Hell, your favorite system is Star Wars and they had to make special dice so social stuff could have range (at the cost of combat complexity, imo). If you want to make social combat stuff then you can make a separate system for it, or do a basic modification of skills checks, or go play something else. But I'm not going to sell you on 13th Age if you want Game of Thrones, you have Dungeon World, you have FATE, you have other options.

  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Maybe it's just me, but I'm really getting a goosey feel about your posts in this thread.
    The first page is people talking about their own Icons: swapping individual ones out or replacing them wholesale. Is continuing that conversation to other mechanics somehow wrong? When people find systems they like, house rules start to spring up alongside them. I think the Escalation rules for combat propel the action forward, and the same concept could be applied outside of five foot steps and cleaves.

    Specifically, I'm looking for house rules for Social encounters to add to a game I was thinking of running. Does anyone know of any?

    jdarksun on
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Maybe it's just me, but I'm really getting a goosey feel about your posts in this thread.
    I'm honestly trying to delve into 13th Age to see if there's anything more to the system now than when I played it a few years ago. You guys spun it out into its own thread. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask here if there's more to it than an intentionally generic fantasy setting, strong character creation rules, and some combat maneuvers.

    The first page is people talking about their own Icons: swapping individual ones out or replacing them wholesale. Is continuing that conversation to other mechanics somehow wrong? When people find systems they like, house rules start to spring up alongside them. Surely it's not that unreasonable to think that I'm not the only person out there who thinks the Escalation rules for combat propel the action forward, and the same concept could be applied outside of five foot steps and cleaves?

    It's not but something about how you were posting gave me the feel you are being facetious. Especially the "We must dissent!" twice in your posts. Also, you've been roleplaying longer than I have and you know how social stuff happens in d20 games. If you are being serious, I'm sorry.

  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Eh, Icons are far more a story element than a game mechanic. Like, if you wanted to run Dark Sun with 13th Age mechanics, you could make the Sorcerer Kings the Icons. That...would address none of the mechanical elements of Dark Sun, though, it's only a story/setting change.

    Also I feel like you kinda jumped in rather aggressively critiquing. It's fine to critique a system's shortcomings and failings, and you can do that and still love a system, but it felt like you popped in and immediately attacked, deflected, counter-attacked, and then "oh yeah also this other thing that basically no d20 game meaningfully does" so it's like....okay you don't seem to like it, you don't seem to want to like it. Thanks for your inpuy and have a nice day.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Specifically, I'm looking for house rules for Social encounters to add to a game I was thinking of running. Does anyone know of any?

    I've never seen any, but that's pretty much true for any d20 game for me. I don't play these sorts of games for that system, so they could be out there, but you'd likely be better served finding a d20 game that already has those sorts of rules and either just play that, or find a way to combine the parts of the two systems you do like.

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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    Eh, Icons are far more a story element than a game mechanic. Like, if you wanted to run Dark Sun with 13th Age mechanics, you could make the Sorcerer Kings the Icons. That...would address none of the mechanical elements of Dark Sun, though, it's only a story/setting change.
    Speaking of:
    The Avangion
    Formerly, and still in some ways, Korgunard of Urik, the Avangion is a transformed being of immense arcane power. Dedicated to the use and propogation of preserver magic, Korgunard finds himself the de facto leader of the Veiled Alliance in Urik and a symbol for it's cause across the Tyr Region. A ceaseless foe of defilers, the Avangion has many very powerful enemies, but the budding of the current age of freedom and openness on Athas has seen the development of allies as well, scattered and disorganized as they might be.

    The Coming Storm
    Named for the omen he was born under, Stormcloud was a gladiatorial slave in Gulg until he won his position in the Hunter's Dagada. The sudden elevation is status would have led many to revel in their new lifestyle, but Stormcloud's dwarven blood and long incarceration had given rise to a Focus that would not be denied; the freedom of all sentient beings on Athas. When his attempts to use his new position to free the slaves of Gulg failed, and the resulting violent uprising was quashed, Stormcloud took to the forests around the city to avoid reprisals from the Forest Goddess. Freed or escaped slaves have been rallying to his cause in the decade since, and numerous uprisings have claimed him as a figure in their rebellion, though most of them do so spuriously. With his numbers swelling, Stormcloud is finding it harder and harder to remain a hidden force for freedom. He may soon be forced to act openly by shear weight of numbers.

    The Dragon
    An ancient being of almost unimaginable power, the Dragon has stalked the wastes of Athas since the green age. The beast is a defiler on a scale almost unimaginable to most, consuming entire settlements in his thirst for power. The little known truth is that the Dragon sees himself as the defender of this world, having been tasked ages ago with preventing the incursion of otherworldly forces, divine, infernal or otherwise. It is his gift to the people of Athas that they might rule themselves, rather than being ruled by forces beyond their kien.

    The Dread King
    Two thousand years ago, an exceedingly rare thing occured; an alliance between Sorceror Kings. Another of their number, Dregoth of Guistenal, was on the verge of completing a series of rituals that would have elevated him above his peers, possibly even giving him complete control of the Tyr Region. To prevent this from happening, the other monarchs banded together and laid waste to his kingdom, burying him within it. Defeat, and even death, have done little to quench Dregoth's thirst for power. He has amassed an undead army, and created a race of draconic generals to lead it. For now he bides his time, building his forces and acting surreptitiously against his slayers. When he has gathered enough strength, he will lay waste to the kingdoms of his brothers and sisters, claiming them for his own.

    The Khan
    Ambitious and ruthless, the Tondi clan Khan, Atark Aakusk, has transformed his clan from the untouchables of Kreen society into a force to be reckoned with. Their meteoric rise has caused no small amount of friction with the other Khanates, some of whom lost prime migration routes to this upstart clan. Atark is willing to do whatever it takes to establish and maintain the position of his Khanate, whether that means expanding Kreen territory into the populated regions of the Ivory Triangle or even making war on his fellow Khans. Some say that Atark sees himself as the Haazt, the Khan of Khans that will unite the Kreen peoples, but he has yet to declare such a thing publicly.

    The Pyreen
    Among the last and greatest creations of the ancient halfling nature-masters, the Pyreen has wandered the surface of Athas since it first rose out of the oceans of the Blue Age. Though she may not be the last of her kind, her brothers and sisters haven't made the sacred pilgrimage to the tower in several ages. In their absence, she stands as a lone guardian of life on Athas, and of the ancient halfling's plans for it. She has seen many setbacks in the last few ages, and it may soon be necessary for her to take a more direct hand in putting the development of Athasian lifeforms back on the proper track.

    The Restorer
    Far out on the edges of the Tyr Region, nestled in the protection of the Ringing Mountains, King Orionis rules the seemingly utopian kingdom of Kurn. One of Rajaat's original disciples, then called Keltis, this warrior-monarch still holds the ideals of a green and fertile Athas close to his heart. Though the ends he seeks are undoubtedly good for the health of the world as a whole, his methods still carry a strong measure of Rajaat's ruthlessness and uncompromising vision.

    The Shadow Sorceress
    In the City States, ilicit elven markets supply less-than-legal goods to everyone from slaves to the Sorceror Kings themselves. Though this sort of illegal activity has earned the elven people a reputation for being unreliable criminals, it has also secured them a huge amount of soft power in the more civilized areas of Athas. The markets themselves are decentralized, but the elven traders all answer back to the same person; their merchant queen, Verusa Kha. From her hidden fortress, Kha controls the flow of illicit trade & other criminal activity, and trains other elves in the ways of magic. Rumors persist that she also offers even less savory services, such as assassination and slave procurement, to those who can afford it, or can offer some equally valuable service in return.

    The True King
    Though his rule was ended and his city was taken by usurpers, Kalak has not been truly defeated. Those who now control Tyr think him dead, an assumption that the True King is more than willing to let them live with while he regains his strength. Aided by a core group of his former templars and a growing cult of followers, Kalak acts to undermine the position of the ruling parties in his rightful city while also destroying or diverting potential threats to the city itself. Once he regains his former glory, he needs a proper kingdom to rule, after all.

    The Tyrian Triumvirate
    Following the rebellion that ended with the death of King Kalak, the leaders of the rebel forces became the ruling triumvirate of the city state. Though their allegiance is fragile, and each pursues their own agendas, the former templar Tithian, the courageous gladiator Rikus and the sorceress Sadira have been effective at uniting the competing power blocks and keeping the city from tearing itself apart in the aftermath of the uprising. As their local situation stabilizes, the three begin looking to secure Tyr's place as a power in the region.

    Some of them are references to the dozens of Dark Sun campaigns I've run previously. The general timeline is after the fall of Tyr but before the war with Urik. I think at that point a couple of these would need reworked. Humanu could also make a compelling Icon in such a time period if the game were set in Tyr.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Fuck if this turns into multiposting but there's just too much shit getting bandied about for me not to.
    jdarksun wrote: »
    (also, re: "Player Characters don't have any meaningful Alignment in 13th Age" ... sure they do. The player's relationship (Positive / Conflicted / Negative) to the various categories of Icons (Heroic / Ambiguous / Villainous) is absolutely a version of Alignment. They might not have "Lawful Evil" on their character sheet, but a character with a Positive relationship with the Lich King is going to have just as explaining to do as one that worships Vecna)

    Yeah that's all in the book, and has nothing to do with what I said, and also actual Alignment is absolutely in the game, and just has nothing to do with PCs.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Icon Review:

    the Emperor: BORING. Though perhaps the best argument for "fill in the blanks yourself" since the nature of the Emperor is going to be the nature of most of the big civilization in the game.

    the Archmage: Yea, still boring though almost required in the setting. The technology that makes the Empire possible for the most part.

    the Elf Queen: I, uh, guess? As a counterpoint to the Emperor it sorta fits I guess given that racial (species) power blocks are a thing.

    the Dwarf King: Well, uh, see above. Though geez, is the next one going to be the black guy?

    the Orc Lord: ......damn it.

    the Crusader: Oh hey look, a cool idea! Not the base of Team Evil's Brute but that the Team Evil Brute is way too busy currently dealing with team gibbering tentacle face to worry about taking over the world is actually interesting. He's not a good guy but Team Good Guy doesn't want him gone as he's currently picking up the slack for their warrior dude being sorta deadish.

    the Three: Not my bag but has some interesting possibilities here. Also unlike some Icons I could mention manages to make a racial Icon actually interesting by clearly showing the internal conflict.

    the Lich King: A simultaneous foil to the Emperor and the Archmage. Feels a bit Skeletor-ish for me.

    the Diabolist: To be clear, 13th Age demons aren't really allies of Skeletor so much as they'd love to just murder every fucking one they can get their hands on, even those idiots in cultist robes. Also figuring out how to murder the undead is a high priority for the Diabolist so they can just murder everything.

    the Priestess: God Chick. Like, that is the entirely of my impression of her. How that differs meaningfully from God who is a Chick is questionable. To say she is bland is to give her too much credit.

    the Great Gold Wyrm: Warrior Jesus Figure. I'm a sucker for those so I sorta like him all in all. Bonus, good excuse for "Why is there evil in the world?" because Virginia the giant Dragon God's body doesn't completely plug the hole to demonville.

    the High Druid: Sorta bland but fills the role as a sympathetic third party that can oppose the good guys without being capital E evil. I also feel this is a good place to let players fill in the details as to how Druid's tend to Druid by virtue of their relationship with this Icon.

    The Prince of Shadows: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." For all of that I find him sorta annoying and a bit twee. Odds of him not existing and the whole thing just being wishful thinking/boogieman of the underworld set? Quite high.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Oatsjdarksun
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Point of Order: Diabolist is about devils, not demons. Demons are discussed at length in 13 True Ways and one of the options is as enemies of the devils (a la D&D tradition).

    13 True Ways really does a lot to flesh out the world and the Icons beyond what is mentioned in the core rulebook. I feel like the core rulebook really didn't want to focus too much on fleshing out the characters, since a) page count and b) they also needed to explain how all these new story bits actually worked.

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Oh yeah, it just fucks with my head as the folks the Diabolist is working with are the sort that even the bad guys DO NOT WANT, which makes me think demons rather than devils but then they wouldn't get to use the cool word of Diabolist and would have to use Demonist or something else silly sounding.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    You can count me in the people who doesn't mind that the icons and most of 13th Age are presented in a way that's pretty generic because they intend for you to make the stuff fit your game. They aren't publishing a setting they're trying to get you to buy into. They provide an interesting enough setting for new players or those who would like to not make one themselves, but they're pretty clear about their intentions with how they present things.

    I actually like it a lot better, because I was never going to use their setting anyway, so having the icons represent concepts/archetypes helps me think about which icons I want in my world without feeling like I have to drastically change things to fit. E.g. I think in my setting I'm going to have an arch druid icon who has turned into a huge tree, and s/he affects things in similar ways to what the book describes, like having half-orcs be born to human parents as a response to Orcs showing up in an area. But beyond that, I won't use anything else about the druid icon straight from the book.

    13A gives me sound mechanics and then just tries to offer creative ideas to inspire my own game, which is exactly what I want from RPGs. I don't need the icons to be masterfully crafted unique and interesting characters. If they did that, they'd just feel less modular and like they spent too much time detailing stuff I don't want anyway.

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    I must rip into this with the fury and passion of a thousand neckbeards. Before I start, every Icon is "blank" or "basic" because it's suppose to be your story and the Icons are just hooks for you to fill or ignore as you see fit.
    Icon Review:

    the Emperor: BORING. Though perhaps the best argument for "fill in the blanks yourself" since the nature of the Emperor is going to be the nature of most of the big civilization in the game.

    He's the ruler of the largest race in the world. He has the largest army in the Empire. So how do you decide to make him? Is he a blundering idiot, like Robert Baratheon? Is he a mad man like Kim Jong-il? Is he serious and just? How is his relationship with the other Icons?
    the Archmage: Yea, still boring though almost required in the setting. The technology that makes the Empire possible for the most part.
    Really? Quite a few times it's said that he protects the Empire with his magic, but he's also got secrets. And his magic goes against nature, which is why the High Druid dislikes him. And if Newton's Third Law applies to your game, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So what's the backlash of the Archmage's magic? That's interesting to me, and that's implied in the book:
    The True Danger
    Everything will be all right provided that nocatastrophe brings down the Archmage’s power nodes and plunges the Empire into a maelstrom of rampant elementals, natural forces, monsters from the Iron Sea, and demons from the Abyss.
    the Elf Queen: I, uh, guess? As a counterpoint to the Emperor it sorta fits I guess given that racial (species) power blocks are a thing.

    She holds three elven races under her command, has power equal to the Archmage, and is connected to every elf and every elf is connected to each other through her. Yes... she's boring.
    the Dwarf King: Well, uh, see above. Though geez, is the next one going to be the black guy?

    Now you are being a goose. The Dwarf King is trying to hold together an once powerful kingdom and wants to collect all the ancient relics that have been stolen from the Dwarven people. He wants to rebuild the glory of the dwarves but the truces he has with the different races (like the Elves) kinda hold him back.
    the Orc Lord: ......damn it.

    I'm stopping here because you are a goose. The Orc Lord and the orc people were created by an Elf Queen as a weapon to defeat the Wizard King before the time of Ages. Then once the battle was over, they were discarded, pushed out of the Empire and killed by the elves. The Orc Lord is a orc that has found a way to unite the fury of the scattered tribes of the Orcs to act as one army, to destroy those that betrayed them and the Empire they built on orc blood.

  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    No see it's funny because he's being a racist ironically

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Maybe I'm too tired to see it as a joke. It seem like a review of someone who just heard the names and never bothered to crack the books open.

    ToxJoshmvii
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Grunt:

    1) I was being humorous, it is like one of my two modes of posting.
    2) I was giving my impressions on the Icons.

    So yes, 1 means I was being flip in a way that was attempting to be amusing and 2 means that I'm Right, unless you somehow think you have a better handle on my impressions than I do?

    I'm also going to point out you are simultaneously asserting that the Icons are blanks while giving specific examples of their actions defining their characters. Those two things are mutually contradictory. In any given game my impressions might be more true than what you've listed, that is the nature of the player driven nature of the Icons and the hazy concept of "canon" that 13th Age espouses.

    Now your take on the Elf Queen just leaves me cold, yes yes elves are super special and she's the most special of all but your Orc King is actually interesting and has some pathos to it. It's almost like the actual discussion of folks views of the Icons that I was trying to provoke.

  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Maybe I'm too tired to see it as a joke. It seem like a review of someone who just heard the names and never bothered to crack the books open.

    Oh it wasn't funny to me either but I was trying to ignore it because what the fuck is wrong with you if you look at orcs and go "lol blacks" but yeah it was pretty obvious DA isn't actually bothering to actually read the material

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  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Uh, that wasn't asserting that Orcs and black are at all alike. The impression I've got of the Orc Lord is very two dimension and akin to what a racists view of race they don't like comes across as.

    Edit: All three of the PC racial icons come across as stereotypes to me and that was the intent of the joke.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Yes because you pulled Icons out of a hat and just happened to randomly pull the Orc Lord right after making a black joke. And it was all to provoke actual discussion and also you're Right, apparently?

    ok

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  • ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    Boy, you guys are being super srs in here about your basement elves.

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular

    Now your take on the Elf Queen just leaves me cold, yes yes elves are super special and she's the most special of all but your Orc King is actually interesting and has some pathos to it. It's almost like the actual discussion of folks views of the Icons that I was trying to provoke.

    Yeah, I was trying to find something special about the Elf Queen but she's really blank when you get to it. Other than keeping the elven races in line, she doesn't have much in the way interesting character. She's a sleeping power, strong enough to wage a war if she wanted to, but she just sits there in her Court, playing with her doll people.

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Elvenshae wrote: »
    Boy, you guys are being super srs in here about your basement elves.

    12 of my 13 ghosts are cranky so the whole is cranky but I'm not able to sleep yet because the ghosts are being really talkative right now.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular

    Now your take on the Elf Queen just leaves me cold, yes yes elves are super special and she's the most special of all but your Orc King is actually interesting and has some pathos to it. It's almost like the actual discussion of folks views of the Icons that I was trying to provoke.

    Yeah, I was trying to find something special about the Elf Queen but she's really blank when you get to it. Other than keeping the elven races in line, she doesn't have much in the way interesting character. She's a sleeping power, strong enough to wage a war if she wanted to, but she just sits there in her Court, playing with her doll people.

    Yea, this is what I was aiming towards with all three of the Racial Icons, they all just feel like hollow stereotypes.

    Regardless, I apparently screwed up my presentation of the joke and if I offended anybody I apologize. It is pretty horrible to compare any real world race to what passes as fantasy races, especially when my point was that the fantasy race has a ridiculously simplistic and destructive stereotype.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I think at this point maybe it's a good idea for all of us to take a short rest, spend some recoveries and make that recharge roll on the New Thread Excitement spell.

    I wonder if the Bard might be willing to sing us something chill.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    ElvenshaeTox
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    I'd like to point out that another reason why the Icons are somewhat generic is because it leaves them open to player editing for the One Unique Thing. A player could of an OUT like "The Emperor's 100th Bastard, destined to end his father's line" or "The Elf Queen's only lover before she ascended to the throne." If you make the Icon too detailed, you start limiting your players ability to modify the icons based on their OUT because it suddenly has to fit into a defined character.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    Grunt's Ghosts
  • doomybeardoomybear Hi People Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    I also think that for a newer player, the icons may still be very trope-y but maybe not as much as it does to someone who's been reading fantasy or playing D&D for a long time.

    For those who want a different and more involved setting, a while ago, they had a Kickstarter for 13th Age in Glorantha, which is apparently going to have a bunch of new stuff in it. It was supposed to be released June last year, so it's a bit late. The updates seem to indicate that they're getting close to done.

    doomybear on
    "Heaven is far away, but hell can be reached in a day." - the fool, from Ran by Kurosawa
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Yea, if you want an example of what Not Setting Lite 13th Age looks like the playtest packets are practically indecipherable as somebody who never did Hero Quest.

    Elvenshae
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Also the story makes it clear that the Dwarf King and the Elf Queen are more titles of perpetuity. They're not specific NPCs, but rather titled placeholders for the GMs NPCs. Those two, for me, are the most intentionally generic. Even the Emperor and the Archmage feel more specific, as though they are unique to the current age (and they may well be, in ages past there may have simply been the Wizard King). And while the High Druid and the Priestess also lack a fully fleshing out, they feel more vague than generic.

    Also don't directly link to KS @doomybear

    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    The Kickstarter has been closed for like 2 years. I'm fairly sure it's active Kickstarters we're not allowed to link.

    Edit: Huh, the rule makes no exception though it's clear the intent is to avoid marketing. I'd probably be safe and suggest removing it too.

    Edit2: And the site for that specific project hasn't been updated in like two years. Grah, not sure of a good replacement link.

    Edit3: Well whatever:
    http://www.13thageinglorantha.com/
    http://www.glorantha.com/

    DevoutlyApathetic on
  • doomybeardoomybear Hi People Registered User regular
    I dunno about the rules regarding Kickstarter, but it's easy enough to find on google that I'm not too worried about it.

    "Heaven is far away, but hell can be reached in a day." - the fool, from Ran by Kurosawa
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    So I'm going to write this down before I forget it.

    Rangers- How to give them complexity:

    Make them 4E rangers.

    Basically, give rangers 3 different "paths": Melee fighter, Archer, and Animal Trainer.

    Give Rangers the Tracker talent and then give them 2 talents to pick their two paths.

    Then give them powers to pick from per level. A power for each path, and one that would work for all three. For level 1, you get three powers, then you pick a power each level, giving you 12 powers at level 10.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    I think that, like a lot of the rules in 13th Age, the Icons as presented are designed to allow for ease of improv from the GM. Which is a laudable goal, certainly, if that's the kind of game you're running.

    I tend to run my epic fantasy games in a somewhat more structured way, which is why my campaigns would need a bit more definition from the Icons if I were to use them. The Dark Sun examples I posted above are definitely not blank slates, because their nature helps frame out the things I want out of adventures in the setting. Beyond that, players are free to use their various definition and buy in avenues to help define the campaign priorities.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    So I'm going to write this down before I forget it.

    Rangers- How to give them complexity:

    Make them 4E rangers.

    Basically, give rangers 3 different "paths": Melee fighter, Archer, and Animal Trainer.

    Give Rangers the Tracker talent and then give them 2 talents to pick their two paths.

    Then give them powers to pick from per level. A power for each path, and one that would work for all three. For level 1, you get three powers, then you pick a power each level, giving you 12 powers at level 10.

    Yeah there isn't a good clear archer "path" that already exists in 13A but what you're describing is basically the Druid talents for Warrior and Animal Companion. I would add the Terrain Caster and Wild Healer talents as well, to fully compliment the full sprctrum of what a ranger has been able to do over the course of so many games.

    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Archer is a really tough archetype to make interesting. When things go well, it's just putting shafts in the air in no real danger. When things go wrong, it's rarely the fault of the character and things can get lethal for them very quickly.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    ElvenshaeOats
  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    So I'm going to write this down before I forget it.

    Rangers- How to give them complexity:

    Make them 4E rangers.

    Basically, give rangers 3 different "paths": Melee fighter, Archer, and Animal Trainer.

    Give Rangers the Tracker talent and then give them 2 talents to pick their two paths.

    Then give them powers to pick from per level. A power for each path, and one that would work for all three. For level 1, you get three powers, then you pick a power each level, giving you 12 powers at level 10.

    Yeah there isn't a good clear archer "path" that already exists in 13A but what you're describing is basically the Druid talents for Warrior and Animal Companion. I would add the Terrain Caster and Wild Healer talents as well, to fully compliment the full sprctrum of what a ranger has been able to do over the course of so many games.

    Druids cover a lot; Warrior, Healer, Animal Companion, Shapeshifter, Elemental, and one other I can't remember but Final Fantasy Tactics is in my head for a reason. It's hard to not cross over with Hunter and vice versa. I would like an Elemental Bender class like Avatar because that would be fun but Monk/Elemental Druid does it kinda.

    As for Hunter, don't ask what the Druid does, ask what Hunter should do.

  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    Archer is a really tough archetype to make interesting. When things go well, it's just putting shafts in the air in no real danger. When things go wrong, it's rarely the fault of the character and things can get lethal for them very quickly.

    I think an archer that can create conditions on enemies is pretty good. Like give them disarm, target legs, and Hawkeye/Green Arrow trick arrows would make them nice controllers. With the idea of them being able to have two paths they can pick from, going Archer/Animal Companion gives them a one-two punch.

    Elvenshae
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    I like the 13th Age Ranger as is, at least on paper. If you want to be an archer, you take the archery talent and feat into it so you get to reroll missed attacks, and you take second shot so you get to shoot twice half the time, or even more if you feat into it and be a half elf for their racial power.

    Then you decide whether you want to take tracker and get a sweet 5 point background and be the character who can track people and nature guide and what not, plus get terrain stunt if you're the kind of player who likes that. Or you get an animal companion and add another attack for yourself each turn. Or you take the talents that make you crit more often.

    The 13A Ranger reminds me of archetypes like the champion fighter from 5E. And I think games benefit from having some of that simplicity.

    I know in the other thread Tox was talking about wanting a more complex Ranger for people who want that, and I totally get that. I am just personally fine with some of the classes being very simple and straightforward. If I had a player that was super into wanting to play a Ranger but wanted to be more complicated, I'd try to figure out if what they want to accomplish can be done via multiclassing, reflavoring existing stuff, etc. first, but I could see doing homebrewed new stuff if I couldn't find a solution we liked.

    Speaking of archers, I know in the other thread there was talk about Fighters being unable to be archers, so I was looking, and it seems like the talent support is there but not the maneuvers. You could take comeback strike, power attack, and deadeye archer and be pretty well off, it's just there are only like 4 or 5 flexible maneuvers that can be used for ranged. I think if I had someone wanting to play a ranger fighter i'd just open up more of the maneuvers to be able to be ranged or create some new ones and that'd be pretty easy to fix.

    Joshmvii on
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