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Voltron: Legendary Defender - Do ya like (Robot) Cats?

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Posts

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Wait so i havent paid any attention to the ages of the characters. Whats this about pedo ships?

    Presumably, Lance is like, 16 or 17 and Allura is like, late twenties early thirties.

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Wait so i havent paid any attention to the ages of the characters. Whats this about pedo ships?

    Presumably, Lance is like, 16 or 17 and Allura is like, late twenties early thirties.

    Oh ok. Thats, well its not good but My initial fear was something like Pidge being 14 and in a relationship or something.

    Honestly the most shocking thing about this is that anybody behind the scenes wanted Allura and Lance to get together. The show seemed bery decided on that front.

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    This all sounds insane but it explains so many things. The characters were all set up for pretty obvious arcs in the first season and then turn out to be completely static. It had been driving me crazy that Keith never really became a real leader and Lance never really stopped being an immature twat.

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I feel like I watched a completely different show.

    I enjoyed it. I thought it was very good. It offered representation in a children's show that doesn't happen enough IMO.
    It had complicated relationships with characters showing progression over time and it wasn't just purely about good vs evil.

    It also had giant robots punching each other in very cool ways.

    I don't think I could care less about the behind the scenes drama. That team produced a really exceptional show.

    Also, that Twitter grab on the last page looks like some Unabomber-level crazy stuff. Why can't a bunch of adults just enjoy the show for what it was instead of pining for what some random people on Twitter are saying it could have been?

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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Hunk kept on being the fat joke character who should die in a fire.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    I feel like I watched a completely different show.

    I enjoyed it. I thought it was very good. It offered representation in a children's show that doesn't happen enough IMO.
    It had complicated relationships with characters showing progression over time and it wasn't just purely about good vs evil.

    It also had giant robots punching each other in very cool ways.

    I don't think I could care less about the behind the scenes drama. That team produced a really exceptional pilot.

    Also, that Twitter grab on the last page looks like some Unabomber-level crazy stuff. Why can't a bunch of adults just enjoy the show for what it was instead of pining for what some random people on Twitter are saying it could have been?

    That community from the little Ive seen is toxic as fuck.

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I feel like I watched a completely different show.

    I enjoyed it. I thought it was very good. It offered representation in a children's show that doesn't happen enough IMO.
    It had complicated relationships with characters showing progression over time and it wasn't just purely about good vs evil.

    It also had giant robots punching each other in very cool ways.

    I don't think I could care less about the behind the scenes drama. That team produced a really exceptional pilot.

    Also, that Twitter grab on the last page looks like some Unabomber-level crazy stuff. Why can't a bunch of adults just enjoy the show for what it was instead of pining for what some random people on Twitter are saying it could have been?

    Well, because a lot of people disagree that there was meaningful progression, or that the representation was as real or meaningful as it could've been

    They're valid complaints, and don't simply stem from reading too much Twitter

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    I feel like I watched a completely different show.

    I enjoyed it. I thought it was very good. It offered representation in a children's show that doesn't happen enough IMO.
    It had complicated relationships with characters showing progression over time and it wasn't just purely about good vs evil.

    It also had giant robots punching each other in very cool ways.

    I don't think I could care less about the behind the scenes drama. That team produced a really exceptional pilot.

    Also, that Twitter grab on the last page looks like some Unabomber-level crazy stuff. Why can't a bunch of adults just enjoy the show for what it was instead of pining for what some random people on Twitter are saying it could have been?

    Well, because a lot of people disagree that there was meaningful progression, or that the representation was as real or meaningful as it could've been

    They're valid complaints, and don't simply stem from reading too much Twitter

    Just because they're complaints doesn't really make them valid. If you look at the characters in the pilot and compare them to the characters in the finale it would be disingenuous to say there's been no progression.

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    Look, friend, I ain't gonna get into this with you, but as a general rule of thumb don't assume that what you perceive as a sufficient level of depth to a show should be enough to satisfy other people

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Given how he's handled through the rest of the show, I would absolutely believe that Shiro's sexuality wasn't a thing until the actual production of Season 7

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    Look, friend, I ain't gonna get into this with you, but as a general rule of thumb don't assume that what you perceive as a sufficient level of depth to a show should be enough to satisfy other people

    Sure, these are all just opinions. The level of hand-wringing being displayed in some places however is beyond the pale for something that is ostensibly a children's show.

    Fandom in general just seems like an awful sack of angry bees these days. I'll let the show stand on its own merits and be happy with that.

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    I haven't finished the final season yet, but I can absolutely understand some people being dissatisfied with some of the character development, and the actual commitment to LGBT or PoC representation

    Personally I love a great deal of things about the show, and the bad stuff isn't enough to damper my high regard for it (yet I guess), but I absolutely don't think it's perfect



    as a side note, how fucking good is the sound design and music in this show

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  • Grey GhostGrey Ghost Registered User regular
    I think it might actually be more important for children's shows to get representation right

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Anzekay wrote: »
    I haven't finished the final season yet, but I can absolutely understand some people being dissatisfied with some of the character development, and the actual commitment to LGBT or PoC representation

    Personally I love a great deal of things about the show, and the bad stuff isn't enough to damper my high regard for it (yet I guess), but I absolutely don't think it's perfect



    as a side note, how fucking good is the sound design and music in this show

    The found footage episode in the final season (which I imagine a ton of people will hate for being "filler") had some absolutely incredible sound design and direction.

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  • Indie WinterIndie Winter die Krähe Rudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    *whispers real low in case I get mobbed* the problems these show creators had with sexuality and representation were all already present in Avatar: LoK and Korra and Asami hooking up in the end was absolutely a way of placating a vocal and toxic fandom disappointed with the overall lackluster quality of the show and it worked hook line and sinker which is way people expected that out of Voltron

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    I was unhappy with Season 7—partially for the trope problems that have been gone over before, but maybe even moreso because the writing and pacing kind of fell all to pieces in the latter half

    We're still gonna watch the last one! I gotta see where everyone ends up. I hope Allura and Lance don't end up a couple, though—she's my favorite character, and I don't want her in a relationship that only exists because the grossboy really had feelings for her, and was persistent, so sure he gets to be with the girl he likes

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    I think it might actually be more important for children's shows to get representation right

    I agree. I disagree with the premise that they really got anything wrong here.

    It could have been better for sure but most things can be.

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    *whispers real low in case I get mobbed* the problems these show creators had with sexuality and representation were all already present in Avatar: LoK and Korra and Asami hooking up in the end was absolutely a way of placating a vocal and toxic fandom disappointed with the overall lackluster quality of the show and it worked hook line and sinker which is way people expected that out of Voltron

    I don't think you're going to find a lot of people in this thread who are going to jump out to defend the handling of Asami and Korra's non-romance in the show itself

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Anzekay wrote: »
    I haven't finished the final season yet, but I can absolutely understand some people being dissatisfied with some of the character development, and the actual commitment to LGBT or PoC representation

    Personally I love a great deal of things about the show, and the bad stuff isn't enough to damper my high regard for it (yet I guess), but I absolutely don't think it's perfect



    as a side note, how fucking good is the sound design and music in this show

    The found footage episode in the final season (which I imagine a ton of people will hate for being "filler") had some absolutely incredible sound design and direction.

    I fuckin loved that episode. it was very sweet and very funny

  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Grey Ghost wrote: »
    I think it might actually be more important for children's shows to get representation right

    I agree. I disagree with the premise that they really got anything wrong here.

    It could have been better for sure but most things can be.

    Ezor and Zethrid were revealed as a couple only after capturing and torturing the paladins, and moments before being blown up, although
    season 8 reveals they survived. Zethrid is still evil though.

    Adam had one brief flashback scene before being killed. Also was the only one of the pilots in his squad to die screaming.

    Shiro was revealed as not-straight in the same season where he was demoted to background character, was depicted as functionally useless without his prosthetic, had most of his role replaced by Keith's dog ex machina, was beaten by an enemy he'd previously fought to a stalemate, was definitively excluded from Voltron (which was shown to be stronger without him), and stopped interacting with most of his friends. Also was killed at least twice (once as himself and once as Kuron).

    My thoughts on the epilogue are in spoilers above.

    edit: to be fair, most of the issues with Shiro's treatment in general can be explained by dos Santos and Montgomery resenting the fact that they weren't allowed to kill him off for good, as they've both stated openly multiple times.

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Yeah, I still don't agree with much of that interpretation. Shiro honestly never really felt like a background character to me for starters. Ezor and Zethrid's relationship seemed pretty obvious to me too - even my 7 year old niece picked up on the fact that they were lovers.

    It seems to be lost on people that this is a giant space-opera being crammed into 24-30 minute episodes. Not everything on screen is always going to be explicit.

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  • Moth 13Moth 13 Volcaregular Registered User regular
    Zethrid
    Has the face turn where she helps them with the big battle at the White Hole.

  • WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    Moth 13 wrote: »
    Zethrid
    Has the face turn where she helps them with the big battle at the White Hole.

    Zethrid/Ezor question:
    I think I missed an episode... when did Ezor change sides? Acxa said she left Zethrid, or something, but the last I remember of them was that they were on an exploding ship.

  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Yeah, I still don't agree with much of that interpretation. Shiro honestly never really felt like a background character to me for starters. Ezor and Zethrid's relationship seemed pretty obvious to me too - even my 7 year old niece picked up on the fact that they were lovers.

    It seems to be lost on people that this is a giant space-opera being crammed into 24-30 minute episodes. Not everything on screen is always going to be explicit.

    To be honest, all of my issues with Shiro's arc can be summed up thus:
    Season 1 wrote:
    Do you really think a [disabled, traumatized] monster like you can be a paladin of Voltron?
    Season 7 wrote:
    No.

    Calica on
    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

    What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.

    Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).

    The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."

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  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    From my straight perspective, the new She-Ra has been both wonderfully bold and very subtle about LGBTA representation. Especially when compared to Voltron.

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    We just finished watching the final few episodes.

    I gotta say, despite all the obvious problems behind the scenes, and the handful of issues I have with the narrative and my few disappointments with the ending, I really love the whole show. The production quality was phenomenal from start to finish, and it easily has one of my favourite sci-fi soundtracks to date.

    S8 ending spoilers
    Wow they really channelled Gurren Lagann for this final season. Right down to the enormous scale, combining mechs, drill attacks, heroic sacrifices and redemption of former villains. They even Nia'd Allura and had a token wedding at the end!

    I'm not super stoked about Allura being the one to give up her life at the end, even if of all the characters it was most appropriate for her to. I honestly liked the romance between her and Lance; I firmly think he grew a great deal over the course of the series, and as did his immature crush develop into genuine admiration and love. Giving the two of them that connection in the series' final season only to take it away doesn't sit right with me.

    I'm also a bit let down by the decision to just have Shiro marry some random guy, without any prior development of it at all. Especially with that in-your-face kiss at the end. It felt incredibly token, and felt like they were trying to mirror the finale of Legend of Korra without actually giving us any development like Korra at least did. I'm not a shipper by any means, but I really did think they were building towards something happening between Shiro and Keith. Their relationship in series 7 built to such a strong point that I genuinely thought it was happening. I think I would've preferred they just not have a wedding scene as Shiro's epilogue.

  • veritastalpaveritastalpa Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

    What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.

    Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).

    The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."

    While he was not able to continue to be a paladin, he found a different role that he could excel at. Leadership of the team and Captain'ing the Atlas. Why didn't he become a paladin again? There are only 5, and those 5 slots were filled by the time he came back.
    As for being capable, he clearly still was since he managed to combine the Atlas with Voltron and help pilot it during the final couple episodes. So I am not really sure why you are making a big deal out of this.

    As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.

  • BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    Those rumors make some sense to me, I feel like the show was good, but inconsistent overall. I feel like Hunk got the shortest end of the stick when it came to his absolute lack of character development. In fact none of the characters really got fully developed I feel.

    Still enjoyed it though

  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    yeah I'm pretty sure the events of the series are across quite a bit of time

    and Keith gets that weird time dilation thing so he's like 3 years older than he'd usually be

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

    What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.

    Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).

    The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."

    I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.

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  • Moth 13Moth 13 Volcaregular Registered User regular
    Moth 13 wrote: »
    Zethrid
    Has the face turn where she helps them with the big battle at the White Hole.

    Zethrid/Ezor question:
    I think I missed an episode... when did Ezor change sides? Acxa said she left Zethrid, or something, but the last I remember of them was that they were on an exploding ship.
    That was one of the reason I thought some rewrites happened, since that stuff was skipped over, Ezor just shows up by turning off invisibility in some scenes, and she gets like one word of dialogue.

  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

    What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.

    Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).

    The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."

    I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.

    ...?

    As far as we're ever told, Shiro wanted to be two things: an explorer first, and later a paladin. I really don't understand where you're getting the bolded.

    If anything, the show seemed to insist to the end that Keith was Destined For Greatness, despite not really giving him an arc to support it.

    I started watching Voltron a few weeks before season 5 came out; maybe it's easier to see the story threads when they're not spread out over two years.
    As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.

    The "pedophilic" ships those tweets are referring to are Shiro/any paladin, but especially Shiro/Keith, after the handbook came out listing Shiro as 25 and the rest of the paladins as teenagers. It was a (silly, imho) concern about the fandom, not the show itself.

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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    iirc Keith is 18 at the start of the series, and 21 at the end (thanks to time dialation)

    shiro is 25/26

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

    What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.

    Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).

    The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."

    I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.

    ...?

    As far as we're ever told, Shiro wanted to be two things: an explorer first, and later a paladin. I really don't understand where you're getting the bolded.

    If anything, the show seemed to insist to the end that Keith was Destined For Greatness, despite not really giving him an arc to support it.

    I started watching Voltron a few weeks before season 5 came out; maybe it's easier to see the story threads when they're not spread out over two years.
    As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.

    The "pedophilic" ships those tweets are referring to are Shiro/any paladin, but especially Shiro/Keith, after the handbook came out listing Shiro as 25 and the rest of the paladins as teenagers. It was a (silly, imho) concern about the fandom, not the show itself.

    Exactly. And he was always destined to be a leader and the show focuses on his struggle to grow into that role.

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator mod
    *whispers real low in case I get mobbed* the problems these show creators had with sexuality and representation were all already present in Avatar: LoK and Korra and Asami hooking up in the end was absolutely a way of placating a vocal and toxic fandom disappointed with the overall lackluster quality of the show and it worked hook line and sinker which is way people expected that out of Voltron

    I won't defend their handling of their romance in the show, but I think your interpretation of why it happened is way off

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  • BlankzillaBlankzilla KOOKABUNGA LIVES Registered User regular
    Also Season 2 of Korra is really the only one that had any sort of lackluster response?

    1 was received pretty well and 3 and 4 were really well regarded

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    edited December 2018
    Also I think calling a Fanbase toxic is getting way out of control. There will be fans who are bad fans. They will always exist that doesn’t make the entire community toxic.

    Voltron Doesn’t seem to have a particularly toxic environment at all? People were shipping different peopl doesn’t seem to have a particularly toxic environment at all? People were shipping different characters. That’s very normal for fandom. The only toxic thing is that apparently a show runner on the show started to do things to spite ships he didn’t approve of.

    nightmarenny on
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  • CalicaCalica Registered User regular
    Calica wrote: »
    Calica wrote: »
    You interpret Shiro as a disabled/traumatized monster?

    Not to mention, that seems to neglect the end of Shiro's arc completely.

    What? No. That's what Sendak (or Shiro himself, it's not clear) tells him in Crystal Venom.

    Shiro's arc, as explicitly set up in s1-s2, was supposed to be about him facing and overcoming his fears that he's a Galra weapon and/or damaged beyond repair, and thus unworthy to be the Black Paladin. Then he (well, his clone) turns out to be a Galra weapon, his PTSD never gets dealt with, and he's apparently unworthy to be a paladin (though it's never explained why).

    The show itself told us, "This is what this character's goal is," and then, later, "...and he doesn't get to achieve it." Or, alternatively, "These are this character's worst fears about himself," and later, "...and he's right."

    I don't think you're giving the show credit here as Shiro's story is more complex than that. A big part of his arc is that he's destined for a leadership role but can't fully embrace it because of his background/desire to just be an on-the-ground grunt. The entire final season and penultimate season are about him growing into that role.

    ...?

    As far as we're ever told, Shiro wanted to be two things: an explorer first, and later a paladin. I really don't understand where you're getting the bolded.

    If anything, the show seemed to insist to the end that Keith was Destined For Greatness, despite not really giving him an arc to support it.

    I started watching Voltron a few weeks before season 5 came out; maybe it's easier to see the story threads when they're not spread out over two years.
    As for the Lance/Allura thing, iirc Lance is 18 by the time they start dating. While Allura is somewhere between 19 and 28.

    The "pedophilic" ships those tweets are referring to are Shiro/any paladin, but especially Shiro/Keith, after the handbook came out listing Shiro as 25 and the rest of the paladins as teenagers. It was a (silly, imho) concern about the fandom, not the show itself.

    Exactly. And he was always destined to be a leader and the show focuses on his struggle to grow into that role.

    How does being booted from the Black Lion for no apparent reason fit into that? Especially after an entire episode about Shiro proving himself to the Black Lion, specifically? I'm honestly confused, and honestly curious.

    Snarky comment earlier was uncalled for; I apologize. I just legitimately don't understand where you're getting this interpretation, and I would like to. 'Cause the other thing is, Shiro was a competent leader from the very beginning. Keith was the one who needed to grow into a leadership role. (The show skipped the "growth" part of his arc entirely, but that's a different issue.)

    Jedoc wrote: »
    The GOP cares about babies until they're born, soldiers until they're in need of care, and families until they interfere with stockholder dividends.
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