Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

Shooting in Florida gay club, 50+ casualties currently feared

1151617181921»

Posts

  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    And to make things clearer, I am emphatically pro gun control. But in order to gain any traction when talking about it, it's critically important to be informed. One of the worst things that constantly happens is a legislator or high profile public figure makes a statement on gun control, and gets something seriously wrong, which immediately causes the other side to jump on the, 'they're trying to legislate shit they don't even understand!' And that's a fair point, and one that there's no reason for us to be giving them. There are dozens of rational, pretty damn unassailable pro gun control arguments one can make, and every time a Michael Moore makes a wildly inaccurate claim about guns, they all get erased as anyone who might have listened instead gets to point and laugh at the idiot, which is more entertaining and less challenging than hearing reason.

    Being informed is crucial.

    Darth WaiterJohnny ChopsockyDedwrekkaDoobhBertezBertezOghulkTurkeygtrmpmasterofmetroidStiltsRoyceSraphimSkeithRankenphileZonugalDouglasDangerCaulk Bite 6chrishallett83SixshotStrikerNeoTomaJusticeforPlutoEdith UpwardsElldrenOlivawShadowenMulletudeButters
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    That's fair, when I learned the difference between hollowpoint, softpoint, and fullmetal jacket bullets in my international law class I did not take into account the difference in handgun 'stopping power' compared to a rifle or what have you. I'll be sure to keep this in mind next time.

    Twitch Channel
    Steam: munkus_beaver
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
    http://www.ccfa.org/
  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) I want to cut to the feelingRegistered User regular
    any gun control argument that reaches the ear of folk like my dad seems more specifically tailored to make him clutch his guns tighter

    I manage to lower his hackles on a phone call, where I pointed out just how fucking stupid people can be, and why they don't compare to someone like him (who is part of a gun club that is teaching him safety + responsibility along with marksmanship)

    weapons also need to be obtainable for folk who do need them

    which could include low income folk who actually hunt to eat (they exist!)
    as well as folk who can't depend on police protection

    I am streamer, destroyer of worlds. [M, Tu, W, F: 2-6 pm EST] and [Saturday: 3-8 pm EST]
    Twitter
    Metzger Meister
  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    If there's one thing gun owners hate, it's idiots with guns. You can't really engage on a 'keep guns from idiots' level, because you'll hit the OUR FREEDOMS wall. The best way to get a foot in the door is suggesting education for idiots. Then it's a small step to mandatory education, which is basically the same thing as licensing, and you can't realistically do licensing without registration. And once registration is a given, legal guns are now traceable and countable. Those are all huge steps that if presented outright would cause instant bristling.

    ObiFettRoyceSraphimDarth WaiterCaulk Bite 6chrishallett83DoobhBahamutZEROElldrenShadowen
  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Wait, are cruciform bayonets banned by the Geneva Conventions or the Hague Convention?

    I was pretty sure it was the former, but now I'm doubting myself

    Neither the Geneva nor Hague Conventions have anything to say about bayonets. Very common urban myth that spike, crucifirm, triangular, or serrated bayos were outlawed due to causing needless and excessive injury, but all were in use by NATO countries well after the conventions were signed.

    Most people assume that these kinds of bayos were banned because they mostly dissapear after a certain point in history, but it's actually because a bladed bayonet is simply infinitely more useful, and once they were able to be made as cheaply and efficiently as spikes, spikes were obsolete.

    Darth WaiterMunkus BeaverElldren
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Knob wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    I mean, I'm glad I'm never going to be in a situation where I have to try and take down a live shooter in a crowd of civilians. I'm not going to rag on the cops too hard because it is a situation so impossibly stressful that no one here can possibly identify with it. Yeah, someone probably missed and killed a person. They'll have to live with that for the rest of their lives, and the alternative was simply "don't try and stop the shooter"

    For me it's less that I'm admonishing the cops, and more just that it's a hard counter to that dumbass argument. Like, if trained police officers who are expected to possibly be in this sort of situation one day can't resolve a shooter scenario without some friendly fire casualties, a random gun enthusiast certainly isn't going to do any better.

    There's a little tirade I get into whenever I hear people talk about shit like that, about all the little things that cops need in order to minimize causalities. Because it isn't just training.

    They have particular guns and ammo as well, so that whatever they hit does not get passed through and whatever they hit is going to die. They use hollow points, shit that is against the Geneva Convention for Wartime Usage to achieve this effect. Random ass civilians, aside from not having the proper training, have a random chance as to what kind of bullet they use, and the more power gun, the more solid bullet, the more it pierces, the more collateral damage. So even if they hit the target, they might hit someone behind their target.

    Because Lord knows someone with a conceal/carry would never go with an absurdly powerful handgun.

    The 4 Geneva Conventions cover things like not firing on medical personnel or attacking hospitals, ensuring wounded are cared for regardless of nationality or enemy status, humane treatment of POWs, and protections for civilians and noncombatants. It's an extremely common pop culture flub to call certain tactics and weapons as banned by the Geneva Convention. Hollowpoint and frangible ammunition are banned in warfarethe by NATO treaty countries, but under the Hague Convention, not Geneva.

    Handguns in general have a slow enough muzzle velocity that overpenetration between hardball and hollowpoint is minor, not to mention that being shot by hardball is dramatically more survivable.

    Once we start getting into stuff where overpenetration is a major factor, we're getting out of stuff that is realistically carryable.

    I still don't want a hothead yahoo with a Dirty Harry complex in the middle of an already fucked situation, mind. But accidental overpenetration from having the wrong gun/ammo isn't really one of the reasons.


    I think it's more of a misunderstanding, because after the Geneva Conventions were signed there were additional conventions that happened in Geneva, but they were United Nations conventions unconnected to the original 'Geneva Conventions'. So things like the bans on incendiary weapons, blinding lasers, and landmines come from UN conventions in Geneva, but not what's normally known as the Geneva Convention.

  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    The Convention on Conventional Weapons was signed in '81, and had nothing to do with expanding ammunition, bayonets, or .50 caliber rifles which are the main offenders of That's Against The Geneva Convention myths

  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Realtor Santa ClaritaRegistered User regular
    Didn't the Geneva Convention also put in that thing about shooting mans as they parachuted out of destroyed aircraft?

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited June 2016
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Didn't the Geneva Convention also put in that thing about shooting mans as they parachuted out of destroyed aircraft?

    To be honest, I don't really know which one. There is a Hague Rule, which says:
    Hague Rules of Air Warfare
    Article 20 of the 1923 Hague Rules of Air Warfare provides: “In the event of an aircraft being disabled, the persons trying to escape by means of parachutes must not be attacked during their descent

    And there is a Geneva Conventions Rule, codified in the 70s. Since the Geneva Convention Rule was codified later, I would guess it is the more followed one.

    Public International law is not my forte at all. I had to double check which was right and I think nobody followed Hague so they codified the Geneva Convention rule.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Twitch Channel
    Steam: munkus_beaver
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
    http://www.ccfa.org/
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Didn't the Geneva Convention also put in that thing about shooting mans as they parachuted out of destroyed aircraft?

    To be honest, I don't really know which one. There is a Hague Rule, which says:
    Hague Rules of Air Warfare
    Article 20 of the 1923 Hague Rules of Air Warfare provides: “In the event of an aircraft being disabled, the persons trying to escape by means of parachutes must not be attacked during their descent

    And there is a Geneva Conventions Rule, codified in the 70s. Since the Geneva Convention Rule was codified later, I would guess it is the more followed one.

    Public International law is not my forte at all. I had to double check which was right and I think nobody followed Hague so they codified the Geneva Convention rule.

    sig.png
    chrishallett83DisruptedCapitalistOghulk
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Realtor Santa ClaritaRegistered User regular
    800 rounds a minute from .50 cal shells out of 6 guns, I'd imagine, would turn a person into yogurt in 10 seconds. That's a fucking brutal story.

    TossrockCaulk Bite 6DisruptedCapitalistShadowenSixshotStrikerOghulkRaijin Quickfoot
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Tossrock wrote: »
    Pinfeldorf wrote: »
    Didn't the Geneva Convention also put in that thing about shooting mans as they parachuted out of destroyed aircraft?

    To be honest, I don't really know which one. There is a Hague Rule, which says:
    Hague Rules of Air Warfare
    Article 20 of the 1923 Hague Rules of Air Warfare provides: “In the event of an aircraft being disabled, the persons trying to escape by means of parachutes must not be attacked during their descent

    And there is a Geneva Conventions Rule, codified in the 70s. Since the Geneva Convention Rule was codified later, I would guess it is the more followed one.

    Public International law is not my forte at all. I had to double check which was right and I think nobody followed Hague so they codified the Geneva Convention rule.


    damn

    cB557SixshotStrikerSkeithNeoTomaRoyceSraphimToxJacques L'HommeDisruptedCapitalistElldrenOlivawShadowenOghulk
  • TossrockTossrock too weird to live too rare to dieRegistered User regular
    I like to think the convention was actually enacted after someone heard that story and was like, jesus christ

    sig.png
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    He earned his fate.

    PinfeldorfSkeithRoyceSraphimLabelFearghaillA duck!OghulkZibblsnrt
  • ZoelZoel I suppose... I'd put it on Registered User regular
    I've never really felt the whole trained to use firearms argument. I mean, anyone can be trained on how to use a gun and shoot a little bit better, but one of my eyes has better acuity than the other and no matter how much I trained I probably wouldn't win any competitions.

    But I mean yeah if you're one of the people who is a certified top 10 worldwide hand gun user who once single handedly saved a baby falling from a third story window while counter assassinating someone trying to assassinate the prime minister of Italy despite the fact that you could only remember how to speak German at the time (because that's what you were discussing the Nobel Literature prize in during your lecture the previous day, where you discussed the horrors and lack of ethics in warfare)

    well. sure. I can give my blessing to the three or so people on earth who never miss the bullseye and can be trusted with Law Enforcement authority.

    A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
    However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    Zoel wrote: »
    I've never really felt the whole trained to use firearms argument. I mean, anyone can be trained on how to use a gun and shoot a little bit better, but one of my eyes has better acuity than the other and no matter how much I trained I probably wouldn't win any competitions.

    But I mean yeah if you're one of the people who is a certified top 10 worldwide hand gun user who once single handedly saved a baby falling from a third story window while counter assassinating someone trying to assassinate the prime minister of Italy despite the fact that you could only remember how to speak German at the time (because that's what you were discussing the Nobel Literature prize in during your lecture the previous day, where you discussed the horrors and lack of ethics in warfare)

    well. sure. I can give my blessing to the three or so people on earth who never miss the bullseye and can be trusted with Law Enforcement authority.

    You're being a goose, here. Kindly refrain from that.

    jnij103vqi2i.png
  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    Zoel wrote: »
    I've never really felt the whole trained to use firearms argument. I mean, anyone can be trained on how to use a gun and shoot a little bit better, but one of my eyes has better acuity than the other and no matter how much I trained I probably wouldn't win any competitions.

    But I mean yeah if you're one of the people who is a certified top 10 worldwide hand gun user who once single handedly saved a baby falling from a third story window while counter assassinating someone trying to assassinate the prime minister of Italy despite the fact that you could only remember how to speak German at the time (because that's what you were discussing the Nobel Literature prize in during your lecture the previous day, where you discussed the horrors and lack of ethics in warfare)

    well. sure. I can give my blessing to the three or so people on earth who never miss the bullseye and can be trusted with Law Enforcement authority.

    You're being a goose, here. Kindly refrain from that.

    Not really, no. British beat cops don't carry guns. A lot of people would rather that be the case in their country also. How does that old saying go - "when you're holding a hammer, all your problems start to look like nails"?

    The Hanged ManRainfallZonugalShadowenSolarPanda4YouOghulkUrielButtersMatevArdol
  • ZoelZoel I suppose... I'd put it on Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    I was more referring to the notion that concealed carry is automatically okay for anyone who has training, if that was unclear. The law enforcement bit was the notion that anyone not actually a police officer should probably have a pretty good idea of what is and isn't legal if they're going to have that privilege. Sorry if I stepped over the line, there.

    Zoel on
    A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
    However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
    chrishallett83cB557
  • FiendishrabbitFiendishrabbit Registered User regular
    Knob wrote: »
    The Convention on Conventional Weapons was signed in '81, and had nothing to do with expanding ammunition, bayonets, or .50 caliber rifles which are the main offenders of That's Against The Geneva Convention myths

    Ammunition designed to expand ARE however against the conventions of war. Specificly the 1899 Hague convention (reaffirmed by the 1907 convention, the 1949 geneva convention and the 1981 Geneva convention). The convention itself prohibited the use of expanding ammunition (at the time only between signatories) and International courts have on several occasions since established that since 1907 (and the second Hague convention) these rules have become such an established part of the conventions of war that they apply to non-signatories as well (for example rebels or non-recognized states).

    "The western world sips from a poisonous cocktail: Polarisation, populism, protectionism and post-truth"
    -Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    Zoel wrote: »
    I was more referring to the notion that concealed carry is automatically okay for anyone who has training, if that was unclear. The law enforcement bit was the notion that anyone not actually a police officer should probably have a pretty good idea of what is and isn't legal if they're going to have that privilege. Sorry if I stepped over the line, there.

    Yes, it was unclear. Thank you for this.

    jnij103vqi2i.png
    cB557Zoel
  • KnobKnob TURN THE BEAT BACK InternetModerator mod
    Knob wrote: »
    The Convention on Conventional Weapons was signed in '81, and had nothing to do with expanding ammunition, bayonets, or .50 caliber rifles which are the main offenders of That's Against The Geneva Convention myths

    Ammunition designed to expand ARE however against the conventions of war. Specificly the 1899 Hague convention (reaffirmed by the 1907 convention, the 1949 geneva convention and the 1981 Geneva convention). The convention itself prohibited the use of expanding ammunition (at the time only between signatories) and International courts have on several occasions since established that since 1907 (and the second Hague convention) these rules have become such an established part of the conventions of war that they apply to non-signatories as well (for example rebels or non-recognized states).

    Thanks, but I already covered that.

  • Ms DapperMs Dapper Cheers Luv! King's RowRegistered User regular


    Just fucking sigh

    Just siiiiiiiiiiiigh

    tumblr_oj5c1nDyyk1sk79exo1_250.png
    Tumblr | Twitter PSN: misterdapper Av by beroberos Sig by jawlipops
    cB557chrishallett83KnobDarth WaiterPinfeldorfEdith UpwardslonelyahavaStiltsCaulk Bite 6NartwakSkeithOlivawZonugalThe BetgirlShadowenHacksawGatsbyAngelinaturtleantMagellTankHammerToxintropMoth 13OghulkDedwrekkaFencingsaxTrippyJingUrielmasterofmetroidButtersJaysonFourMatevMetzger MeisterRaijin QuickfootArdolStraightziNarbusPsycohed
  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Elrond Hubbard Mordor XenuRegistered User regular
    Yes, surely this is the time when a religion that has lasted two millenia will be undone by the 'unbearable' sight of multi-colored nylon. (What an asshole.)

    lonelyahavaPanda4YouJaysonFourMatevPsycohed
  • lonelyahavalonelyahava Mortius is correct Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    i sometimes find christmas decorations unbearable.

    Know what I do?

    I deal with it.

    Usually by grumbling alot.

    Darth WaiterZonugalturtleantMagellTankHammerToxJaysonFourDisruptedCapitalistMetzger MeisterPsycohed
  • Darth WaiterDarth Waiter Elrond Hubbard Mordor XenuRegistered User regular
    i sometimes find christmas decorations unbearable.

    Know what I do?

    I deal with it.

    Usually by grumbling alot.

    I feel the same way about Christmas music, so much so that I won't eat out or shop anywhere that Christmas music is playing.

  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Spare a tear for the poor, ever persecuted American Christian
    I don't think I need to say "not all American Christians" but just in case, here it is.

    Caulk Bite 6 on
    jnij103vqi2i.png
  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) I want to cut to the feelingRegistered User regular
    you know what's really unbearable?

    gettin' shot

    I am streamer, destroyer of worlds. [M, Tu, W, F: 2-6 pm EST] and [Saturday: 3-8 pm EST]
    Twitter
    WeaverCaulk Bite 6BahamutZEROOlivawZonugalRhesus PositiveThe Betgirlchrishallett83NartwakTheStigShadowenSixshotStrikerMr FuzzbuttGatsbyAngelinaDarth WaiterlonelyahavaTankHammerToxKadithintropMoth 13ZibblsnrtOghulkFencingsaxBertezBertezCelloMs DappermasterofmetroidgtrmpVoranthtynicJaysonFourDisruptedCapitalistOmnipotentBagelMatevMetzger MeisterRaijin QuickfootArdolStraightziNarbusPsycohed
  • WhippyWhippy Moderator, Admin Emeritus Admin Emeritus
    Zoel wrote: »
    I've never really felt the whole trained to use firearms argument. I mean, anyone can be trained on how to use a gun and shoot a little bit better, but one of my eyes has better acuity than the other and no matter how much I trained I probably wouldn't win any competitions.

    But I mean yeah if you're one of the people who is a certified top 10 worldwide hand gun user who once single handedly saved a baby falling from a third story window while counter assassinating someone trying to assassinate the prime minister of Italy despite the fact that you could only remember how to speak German at the time (because that's what you were discussing the Nobel Literature prize in during your lecture the previous day, where you discussed the horrors and lack of ethics in warfare)

    well. sure. I can give my blessing to the three or so people on earth who never miss the bullseye and can be trusted with Law Enforcement authority.

    You're being a goose, here. Kindly refrain from that.

    And you're not a mod, here. Kindly refrain from that.

    Caulk Bite 6Panda4YouBertezBertez
  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
    Whippy wrote: »
    You're being a goose, here. Kindly refrain from that.

    And you're not a mod, here. Kindly refrain from that.

    Sincerely sorry about that.

    I realized after the fact that I could have noted they were being unclear (to me) in a different fashion. I will actually try to keep that in mind.

    jnij103vqi2i.png
  • ZoelZoel I suppose... I'd put it on Registered User regular
    The intent is nice. I'm pretty terrible at expressing myself or emotions for reasons that aren't interesting, so It's helpful to know when clarification is needed.

    I had some idle wonderings about how this tragedy might have affected peoples perceptions at large, and I was interested to see that use of the term LGBT in google searches is currently the highest per month it has been in the existence of the internet-- and there are still 12 days in June left. I can't really tell if this means anything.

    A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
    However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    Ms Dapper wrote: »


    Just fucking sigh

    Just siiiiiiiiiiiigh

    Did we already post about the Jamaican AG gettin' mad because the US Embassy flying the rainbow flag was 'disrespectful' of Jamaica's anti-sodomy laws?

  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Ms Dapper wrote: »


    Just fucking sigh

    Just siiiiiiiiiiiigh

    "Sign of gay pride determined to be unbearable by assholes using religion as a mask for their bigotry and hate and determined to bring down everyone else with them as they appoint themselves the spokespeople for religious people everywhere."

    NartwakElldren
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    I question the veracity of that complaint

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    Caulk Bite 6
  • TubeTube Administrator, ClubPA admin
    Also "shouldn't have to see gays" is super far from a core Christian belief sorry no dice try again

    Hobnail wrote: »
    This forum has taken everything from me
    TankHammermasterofmetroidNartwaktynicMatevMetzger MeisterCaulk Bite 6ShadowenDoobhBlankzillachrishallett83ElldrenPsycohed
  • PoorochondriacPoorochondriac Ah, man Ah, jeezRegistered User regular
    And lo did Jesus, who is Lord, look out upon his flock and speak: "Gays? Yuck. No thanks. Don't wanna look at 'em."

    TheStigRaijin Quickfoot
  • RankenphileRankenphile Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderator mod
    "If thou shalt love a man as thou would a woman, thou shalt keep that shit behind closed doors, whereupon goodly folk shalt not have to think about how super hot it must be to besmooch among one's kind."

    WhippyRaijin QuickfootShadowenToxchrishallett83cabsy
  • TankHammerTankHammer Atlanta Ghostbuster Atlanta, GARegistered User regular
    Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)

    7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye.

    "... Unless it, like, seriously squicks you out, then go right ahead and be a real asshole about it. That's totally fine. It's all about you, my dude. Other people's concerns ain't your problem. "
    So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    " ... And that one guy stood up and used his semi-automatic stone-chucker with tactical rail and forward grip to just pelt that sinner good and Jesus gave him a double high-five. "

    chrishallett83
  • PinfeldorfPinfeldorf Realtor Santa ClaritaRegistered User regular
    It is pretty amazing how many Christians forget the core tenets of the religion in favor of the ones that let them be high and mighty over those that need our compassion instead of our disdain.

    NartwakTheStigMatevCaulk Bite 6ShadowenDarth Waiterchrishallett83OghulkElldren
  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    and here I thought the guy raised a pride flag after the 'unbearable shooting'

    silly me!

    DisruptedCapitalistCaulk Bite 6
  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
    PSN: JoeUser80 Steam
    Raijin QuickfootSkeithArdolCaulk Bite 6ShadowenToxMetzger MeisterSo It GoesDarth Waiterchrishallett83Turkey
Sign In or Register to comment.