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Draw [game design] into your hand from your graveyard.

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  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    My economic system is not surviving test very well. Blaaah, economic systems are such a pain. Maybe I need to separate out the finances. Very difficult to have both personal-level and domain-level finances at the same time. If you own a domain, you probably don't care about how much lunch costs. Unless maybe if you're far from home...

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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    IanatorEndless_SerpentsWhelkElvenshaegavindelReynolds
  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    Right so! I gave your gal’s game a look and it’s grand! I hope she keeps wanting to make games.



    Having seen Celeste up close as it’s being made I honestly think it’s got legs, and not just because The Zombie Penguin is a pal of mine. Keep it in mind for a future purchase!



    I wish I had the coding skills of Delzhand, because you always make your concepts look professional! I haven’t been involved in it due to life, but I hope it’s going well! I’ll take a look when it’s through.



    For me, I reckon I’ll make the art for a miniature card game ‘Villy’ that I came up with ages ago now I’m getting slightly better at drawing. No time limit on doing that, it’s just as I can. Villy is a game about trying to win a best village competition.

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    @gavindel
    How’s it coming along?

    I’d personally simplify it right down, but I’m intrigued with what you’ve gone for!

  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    My answer actually came from solving a different problem. I was searching for some way to handle spells. In particular, I wanted a "mana source" that would naturally rise and fall without relying on Ki. (It is difficult to balance Ki as both a short-term combat resource and a long term ritual source). After a few iterations, I decided to change Harmony from a point system to a dice size system.

    Both players and the domain have a Harmony die. Smallest is d0 (you done fucked up) and largest is d12 (in tune with the world). To do a ritual, you roll <Tier dice pool> + <Harmony dice>. Somewhere between 1d2 (d0 is automatic failure) and 4d12. Casting the ritual drains your Harmony, and you drop to the next smallest die. Thus, you have an inherently limited mana pool with a max of eight points (die sizes) and an intuitive way to store up power (get a bigger die!)

    Once I had that, I just applied it to money. I added a Standing stat, also d0 to d12, and gave it similar rules for building and spending as Harmony. Your available cash is a standard challenge roll, using <Wealth stat> + <Standing die>. Better social standing explicitly gets you better deals.

    From there Standing broadened out to be a form of social and legal defense. Once we move these actions into challenge rolls, then we can benefit from my existing rules for how to have partial failure, disastrous failure, successes, and extra successes.

    Basically, the answer was to figure out that I could make die size a part of the meta-currency behind my central mechanic and then just apply to additional domains.

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
    IanatorDelzhandElvenshaeWhelk
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    So I had a minor development into the kind of game I'm trying to make. It's always been an objective driven, card-based squad action game. I've gone back and forth on having a map, and I tried a zone system a while back that worked pretty well. It was due for some refinement, and it made me realize what genre I'm trying to emulate from video games: hero shooters. So I started taking a look at map design from the ones I think are the most popular: TF2 and Overwatch. It led to me creating node-based maps for objectives and a couple routes that connect those nodes. I have a couple terribly drawn maps, but it made me realize easier ways to do AOE and LOS. A much bigger part of the game is controlling the routes between nodes now, almost as big as controlling the nodes themselves. Temporary barriers, smoke, shields, turrets and stuff all apply to either routes or nodes. Routes also state whether the nodes that are connected provide LOS, cover, concealment, or are blocked to ranged attacks. I'm debating on how to do control numbers for contested nodes or whether you have to clear the enemy from them via pushes, pulls, etc. Probably some combination of the two.

    The second development is a simplification of the damage system. Attacks deal threat to targets instead of damage. Threat gets wiped at the end of a round. Threat on a target can be exchanged for damage, which does not get wiped at the end of a round. When a target's threat plus damage becomes greater than their defense, they take a wound. The game is divided into two phases, the setup phase and the combat phase. The setup phase has players trade activations, playing effects like smoke bombs, moving characters and attacks that can only apply threat. The combat phase has characters act in speed order, with ties broken by who has least threat, then simultaneous. So the name of the game now is to throw as much threat/tactical prep into the setup phase at the enemy team as you can before you capitalize on it by turning it into damage and wounds in the shootout style combat phase.

    These two minor changes have led to a lot of system-wide stuff that's been easier to throw things at and see if they stick, like variable side objectives, victory points, wounds making a character respawn, all that kind of thing. I hadn't even had healing before, but it's worked its way in now as a very minor thing for a couple characters.

    If you guys have any ideas for this sort of thing, I'd love to hear them!

    Ianator
  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    A general question for the group: what's your tolerance for variation in items?

    To give context: I have a list of ~80 reagents which are used for the crafting system. They are organized by elemental affinity, type and Tier. These are consumed for crafting recipes. Imagine a crafting recipe might say "2 helpings of Tier 3 Air-water leaf, 1 helping of Tier 3 Earth-Fire metal" as the material components.

    This already feels like a lot. I'm not sure how many people will really care. I like it cause I like the flavor of "We need to find some Moontear to imbue my sword", and I have an optional rule to automatically convert gathered resources into generic crystal salts (aka, a simple point currency for crafting).

    So far, so good. I'm okay with a little complexity when I feel it increases the flavor and immersion. My worry, beyond that, is how much granularity each of the 80 items should have. For example, should I give every single item separate factors for inventory space and how to harvest? Or should I smooth it out so that each of the five resource groups all share the same general flow? Or just drop it and let it all be "one Inventory Space (tm) per item"?

    It feels like a conflict between making the 80 items feel unique and the pain-in-the-ass factor of "Okay, this is Adamantium. Is it 3 Inventory per Adamantium or 4? And was this one of the ones with a difficulty bonus? Let me check page 323..."

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    Is crafting a focus of the game or supplementary?

  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    The core game play loop outside of narrative concerns is exploring for resources gathering > gathering reagents > building up your town > building up your gear > exploring for better resources...

    My ideal fantasy is that the RPG be Harvest Moon meets Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
    Whelk
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    My personal tolerance for crafting is that I think unless an item is exceptionally good, it should be assumed that a bit of cash spent in an appropriate location like a city should get you [box of materials for a iron sword]x1. If an item is good, it should require that and a rarer item gated behind an appropriate challenge.

    Exceptionally good items could require multiple rare items, but managing individual brass buttons or yards of veg tanned leather isn't my cup of tea unless it's the core gameplay loop.

  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    Sounds like you'd be better off using the crystal salt conversion since the point of that is to handwave individual resources and just say "sixty fun bucks gets you a sword, last trip got you 25, 35 to go"

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
  • WhelkWhelk Registered User regular
    I think granularity in materials could be done with halfway measures on both. Having gathering/harvesting skills that can tackle different kinds of materials, but they all convert into X elemental currency. So if you come across adamantite, you could gather it to get X precious metals or X fire gems with different skills for both. I think having a cool encyclopedia for that is fun, but unless it serves a fundamental purpose to the game it can require too much bookkeeping.

    That being said, a bingo card for rare materials to craft a sword is cool if you can make it a part of the journey rather than tedious. Like if there were a grid for upgrading your weapons and each player wanted the same materials, it could be cool.

    Elvenshae
  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    Standardizing the game language is always tedious but very important. Reviewing my second draft, I used all the following terms for a player's numeric result from rolling:

    Dice pool / Dice / Pool
    Bonus / Static bonus / Bonus dice / Bonus Die
    Dice size / Dice rank / Die size / Die rank / Die power
    Result / challenge result/ challenge outcome / outcome
    Roll dice / make a challenge roll / challenge for...

    And on and on. Not a huge deal for drafts, but clean-up required. Nobody wants to end up with mishmashes like "an attack is different from a weapon attack is different from an unarmed strike". (Not that something like that would ever make it into publication...)

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
    Endless_Serpents
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    I'm working on another game. It's a "daily challenge" style strategy game that's a mashup of wordle, chess, and rock paper scissors.

    https://delzhand.github.io/tactle/

    It's mostly done, the things that are incomplete are all meta-level like stat tracking and social sharing.

    I do worry that it might be too easy, but I also might be too close to it to be objective.

    Cornucopiist
  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    Delzhand wrote: »
    I'm working on another game. It's a "daily challenge" style strategy game that's a mashup of wordle, chess, and rock paper scissors.

    https://delzhand.github.io/tactle/

    It's mostly done, the things that are incomplete are all meta-level like stat tracking and social sharing.

    I do worry that it might be too easy, but I also might be too close to it to be objective.

    I might be an idiot, but I was surprised when the other side didn't move after the first round. Also took me a game to realize that I should be using the weak hits to spend health and move white into position.

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    No, pretty much everyone I've shown has said the same thing about the white pieces not moving. Maybe I shouldn't present it as a symmetrical game if it really isn't. The only impact the white pieces have is their starting positions and number of hearts.

    As for swapping, it's meant to be a last-ditch effort. It lowers your score by 1, but if you're not going to make it in 6 turns it can be useful. I think the problem here is that victory can be measured two ways - how few turns you can take, or score... And score isn't in the How To.

    I'll think on this. I appreciate the feedback!

    gavindel
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    edited April 6
    Currently working on a Urban fantasy crime game think Arcane and Necromunda having a baby.

    The things I need to fill into that doc are:

    A) Character creation having an ABC priority pick between: Standing (more resources to use), Experience (more skills/competence out of the gate) and Weird (being deep touched, a non human or just more experienced in terms of having more techniques).

    IE Players could be A for Standing, B for Weird and C for experience to have a non human noble whose slumming it/exiled to the under city.

    Or A for experience, B for standing and C for weird to stat out an old man brawler that everyone respects as the mid level enforcer.

    B ) The combat, social and chase systems: Basically when you wanna do an Advanced Interaction rather than 'roll to knock a dude out' everyone gets Form, a mini HP bar based on a stat relevant to the conflict (combat is highest of Physique/Will, Social is Will/Charm and Chase is Wits/Physique). Then based on the form of conflict there's various rules for how you divide up initiative and hits and difficulty. There's also the concept of off balance tokens that make the next roll for someone harder (getting hit in combat makes it harder to reply, blackmail knocks you off balance and so on)

    Importantly once your form is gone you can leave with only the consequences of the action. So if you're in a fight with a cop and your form's gone you get arrested or searched. If you're in a social situation and back down from the meeting it just means you retire from the debate and so on.

    But if you wanna commit you can do so, with further damage going to Strain on your resources that both caps them and is a huge pain to recover from. But hey, risk scandel, debt and death to achieve your goals if you want!

    C) All the techniques/special rule breaks that let people feel like they're making a build. Techniques are basically there so folks who want more crunch in a narrative system. Stuff like being a gossip who subtely manipulates NPC's passions before even meeting them, being a sadist who takes advantage of people's off balance tokens in conflicts or an alchemist who can spend downtime to scrounge materials as an extra resource bar for Cool Potions.

    Albino Bunny on
    MNC DovermrpakuElvenshaeWhelk
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Full-time Voice Actor Kirkland, WARegistered User regular
    Neat. Sounds like you could draw some inspiration from Griftlands if you haven't done so already.

    Need a voice actor? Hire me at bengrayVO.com
    Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Griftlands is something I still need to play more of but also it's on Epic and I never get around to booting it up :P

    Though yeah the resources of wealth, reputation and energy basically encourage you to bounce a little in between different actions to stay safe the same way you wanna mix social and conflict in griftlands even if you're specialized in one.

    MNC Dover
  • DelzhandDelzhand Hard to miss. Registered User regular
    https://delzhand.github.io/tactle/

    Now with an AI opponent and revised scoring. The score is now just how many hearts you have left at the end vs how many you started with. Sometimes it doesn't display at the end and you have to make one more move before it shows up, but that'll get fixed soon.

    IanatorEndless_Serpents
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    Also in terms of dumb techniques:

    Gossiper: Whether it's via news paper, gossip network or Strongly Worded Letters you have a surprising hold on the social current. When you meet an NPC for the first time you may spend 2 energy to describe what facts you espouse the target has internalized. The GM will adjust the Passions for the target to incoporate those facts.

    Cull the Meek (AKA, the cop talent): In brawls you can spend energy at a 1:1 ratio to turn off balance tokens on an enemy into bonus damage.

    The Voice of the Deep (Weird talent, requires being deep touched): When you act in social confrontations you may spend 1 energy to use your Passions as a trait (you may still spend energy to boost your roll with passions as normal). If you do so you fix the difficulty at Tense. People may resent you for this later.

    Daredevil: In a chase situation you may choose to spend 1 energy to take the harm of the chase round regardless of win or loss. In return your side receives one extra success for their tally.

  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    Wow, thread title was two years old. Gonna have a read of your stuff gang!

  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    Yeah, no big updates from me. I'd like to think I've nailed down my full set of core mechanics, mostly revolving around manipulating bonuses and dice pools, and I'm about halfway done converting my v1 classes into v2.

    My game system is currently 110,630 words long....and I still don't have full text for monsters or techniques...

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
  • gavindelgavindel The reason all your software is brokenRegistered User regular
    I think I have enough content to go back to playtest a few rounds with my game group. The last time I ran playtest, I ran head-long into the TLDR problem with my world document. This time, let's see if I can fit everything they need into five pages.



    It's good exercise for a system to condense it to minimal form. I have an open question about how one best presents the rules to an RPG system. As a programmer, my personal documentation for Seln Alora looks a lot like a design spec. "if this, then this. If that, then not that." However, such decision trees in text form can make a reader's head swim.

    I don't know. I can think of a lot of rule books where they outline the rules wrong and not so many where I think it was right...

    I've got a book! Angels, innovations, and the hubris of tiny things: Seraphim
  • Endless_SerpentsEndless_Serpents Registered User regular
    gavindel wrote: »
    I think I have enough content to go back to playtest a few rounds with my game group. The last time I ran playtest, I ran head-long into the TLDR problem with my world document. This time, let's see if I can fit everything they need into five pages.



    It's good exercise for a system to condense it to minimal form. I have an open question about how one best presents the rules to an RPG system. As a programmer, my personal documentation for Seln Alora looks a lot like a design spec. "if this, then this. If that, then not that." However, such decision trees in text form can make a reader's head swim.

    I don't know. I can think of a lot of rule books where they outline the rules wrong and not so many where I think it was right...

    I have to agree, going as minimal as possible, building it back up and doing it again is a great approach to design.



    I don’t have any great updates either, my roleplaying system ‘Wreckage’ works and I’ve run and played in it but it’s still not written up in such a way I could publish it.

    For fun I making a solo/forum game about being the boss of a dungeon. It’s basically A Quiet Year.

    discrider
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