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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] Brexitstential Crisis

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    BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    I hope we've all pointed and laughed at this line from Johnson's Telegraph piece;
    We had one Scotland referendum in 2014, and I do not detect any real appetite to have another one soon

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    I hope we've all pointed and laughed at this line from Johnson's Telegraph piece;
    We had one Scotland referendum in 2014, and I do not detect any real appetite to have another one soon

    ThisIsFine.jpg

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Time for JC's brand new allstar line up!
    BBC News wrote:
    New Labour shadow cabinet team

    New appointments to Jeremy Corbyn's front bench following the wave of resignations over the last 24 hours:

    Shadow foreign secretary - Emily Thornberry

    Shadow health secretary - Diane Abbott

    Shadow education secretary - Pat Glass

    Shadow transport secretary - Andy McDonald

    Shadow defence secretary – Clive Lewis

    Shadow chief secretary to the Treasury – Rebecca Long-Bailey

    Shadow international development secretary – Kate Osamor

    Shadow environment, food and rural affairs aecretary – Rachel Maskell

    Shadow voter engagement and youth affairs – Cat Smith

    Shadow Northern Ireland secretary – Dave Anderson

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Muddypaws wrote: »
    One thin sliver of good to come out of this whole shambles is Johnson's cheeky chappy persona has been exposed as the utter sham it always was.

    That's our next Prime Minister you're talking about.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    They're resigning faster than he can replace them. Junior shadow ministers are leaping out of the burning truck en masse this morning.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    V1m wrote: »
    Actually, my other comfort is that the Leave campaign has chucked Nigel Farage in the bin.

    Farage achieving his life's work and getting a brexit vote, then realising that he's been lied to and will get nothing. It is beyond delicious.

    I don't think UKIP are done. He's out of an MEP job in a couple of years, but I imagine BoJo will stick him in the House of Lords, and if Freedom of Movement isn't abolished (and it won't be), they can continue being the TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK party with no speed-bump in support. Hell, I can see them picking up a lot of disaffected Tory votes.

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    Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    Time for JC's brand new allstar line up!
    BBC News wrote:
    New Labour shadow cabinet team

    New appointments to Jeremy Corbyn's front bench following the wave of resignations over the last 24 hours:

    Shadow foreign secretary - Emily Thornberry

    Shadow health secretary - Diane Abbott

    Shadow education secretary - Pat Glass

    Shadow transport secretary - Andy McDonald

    Shadow defence secretary – Clive Lewis

    Shadow chief secretary to the Treasury – Rebecca Long-Bailey

    Shadow international development secretary – Kate Osamor

    Shadow environment, food and rural affairs aecretary – Rachel Maskell

    Shadow voter engagement and youth affairs – Cat Smith

    Shadow Northern Ireland secretary – Dave Anderson

    Well that's a who's who of inexperienced nobodies. Considering Labour were only last in power 6 years ago, you'd expect far more ministerial experience in a Shadow Cabinet but clearly Corbyn knows what he's doing...

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    V1m wrote: »
    Actually, my other comfort is that the Leave campaign has chucked Nigel Farage in the bin.

    Farage achieving his life's work and getting a brexit vote, then realising that he's been lied to and will get nothing. It is beyond delicious.

    I don't think UKIP are done. He's out of an MEP job in a couple of years, but I imagine BoJo will stick him in the House of Lords, and if Freedom of Movement isn't abolished (and it won't be), they can continue being the TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK party with no speed-bump in support. Hell, I can see them picking up a lot of disaffected Tory votes.

    A UKIP collapse depends on actually going through with withdrawal, because then their reason to exist is gone and their voters go to the other parties for other concerns.

    If we get a snap election, assume UKIP will have at least some representation in the commons that isn't defecting Tories

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Aw, this thread is probably going to be slower now that people have jobs and stuff. For now.

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    Bad-BeatBad-Beat Registered User regular
    Corbyn must realise the longer he drags this out, the more attention they are putting on Labour, rather than the Tories. The narrative needs to be 'Tories in disarray' but the longer Corbyn allows his Shadow Cabinet to crumble around him without stepping down is just one more misstep in a Leadership defined by its missteps.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    Corbyn must realise the longer he drags this out, the more attention they are putting on Labour, rather than the Tories. The narrative needs to be 'Tories in disarray' but the longer Corbyn allows his Shadow Cabinet to crumble around him without stepping down is just one more misstep in a Leadership defined by its missteps.

    But muh mandate

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    eEK!eEK! Registered User regular
    Bad-Beat wrote: »
    Corbyn must realise the longer he drags this out, the more attention they are putting on Labour, rather than the Tories. The narrative needs to be 'Tories in disarray' but the longer Corbyn allows his Shadow Cabinet to crumble around him without stepping down is just one more misstep in a Leadership defined by its missteps.

    I'd say the fact that the press are more interested in an ineffective and unelectable opposition leader instead of the worst prime minister since Chamberlain tells you everything you need to know about Britain's press, which also explains why concepts like effectiveness and electability that should be communicated by the press have no effect on Corbyn's supporters.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    The press are reporting what's actually happening. Labour are enthusiastically leaping from a building they think is on fire. Cameron is done, and there's nothing to say except pick over his career and giggle, mostly. They could kick him while he's down some more, I guess, but that isn't what's happening right now. I'm sure Osborne's speech this morning will get a lot of attention, the gist of which is hmm yeah this is bad but I think we'll be OK, mostly. Next guy in my job is for some interesting times, though.

    The press have been reporting on the Tory leadership battle that is going to kick off soon, but since all the main runners spent the weekend sitting in a locked room with the music on very loud, apparently unaware that anything was happening in the outside world there's been little to report.

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    BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    The press would also kindly like you to be distracted from the role they played in this disaster.

    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    TOP GEAR INFIGHTING apparently leads on two tabloids this morning. Yes, this is the most important thing to talk about.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Bethryn wrote: »
    The press would also kindly like you to be distracted from the role they played in this disaster.

    How do you hold their feet against the fire though? Going to the papers seems ineffective.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Bethryn wrote: »
    The press would also kindly like you to be distracted from the role they played in this disaster.

    How do you hold their feet against the fire though? Going to the papers seems ineffective.

    The Leveson Inquiry did an excellent job of highlighting their mendacity and fear-mongering, but no one wants to kick off the second part of it, so we are where we are. The only way to put an end to tabloid bias and lies is not to buy them. Most papers have lost around a quarter to a third of their readership in the last five years, so maybe you just have to wait until their readership dies out entirely.

    And then everything will be fine because people will get all their news from Facebook, which is 100% accurate.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    edited June 2016
    With the Record now openly supporting Sturgeon’s preparations for a second referendum, its poll also found that more SNP supporters voted leave than other parties: 29% of SNP voters backed Brexit, compared to 27% of Scottish Tories, and 17% Labour and 16% Lib Dem voter.

    Is there a thread of Euroscepticism running through the SNP base, or was that third trying to trigger a second referendum by voting for the worst possible option?

    I mean, tiny numbers , but still kinda funny.

    Bogart on
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    Dis'Dis' Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    With the Record now openly supporting Sturgeon’s preparations for a second referendum, its poll also found that more SNP supporters voted leave than other parties: 29% of SNP voters backed Brexit, compared to 27% of Scottish Tories, and 17% Labour and 16% Lib Dem voter.

    Is there a thread of Euroscepticism running through the SNP base, or was that third trying to trigger a second referendum by voting for the worst possible option?

    I mean, tiny numbers , but still kinda funny.

    Some from column A, some from column B I'd expect. I know some SNP supporters in the north east who don't want Brussels, London, or Edinburgh telling them what to do.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    The second point I want to make, because I’ve seen a lot of confusion over the weekend about the status of people living in this country; it’s absolutely clear that people from other European Union countries who are living here have their rights protected. All that people want to see is a system that’s fair, impartial and humane to all people coming from around the world. And also, obviously people from the UK living abroad, living in the rest of the EU, will also have their rights completely protected. I just worry there’s been a certain amount of confusion in the media over the last 24 hours.

    Goodness me, wherever could that confusion have come from? Boris doesn't know. He's flummoxed, but eager to set the record straight.

    I guess this sort of thing works if you decide to believe entirely the most recent thing he's said, and don't ever trouble yourself to look back at anything he's said in the past.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Labour resignations are still going on. Some for jobs I didn't know existed. A third of cabinet jobs are now held by people who nominated Corbyn for Leader.

    If he doesn't resign, or get beaten in a leadership election, Labour are basically done. The unions have said they'll work to deselect rebellious MPs, and replace them with what I guess will be Corbyn supporters who are avidly for party purity and aren't fussed with that messy business of actually governing and winning general elections.

    Corbyn now has a foreign secretary, chancellor and defence secretary who want shot of Trident.

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    eEK!eEK! Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    With the Record now openly supporting Sturgeon’s preparations for a second referendum, its poll also found that more SNP supporters voted leave than other parties: 29% of SNP voters backed Brexit, compared to 27% of Scottish Tories, and 17% Labour and 16% Lib Dem voter.

    Is there a thread of Euroscepticism running through the SNP base, or was that third trying to trigger a second referendum by voting for the worst possible option?

    I mean, tiny numbers , but still kinda funny.

    I'd assume its floating voters that believe the SNP are the best party (certainly seemed that some of the SNP's success is based on having solid leadership in the face of disintegrating opposition) but aren't necessarily sold on the whole package and probably a some lower case n nationalists.

    We're at a point now where I would vote for the SNP in York, without any irony, cos its that or hope the Green party can build an electable government from one MP and a bunch of councillors.

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    WearingglassesWearingglasses Of the friendly neighborhood variety Registered User regular
    I just noticed that you guys have a party called the UK Independence Party, or UKIP for short. The main guys behind Brexit.

    And, they have an "I'm Voting UKIP" poster, with the UKIP prominently displayed. Alright.

    It's just that, when set horizontally aside with each other over and over again, it becomes our language's equivalent of "I'm Voting USSYP".

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    CroakerBCCroakerBC TorontoRegistered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Labour resignations are still going on. Some for jobs I didn't know existed. A third of cabinet jobs are now held by people who nominated Corbyn for Leader.

    If he doesn't resign, or get beaten in a leadership election, Labour are basically done. The unions have said they'll work to deselect rebellious MPs, and replace them with what I guess will be Corbyn supporters who are avidly for party purity and aren't fussed with that messy business of actually governing and winning general elections.

    Corbyn now has a foreign secretary, chancellor and defence secretary who want shot of Trident.

    Whilst that last part is a perfectly reasonable point of view, I doubt it's one that is going to win a lot of wavering voters in a snap election, especially if the papers start to bang the drum again.

    As an aside: What on earth will they discuss once they don't have the EU to yell at every day?

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Shadow Welsh secretary demanding Corbyn resign

    Shadow Welsh Secretary Nia Griffith is meeting Jeremy Corbyn right now to ask him to step down as Labour leader. If he refuses, then Ms Griffith is expected to resign from the shadow cabinet.

    The Llanelli MP has said she cannot serve under a leader she does not have confidence in.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    The UK is unlikely to secure full access to the EU single market unless it continues to allow free movement of labour, according to Ireland's finance minister.

    "From the precedent it doesn't look as if that option is open, but I can see why he is saying it even though the positions are contradictory, that's what he campaigned on," Michael Noonan, above right, told reporters in Dublin earlier this morning.

    "The precedent in Norway was that when they got access to the full market, they had to pay the levies that countries pay to the European Union and as well as that they had to give free labour market access."

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    eEK!eEK! Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    The press are reporting what's actually happening. Labour are enthusiastically leaping from a building they think is on fire. Cameron is done, and there's nothing to say except pick over his career and giggle, mostly. They could kick him while he's down some more, I guess, but that isn't what's happening right now. I'm sure Osborne's speech this morning will get a lot of attention, the gist of which is hmm yeah this is bad but I think we'll be OK, mostly. Next guy in my job is for some interesting times, though.

    The press have been reporting on the Tory leadership battle that is going to kick off soon, but since all the main runners spent the weekend sitting in a locked room with the music on very loud, apparently unaware that anything was happening in the outside world there's been little to report.

    The trouble with reporting of Corbyn is that the real criticism is lost in the nit picking on signing anthems, wearing a cheap suit, etc, in just the same way that Bush was able to avoid criticism by reading books upside down or flubbing aphorisms.

    Basically the Entertainment News philosophy has sold people on the idea that they can believe whatever they want, no matter the facts. I'm hoping this will prove to them, that just because you can argue that grass isn't green to people with colour blindness doesn't mean it isn't green.

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    BethrynBethryn Unhappiness is Mandatory Registered User regular
    9uVMpb8.jpg

    ...and of course, as always, Kill Hitler.
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    UKIP can probably transition seamlessly into a SEND THEM BACK party, maintaining all the while that they're for immigration, just of 'the right sort of people'. Racists have been given the sort of freedom of expression that they've not had in years. And since the people who promised to do something about immigration are now saying they never said that you can dump a healthy amount of resentment and anger into the mix with that newfound confidence.

    I dunno what the Labour result is going to be. The unions are backing Corbyn for now, so maybe he stays, no one challenges him officially for the leadership, and he limps on. Later, after a general election he loses, he is gently but firmly put down, while we gird ourselves for another five years of Tory rule.

    People are mad at guys like Blair for being all about power, and fair enough. But Corbyn's apparent lack of concern with actually winning a general election isn't a refreshing change, it's an abdication of responsibility for winning power and then using it, an unforgivable fault in a potential PM.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Tom Watson has told his party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, that he has lost his authority in the parliamentary Labour party and that if there was a leadership election, then members would be voting with that knowledge.

    In critical talks at 9am this morning, the deputy leader set out how destabilising a wave of shadow cabinet and ministerial resignations had been for the party, but fell short of calling on Corbyn to resign.

    Watson seems to be hedging his bets to an unbelievable degree here. I'm not saying you should resign, just that no one likes you except your bezzie mates, just mentioning it, you know, just highlighting it for you.

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    klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Tom Watson has told his party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, that he has lost his authority in the parliamentary Labour party and that if there was a leadership election, then members would be voting with that knowledge.

    In critical talks at 9am this morning, the deputy leader set out how destabilising a wave of shadow cabinet and ministerial resignations had been for the party, but fell short of calling on Corbyn to resign.

    Watson seems to be hedging his bets to an unbelievable degree here. I'm not saying you should resign, just that no one likes you except your bezzie mates, just mentioning it, you know, just highlighting it for you.

    Does he sound anything like Professor Farnsworth? "I'm not saying you should resign. But I'm certainly thinking it loudly."

    Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    Boris said this morning that the markets are stable, don't panic. About an hour later Barclays and RBS have had trading in their shares suspended because they're in freefall. Next PM there.

    I wonder if David Milliband is casually Googling 'flights to UK' and arranging for an impressive haircut, you know, just in case.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Bogart wrote: »
    Tom Watson has told his party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, that he has lost his authority in the parliamentary Labour party and that if there was a leadership election, then members would be voting with that knowledge.

    In critical talks at 9am this morning, the deputy leader set out how destabilising a wave of shadow cabinet and ministerial resignations had been for the party, but fell short of calling on Corbyn to resign.

    Watson seems to be hedging his bets to an unbelievable degree here. I'm not saying you should resign, just that no one likes you except your bezzie mates, just mentioning it, you know, just highlighting it for you.

    Not any more
    Tom Watson has told Jeremy Corbyn to resign. He told him he has "no authority with the PLP".

    Sometimes when it walks like a duck...

    RMS Oceanic on
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    Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie Registered User regular
    Politico have a pretty good article breaking down the dynamics of the EU's response to the referendum result, because as you can imagine in an organisation that size with politicians and administrators from 27 other countries, opinions on how to handle it vary.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    So it feels like there are three main factions in Labour: The majority of the PLP and those who voted for them, the Class of 2015 who voted for Corbyn, and the Unions. I think it's the Class of '15 that will ultimately decide this, and that depends on how they feel about Europe.

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    BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator Mod Emeritus
    What's that Watson quote from? The Guardian blog isstill saying he didn't push for a resignation.

This discussion has been closed.