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[BREXIT] Farewell Europe, and thanks for all the Fish stocks

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Is Corbyn the Bernie Sanders of Labour?

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    Brovid HasselsmofBrovid Hasselsmof [Growling historic on the fury road] Registered User regular
    Was bemoaning the state of things to two of my colleagues earlier. Saying how I'd hate to go home to a country where "nobody has any money, and it's full of racists."

    Being South African, they just laughed.

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    OatsOats Registered User regular
    I don't want to get too Canadian in here but... our Tories and the NDP both came out in favour of a niqab ban, and it cost them both dearly.

    But it was terrifying, seeing the nation I love and live in descend into racism and barbarism. People were emboldened by politicians popularising their prejudices.

    I sincerely hope that the UK can weather this, and as rapidly as we managed to. I could theoretically acquire a UK passport, and that used to be my escape plan if Canada went to shit.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I don't know much about him, but refusing to step aside when his entire team and 80% of his party's MPs ask him to suggests he's putting his own ego and ambition ahead of the party, which is not a good look. I'm also concerned by the way that one MP felt she needed to justify her resignation in the face of threats and accusations from Corbyn supporters.

    Shades of Bernie Sanders and his supporters' less admirable qualities.

    There is a distinct conflict between the Labour membership and Labour MPs. Corbyn had vast support but not amongst sitting MPs, so he probably feels like he's got a party mandate.

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    JarsJars Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Is Corbyn the Bernie Sanders of Labour?

    sounds more like the jimmy carter of labor

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    HermanoHermano Registered User regular
    The problem for Corbyn is that just listening to these MPs means he's then ignoring the massive numbers of Labour members who elected him in a landslide victory

    You can lay plenty of blame for this shitshow at the feet of the MPs and parts of the media who've undermined him from day one, they've given him an impossible job and he's failing at it spectacularly


    PSN- AHermano
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    KarlKarl Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I don't know much about him, but refusing to step aside when his entire team and 80% of his party's MPs ask him to suggests he's putting his own ego and ambition ahead of the party, which is not a good look. I'm also concerned by the way that one MP felt she needed to justify her resignation in the face of threats and accusations from Corbyn supporters.

    Shades of Bernie Sanders and his supporters' less admirable qualities.

    There is a distinct conflict between the Labour membership and Labour MPs. Corbyn had vast support but not amongst sitting MPs, so he probably feels like he's got a party mandate.

    The Labour membership will not win a General election

    it will be MP's in marginal seats getting the people who live there to vote labour.

    Corbyn is simply too left wing to win an election.

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    Butler For Life #1Butler For Life #1 Twinning is WinningRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I object to the idea that he's a good man.

    He insisted that his party had no anti-semitism problem as members spouted one anti-Semitic statement after another, with one (Ken Livingstone) even going so far as to claim that Jews wouldn't vote for Labour because they were too wealthy and self centered. The same guy also called a Jewish reporter a "concentration camp guard".

    Corbyn also donated to a Holocaust denier and supported a man who claims 9/11 was actually a secret Jewish plot

    He is neither good nor decent.

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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    I'd be willing to enter a fake marriage if anyone wants an Austrian passport

    I had a flash of inspiration yesterday, that maybe having an Austrian grandparent meant I could claim dual citizenship. Turns out Austria isn't big on that. So yes please.

    Okay, when push comes to shove!

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    ShenShen Registered User regular
    I wish Corbyn had done more to galvanise the youth vote that propelled him to victory for Remain. 43% turn out for 18-24s is super bad. I have no strong feelings about the man, but he seems bad at his job.

    3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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    HermanoHermano Registered User regular
    Bad at his job yet Labour were consistently winning by-elections and gaining ground on the Tories that had been lost under the previous non-entity leaders


    PSN- AHermano
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I don't know much about him, but refusing to step aside when his entire team and 80% of his party's MPs ask him to suggests he's putting his own ego and ambition ahead of the party, which is not a good look. I'm also concerned by the way that one MP felt she needed to justify her resignation in the face of threats and accusations from Corbyn supporters.

    Shades of Bernie Sanders and his supporters' less admirable qualities.

    The PLP are putting their own wishes and ambitions above the democratic decision of the rest of the party. Fuck em.

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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Tube wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I don't know much about him, but refusing to step aside when his entire team and 80% of his party's MPs ask him to suggests he's putting his own ego and ambition ahead of the party, which is not a good look. I'm also concerned by the way that one MP felt she needed to justify her resignation in the face of threats and accusations from Corbyn supporters.

    Shades of Bernie Sanders and his supporters' less admirable qualities.

    The PLP are putting their own wishes and ambitions above the democratic decision of the rest of the party. Fuck em.

    Semi-cross-posting from D&D's thread: This piece is obviously heavily slanted towards Corbyn, but it seems to have at least a few convincing examples that Labour's role in Brexit, and their disarray post 2015 general election, are the result of much deeper issues beyond Corbyn parachuting in and proceeding to mumble about. I'm thinking in particular John Mann's statement, and rationale, of voting leave, and I take it he is one of the more "pragmatic" Labour members.
    Hermano wrote: »
    Bad at his job yet Labour were consistently winning by-elections and gaining ground on the Tories that had been lost under the previous non-entity leaders

    Isn't this debatable though? From what I recall (granted I'm American so I only casually follow this stuff) the mayoral election was Labour's big win for local elections recently, and I recall Sadiq Kahn keeping campaigning with Corbyn to an absolute minimum. Also in Scotland they're not even the official opposition, and that country used to be a Labour bulwark. Granted I don't put Corbyn as the sole fault for Labour's underperforming in Scotland.

    I do agree that his lackluster leadership is at least partially a result of "pragmatic" MP's basically having it out for him since day one of his leadership.

    CptKemzik on
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    ShenShen Registered User regular
    By non-entities plural, are we including Gordon Brown? Bit strong. On what basis are we attributing the by-election wins to him? At a glance it seems to mostly be like for like replacements. Gaining ground where? (Not being combatative, curious.)

    3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    So who votes for the party leadership? Anyone registered as Labour?

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I object to the idea that he's a good man.

    He insisted that his party had no anti-semitism problem as members spouted one anti-Semitic statement after another, with one (Ken Livingstone) even going so far as to claim that Jews wouldn't vote for Labour because they were too wealthy and self centered. The same guy also called a Jewish reporter a "concentration camp guard".

    Corbyn also donated to a Holocaust denier and supported a man who claims 9/11 was actually a secret Jewish plot

    He is neither good nor decent.

    He shouldn't have done that and he was wrong to do so. Ken Livingstone is an embarrassment to the party and needs to be pushed out. It's an example of his poor leadership, for sure.

    But Corbyn wants to support the poorest and most vulnerable members of society and has more compassion for them than anyone else I can care to think of. He's been a tireless and dedicated public servant for decades, and he himself is no anti-Semite I am 100% sure of that. I understand you don't like him and that's fine, but I admire him a lot and I wish he was a better leader and more electable as I think he wants to do good things for the people of the country and world.

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    Butler For Life #1Butler For Life #1 Twinning is WinningRegistered User regular
    I'm sure he does many good things and that he is not a knowing anti-Semite

    But I strongly object to the idea that we should ignore antisemitism in otherwise good people. It normalizes it, makes it seem palatable. That's how you get stuff like the Oberlin SJP chapter sabotaging a campus meeting on anti-semitism-because people believe that it's okay to target Jews as long as you're morally upright otherwise. That bigotry towards Jews doesn't really count.

    Corbyn allowed anti-Semitism to flourish in his party. He publically praised a man who claims that Jewish people harvest and consume the blood of Christian children.

    I refuse to stand by as people attempt to explain away hatred of Jews as "not really bigotry" or "not actually anti-Semitism".

    I am far more afraid of otherwise good people who have internalized dislike of Jews than I am of neo-Nazis.

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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I object to the idea that he's a good man.

    He insisted that his party had no anti-semitism problem as members spouted one anti-Semitic statement after another, with one (Ken Livingstone) even going so far as to claim that Jews wouldn't vote for Labour because they were too wealthy and self centered. The same guy also called a Jewish reporter a "concentration camp guard".

    Corbyn also donated to a Holocaust denier and supported a man who claims 9/11 was actually a secret Jewish plot

    He is neither good nor decent.

    The anti-semitism stuff I absolutely agree is an unequivocal mark against his leadership (and one I noticed the hard-left publication I follow regularly was conspicuously silent about). Also RE voting on Syrian intervention the whole "it will be a free vote for my party members, but if they don't vote like I do they'll be punished" kerfluffle.

    The Brexit outrage and the whole "we need to be electable!!1!" handwringing I find thoroughly unconvincing to lay at the feet of Corbyn tho - what polling I've glanced at on Labour voters (and MPs!) voting for Brexit would have likely happened regardless of his presence as party leader. Meanwhile the "electability" line is laughable IMO; after losing the 2015 general election due to hedging their bets policy/ideology-wise, the leadership candidates were basically varying degrees of empty suits. The runner-up empty suit - Andy Burnham - is publicly standing behind Corbyn to continue his leadership role.

    CptKemzik on
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    HermanoHermano Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Shen wrote: »
    By non-entities plural, are we including Gordon Brown? Bit strong. On what basis are we attributing the by-election wins to him? At a glance it seems to mostly be like for like replacements. Gaining ground where? (Not being combatative, curious.)



    They're not just winning their votes are going up, as well as winning mayoral elections, Welsh assembly...but hey maybe none of this is down to Corbyn, who knows. It's just odd how quickly people are putting all the failings at his feet yet none of the success. Imagine if the PLP had actually got behind him though, had actually tried to win a GE on a socialist platform, or provided a strong united opposition whilst the government tore the country apart, ah well

    Hermano on

    PSN- AHermano
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    tzeentchlingtzeentchling Doctor of Rocks OaklandRegistered User regular
    Is Nigel Farage really just as horrible a person as he seems to make himself out to be? Or is that just weird british politics style talking?

    "You lousy lot have never done a day of work in your life and you're all horrible people. Now let's be sensible grown-ups and give Britain everything they ask for in trade deals."

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    Jeremy Corbyn is a good and decent man who should never had been leader of the party because he's not good at leadership.

    I don't know much about him, but refusing to step aside when his entire team and 80% of his party's MPs ask him to suggests he's putting his own ego and ambition ahead of the party, which is not a good look. I'm also concerned by the way that one MP felt she needed to justify her resignation in the face of threats and accusations from Corbyn supporters.

    Shades of Bernie Sanders and his supporters' less admirable qualities.

    The PLP are putting their own wishes and ambitions above the democratic decision of the rest of the party. Fuck em.

    There's something of clashing mandates going on: You have those who voted directly for Corbyn, but there's also the many times more people who voted for the PLP. There's a disconnect on that front, and I'll be honest that I don't know how you reconcile them.

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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    Is Nigel Farage really just as horrible a person as he seems to make himself out to be? Or is that just weird british politics style talking?

    "You lousy lot have never done a day of work in your life and you're all horrible people. Now let's be sensible grown-ups and give Britain everything they ask for in trade deals."

    No he really is. He sells himself as this anti-establishment table-flipping average blokesman of the people down the pub with a cig and a pint, when he's just not at all and yet for some reason people seem to buy this bullshit facade. He talks like that because he's a posturing racist bully who feels like the teacher just told him they're going to look the other way for a few minutes.

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    GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    Hermano wrote: »
    Shen wrote: »
    By non-entities plural, are we including Gordon Brown? Bit strong. On what basis are we attributing the by-election wins to him? At a glance it seems to mostly be like for like replacements. Gaining ground where? (Not being combatative, curious.)



    They're not just winning their votes are going up, as well as winning mayoral elections, Welsh assembly...but hey maybe none of this is down to Corbyn, who knows. Imagine if the PLP had actually got behind him though, had actually tried to win a GE on a socialist platform

    The PLP believe that a socialist platform would be a disaster - There's a clear disagreement there that can only be solved at the Ballot Box. If Corbyn wins then he is vindicated, his critics are shattered and we're going in a new political direction. If Corbyn stumbles and the results are messy he doesn't have much he can blame them on - The Tory party is giving him plenty of opportunity to hit them hard.

    If he loses as badly as the PLP think he'll lose... could mean a rise of UKIP in the northern constituencies and the end of the Labour party as a political force. That'd be disastrous in the long term. The Labour brand is anti-tory. It has put all its efforts, all its vitriol and all its soul into damaging the tories as much as possible and it's been rewarded with a number of places that it can rely on to never be blue. There's a real fear in the PLP that this anti blue sentiment will do nothing against UKIP (It did absolutely nothing to slow the SNP who were just able to co-opt it and do it better) and they'll lose enough of their working class vote to sink the party.

    The PLP has staked their careers on it. Corbyn has staked the future of the party on it. One of them needs to be vindicated for this to end and there's no sign of a general election in site. The tories are happy to let this drag on as long as possible.

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    CptKemzikCptKemzik Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Hermano wrote: »
    Imagine if the PLP had actually got behind him though, had actually tried to win a GE on a socialist platform, or provided a strong united opposition whilst the government tore the country apart, ah well

    I agree this is def what the Labour party needs to be doing, because they certainly weren't winning trying to continue mealy-mouthed centrist policies, I just don't think Corbyn is really the guy who could execute this vision from the captain's chair, much as I don't think Sanders is really the guy to personally lead a "political revolution" in the Democratic party. I consider them both to be catalysts - reintroduce unapologetic leftish policies and show that people out there want them - who would then pass the leadership torches to a younger generation of pols who are more capable of seeing them through in electoral terms.

    Ideally Corbyn/the party would have had time to sort through all this for 2020, but then Brexit had to happen thanks to the Tories...
    darleysam wrote: »
    No he really is. He sells himself as this anti-establishment table-flipping average blokesman of the people down the pub with a cig and a pint, when he's just not at all and yet for some reason people seem to buy this bullshit facade. He talks like that because he's a posturing racist bully who feels like the teacher just told him they're going to look the other way for a few minutes.

    People have been making the BoJo/Trump comparison cause lol old white men with bad blond hair, but Farage is truly the UK's Trump persona.

    CptKemzik on
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    Oh another fun fact, the UK is due to take over presidency of the EU next year.

    Take a bow indeed, asshats.

    forumsig.png
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    tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    darleysam wrote: »
    Oh another fun fact, the UK is due to take over presidency of the EU next year.

    Take a bow indeed, asshats.

    oh my god

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    GumpyGumpy There is always a greater powerRegistered User regular
    edited June 2016
    darleysam wrote: »
    Oh another fun fact, the UK is due to take over presidency of the EU next year.

    Take a bow indeed, asshats.

    Do we still take it?

    Like - That's within the two year period

    Gumpy on
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    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Is Nigel Farage really just as horrible a person as he seems to make himself out to be? Or is that just weird british politics style talking?

    "You lousy lot have never done a day of work in your life and you're all horrible people. Now let's be sensible grown-ups and give Britain everything they ask for in trade deals."

    He's a throwback scumbag relic.

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    NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    There's only so much fish you can take from the water before you start running out of fish (and were probably taking too much anyway).
    How don't people get this?
    Want bigger catch limits? get rid of other fishers.

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    HermanoHermano Registered User regular
    Gumpy wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Oh another fun fact, the UK is due to take over presidency of the EU next year.
    Take a bow indeed, asshats.

    Do we still take it?

    Like - That's within the two year period

    No one of the points they brought up today was changing the order of presidency


    PSN- AHermano
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    honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Gumpy wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Oh another fun fact, the UK is due to take over presidency of the EU next year.

    Take a bow indeed, asshats.

    Do we still take it?

    Like - That's within the two year period

    Considering that british officials are already getting out of some positions in Brussels, probably not.

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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    edited June 2016
    Hermano wrote: »
    Gumpy wrote: »
    darleysam wrote: »
    Oh another fun fact, the UK is due to take over presidency of the EU next year.
    Take a bow indeed, asshats.

    Do we still take it?

    Like - That's within the two year period

    No one of the points they brought up today was changing the order of presidency

    Yeah it sounds like we still do for now, but boy is that going to be an awkward dinner conversation.

    edit: or not, since I misread what you wrote and these contradict each other, so yeah you're probably right. Good job us.

    darleysam on
    forumsig.png
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    HermanoHermano Registered User regular
    edited June 2016
    point 14

    CmCUKOYWIAAASbA.jpg

    put the rest in a spoiler, if anyone's interested
    CmCT_ngWEAA5nB7.jpg


    Hermano on

    PSN- AHermano
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    darleysamdarleysam On my way to UKRegistered User regular
    Yeah the thing I read was just some news post from 12 hours ago saying we were 'still due', so that there looks like they've decided that no, we're absolutely not due a go at the tiller of a ship we're trying to run onto the rocks.

    forumsig.png
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    SomestickguySomestickguy Registered User regular
    I didn't want to leave Australia as it was

    Now I can't wait to finish up my studies and wash my hands of the UK

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Why do older people hate the EU so much, or is it just immigration?

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    tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Why do older people hate the EU so much, or is it just immigration?

    They're old enough to remember the 100 years war.

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    CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I've never been more angry at old people than I have this year.

    Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
    On my sleeve, let the runway start
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    StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Corbyn always looks like he's had it and is seconds from murdering someone

    YL9WnCY.png
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    JunpeiJunpei Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Why do older people hate the EU so much, or is it just immigration?

    Immigration is part of it, sure. Fervent nationalism is pretty much part of the dying breed here in the UK, almost entirely relegated to football for the major of the age ranges and almost entirely relegated to 45+ for nearly any other subject. It's similar to the US in this regard because they lived through a 'Golden Era' of economic prosperity and since the UK joined the EU in the early 70s it has been used as a scapegoat for nearly every issue you can imagine which has easily bred an older populace who think those poncy cheese eaters in Brussels are taking away from Great Britain's Greatness.

    This referendum was not the older generations to win, it was the younger generation and not enough 18-30 year old thought that their vote mattered to take part.

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