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[D&D 5E] For the first time in human history, an edition that's not about combat.

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Posts

  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited July 11
    Sleep wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    Or be a Lore Master Wizard and just pick your saves for every spell. I think it might be a little unbalanced...

    I think I'd be less disgusted at the inherent absurdity of the lore master wizard's power set if it had been a sorcerer archetype instead, since wizards are supposed to be the refined masters of ritualized casting while Sorcerers are supposed to wield it as a primal force it would make more sense for them to have it due to it's mutagenic properties.

    I have someone playing a lore master now.

    Only reason I gave it to the player is that i expect them to just forget they can do that for a long time because they don't normally play casters and will just be working on getting spells going for a while.

    One of the complaints I read about it is that it steps on the sorcerer's toes of "flexibility". I'm not sure I get that argument. I like the idea of giving sorcerers metamagic, but they limit it pretty severely. You only get two choices to start, and two more by level 17. Going through them one by one:

    Careful Spell-Not quite as good as Evocation wizard (they still take half damage, though you can use it on other than evocation spells). Decent if you have melee friends and love Fireball
    Distant Spell-Most spells have a pretty decent range, and doubling it isn't usually game-changing
    Empowered Spell-Rerolling is nice, but again not game-changing. Not nearly as good as the old Maximize Spell
    Extended Spell-Most spells last a minute and have Concentration. It also caps at 24 hours. There must be some good options?
    Heightened Spell-Pricey, but extremely nice for your save or suck spells
    Quickened Spell-You can't cast two spells with this. Spell+cantrip is a nice damage dump, but nothing amazing
    Subtle Spell-Seems extremely situational
    Twinned Spell-Very nice, I like this one a great deal for single target status effects or powerful single target buffs.

    So at 3rd level I'm probably going Twinned Spell and one of Heightened/Careful/Empowered?

    But Wizards have more actual flexibility, since they can potentially learn every Wizard spell, and their daily spell list ends up at 25 vs the Sorcerer's 15, AND their spell list is much bigger. Even their short rest recovery is better and comes way earlier. Sorcerers were one of my favorite concepts before, but they way they work in 5e makes me never want to play one versus a Wizard.

    captaink on
    sig.gifSteam | D3: captaink#1674 | 3DS: 2466-1914-7679
  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    Or be a Lore Master Wizard and just pick your saves for every spell. I think it might be a little unbalanced...

    I think I'd be less disgusted at the inherent absurdity of the lore master wizard's power set if it had been a sorcerer archetype instead, since wizards are supposed to be the refined masters of ritualized casting while Sorcerers are supposed to wield it as a primal force it would make more sense for them to have it due to it's mutagenic properties.

    I have someone playing a lore master now.

    Only reason I gave it to the player is that i expect them to just forget they can do that for a long time because they don't normally play casters and will just be working on getting spells going for a while.

    One of the complaints I read about it is that it steps on the sorcerer's toes of "flexibility". I'm not sure I get that argument. I like the idea of giving sorcerers metamagic, but they limit it pretty severely. You only get two choices to start, and two more by level 17. Going through them one by one:

    Careful Spell-Same as Evocation wizard. Decent if you have melee friends and love Fireball
    Distant Spell-Most spells have a pretty decent range, and doubling it isn't usually game-changing
    Empowered Spell-Rerolling is nice, but again not game-changing. Not nearly as good as the old Maximize Spell
    Extended Spell-Most spells last a minute and have Concentration. It also caps at 24 hours. There must be some good options?
    Heightened Spell-Pricey, but extremely nice for your save or suck spells
    Quickened Spell-You can't cast two spells with this. Spell+cantrip is a nice damage dump, but nothing amazing
    Subtle Spell-Seems extremely situational
    Twinned Spell-Very nice, I like this one a great deal for single target status effects or powerful single target buffs.

    So at 3rd level I'm probably going Twinned Spell and one of Heightened/Careful/Empowered?

    But Wizards have more actual flexibility, since they can potentially learn every Wizard spell, and their daily spell list ends up at 25 vs the Sorcerer's 15, AND their spell list is much bigger. Even their short rest recovery is better and comes way earlier. Sorcerers were one of my favorite concepts before, but they way they work in 5e makes me never want to play one versus a Wizard.

    Yeah on sorc i almost never used the metamagic, I'd always buy spells i think

  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Burning your sorcery points to quicken Eldritch Blasts at-will is pretty good value. 4d10+16 damage per turn at level 5, 6d10+30 by level 11. It's comparable in output to buying Scorching Rays but it costs 2 points instead of 3, and the warlock slots give you a free source of points on a short-rest timer.

    There isn't really much else on that list (including buying spells) that's going to consistently outperform "you get two actions per turn now" (although Twinning Haste is pretty good if you've got good targets for it)

  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited July 11
    Twinned and Quickened seem like the obvious best choices to me, I wish there were more "real" options. Twinned Haste is indeed a thing of beauty. Eldritch Blast shenanigans aside, Quickened is also pretty good when you really need to Disengage to not get murdered, but you still want to do something with your turn. Or if you have some other interesting thing to do with your action, like interact with the environment.

    Fry on
    Einzel
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    Or be a Lore Master Wizard and just pick your saves for every spell. I think it might be a little unbalanced...

    I think I'd be less disgusted at the inherent absurdity of the lore master wizard's power set if it had been a sorcerer archetype instead, since wizards are supposed to be the refined masters of ritualized casting while Sorcerers are supposed to wield it as a primal force it would make more sense for them to have it due to it's mutagenic properties.

    I have someone playing a lore master now.

    Only reason I gave it to the player is that i expect them to just forget they can do that for a long time because they don't normally play casters and will just be working on getting spells going for a while.

    One of the complaints I read about it is that it steps on the sorcerer's toes of "flexibility". I'm not sure I get that argument. I like the idea of giving sorcerers metamagic, but they limit it pretty severely. You only get two choices to start, and two more by level 17. Going through them one by one:

    Careful Spell-Not quite as good as Evocation wizard (they still take half damage, though you can use it on other than evocation spells). Decent if you have melee friends and love Fireball
    Distant Spell-Most spells have a pretty decent range, and doubling it isn't usually game-changing
    Empowered Spell-Rerolling is nice, but again not game-changing. Not nearly as good as the old Maximize Spell
    Extended Spell-Most spells last a minute and have Concentration. It also caps at 24 hours. There must be some good options?
    Heightened Spell-Pricey, but extremely nice for your save or suck spells
    Quickened Spell-You can't cast two spells with this. Spell+cantrip is a nice damage dump, but nothing amazing
    Subtle Spell-Seems extremely situational
    Twinned Spell-Very nice, I like this one a great deal for single target status effects or powerful single target buffs.

    So at 3rd level I'm probably going Twinned Spell and one of Heightened/Careful/Empowered?

    But Wizards have more actual flexibility, since they can potentially learn every Wizard spell, and their daily spell list ends up at 25 vs the Sorcerer's 15, AND their spell list is much bigger. Even their short rest recovery is better and comes way earlier. Sorcerers were one of my favorite concepts before, but they way they work in 5e makes me never want to play one versus a Wizard.

    The thing about Lore wizardry and why I feel that it would be better suited to a sorcerer is that it feels like something that was in a test concept for a wild mage; the idea that you can simply mutate spells so you are doing thundering hands, Icing bolts, and acid storms as a side effect of your wild surges going bonkers.

    Further, the lore wizard completely blows out the evokers asshole as a blaster mage.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    Sleep
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    Or be a Lore Master Wizard and just pick your saves for every spell. I think it might be a little unbalanced...

    I think I'd be less disgusted at the inherent absurdity of the lore master wizard's power set if it had been a sorcerer archetype instead, since wizards are supposed to be the refined masters of ritualized casting while Sorcerers are supposed to wield it as a primal force it would make more sense for them to have it due to it's mutagenic properties.

    I have someone playing a lore master now.

    Only reason I gave it to the player is that i expect them to just forget they can do that for a long time because they don't normally play casters and will just be working on getting spells going for a while.

    One of the complaints I read about it is that it steps on the sorcerer's toes of "flexibility". I'm not sure I get that argument. I like the idea of giving sorcerers metamagic, but they limit it pretty severely. You only get two choices to start, and two more by level 17. Going through them one by one:

    Careful Spell-Not quite as good as Evocation wizard (they still take half damage, though you can use it on other than evocation spells). Decent if you have melee friends and love Fireball
    Distant Spell-Most spells have a pretty decent range, and doubling it isn't usually game-changing
    Empowered Spell-Rerolling is nice, but again not game-changing. Not nearly as good as the old Maximize Spell
    Extended Spell-Most spells last a minute and have Concentration. It also caps at 24 hours. There must be some good options?
    Heightened Spell-Pricey, but extremely nice for your save or suck spells
    Quickened Spell-You can't cast two spells with this. Spell+cantrip is a nice damage dump, but nothing amazing
    Subtle Spell-Seems extremely situational
    Twinned Spell-Very nice, I like this one a great deal for single target status effects or powerful single target buffs.

    So at 3rd level I'm probably going Twinned Spell and one of Heightened/Careful/Empowered?

    But Wizards have more actual flexibility, since they can potentially learn every Wizard spell, and their daily spell list ends up at 25 vs the Sorcerer's 15, AND their spell list is much bigger. Even their short rest recovery is better and comes way earlier. Sorcerers were one of my favorite concepts before, but they way they work in 5e makes me never want to play one versus a Wizard.

    Metamagic value is literally insane but people just don't realize it. The three big ones are Empower, Careful, and Subtle.

    Careful isn't as good for blasts... But you know what you cannot do on a wizard. Guarantee that your allies succeed on the first save of Hypnotic Pattern... or Fear. Guaranteeing a save on big AoE CC spells is amazing.

    Empowered Spell is almost strictly better than quicken for damage. Its about a 19% increase in damage... for one point... that you don't have to spend if you roll well. In terms of average damage it increases a spell levels effective level by about 1. As an example: Fireball does 8d6 damage for an average of 28. Empowered (18 charisma) does an average of 33.22. Cone of Cold (5th level spell) does an average of 36.

    A quickened firebolt gives 5.5 x hit% x bolts/2 damage per point... Assuming a 70% hit rate this is only as good as an empowered spell if you hit about one target with the fireball. Quicken is better in general for getting actions like dodge or dash or disengage while still casting a real spell.

    Twinned is highly situational.

    Subtle is the most powerful metamagic in the game except that most DM's don't pay attention to spell requirements and effects. Spellcasting is weird and loud. Suggestion? Yea in social settings everyone knows you just suggested something.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    Since when are magic spells yelled? Can't wizards mutter?

    sig.gifSteam | D3: captaink#1674 | 3DS: 2466-1914-7679
  • see317see317 Taco Count 2017: 61 Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    Since when are magic spells yelled? Can't wizards mutter?

    Sure, but that might be noticed. Subtle spells seem better suited for less combat oriented sessions. I mean, when you're facing down a horde of screaming orcs, being sneaky about a fireball isn't going to help much.
    On the other hand, if you're on trial, surrounded by officers of the court and assorted other witnesses, having that secret fireball go off in the jury box while everyone else in the court room can say that they didn't see you so much as twitch or mutter under your breath...

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Anialositalianranma
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    The problem with subtle spell is that in most cases where you want to stealthily cast a spell but don't have something like subtle spell, a good DM is going to let you make a deception or slight of hand check or something to try and disguise your casting because it's good gameplay and good storytelling.

    And in an environment where that's the case, spending one of your very limited metamagic options on the ability to spend a resource to auto-succeed on a skill check that might never even come up and which you stand a good chance at succeeding on anyway if it does just isn't a compelling option.

    ElvenshaeJustTeeSleep
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    captaink wrote: »
    Since when are magic spells yelled? Can't wizards mutter?

    Since basically forever. You must intonate the magic. You're a wizard completing a minor ritual in order to released stored energy

    wbBv3fj.png
    Sleep
  • EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    In wizarding school the wizard-nuns would slap you with a ruler for not enunciating properly.

    TheDrifter
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    I think that's a DM style thing. RAW, the only thing about verbal components is that you can't cast verbal spells while silenced or gagged.

    sig.gifSteam | D3: captaink#1674 | 3DS: 2466-1914-7679
  • see317see317 Taco Count 2017: 61 Registered User regular
    It's wingardium leviosa.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    ElvenshaeSleepSteelhawkitalianranmaEinzelTheDriftertinwhiskersAegis
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Shouting, normal voiced or whispering had always been a flavour thing, IMO. If the spell has a vocal component then it must be spoken out loud.

    How loud is up to the player.

    SleepJustTeeElvenshae
  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    captaink wrote: »
    Or be a Lore Master Wizard and just pick your saves for every spell. I think it might be a little unbalanced...

    I think I'd be less disgusted at the inherent absurdity of the lore master wizard's power set if it had been a sorcerer archetype instead, since wizards are supposed to be the refined masters of ritualized casting while Sorcerers are supposed to wield it as a primal force it would make more sense for them to have it due to it's mutagenic properties.

    I have someone playing a lore master now.

    Only reason I gave it to the player is that i expect them to just forget they can do that for a long time because they don't normally play casters and will just be working on getting spells going for a while.

    One of the complaints I read about it is that it steps on the sorcerer's toes of "flexibility". I'm not sure I get that argument. I like the idea of giving sorcerers metamagic, but they limit it pretty severely. You only get two choices to start, and two more by level 17. Going through them one by one:

    Careful Spell-Not quite as good as Evocation wizard (they still take half damage, though you can use it on other than evocation spells). Decent if you have melee friends and love Fireball
    Distant Spell-Most spells have a pretty decent range, and doubling it isn't usually game-changing
    Empowered Spell-Rerolling is nice, but again not game-changing. Not nearly as good as the old Maximize Spell
    Extended Spell-Most spells last a minute and have Concentration. It also caps at 24 hours. There must be some good options?
    Heightened Spell-Pricey, but extremely nice for your save or suck spells
    Quickened Spell-You can't cast two spells with this. Spell+cantrip is a nice damage dump, but nothing amazing
    Subtle Spell-Seems extremely situational
    Twinned Spell-Very nice, I like this one a great deal for single target status effects or powerful single target buffs.

    So at 3rd level I'm probably going Twinned Spell and one of Heightened/Careful/Empowered?

    But Wizards have more actual flexibility, since they can potentially learn every Wizard spell, and their daily spell list ends up at 25 vs the Sorcerer's 15, AND their spell list is much bigger. Even their short rest recovery is better and comes way earlier. Sorcerers were one of my favorite concepts before, but they way they work in 5e makes me never want to play one versus a Wizard.

    Metamagic value is literally insane but people just don't realize it. The three big ones are Empower, Careful, and Subtle.

    Careful isn't as good for blasts... But you know what you cannot do on a wizard. Guarantee that your allies succeed on the first save of Hypnotic Pattern... or Fear. Guaranteeing a save on big AoE CC spells is amazing.

    Empowered Spell is almost strictly better than quicken for damage. Its about a 19% increase in damage... for one point... that you don't have to spend if you roll well. In terms of average damage it increases a spell levels effective level by about 1. As an example: Fireball does 8d6 damage for an average of 28. Empowered (18 charisma) does an average of 33.22. Cone of Cold (5th level spell) does an average of 36.

    A quickened firebolt gives 5.5 x hit% x bolts/2 damage per point... Assuming a 70% hit rate this is only as good as an empowered spell if you hit about one target with the fireball. Quicken is better in general for getting actions like dodge or dash or disengage while still casting a real spell.

    Twinned is highly situational.

    Subtle is the most powerful metamagic in the game except that most DM's don't pay attention to spell requirements and effects. Spellcasting is weird and loud. Suggestion? Yea in social settings everyone knows you just suggested something.

    Most of the time I don't need to place my allies in my area effect spells, so Careful does nothing for me. Value could vary by DM, depending on how often and how severely they get enemies mixed in with the party.

    I'm not enough in tune with the monsters' HP to know when I want 33.22 damage instead of 28 damage. I think I'd usually rather just turn five Empowers into an extra Fireball for later. Admittedly my option is worse on action economy, though.

    Agree that Twinned has a pretty narrow use case, but getting to cheat and have effectively two Concentration spells running at once (Haste) is noteworthy.

    Subtle depends a lot on DM. Could be pretty good if you find yourself bound. Or if you're up against enemies abusing Silence. If either of those was happening to me frequently, I'd feel I was being unfairly targeted by the DM. As for the social uses...I guess? That's not something I'd want to spend my limited selections on (both the metamagic and the necessary spells) but maybe for other players it'd be interesting.

  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    Steelhawk wrote: »
    Shouting, normal voiced or whispering had always been a flavour thing, IMO. If the spell has a vocal component then it must be spoken out loud.

    How loud is up to the player.

    Not quite the same, but in last week's adventure the players were sneaking into a wizard's tower at night. They debated for quite some time before deciding against casting Knock to get past a door, relying on good old fashioned thieving tools and lookouts instead. After infiltrating the tower they came upon the barracks with sleeping guards, and the Druid made a great play by entangling them all as they slept. Of course I ruled they all woke up instantly due to the spell effects, so the druid on her next turn cast Thunderwave (cue the rest of the party face-palming) and alerted the rest of the tower. I really like how some of the spells like knock have those narrative consequences on being cast, and I agree that casting Suggestion or Charm is immediately obvious to anyone who's seen it before (and suspicious to anyone who knows what magic is).

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
    Steelhawk
  • EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    Could you twin Bless?

  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Einzel wrote: »
    Could you twin Bless?

    No. Twin requires a spell that targets only one creature.

    SleepJustTee
  • EinzelEinzel Registered User regular
    Derp, I should've known that.

  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Empowered Spell is almost strictly better than quicken for damage. Its about a 19% increase in damage... for one point... that you don't have to spend if you roll well. In terms of average damage it increases a spell levels effective level by about 1. As an example: Fireball does 8d6 damage for an average of 28. Empowered (18 charisma) does an average of 33.22. Cone of Cold (5th level spell) does an average of 36.

    You can crank that up to 33.6 average if you only reroll 1s, 2s and 3s!
    I don't think you're comparing it fairly, however; Aoe spells will shift the favour towards empower, single target spells prefer quicken.

    example: fireball's extra damage is 5 x the number of targets; take an average firebolt for that level (11) and you only need 3 targets to come out ahead.
    compare blight, an empowered blight (rerolling 1s, 2s, and 3s) comes out at 43.2 over the 36 average, 36+11 = 48 > 43!

    Later on with things like investiture of flame, you're getting a free nova and a proper spell with quicken!
    I wouldn't be so quick (hah!) to dismiss it.

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 15
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Empowered Spell is almost strictly better than quicken for damage. Its about a 19% increase in damage... for one point... that you don't have to spend if you roll well. In terms of average damage it increases a spell levels effective level by about 1. As an example: Fireball does 8d6 damage for an average of 28. Empowered (18 charisma) does an average of 33.22. Cone of Cold (5th level spell) does an average of 36.

    You can crank that up to 33.6 average if you only reroll 1s, 2s and 3s!
    I don't think you're comparing it fairly, however; Aoe spells will shift the favour towards empower, single target spells prefer quicken.

    example: fireball's extra damage is 5 x the number of targets; take an average firebolt for that level (11) and you only need 3 targets to come out ahead.
    compare blight, an empowered blight (rerolling 1s, 2s, and 3s) comes out at 43.2 over the 36 average, 36+11 = 48 > 43!

    Later on with things like investiture of flame, you're getting a free nova and a proper spell with quicken!
    I wouldn't be so quick (hah!) to dismiss it.

    I am not sure how you're getting your averages. (I am doing highest 4 of 8d6 + 4 rerolls of dice below the average). It may not be perfectly accurate but it should be about as close as reasonable given the constraints of not actually running a montecarlo simulation.

    Anyway: 47>43 but 48 costs 2 spell points and 43 costs 1. You gain 11/2 = 5.5 per spell point versus 7.2 per spell point. (and that is assuming that you hit with your spell... and you don't even have to spend the point on the empower if you roll well!)

    While there are a few spells with action effects that you can then quicken they're few and far between. Sunbeam being the best of them. But that basically limits you to 5th and 6th level spells for this type of action. Though quickening on the same turn you have them running is also a good option the primary value isn't here.

    The real value of quicken is that it allows you to cast a spell on the same turn you take the dodge, dash, hide, or use an object actions. It could almost be written as "You may spend 2 sorcerery points to take the dodge, dash, hide, disengage, or use an object actions as a bonus action". Those actions are not weak in any sense of the word. And its good value to get them. But as a damaging action its not particularly valuable.

    Goumindong on
    wbBv3fj.png
  • evilthecatevilthecat Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    evilthecat wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    Empowered Spell is almost strictly better than quicken for damage. Its about a 19% increase in damage... for one point... that you don't have to spend if you roll well. In terms of average damage it increases a spell levels effective level by about 1. As an example: Fireball does 8d6 damage for an average of 28. Empowered (18 charisma) does an average of 33.22. Cone of Cold (5th level spell) does an average of 36.

    You can crank that up to 33.6 average if you only reroll 1s, 2s and 3s!
    I don't think you're comparing it fairly, however; Aoe spells will shift the favour towards empower, single target spells prefer quicken.

    example: fireball's extra damage is 5 x the number of targets; take an average firebolt for that level (11) and you only need 3 targets to come out ahead.
    compare blight, an empowered blight (rerolling 1s, 2s, and 3s) comes out at 43.2 over the 36 average, 36+11 = 48 > 43!

    Later on with things like investiture of flame, you're getting a free nova and a proper spell with quicken!
    I wouldn't be so quick (hah!) to dismiss it.

    I am not sure how you're getting your averages. (I am doing highest 4 of 8d6 + 4 rerolls of dice below the average). It may not be perfectly accurate but it should be about as close as reasonable given the constraints of not actually running a montecarlo simulation.

    Anyway: 47>43 but 48 costs 2 spell points and 43 costs 1. You gain 11/2 = 5.5 per spell point versus 7.2 per spell point. (and that is assuming that you hit with your spell... and you don't even have to spend the point on the empower if you roll well!)

    While there are a few spells with action effects that you can then quicken they're few and far between. Sunbeam being the best of them. But that basically limits you to 5th and 6th level spells for this type of action. Though quickening on the same turn you have them running is also a good option the primary value isn't here.

    The real value of quicken is that it allows you to cast a spell on the same turn you take the dodge, dash, hide, or use an object actions. It could almost be written as "You may spend 2 sorcerery points to take the dodge, dash, hide, disengage, or use an object actions as a bonus action". Those actions are not weak in any sense of the word. And its good value to get them. But as a damaging action its not particularly valuable.

    I wrote a small program that simulates the rolling procedure.
    Yeah points are points but honestly if you need something dead then you'll be glad that you can spend more to get the damage out faster.
    I don't agree with your assessment but each to their own!

    tip.. tip.. TALLY.. HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    I think the actual problem here is that we're trying to compare Empower on a spell that is a particularly good empower target with quicken on a spell that is a bad quicken target.

    An Eldritch Blast at the same level is gonna average 18 damage compared to the 11 from a firebolt (and realistically even the firebolt should probably actually be averaging 15 damage from draconic ancestry if you're going to use it at all), which comes out to 9 damage per point. You do have to hit, but the empowered fireball still loses half its already-lower damage per sorcery point if they make their save, which is a comparable risk, and choosing quicken still leaves all your non-damage-related disengage/hide/make a skill check options available whereas choosing empower does not, and you can quicken cantrips without spending spell slots whereas empower is only going to give you value if you're already also burning other resources.

  • see317see317 Taco Count 2017: 61 Registered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    Well, if you're following the Undermountain game, we just finished killing 37 Stirges in which has to be the most clown fiesta of clown fiestas I've been a part of.
    Just saying, somebody had the idea to put treasure chests, an unending stream of giant mosquito monsters and player characters in the same room.
    There's only so many ways that could work out, but I don't see any that don't include a giant pile of mosquito corpses being made.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
    Elvenshae
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    Abbalah wrote: »
    I think the actual problem here is that we're trying to compare Empower on a spell that is a particularly good empower target with quicken on a spell that is a bad quicken target.

    An Eldritch Blast at the same level is gonna average 18 damage compared to the 11 from a firebolt (and realistically even the firebolt should probably actually be averaging 15 damage from draconic ancestry if you're going to use it at all), which comes out to 9 damage per point. You do have to hit, but the empowered fireball still loses half its already-lower damage per sorcery point if they make their save, which is a comparable risk, and choosing quicken still leaves all your non-damage-related disengage/hide/make a skill check options available whereas choosing empower does not, and you can quicken cantrips without spending spell slots whereas empower is only going to give you value if you're already also burning other resources.

    Eldritch Blasts costs you two levels of sorcerer progression and is really not worth it.

    Again, quicken is good, its just not really a "gonna do a lot of damage" option. Its the "need to do something else plus spellcast" option.

    Empower is as or more efficient (at level 3+ spells) in terms of raw points compared to buying extra spell slots. Its efficiency goes up as the game goes on until 9th level spells. Its the only metamagic which you can use at the same time as other metamatic options

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  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Realistically it costs you 3 levels, because once you have 2 lock levels you might as well get the 3rd so your warlock slots go to level 2 and you can pick up a pact boon. I'd contest the idea that it's not worth it, though, because those lock levels get you a lot of value for minimal cost and a sorc/lock is ultimately going to be stronger than a pure sorc for most of the level curve, in large part because of the power level of agonizing blast ->quicken another agonizing blast as a baseline combat turn.

    The conversion between spell slots and sorcery point is another reason the efficiency math being discussed is off - empowering a fireball does not cost 1 sorcery point, it costs 4, because you could have melted that level 3 slot down into 3 sorcery points to spend on quickened cantrips instead of casting a fireball with them. Even when empower is allowing you to hit higher damage spikes - which is only going to happen consistently in scenarios with multiple targets for your aoe spells - it's still burning through your resources at a significantly higher rate for less value per point. It's also going fall even further behind past level 11, when you start getting a third bolt from each eldritch blast (and your CHA mod goes to 5, buffing your eldritch blast damage but not your fireball damage). And the sorc/lock is going to have more sorcery points to spend per day at most levels to boot, because it can melt its warlock slots down for 4 sorcery points per short rest - the sorcery points from melting down the missing high-level sorcerer slots per day won't start to consistently outpace the ones from melting down the short-rest warlock slots until the teens, at which point the sorc/lock will be close to getting its 4th eldritch blast bolt and pulling even further ahead.

    Even looking solely at a single-class sorcerer, you're still shortchanging the value of quicken if you're calculating the average damage of a firebolt without including the cha mod - we can't have a discussion about which sorcerer options are mathematically better for a player who is trying to optimize their damage output with elemental spells and then assume that player has chosen to play a wild magic sorc.

  • NotoriusBENNotoriusBEN Registered User regular
    edited July 17
    Relevent to the thread

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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    Wait, you can melt short-rest spells from Warlock into extra sorcery points? BRB updating character build

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited July 17
    The only way empowering a fireball costs "4" points is if you found the damage of the fireball into the efficiency.... which will not come out advantageous for quicken.

    That increases the spell point efficiency for the full enhanced fireball to 8.4 from 7.2. Assuming a 50% hit rate on fireball and a 75% hit rate on bolt you would need four bolts (or three and fire based dragon sorcerer) in order to get the better efficiency per point on a single target.

    Ed; Dipping warlock can be worth it but it's not "more powerful for most of the level range" especially because the optimal warlock levels is 5 (for third level slots for more fireballs). While you're in the dip you're losing significant top level spell progression and even raw power from actually strong quicken combos like sunbeam.

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  • ozone275ozone275 Registered User regular
    so i have i question to pose to the group

    Under white dragon's lair in the MM, it says
    "A legendary white dragon's innate magic deepens
    the cold in the area around its lair. Mountain caverns
    are fast frozen by the white dragon's presence. A
    white dragon can often detect intruders by the way the
    keening wind in its lair changes tone."

    and in the DM guide it says
    EXTREME COLD
    Whenever the temperature is at or below 0 degrees
    Fahrenheit(-18 degrees Celsius), a creature exposed to the cold must succeed
    on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw at the end of each
    hour or gain one level of exhaustion. Creatures with
    resistance or immunity to cold damage automatically
    succeed on the saving throw, as do creatures wearing
    cold weather gear (thick coats, gloves, and the like) and
    creatures naturally adapted to cold climates.

    so my question is does a White dragon, adult in this specific case, cause its lair to be cold enough to be considered Extreme Cold?

  • AegeriAegeri Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited July 20
    If you feel it's appropriate or if it makes the adventure more interesting, then yes.

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  • see317see317 Taco Count 2017: 61 Registered User regular
    On the subject of dragons and sorcerers...
    Dragonborn Sorcerer with a Draconic Bloodline origin.

    Do you let the player pick two dragon types? Do you smack them down for being min/maxing power gamers? Do you play it by ear and let them try to lay out their interesting backstory full of dragon sexy times?

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • captainkcaptaink TexasRegistered User regular
    edited July 20
    The bits from Dragonborn and Draconic Sorcerer mostly don't overlap, so picking two different origins doesn't matter that much.
    Dragonborn: breath weapon and always on resistance
    Sorcerer: extra damage of that element and resistance for one sorcery point, double charisma proficiency v. dragons, natural AC, flying, Fear/charm 1/day
    Both give draconic language

    So, not a big deal. The minmaxiest thing you can do is have always on fire resistance plus activable cold resistance.

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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited July 20
    ozone275 wrote: »
    so i have i question to pose to the group

    Under white dragon's lair in the MM, it says
    "A legendary white dragon's innate magic deepens
    the cold in the area around its lair. Mountain caverns
    are fast frozen by the white dragon's presence. A
    white dragon can often detect intruders by the way the
    keening wind in its lair changes tone."

    and in the DM guide it says
    EXTREME COLD
    Whenever the temperature is at or below 0 degrees
    Fahrenheit(-18 degrees Celsius), a creature exposed to the cold must succeed
    on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw at the end of each
    hour or gain one level of exhaustion. Creatures with
    resistance or immunity to cold damage automatically
    succeed on the saving throw, as do creatures wearing
    cold weather gear (thick coats, gloves, and the like)
    and
    creatures naturally adapted to cold climates.

    so my question is does a White dragon, adult in this specific case, cause its lair to be cold enough to be considered Extreme Cold?

    Presumably if the characters are going somewhere that Extreme Cold is likely to be an issue, they're going to bundle up, unless there's some reason they wouldn't. Like climate magic allowing that lair to exist in the middle of a scorching desert. Hmm, that actually sounds interesting...

    (answer to the actual question: yeah, if anything is going to count as extreme cold, I would say a white dragon's lair should)

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  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    Yeah. I would say of course a white dragon's lair would be extremely cold.

    And if the PC's had planned on being anywhere where it was going to be cold and took measures to combat the cold, with furs and heavier clothing and the like, then the Extreme Cold becomes nothing more than fluff for your descriptions of the lair.

    JustTee
  • RainfallRainfall If you do not repay me, I will RECLAIM the ball.Registered User regular
    edited July 20
    see317 wrote: »
    On the subject of dragons and sorcerers...
    Dragonborn Sorcerer with a Draconic Bloodline origin.

    Do you let the player pick two dragon types? Do you smack them down for being min/maxing power gamers? Do you play it by ear and let them try to lay out their interesting backstory full of dragon sexy times?

    I made a Dragonborn/Draconic Sorcerer who was Gold/Red and had a crush on a Dragon Turtle descendant, the shame from that caused him to be exiled by both halves of his family.

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