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Vindicated/Vilified by History! Which President was the best?

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Posts

  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Truman and the nukes

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Monroe is the worst for purchasing Florida.

    Give it back to Spain, and relocate me somewhere not deadly in every respect.

    Guns make you stupid. Better to fight your wars with duct tape. Duct tape makes you smart.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Here's an interesting question: What's the single biggest black mark you'd put on a president's record while still thinking that President's record is overall good?

    This one is difficult for me, but depending on my mood it's either FDR's internment of Japanese-American citizens, or Woodrow Wilson's occupation of Haiti

    Probably that one time Obama wore mom jeans on a bike, but he was still overall a good President:

    AcBn60V.jpg

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    hi i'm Teddy Roosevelt and I fucking charged a fortified hill while under fire on horseback
    For me, Lincoln and Teddy are 1a and 1b, but I think that Licoln will get a ton of votes so I showed my appreciation for Teddy.

    Lincoln's achievements are legendary - putting the US back together and ending slavery - but ultimately I think that Teddy's achievements set the stage for the 20th century. His Square Deal broke up the trusts, regulated industry, established standards for food and drugs, created national parks, and some of the things that he tried to push for were higher inheritance taxes to prevent the extremely rich from creating a perpetual de facto aristocracy, postal banking to compete with local banks, he wanted to cut down on injunctions against striking unions, for corporation law to be national rather than by state, a federal income tax, etc. He was the first modern Progressive President, and in some ways he was more of a lefty than politicians today.

    If you're judging a President solely by what they did in office, Teddy was absolutely remarkable,

    I agree with this sentiment completely, although I'd put Teddy ahead of Abe by a nose. If not just for the fact that Teddy survived his assassination attempt, and gave a speech in the same day...


    I couldn't resist chiming in on this topic as I think it's one that really shows people's true inclinations and ability to distinguish signal to noise. Teddy Roosevelt is one of the few individuals like Washington, Cincinatus, Cromwell that almost make valid the great people view of history. Like seriously, Teddy should win a prize just for most life lived while overcoming some incredibly ridiculous adversities (like his wife and mother dying in the same week when he was in his twenties...). Anyone who could put that other Roosevelt (that tarnishes the name, imo) over Teddy simply doesn't understand the history of things, and associates fdr with ending ww2 and the Great Depression;moth statement so divorced of fact and so far away from the truth it's absurd.

    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.


    Reagan was a dementia ridden, addled brain puppet without a single piece of legislation that wasn't suited to some group of special interests who pulled his strings. Easily bottom 10%

    I could go on and on as presidents and their effectiveness with history in mind is one of my favorite topics, but I also just wanted to mention not nearly enough Harding's and Hoover's on those worst of lists.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    hi i'm Teddy Roosevelt and I fucking charged a fortified hill while under fire on horseback
    For me, Lincoln and Teddy are 1a and 1b, but I think that Licoln will get a ton of votes so I showed my appreciation for Teddy.

    Lincoln's achievements are legendary - putting the US back together and ending slavery - but ultimately I think that Teddy's achievements set the stage for the 20th century. His Square Deal broke up the trusts, regulated industry, established standards for food and drugs, created national parks, and some of the things that he tried to push for were higher inheritance taxes to prevent the extremely rich from creating a perpetual de facto aristocracy, postal banking to compete with local banks, he wanted to cut down on injunctions against striking unions, for corporation law to be national rather than by state, a federal income tax, etc. He was the first modern Progressive President, and in some ways he was more of a lefty than politicians today.

    If you're judging a President solely by what they did in office, Teddy was absolutely remarkable,

    I agree with this sentiment completely, although I'd put Teddy ahead of Abe by a nose. If not just for the fact that Teddy survived his assassination attempt, and gave a speech in the same day...


    I couldn't resist chiming in on this topic as I think it's one that really shows people's true inclinations and ability to distinguish signal to noise. Teddy Roosevelt is one of the few individuals like Washington, Cincinatus, Cromwell that almost make valid the great people view of history. Like seriously, Teddy should win a prize just for most life lived while overcoming some incredibly ridiculous adversities (like his wife and mother dying in the same week when he was in his twenties...). Anyone who could put that other Roosevelt (that tarnishes the name, imo) over Teddy simply doesn't understand the history of things, and associates fdr with ending ww2 and the Great Depression;moth statement so divorced of fact and so far away from the truth it's absurd.

    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.


    Reagan was a dementia ridden, addled brain puppet without a single piece of legislation that wasn't suited to some group of special interests who pulled his strings. Easily bottom 10%

    I could go on and on as presidents and their effectiveness with history in mind is one of my favorite topics, but I also just wanted to mention not nearly enough Harding's and Hoover's on those worst of lists.

    Man Teddy was an awesome, badass dude, and you'll get no disagreement from me that he did some great things, but you're really selling FDR short by quite a lot IMO.

    Do you like Thanksgiving being a national holiday? You've got FDR to thank for that!

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • Solomaxwell6Solomaxwell6 Registered User regular
    Other
    For people who rated Obama as #1, what's your reasoning? He's done a lot of good things, but I don't see how anyone could put him in the same league as an FDR or a Lincoln.

    It's way too early to objectively tell, but I think it's most likely that history will rate Obama as an above average but unexceptional president.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    For people who rated Obama as #1, what's your reasoning? He's done a lot of good things, but I don't see how anyone could put him in the same league as an FDR or a Lincoln.

    It's way too early to objectively tell, but I think it's most likely that history will rate Obama as an above average but unexceptional president.

    Who's your favorite?

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    Shorty wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Eisenhower is generally regarded to be in the top 10 presidents by historians

    and I would agree

    I would go so far as to say that he's absolutely the best postwar president

    Usually he's lauded by conservatives more than liberals.

    But as the liberalist libby lib that ever libbed, I really like the guy. If modern Republicans were modeled after Ike rather than Reagan, I might consider tossing them a vote once in a while.

    I think that's mainly just because he has an R next to his name

    if they knew anything about his record, or how parties were structured in the 50's, they wouldn't like him

    like I cannot imagine any modern Republican being aware of his farewell address and thinking highly of him

    and yeah, agreed--if the GOP of today was full of people like Ike, I'd be much happier with the state of our government

    As we peer into society's future, we – you and I, and our government – must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without asking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

    Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporations.

    Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence—economic, political, even spiritual—is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

    Pretty great stuff. :+1:

    As long as you ignore his role in feeding that beast. Operation Ajax, anyone?

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    hi i'm Teddy Roosevelt and I fucking charged a fortified hill while under fire on horseback
    For me, Lincoln and Teddy are 1a and 1b, but I think that Licoln will get a ton of votes so I showed my appreciation for Teddy.

    Lincoln's achievements are legendary - putting the US back together and ending slavery - but ultimately I think that Teddy's achievements set the stage for the 20th century. His Square Deal broke up the trusts, regulated industry, established standards for food and drugs, created national parks, and some of the things that he tried to push for were higher inheritance taxes to prevent the extremely rich from creating a perpetual de facto aristocracy, postal banking to compete with local banks, he wanted to cut down on injunctions against striking unions, for corporation law to be national rather than by state, a federal income tax, etc. He was the first modern Progressive President, and in some ways he was more of a lefty than politicians today.

    If you're judging a President solely by what they did in office, Teddy was absolutely remarkable,

    I agree with this sentiment completely, although I'd put Teddy ahead of Abe by a nose. If not just for the fact that Teddy survived his assassination attempt, and gave a speech in the same day...


    I couldn't resist chiming in on this topic as I think it's one that really shows people's true inclinations and ability to distinguish signal to noise. Teddy Roosevelt is one of the few individuals like Washington, Cincinatus, Cromwell that almost make valid the great people view of history. Like seriously, Teddy should win a prize just for most life lived while overcoming some incredibly ridiculous adversities (like his wife and mother dying in the same week when he was in his twenties...). Anyone who could put that other Roosevelt (that tarnishes the name, imo) over Teddy simply doesn't understand the history of things, and associates fdr with ending ww2 and the Great Depression;moth statement so divorced of fact and so far away from the truth it's absurd.

    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.


    Reagan was a dementia ridden, addled brain puppet without a single piece of legislation that wasn't suited to some group of special interests who pulled his strings. Easily bottom 10%

    I could go on and on as presidents and their effectiveness with history in mind is one of my favorite topics, but I also just wanted to mention not nearly enough Harding's and Hoover's on those worst of lists.

    Man Teddy was an awesome, badass dude, and you'll get no disagreement from me that he did some great things, but you're really selling FDR short by quite a lot IMO.

    Do you like Thanksgiving being a national holiday? You've got FDR to thank for that!

    I love the irony of the holiday, BUT ;)

    i just think FDR is a bottom tier president and was a more politically than ideologically motivated president than most people really believe. I also am not a booster of the new deal or a believer in the publically given reasonings for his support of social security. He also did the internment and prolonged ww2 and delayed our intervention for personal political reasons... I'd put fdr in bottom third, personally.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Shorty wrote: »
    Shorty wrote: »
    Eisenhower is generally regarded to be in the top 10 presidents by historians

    and I would agree

    I would go so far as to say that he's absolutely the best postwar president

    Usually he's lauded by conservatives more than liberals.

    But as the liberalist libby lib that ever libbed, I really like the guy. If modern Republicans were modeled after Ike rather than Reagan, I might consider tossing them a vote once in a while.

    I think that's mainly just because he has an R next to his name

    if they knew anything about his record, or how parties were structured in the 50's, they wouldn't like him

    like I cannot imagine any modern Republican being aware of his farewell address and thinking highly of him

    and yeah, agreed--if the GOP of today was full of people like Ike, I'd be much happier with the state of our government

    As we peer into society's future, we – you and I, and our government – must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering for, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without asking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

    Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporations.

    Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence—economic, political, even spiritual—is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet, we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.

    In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

    Pretty great stuff. :+1:

    As long as you ignore his role in feeding that beast. Operation Ajax, anyone?

    Literally every President has been at least a little hypocritical. Given this was his farewell address, it is possible that he had had a change of heart.

    Not even Obama is exempt from failing to live up to his ideals.

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    I'm having trouble deciding between the Roosevelts.

    wpyz0Y5.png
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.

    He "established" the EPA to preempt the Democratic Congress from going further with environmental laws, he was the only one who could open China thanks to his making the topic political poison for anyone else, and Kissinger is a fucking war criminal who should have been sent to The Hague long ago. Not to mention that he was also the architect of the Southern Strategy.

    Nixon was a horrible President.

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  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I'm having trouble deciding between the Roosevelts.

    *glares*

    Go for the one that didn't lie to the American public for the majority of his presidency and enacted the most racist federal legislature of the 20th century..

  • Knight_Knight_ Dead Dead Dead Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    I don't know that I've ever heard anyone try and put FDR into the bottom third.

    I guess new things happen every day.

    aeNqQM9.jpg
  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.

    He "established" the EPA to preempt the Democratic Congress from going further with environmental laws, he was the only one who could open China thanks to his making the topic political poison for anyone else, and Kissinger is a fucking war criminal who should have been sent to The Hague long ago. Not to mention that he was also the architect of the Southern Strategy.

    Nixon was a horrible President.
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.

    He "established" the EPA to preempt the Democratic Congress from going further with environmental laws, he was the only one who could open China thanks to his making the topic political poison for anyone else, and Kissinger is a fucking war criminal who should have been sent to The Hague long ago. Not to mention that he was also the architect of the Southern Strategy.

    Nixon was a horrible President.

    I've never heard of that first, and you're dead wrong about the latter, he just was the first to utilize it against Kennedy and it may have cost him that election.

    Tricky Dick and fdr are the perfect signal to noise presidents. They are polar opposites of their publically held personas, imo.

  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Real talk I had a brain fart voting and got my Roosevelts mixed up. Nothing against Teddy but I wanted FDR.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    I appreciate the diversity of opinions because otherwise we'd all just be nodding and agreeing with each other.

    But Nixon's Vietnam policy was just awful. His dilly-dallying and two-faced politics resulted in 15,000 Americans and half a million Vietnamese dead.

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Well, let me clarify, I don't think Nixon was a good
    man, but he was a deeply effective politician and a good president for the United States, and one of the most qualified presidents we've ever had. He was just delusional, a drunk and an ego maniac. Good president and did more good than bad and got us out of Vietnam. Definitely a better president than carter or ford.

  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Adams presidency has the black marks of the alien and sedition acts. Both grossly unconstitutional laws. He trusted the members of Washington's cabinet when he should have tossed them all and made a coalition of the two emerging parties.

    It did not help that Jefferson was actively working against him behind the scenes.

    In spite of all his shortcomings as a politician, Adams stuberness and persuit of peace kept us out of a war at a time that could have fractured the union.

    I find the critics of Jeffersons accomplishments amusing. The LA purchase was not luck, he had persued that angle for a while and it paid off. The irony of his presidency is that he, in some ways, in acted Adams policies, especially in keeping and expanding the navy and using them to fight the war of 1812 and the Barbary States.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Abraham Lincoln
    If nothing else, fuck Nixon for making every other scandal ever get the -Gate suffix.

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • ArdolArdol Registered User regular
    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    I mean Nixon sabotaged the peace talks in 1968 in the lead up to the election.
    Did Richard Nixon’s campaign conspire to scuttle the Vietnam War peace talks on the eve of the 1968 election to capture him the presidency?

    Absolutely, says Tom Charles Huston, the author of a comprehensive, still-secret report he prepared as a White House aide to Nixon. In one of 10 oral histories conducted by the National Archives and opened last week, Huston says “there is no question” that Nixon campaign aides sent a message to the South Vietnamese government, promising better terms if it obstructed the talks, and helped Nixon get elected.
    That alone should put him way towards the bottom.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Well, let me clarify, I don't think Nixon was a good
    man, but he was a deeply effective politician and a good president for the United States, and one of the most qualified presidents we've ever had. He was just delusional, a drunk and an ego maniac. Good president and did more good than bad and got us out of Vietnam. Definitely a better president than carter or ford.

    After keeping us in Vietnam by sabotaging the Paris Peace Talks.

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  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Kruite wrote: »
    Adams presidency has the black marks of the alien and sedition acts. Both grossly unconstitutional laws. He trusted the members of Washington's cabinet when he should have tossed them all and made a coalition of the two emerging parties.

    It did not help that Jefferson was actively working against him behind the scenes.

    In spite of all his shortcomings as a politician, Adams stuberness and persuit of peace kept us out of a war at a time that could have fractured the union.

    I find the critics of Jeffersons accomplishments amusing. The LA purchase was not luck, he had persued that angle for a while and it paid off. The irony of his presidency is that he, in some ways, in acted Adams policies, especially in keeping and expanding the navy and using them to fight the war of 1812 and the Barbary States.


    Yea, the Louisiana purchase most definitely wasn't luck. It was just the closest to funding Napoleon's war machine Jefferson could get. Jefferson was a complete Francophile and had been encouraging the us to get involved with the French Revolution and side with France over Great Britain in the napoleonic wars. There's a lot of politics that play into it, but it was a long time coming and the purchase most likely was delayed for Jeffersons presidency, but it wasn't lucky he got it.

    MadCaddy on
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Yeah you don't get credit for pulling us out of a war you intentionally prolonged for your own personal benefit.

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    The love of JFK is one of those things that has always baffled me. He brought us to the brink of nuclear war, got us stuck in vietnam, and was a pretty shit human being in his personal life.
    Yes but he was pretty

  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Not only is Lincoln the easy pick, he's a historical figure I can sort of identify with due to his struggle with depression. I feels ya there, Abe.

    Also, vampire hunter.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Not only is Lincoln the easy pick, he's a historical figure I can sort of identify with due to his struggle with depression. I feels ya there, Abe.

    Also, vampire hunter.

    That's just because it rolls off the tongue easier than Warren G. Harding, Vampire Hunter.

    If a movement doesn't have someone that can sit down opposite those in a position of power and strike a deal, how can that movement achieve success?
  • KruiteKruite Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Hands down Lincoln. Read Team of Rivals to get an idea of just what Lincoln faced both getting elected and while in office.

    It is to his actions and credit alone that mitigated the mutineers from running off with all the US army assets before the civil war even started.

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    Abe is the best argument in favor of letting politicians' views evolve.

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Also, anyone that puts Nixon in the bottom third of presidents doesn't really know much about presidents. Nixon was an ego maniac and had no qualms or compunction for breaking the law as president, but he also completely believed that the president couldn't break the law and definitely
    had to be battling some sort of mental health/substance abuse issues. But he also established the EPA, opened China, and had arguably our best Secretary of State, and not to mention what he accomplished at Breton woods, and managing to get the world to still use the dollar as the reserve currency after losing the gold standard. Nixon is top 33% for sure, even with his flaws, and an incredibly underrated president in his actual effectiveness.

    He "established" the EPA to preempt the Democratic Congress from going further with environmental laws, he was the only one who could open China thanks to his making the topic political poison for anyone else, and Kissinger is a fucking war criminal who should have been sent to The Hague long ago. Not to mention that he was also the architect of the Southern Strategy.

    Nixon was a horrible President.

    I'm fairly certain he was talking about William Rogers, not Henry Kissinger

    I don't know that I'd put Nixon in the top 33% but I think he deserves slightly more credit than he's generally given

    and if he'd enacted universal basic income like he wanted to before one of Ayn Rand's idiot students talked him out of it, we probably would have overlooked most everything else he did

  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    George Washington
    Heffling wrote: »
    Nobeard wrote: »
    Not only is Lincoln the easy pick, he's a historical figure I can sort of identify with due to his struggle with depression. I feels ya there, Abe.

    Also, vampire hunter.

    That's just because it rolls off the tongue easier than Warren G. Harding, Vampire Hunter Regulator.

  • ShortyShorty JUDGE BROSEF Registered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Well, let me clarify, I don't think Nixon was a good
    man, but he was a deeply effective politician and a good president for the United States, and one of the most qualified presidents we've ever had. He was just delusional, a drunk and an ego maniac. Good president and did more good than bad and got us out of Vietnam. Definitely a better president than carter or ford.

    no this is not something you get to credit to Nixon

  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Yeah you don't get credit for pulling us out of a war you intentionally prolonged for your own personal benefit.

    I didn't use the getting us out of the war as his selling point, it's just another part of the picture. I also don't see a consensus on the claim being made, but again, it's not beyond Nixon. He most definitely did what was best for Nixon at any given point. He was a terrible man, but a deeply efficient politician.

    The big feathers in the cap of Nixon for me, personally, are Bretton Woods (which I don't hear any of you addressing) and opening China.

    His Checkers response is also held as a watershed moment in politicos in America, and that is something he as the architect of.

    MadCaddy on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Thomas Jefferson
    wandering wrote: »
    The love of JFK is one of those things that has always baffled me. He brought us to the brink of nuclear war, got us stuck in vietnam, and was a pretty shit human being in his personal life.
    Yes but he was pretty

    I've often said that Bill Clinton - scandals and all - is what we would have gotten from JFK if he'd not been untimely martyr'd and if the media of the day wasn't so reverential of the President. Among other things, Nixon forever destroyed that veil around the office.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Abraham Lincoln
    Opening China and Bretton Woods were good. They're also perfect examples of the stopped clock phenomenon. They do not in any way outweigh the hundreds of thousands killed to get Nixon into power.

    joshofalltrades on
    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited July 2016
    Thomas Jefferson
    (forgive possible double-posting, but I wanted to separate these)

    I went for Jefferson in the poll, as a sentimental favorite; and despite all his now well-known flaws, I still believe he was a brilliant man and "fair for his day". But best? Having second thoughts on that now, but I can't seem to re-pick. I suppose it fits that, like the man himself, I'd be so conflicted.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades 地獄のようにかわいい あなたは嫉妬深いかRegistered User regular
    Abraham Lincoln
    (forgive possible double-posting, but I wanted to separate these)

    I went for Jefferson in the poll, as a sentimental favorite; and despite all his now well-known flaws, I still believe he was a brilliant man and "fair for his day". But best? Having second thoughts on that now, but I can't seem to re-pick. I suppose it fits that, like the man himself, I'd be so conflicted.

    It's okay, @PantsB likely approves

    ジェイムズ・ブラウンの好きな色は何ですか?
    青!
  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Opening China and Bretton Woods were good. They're also perfect examples of the stopped clock phenomenon. They do not in any way outweigh the hundreds of thousands killed to get Nixon into power.

    Bretton woods going wrong could've led to millions dying very easily...

  • MadCaddyMadCaddy Registered User regular
    Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
    Like, it's easy to look back now and think how quaint the gold standard was now, but it was a fundamental political and economic policy for thousands of years. Nixon upturned that. Good president, sorry guys.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Franklin D. Roosevelt
    MadCaddy wrote: »
    Yeah you don't get credit for pulling us out of a war you intentionally prolonged for your own personal benefit.

    I didn't use the getting us out of the war as his selling point, it's just another part of the picture. I also don't see a consensus on the claim being made, but again, it's not beyond Nixon. He most definitely did what was best for Nixon at any given point. He was a terrible man, but a deeply efficient politician.

    The big feathers in the cap of Nixon for me, personally, are Bretton Woods (which I don't hear any of you addressing) and opening China.

    His socks response is also held as a watershed moment in politicos in America, and that is something he as the architect of.

    It's not just "concensus" - we have records of Nixon's sabotage, thanks to Johnson having the US spying on the South Vietnamese government.

    And nobody is addressing Bretton Woods because it doesn't even begin to compare to the mound of gooseshit Nixon left us.

    XBL: Nox Aeternum / PSN: NoxAeternum / NN:NoxAeternum / Steam: noxaeternum
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