I always have to return to the idea that it doesnt matter what a child is in the womb, its what they will grow into that counts. A pregnancy is an incredible opportunity to create a human life. I dont think we should lose sight of that.
Good goth, your insipid platitudes are not only not an argument, they're infuriatingly huge non sequiturs.
Plus you ask "Why would a woman not want to have a baby/be pregnant?" because clearly all women are is breeding machines for whom there can be nothing finer than raising children. It's not THEIR place to have hopes, dreams or plans which for their lives which do not involve childcare. I find it hard t think of a more patronising point of view expressed on the board in recent memory, and we've had a veritable clowncar of abortion threads, racist, sexism and religion threads.
Congratulations! you know large words!
What I'm saying is that family is one of the most important things on this planet. A woman should feel priviledged to be able to bring another person into the world, just as a man should feel priviledged to support a woman and their children. You act like childcare is this terrible curse that should be avoided at all costs. Every parent I've talked to said that they wouldnt trade it for the world.
And I apologize for using so many non sequiturs, I just dont want to run through the same dated arguments page after page. God forbid I express a new opinion.
This just in, not everyone feels that having a family is the "most important things on the planet" and not all men and women feel that making babies is a super awesome thing to do just whenever the fuck it happens.
I love my kids, and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world, but I also recognize that just because I wanted kids and family doesn't mean that every other sexually active human being on the planet feels the same way, nor *should* they.
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
Parents of aborted "fetuses", etc:
Obviously this depends on the situation, but I think sometimes a potential child not living is a good thing. My sister lost her baby through complications, and because of her situation in life, if the baby had been born, she and her husband would be a lot worse off now. So I can see why you would want an abortion.
I don't think that abortion is without consequence. Chances are there will be "what if" feelings, or feelings of depression which affect parents (not just mothers, although mothers definitely more so, I would say) when faced with such a complex decision.
Have the parents "sinned" in the eyes of Christians/God? I don't want to make that call, but many others seem to want to. Myself, being a Christian, I wouldn't want a woman to get an abortion if a situation of an unwanted pregnancy came about, but it's not just my decision, obviously. I would feel that it would be the "wrong" thing to do, but I'm prone to doing "wrong" things as I'm human.
Tough call, really. I do like that something good can come out of such a rough situation with the whole stem cell research that has been going on, though.
A woman should feel priviledged to be able to bring another person into the world, just as a man should feel priviledged to support a woman and their children.
Black people should feel priviledged to work in the fields, and the white man should feel priviledged to feed black people and keep them in shitty tool-shed out back. What's that, you say there's a difference between forcing women into a career they didn't choose and might not want and forcing black people into a career they didn't choose and might not want? But of course you think so, because you're a sexist, not a racist.
I think more people should read Ursula Le Guin's "The Fisherwoman's Daughter." It's a short read as its part of “Dancing on the Edge of the World,†a collection of essays and speeches.
I personally think it should be required reading in all abortion arguments, probably because it’s beautifully written, wonderfully short, and refreshingly honest.
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
Parents of aborted "fetuses", etc:
Obviously this depends on the situation, but I think sometimes a potential child not living is a good thing. My sister lost her baby through complications, and because of her situation in life, if the baby had been born, she and her husband would be a lot worse off now. So I can see why you would want an abortion.
I don't think that abortion is without consequence. Chances are there will be "what if" feelings, or feelings of depression which affect parents (not just mothers, although mothers definitely more so, I would say) when faced with such a complex decision.
Have the parents "sinned" in the eyes of Christians/God? I don't want to make that call, but many others seem to want to. Myself, being a Christian, I wouldn't want a woman to get an abortion if a situation of an unwanted pregnancy came about, but it's not just my decision, obviously. I would feel that it would be the "wrong" thing to do, but I'm prone to doing "wrong" things as I'm human.
Tough call, really. I do like that something good can come out of such a rough situation with the whole stem cell research that has been going on, though.
You are the best Christian ever. You have single-handedly restored my faith in, well, faith.
Seriously, if you weren't so into the whole Jesus thing, I'd totally fellate you.
I mean, really -- what a fucking sane expression of your beliefs. You really just did make my day. Honestly, That boosted my mood so much.
And I'm really not being sarcastic, just so you know. That was beautiful. It actually gave me kind of a hard-on (I have a thing for rationality).
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
Parents of aborted "fetuses", etc:
Obviously this depends on the situation, but I think sometimes a potential child not living is a good thing. My sister lost her baby through complications, and because of her situation in life, if the baby had been born, she and her husband would be a lot worse off now. So I can see why you would want an abortion.
I don't think that abortion is without consequence. Chances are there will be "what if" feelings, or feelings of depression which affect parents (not just mothers, although mothers definitely more so, I would say) when faced with such a complex decision.
Have the parents "sinned" in the eyes of Christians/God? I don't want to make that call, but many others seem to want to. Myself, being a Christian, I wouldn't want a woman to get an abortion if a situation of an unwanted pregnancy came about, but it's not just my decision, obviously. I would feel that it would be the "wrong" thing to do, but I'm prone to doing "wrong" things as I'm human.
Tough call, really. I do like that something good can come out of such a rough situation with the whole stem cell research that has been going on, though.
You are the best Christian ever. You have single-handedly restored my faith in, well, faith.
Seriously, if you weren't so into the whole Jesus thing, I'd totally fellate you.
I mean, really -- what a fucking sane expression of your beliefs. You really just did make my day. Honestly, That boosted my mood so much.
And I'm really not being sarcastic, just so you know. That was beautiful. It actually gave me kind of a hard-on (I have a thing for rationality).
Wow. After the drug thread, I needed that.
There are actually more than a few Christians like him. You just don't notice them because they don't run around yelling at people (or blowing crowds of them up with home-made bombs) for doing things they don't personally think they should be doing them "cuz Jezus sed!"
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I think more people should read Ursula Le Guin's "The Fisherwoman's Daughter." It's a short read as its part of “Dancing on the Edge of the World,†a collection of essays and speeches.
I personally think it should be required reading in all abortion arguments, probably because it’s beautifully written, wonderfully short, and refreshingly honest.
The ones who walk away from Omelas is pretty thought provoking as well.
An old hypothetical scenario: A person is lying in bed in hospital, dying from kidney failure. Should you, a complete stranger, be legally forced to donate a kidney in order to save that person's life - a painful operation with a lengthy recovery period? Most would agree with me when I say "hell no".
So would someone mind telling me why the fuck you should be obligated to be a living life support to a fetus for nine months, followed by what amounts to an eighteen year recovery period of diminished quality of life? You're not expected to place another person's life above your own long term welfare, so why should you be expected to do so for a non-sapient bundle of cells? Even you classify the fetus as a person, for which there is very little justification, why should you be made to make sacrifices for it that you are not forced to make for actual walking talking people?
If my actions were directly responsible for that person lying in a bed in hospital, dying from kidney failure, then I will feel obligated to do what I could to help out.
Once again, going directly to the title of the thread - let's punish the people who do things we don't like!
I disagree. I don't think anyone is saying "I don't like sex" or even just the idea of people having it. But one should be aware of the consequences. I think it is valid to say that the difference (and problem) between the kidney and the abortion is that you are not directly responsible for the situation regarding the kidney.
That being said, I've always been pro-choice.
This is bullshit. If I was using a condom and it broke, maybe I'm just really unlucky. Yet apparently I should take responsibility? Well no, I was using the most effective non-chemical method of BC. What you want is to say "well you shouldn't have been having sex if you didn't want a baby, so haha you're having one now sucker"
I don't disagree with you. But it's not bullshit. I think the abortion route is a type of taking responsibility for those actions. While most people would see it as the easy way out, I disagree. I honestly don't feel that way because, quite frankly, I could be in that situation despite use of multiple type of birth control. Although, I do concede that some people would argue the suggested "ha, ha" attitude.
I think when people assume that not having the baby is an easy escape, they should remember how it not only forces the parents (who they feel should be punished) but forces another human being into a situation that is not in their best interest and for whom the critics have no responsibility toward.
PatboyX on
"lenny bruce is not afraid..."
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Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
I always have to return to the idea that it doesnt matter what a child is in the womb, its what they will grow into that counts. A pregnancy is an incredible opportunity to create a human life. I dont think we should lose sight of that.
Good goth, your insipid platitudes are not only not an argument, they're infuriatingly huge non sequiturs.
Plus you ask "Why would a woman not want to have a baby/be pregnant?" because clearly all women are is breeding machines for whom there can be nothing finer than raising children. It's not THEIR place to have hopes, dreams or plans which for their lives which do not involve childcare. I find it hard t think of a more patronising point of view expressed on the board in recent memory, and we've had a veritable clowncar of abortion threads, racist, sexism and religion threads.
Congratulations! you know large words!
What I'm saying is that family is one of the most important things on this planet. A woman should feel priviledged to be able to bring another person into the world, just as a man should feel priviledged to support a woman and their children. You act like childcare is this terrible curse that should be avoided at all costs. Every parent I've talked to said that they wouldnt trade it for the world.
And I apologize for using so many non sequiturs, I just dont want to run through the same dated arguments page after page. God forbid I express a new opinion.
Using "large words" is a negative thing now? :rotate:
I know that what you're saying is "Having children is the most awesomest thing ever to awesome in the history of awesome." Of course, this only serves to establish that you think having children is a grand thing, which even if we grant, says nothing about the legality or ethics of abortion nor the entities involved.
The fact that you think having children is wonderful thing does not demonstrate that having children is a onderful thing, that everyone should think it is a wonderful thing nor that everyone should be forced to go through with an unwanted pregnancy. I may as well argue that if you happen to catch a glimpse of Battlestar Galactica - the greatest show in the world - you be forced to watch the entire episode and you should feel happy for the privilege.
As for avoiding childcare at all cost, congratulations on completely failing to grasp the thrust of my critique. I was pointing out that your statements paint a picture of a regressive view of the role of women in society. You're making a nominative claim that women should love having babies no matter what, that this is their purpose and essentially denying the importance of their agency. Note this : You are denying their agency, you're advocating the oppression of women. This is a crappy thing to do.
And are you seriously suggesting that the view that having a child is a wonderful thing is at all novel, either within the confines of the abortion debate specifically, or society as a whole? HINT: It is not new, at all. The point of it being a non sequitur is that it was pointless to bring up, regardless of wether it's a new opinion or not.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
I agree that fornicators should be punished. Why should they get to have all the fun?
An old hypothetical scenario: A person is lying in bed in hospital, dying from kidney failure. Should you, a complete stranger, be legally forced to donate a kidney in order to save that person's life - a painful operation with a lengthy recovery period? Most would agree with me when I say "hell no".
So would someone mind telling me why the fuck you should be obligated to be a living life support to a fetus for nine months, followed by what amounts to an eighteen year recovery period of diminished quality of life? You're not expected to place another person's life above your own long term welfare, so why should you be expected to do so for a non-sapient bundle of cells? Even you classify the fetus as a person, for which there is very little justification, why should you be made to make sacrifices for it that you are not forced to make for actual walking talking people?
Eighteen year recovery? More like twenty-plus if you want your kid to go to college and can't afford to pay their rent.
I always have to return to the idea that it doesnt matter what a child is in the womb, its what they will grow into that counts. A pregnancy is an incredible opportunity to create a human life. I dont think we should lose sight of that.
Good goth, your insipid platitudes are not only not an argument, they're infuriatingly huge non sequiturs.
Plus you ask "Why would a woman not want to have a baby/be pregnant?" because clearly all women are is breeding machines for whom there can be nothing finer than raising children. It's not THEIR place to have hopes, dreams or plans which for their lives which do not involve childcare. I find it hard t think of a more patronising point of view expressed on the board in recent memory, and we've had a veritable clowncar of abortion threads, racist, sexism and religion threads.
Congratulations! you know large words!
What I'm saying is that family is one of the most important things on this planet. A woman should feel priviledged to be able to bring another person into the world, just as a man should feel priviledged to support a woman and their children. You act like childcare is this terrible curse that should be avoided at all costs. Every parent I've talked to said that they wouldnt trade it for the world.
And I apologize for using so many non sequiturs, I just dont want to run through the same dated arguments page after page. God forbid I express a new opinion.
I think I should point out that at our current rate of multiplication and consumption, we will require double the Earth's resources by 2050 if we want to survive as a species. So the fewer people who subscribe to your idiodic line of thinking, the better.
*I'm not saying we should stop procreating, and nothing against people who do. But it would be a good idea to slow down. There's too many humans on the planet already, the last thing we need is more.
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
I'm suprised that more hasn't been made of the issues abortion creates for religion as its something that is going to get you asking complicated question about the nature of a soul. If a soul can collect sin, and that sin is a product of my choices in life how can something with no mind have a soul? If a fetus has a soul that can exist in any real way in heaven it means that our souls and what we consider to be ourselves (our minds) are completely seperate things - so when I die, everything that I consider me is gone and some other entity is going to get reward or punished based on my actions?
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
I'm suprised that more hasn't been made of the issues abortion creates for religion as its something that is going to get you asking complicated question about the nature of a soul. If a soul can collect sin, and that sin is a product of my choices in life how can something with no mind have a soul? If a fetus has a soul that can exist in any real way in heaven it means that our souls and what we consider to be ourselves (our minds) are completely seperate things - so when I die, everything that I consider me is gone and some other entity is going to get reward or punished based on my actions?
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
Wait, they got rid of Limbo? Taht was an awesome place!
Aibyn on
"Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon..."
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
I'm suprised that more hasn't been made of the issues abortion creates for religion as its something that is going to get you asking complicated question about the nature of a soul. If a soul can collect sin, and that sin is a product of my choices in life how can something with no mind have a soul? If a fetus has a soul that can exist in any real way in heaven it means that our souls and what we consider to be ourselves (our minds) are completely seperate things - so when I die, everything that I consider me is gone and some other entity is going to get reward or punished based on my actions?
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
Wait, they got rid of Limbo? Taht was an awesome place!
Having the highest infant mortality rate, teen pregnancy rate, and child poverty rate is infinitely more likely to be caused by the fact that it's the poorest state in the nation than because they pursue anti-abortion policies. The stats for 2005 are also quite possibly thrown out of whack as a whole because a big fucking storm blew through there that year and rather throroughly fucked up the most populated area of the state, but, I mean, I'm sure you're right.
What about the link concerning Kenya? And the map there charting the high correlation between countries that ban abortion and countries with high infant mortality rates?
I suppose if someone threatened my way of life, I would have few problems with myself or others shooting them in the face.
If that guy was my drug addicted brother, and there was serious enough threat, I suppose it would be justifiable to also have him face shot. Ergo, daughter, son etc. To follow, I guess even without drugs involved, any serious threat should be dealt with.
I'm not sure if I support capital punishment for theivery or assault across the board. Killing someone for impacting one's ability to pay for a mortgage, or for commiting a crime that disables another from being able to keep thier job or relationship also seems harsh. If the circumstances were extreme enough though, I can see it.
What's interesting is that that decision isn't really up to me. I can certainly apply for punishment, have someone arrested etc, but the actual determination of what happens to that criminal is made by an appointed system of justice outside of my control. This is because when personally affected, my own deterrminations are prone to bias, and so it has been established that an impartial third party deals with crime, punishment, and another system determines restitution. This is true whether or not the criminal who effects me did so intentionally or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Whatever the case, I can't just go around terminating other people who create a negative impact on my life without being held accountable for my actions to a third party, representatives of my society who are trained and able to make decisions regarding these matters. There is a need for a system of checks and balances so that people are held accountable and responsible for the actions they take in their lives.
We hold people accountable for thier actions for a reason. It is those same reasons which dictate that a course of action may not always be our decision, but instead must conform to an established set of practices. Why should the abortion issue be segregated from this type of involvement?
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I suppose if someone threatened my way of life, I would have few problems with myself or others shooting them in the face.
If that guy was my drug addicted brother, and there was serious enough threat, I suppose it would be justifiable to also have him face shot. Ergo, daughter, son etc. To follow, I guess even without drugs involved, any serious threat should be dealt with.
I'm not sure if I support capital punishment for theivery or assault across the board. Killing someone for impacting one's ability to pay for a mortgage, or for commiting a crime that disables another from being able to keep thier job or relationship also seems harsh. If the circumstances were extreme enough though, I can see it.
What's interesting is that that decision isn't really up to me. I can certainly apply for punishment, have someone arrested etc, but the actual determination of what happens to that criminal is made by an appointed system of justice outside of my control. This is because when personally affected, my own deterrminations are prone to bias, and so it has been established that an impartial third party deals with crime, punishment, and another system determines restitution. This is true whether or not the criminal who effects me did so intentionally or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Whatever the case, I can't just go around terminating other people who create a negative impact on my life without being held accountable for my actions to a third party, representatives of my society who are trained and able to make decisions regarding these matters. There is a need for a system of checks and balances so that people are held accountable and responsible for the actions they take in their lives.
We hold people accountable for thier actions for a reason. It is those same reasons which dictate that a course of action may not always be our decision, but instead must conform to an established set of practices. Why should the abortion issue be segregated from this type of involvement?
Translation: lets not give women dominion over their bodies, and relegate them to the role of ambulatory fetus carrying device.
I suppose if someone threatened my way of life, I would have few problems with myself or others shooting them in the face.
If that guy was my drug addicted brother, and there was serious enough threat, I suppose it would be justifiable to also have him face shot. Ergo, daughter, son etc. To follow, I guess even without drugs involved, any serious threat should be dealt with.
I'm not sure if I support capital punishment for theivery or assault across the board. Killing someone for impacting one's ability to pay for a mortgage, or for commiting a crime that disables another from being able to keep thier job or relationship also seems harsh. If the circumstances were extreme enough though, I can see it.
What's interesting is that that decision isn't really up to me. I can certainly apply for punishment, have someone arrested etc, but the actual determination of what happens to that criminal is made by an appointed system of justice outside of my control. This is because when personally affected, my own deterrminations are prone to bias, and so it has been established that an impartial third party deals with crime, punishment, and another system determines restitution. This is true whether or not the criminal who effects me did so intentionally or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Whatever the case, I can't just go around terminating other people who create a negative impact on my life without being held accountable for my actions to a third party, representatives of my society who are trained and able to make decisions regarding these matters. There is a need for a system of checks and balances so that people are held accountable and responsible for the actions they take in their lives.
We hold people accountable for thier actions for a reason. It is those same reasons which dictate that a course of action may not always be our decision, but instead must conform to an established set of practices. Why should the abortion issue be segregated from this type of involvement?
"Someone." "People." Big difference. Not to mention that abortion is expensive and very hard on a woman. It's not like going through the drive-thru at McDonald's.
And it's worth mentioning that the exact system to which you are referring determined long ago that abortion should, in fact, be legal.
I always have to return to the idea that it doesnt matter what a child is in the womb, its what they will grow into that counts. A pregnancy is an incredible opportunity to create a human life. I dont think we should lose sight of that.
Good goth, your insipid platitudes are not only not an argument, they're infuriatingly huge non sequiturs.
Plus you ask "Why would a woman not want to have a baby/be pregnant?" because clearly all women are is breeding machines for whom there can be nothing finer than raising children. It's not THEIR place to have hopes, dreams or plans which for their lives which do not involve childcare. I find it hard t think of a more patronising point of view expressed on the board in recent memory, and we've had a veritable clowncar of abortion threads, racist, sexism and religion threads.
Congratulations! you know large words!
What I'm saying is that family is one of the most important things on this planet. A woman should feel priviledged to be able to bring another person into the world, just as a man should feel priviledged to support a woman and their children. You act like childcare is this terrible curse that should be avoided at all costs. Every parent I've talked to said that they wouldnt trade it for the world.
And I apologize for using so many non sequiturs, I just dont want to run through the same dated arguments page after page. God forbid I express a new opinion.
I think I should point out that at our current rate of multiplication and consumption, we will require double the Earth's resources by 2050 if we want to survive as a species. So the fewer people who subscribe to your idiodic line of thinking, the better.
*I'm not saying we should stop procreating, and nothing against people who do. But it would be a good idea to slow down. There's too many humans on the planet already, the last thing we need is more.
I think we should stop. The German people are dying out!
Let's Welcome to the Monkey House this bitch.
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
I'm suprised that more hasn't been made of the issues abortion creates for religion as its something that is going to get you asking complicated question about the nature of a soul. If a soul can collect sin, and that sin is a product of my choices in life how can something with no mind have a soul? If a fetus has a soul that can exist in any real way in heaven it means that our souls and what we consider to be ourselves (our minds) are completely seperate things - so when I die, everything that I consider me is gone and some other entity is going to get reward or punished based on my actions?
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
Not to me, really. I figure no one really knows "right" from "wrong" or "sin" from... "not sin"... until they're at least 5 years old, possibly even older. So essentially your "soul" is clean until you purposely do something you know is absolutely wrong. Obviously there are shades of this. Kids will steal cookies even though mommy told them not to, etc., but I think you have to have obtained a certain level of maturity before you can "sin".
This is the age where your parents bust out the "You know better than that" type phrases. That's where you know it's a wrong thing to do, but you do it anyways.
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
I'm suprised that more hasn't been made of the issues abortion creates for religion as its something that is going to get you asking complicated question about the nature of a soul. If a soul can collect sin, and that sin is a product of my choices in life how can something with no mind have a soul? If a fetus has a soul that can exist in any real way in heaven it means that our souls and what we consider to be ourselves (our minds) are completely seperate things - so when I die, everything that I consider me is gone and some other entity is going to get reward or punished based on my actions?
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
Not to me, really. I figure no one really knows "right" from "wrong" or "sin" from... "not sin"... until they're at least 5 years old, possibly even older. So essentially your "soul" is clean until you purposely do something you know is absolutely wrong. Obviously there are shades of this. Kids will steal cookies even though mommy told them not to, etc., but I think you have to have obtained a certain level of maturity before you can "sin".
This is the age where your parents bust out the "You know better than that" type phrases. That's where you know it's a wrong thing to do, but you do it anyways.
Man, what a tangent.
This sort of paints the soul as an empty vessel. And my understanding is that the commonly held belief would be the other way - body as vessel for soul...which is? Another vessel? But what is it? What are we defining soul as if it is going to be a primary reason against abortion?
I definately think it should be legal, but at the same time I think that considerationshould be mandated. Outside involvement is nessesary because of the unregulated fucktardedness of people.
It's one thing to put up the option of choice and say 'Everyone gets to choose! Whoohoo!' while at the same time ignoring that one simultaneously relegates that decision as prone to the most inane, unfounded and whimsical reasoning abilities of your common everyday yob.
Raped? Abort.
Unplanned? Abort.
Father took flight? Abort.
Dont wanna? Abort.
Got real drunk? Abort.
No condoms? Abort.
Seventh son of a seventh son? Abort.
Wanted a Libra and not a Pieces? Abort.
With abortion just on the table with no accountability, it opens up a new whole range of retarded. The ignorance surrounding what abortion is or does to you is astounding - people, especially those not to bright to begin with, focus on the result without thinking of the consequences.
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
Unless you're talking about the morning after pill, that's so wrong it's not even funny. Even if you are talking about the morning after pill, it's so wrong it's not even funny.
The ignorance surrounding what abortion is or does to you is astounding - people, especially those not to bright to begin with, focus on the result without thinking of the consequences.
That ignorance would quickly fade as the doctor sits you down and explains what he's going to do. And what are the consequences of an abortion? I can't think of anything else besides not being pregnant any more, plus either regret or relief depending on which way you happen to feel.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
Why are people on this board trying to treat abortion as if it isn't a huge decision?
Just for kicks, and because I like to see my name in threads, here's one Christian's perspective on abortion:
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
I'm suprised that more hasn't been made of the issues abortion creates for religion as its something that is going to get you asking complicated question about the nature of a soul. If a soul can collect sin, and that sin is a product of my choices in life how can something with no mind have a soul? If a fetus has a soul that can exist in any real way in heaven it means that our souls and what we consider to be ourselves (our minds) are completely seperate things - so when I die, everything that I consider me is gone and some other entity is going to get reward or punished based on my actions?
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
I challenge pro-life Christians to assume a position that actually isn't thoroughly hypocritical and self-indulgent. Either you're for abortion, you deny there being an afterlife or admit you're all a bunch of sick fucks that would rather bring unwanted children into a world of sin and suffering than send them straight to Heaven.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
Please, please stop treating Christianity (or any religion) as if it were monolithic.
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
Unless you're talking about the morning after pill, that's so wrong it's not even funny. Even if you are talking about the morning after pill, it's so wrong it's not even funny.
I was alluding to that yes. And that's first-gen pharm. Give it a bit and it will take far less of a toll than it does now. It's not the same as an abortion, in that it prevents attachment instead of killing off your fetal parasite or whatever, but it's already hit popular awareness as a possible alternative to contraceptives. Dangerous, dangerous ground.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
Unless you're talking about the morning after pill, that's so wrong it's not even funny. Even if you are talking about the morning after pill, it's so wrong it's not even funny.
I was alluding to that yes. And that's first-gen pharm. Give it a bit and it will take far less of a toll than it does now. It's not the same as an abortion, in that it prevents attachment instead of killing off your fetal parasite or whatever, but it's already hit popular awareness as a possible alternative to contraceptives. Dangerous, dangerous ground.
Why? It is an alternative to contraceptives, except really conscious people should use it in conjunction with others, especially since it doesn't prevent transmission.
If someone was using the morning-after pill frequently, they would be doing irreparable damage to their body and putting themselves through an absolutely agonizing ritual every time they did it.
Do you even know what the morning-after pill does?
Yeah, anyone who relies on the morning-after pill for their contraception is an idiot, but it has nothing to do with abortion. Especially since most of the time the woman won't be pregnant when she takes it.
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
Unless you're talking about the morning after pill, that's so wrong it's not even funny. Even if you are talking about the morning after pill, it's so wrong it's not even funny.
I was alluding to that yes. And that's first-gen pharm. Give it a bit and it will take far less of a toll than it does now. It's not the same as an abortion, in that it prevents attachment instead of killing off your fetal parasite or whatever, but it's already hit popular awareness as a possible alternative to contraceptives. Dangerous, dangerous ground.
It's not an alternative to contraceptives, though, and I don't think I've ever met anyone who thinks it is. And an argument that "we have to make abortion illegal because someday, someone might think the morning after pill is a good contraceptive" is every bit as retarded as it sounds.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
By the way, I meant alternative as in "it stops women from being pregnant", not "responsible way to keep women from being pregnant". Just like a spare tire is an alternative to a normal tire, but only an idiot would drive on one for extended periods.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
Unless you're talking about the morning after pill, that's so wrong it's not even funny. Even if you are talking about the morning after pill, it's so wrong it's not even funny.
I was alluding to that yes. And that's first-gen pharm. Give it a bit and it will take far less of a toll than it does now. It's not the same as an abortion, in that it prevents attachment instead of killing off your fetal parasite or whatever, but it's already hit popular awareness as a possible alternative to contraceptives. Dangerous, dangerous ground.
I assure you that taking the morning after pill is a lot LOT more hassle than slipping on a condom/diaphragm/whatever. From what i hear, that thing is like getting (chemically) punched in the ovaries for a day or two straight. Not to mention being a lot more expensive than the average condom. Any idiot who thinks "damn, out of condoms... hey, we'll just grab some Plan B tomorrow! Easy!" is not going to make that decision twice.
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This just in, not everyone feels that having a family is the "most important things on the planet" and not all men and women feel that making babies is a super awesome thing to do just whenever the fuck it happens.
I love my kids, and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world, but I also recognize that just because I wanted kids and family doesn't mean that every other sexually active human being on the planet feels the same way, nor *should* they.
Unborn fetuses/<insert other words to the same manner>: If they are aborted, and they truly were alive, then they led a sinless life (hard to sin when you don't have higher brain functions), and if they have a soul, that soul will go to heaven.
Parents of aborted "fetuses", etc:
Obviously this depends on the situation, but I think sometimes a potential child not living is a good thing. My sister lost her baby through complications, and because of her situation in life, if the baby had been born, she and her husband would be a lot worse off now. So I can see why you would want an abortion.
I don't think that abortion is without consequence. Chances are there will be "what if" feelings, or feelings of depression which affect parents (not just mothers, although mothers definitely more so, I would say) when faced with such a complex decision.
Have the parents "sinned" in the eyes of Christians/God? I don't want to make that call, but many others seem to want to. Myself, being a Christian, I wouldn't want a woman to get an abortion if a situation of an unwanted pregnancy came about, but it's not just my decision, obviously. I would feel that it would be the "wrong" thing to do, but I'm prone to doing "wrong" things as I'm human.
Tough call, really. I do like that something good can come out of such a rough situation with the whole stem cell research that has been going on, though.
Black people should feel priviledged to work in the fields, and the white man should feel priviledged to feed black people and keep them in shitty tool-shed out back. What's that, you say there's a difference between forcing women into a career they didn't choose and might not want and forcing black people into a career they didn't choose and might not want? But of course you think so, because you're a sexist, not a racist.
I personally think it should be required reading in all abortion arguments, probably because it’s beautifully written, wonderfully short, and refreshingly honest.
You are the best Christian ever. You have single-handedly restored my faith in, well, faith.
Seriously, if you weren't so into the whole Jesus thing, I'd totally fellate you.
I mean, really -- what a fucking sane expression of your beliefs. You really just did make my day. Honestly, That boosted my mood so much.
And I'm really not being sarcastic, just so you know. That was beautiful. It actually gave me kind of a hard-on (I have a thing for rationality).
Wow. After the drug thread, I needed that.
There are actually more than a few Christians like him. You just don't notice them because they don't run around yelling at people (or blowing crowds of them up with home-made bombs) for doing things they don't personally think they should be doing them "cuz Jezus sed!"
The ones who walk away from Omelas is pretty thought provoking as well.
I don't disagree with you. But it's not bullshit. I think the abortion route is a type of taking responsibility for those actions. While most people would see it as the easy way out, I disagree. I honestly don't feel that way because, quite frankly, I could be in that situation despite use of multiple type of birth control. Although, I do concede that some people would argue the suggested "ha, ha" attitude.
I think when people assume that not having the baby is an easy escape, they should remember how it not only forces the parents (who they feel should be punished) but forces another human being into a situation that is not in their best interest and for whom the critics have no responsibility toward.
Using "large words" is a negative thing now? :rotate:
I know that what you're saying is "Having children is the most awesomest thing ever to awesome in the history of awesome." Of course, this only serves to establish that you think having children is a grand thing, which even if we grant, says nothing about the legality or ethics of abortion nor the entities involved.
The fact that you think having children is wonderful thing does not demonstrate that having children is a onderful thing, that everyone should think it is a wonderful thing nor that everyone should be forced to go through with an unwanted pregnancy. I may as well argue that if you happen to catch a glimpse of Battlestar Galactica - the greatest show in the world - you be forced to watch the entire episode and you should feel happy for the privilege.
As for avoiding childcare at all cost, congratulations on completely failing to grasp the thrust of my critique. I was pointing out that your statements paint a picture of a regressive view of the role of women in society. You're making a nominative claim that women should love having babies no matter what, that this is their purpose and essentially denying the importance of their agency. Note this : You are denying their agency, you're advocating the oppression of women. This is a crappy thing to do.
And are you seriously suggesting that the view that having a child is a wonderful thing is at all novel, either within the confines of the abortion debate specifically, or society as a whole? HINT: It is not new, at all. The point of it being a non sequitur is that it was pointless to bring up, regardless of wether it's a new opinion or not.
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. If you can't join 'em, PUNISH THEM!
*I'm not saying we should stop procreating, and nothing against people who do. But it would be a good idea to slow down. There's too many humans on the planet already, the last thing we need is more.
So yeah, soul at conception is a really bizarre concept for me.
Wait, they got rid of Limbo? Taht was an awesome place!
-- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
The Pope can do that? Shit, I wanna be the Pope.
If that guy was my drug addicted brother, and there was serious enough threat, I suppose it would be justifiable to also have him face shot. Ergo, daughter, son etc. To follow, I guess even without drugs involved, any serious threat should be dealt with.
I'm not sure if I support capital punishment for theivery or assault across the board. Killing someone for impacting one's ability to pay for a mortgage, or for commiting a crime that disables another from being able to keep thier job or relationship also seems harsh. If the circumstances were extreme enough though, I can see it.
What's interesting is that that decision isn't really up to me. I can certainly apply for punishment, have someone arrested etc, but the actual determination of what happens to that criminal is made by an appointed system of justice outside of my control. This is because when personally affected, my own deterrminations are prone to bias, and so it has been established that an impartial third party deals with crime, punishment, and another system determines restitution. This is true whether or not the criminal who effects me did so intentionally or just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Whatever the case, I can't just go around terminating other people who create a negative impact on my life without being held accountable for my actions to a third party, representatives of my society who are trained and able to make decisions regarding these matters. There is a need for a system of checks and balances so that people are held accountable and responsible for the actions they take in their lives.
We hold people accountable for thier actions for a reason. It is those same reasons which dictate that a course of action may not always be our decision, but instead must conform to an established set of practices. Why should the abortion issue be segregated from this type of involvement?
And it's worth mentioning that the exact system to which you are referring determined long ago that abortion should, in fact, be legal.
I think we should stop. The German people are dying out!
Let's Welcome to the Monkey House this bitch.
Not to me, really. I figure no one really knows "right" from "wrong" or "sin" from... "not sin"... until they're at least 5 years old, possibly even older. So essentially your "soul" is clean until you purposely do something you know is absolutely wrong. Obviously there are shades of this. Kids will steal cookies even though mommy told them not to, etc., but I think you have to have obtained a certain level of maturity before you can "sin".
This is the age where your parents bust out the "You know better than that" type phrases. That's where you know it's a wrong thing to do, but you do it anyways.
Man, what a tangent.
This sort of paints the soul as an empty vessel. And my understanding is that the commonly held belief would be the other way - body as vessel for soul...which is? Another vessel? But what is it? What are we defining soul as if it is going to be a primary reason against abortion?
It's one thing to put up the option of choice and say 'Everyone gets to choose! Whoohoo!' while at the same time ignoring that one simultaneously relegates that decision as prone to the most inane, unfounded and whimsical reasoning abilities of your common everyday yob.
Raped? Abort.
Unplanned? Abort.
Father took flight? Abort.
Dont wanna? Abort.
Got real drunk? Abort.
No condoms? Abort.
Seventh son of a seventh son? Abort.
Wanted a Libra and not a Pieces? Abort.
With abortion just on the table with no accountability, it opens up a new whole range of retarded. The ignorance surrounding what abortion is or does to you is astounding - people, especially those not to bright to begin with, focus on the result without thinking of the consequences.
I'm all for choice, but we're already at the point where you can pick up a McBortion on the way home from your night of being stupid. There is something definately off about that.
That ignorance would quickly fade as the doctor sits you down and explains what he's going to do. And what are the consequences of an abortion? I can't think of anything else besides not being pregnant any more, plus either regret or relief depending on which way you happen to feel.
Ignorance? Anyone who doesn't think it's a huge, life-altering decision (for the vast majority of women) needs to get their head checked.
XBL : lJesse Custerl | MWO: Jesse Custer | Best vid ever. | 2nd best vid ever.
'Cut and dry,' in fact, on so many levels, is about as far from the truth as you can get re: abortion and the details.
I challenge pro-life Christians to assume a position that actually isn't thoroughly hypocritical and self-indulgent. Either you're for abortion, you deny there being an afterlife or admit you're all a bunch of sick fucks that would rather bring unwanted children into a world of sin and suffering than send them straight to Heaven.
I was alluding to that yes. And that's first-gen pharm. Give it a bit and it will take far less of a toll than it does now. It's not the same as an abortion, in that it prevents attachment instead of killing off your fetal parasite or whatever, but it's already hit popular awareness as a possible alternative to contraceptives. Dangerous, dangerous ground.
Why? It is an alternative to contraceptives, except really conscious people should use it in conjunction with others, especially since it doesn't prevent transmission.
Do you even know what the morning-after pill does?
I assure you that taking the morning after pill is a lot LOT more hassle than slipping on a condom/diaphragm/whatever. From what i hear, that thing is like getting (chemically) punched in the ovaries for a day or two straight. Not to mention being a lot more expensive than the average condom. Any idiot who thinks "damn, out of condoms... hey, we'll just grab some Plan B tomorrow! Easy!" is not going to make that decision twice.