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USA Presidential Election 2016: Straight Outta Breitbart

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    -Tal-Tal Registered User regular
    When the milennials have more money they can theoretically afford to spend more of it

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    LabelLabel Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    The labor required to create goods and services is only one of many components that goes into the overall cost of creating that thing.

    doubling the takehome pay of an employee does not double the cost of what that employee creates.

    Having more liquid cash can help people pay for their own existence more efficiently.

    Living their life with more economic efficiency can enable individual people to live with larger net liquid income than the pure increase of wage.

    Across a whole society, people living more economically efficiently can change a contracting economy into a growing economy



    at least, i think anyway. i dunno i'm just a guy.

    Label on
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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    ideally, minimum wage would allow an adult to support themselves with one job
    by support, I mean afford rent, food, medical bills, and other needs as well as enabling money saving

    however, without strict economic rules in place
    greedy folk will jack up their prices because they have an 'excuse' to do so

    this ain't the sort of thing that works with half-measures

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    PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    It's so stupid that we have such a goods and services based economy and yet we have all this austerity. It's not like the rich are boosting our economy by buying more food than a retail store full of workers eats or extra subscriptions to NetFlix.

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    UnbreakableVowUnbreakableVow Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    however, without strict economic rules in place
    greedy folk will jack up their prices because they have an 'excuse' to do so

    This is precisely my fear summed up better than I could do it

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    I really like the idea of a fifteen buck minimum wage! But Capitalism is an asshole like that.

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    It's really odd to see people use dramatic price hikes, due to an absolute minority of US workers finally getting a salary not on par with developing countries, as an argument to continue the status quo, or keeping close to it?

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    turtleantturtleant Gunpla Dad is the best.Registered User regular
    I don't think that's what people are saying.

    More that helping those people will probably end up not actually doing that much good because of predatory pricing changes.

    And while it might seem selfish, if bumping minimum wage up to $15 an hour would lead to higher prices on everything, the person currently making $13-15 an hour and doing ok now kind of has a legitimate concern. Because I really do not see a lot of businesses raising their current employees pay to keep it equally as high above the new minimum wage as the old.

    I still think they need to raise the minimum wage, for sure. It's just not going to be all sunshine and roses.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Consumer protection laws covering a limit on the increase of prices for staple goods would do that but I don't believe predatory price increases would necessarily occur if anti-local monopoly laws were more effective and even if competition kept prices down.

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    DaMoonRulzDaMoonRulz Mare ImbriumRegistered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
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    Newt Gingrich runs the zoo on the Moon while Putin runs the K9 shelter.

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    Donovan PuppyfuckerDonovan Puppyfucker A dagger in the dark is worth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered User regular
    The thing about raising the minimum wage is that in the vast majority of cases it doesn't have the knock-on effect of price increases that people assume it will. Fast food workers having their hourly pay suddenly double will not double the price of a big mac for instance, because wages is only a small part of the cost of running a McDonalds restaurant. The one I worked in for four years paid more on franchise fees than it did wages, the power bill was more than the wage ticket, hell they paid more in taxes than they did in wages. If you'd doubled OUR wages the price of a happy meal would have only gone up a few cents, because the few seconds of labour it takes to make the meal only accounts for a portion of the cost and besides, the markup was something like 600% of the meal total cost anyway. I remember a cheeseburger costing 22 cents to make and serve and retailing for about $2.

    A way to make the minimum wage increase easier onnsmall businesses that operate differently and thus cannot afford to basically absorb the labour price increase would be to reduce payroll tax for small companies in that situation.

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    BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »

    Either way I still would live in New Mexico :rotate:

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    UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    The thing about raising the minimum wage is that in the vast majority of cases it doesn't have the knock-on effect of price increases that people assume it will. Fast food workers having their hourly pay suddenly double will not double the price of a big mac for instance, because wages is only a small part of the cost of running a McDonalds restaurant. The one I worked in for four years paid more on franchise fees than it did wages, the power bill was more than the wage ticket, hell they paid more in taxes than they did in wages. If you'd doubled OUR wages the price of a happy meal would have only gone up a few cents, because the few seconds of labour it takes to make the meal only accounts for a portion of the cost and besides, the markup was something like 600% of the meal total cost anyway. I remember a cheeseburger costing 22 cents to make and serve and retailing for about $2.

    A way to make the minimum wage increase easier onnsmall businesses that operate differently and thus cannot afford to basically absorb the labour price increase would be to reduce payroll tax for small companies in that situation.

    and considering you're taking in more in income tax at that point, you could likely make that payroll tax reduction revenue-neutral

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    There may be an initial price increase, but there would also be competitive pricing where someone prices up only the few cents it takes, and then when everyone starts going there, most would follow suit.

    At the very least, Amazon and the like would stand in the way. Because they could.

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    BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
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    Librarian's ghostLibrarian's ghost Librarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSpork Registered User regular
    Wait, if the 1848 treaty is revoked does that put us officially at war with Mexico? That was the peace treaty that ended the war.

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    RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I think the biggest implication that hasn't been rendered moot by 170 years of laws and treaties would be Mexico now considers the 1836 border to be its territory again.

    528px-Mapa_de_Mexico_1835_1.PNG

    No chance of even enforcing those claims, but it's a rhetorical stunt more than anything else.

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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    Increasing the minimum wage generally either doesn't hurt employment much or may even slightly improve it marginally based on most economic research. There are some studies that disagree but most reflect that.

    The difference with $15 is is a radical change for most of the country. Even in NY and CA, it represents a 66% increase over 4/5 years (NYC and otherwise) and a 50% increase over six years. Those are radical increases, even for high CoL states. Its an open question whether it will hurt the economies there to have a big swing like that, but there's some reasonable hope that it can be absorbed, which may in tern inflate other wages without kicking off inflation or increasing unemployment to harshly.

    The real issue is in places like Mississippi. If you take 10% of wage earners and double their salary, that's not a gentle change. The median hourly wage in Mississippi is $13 dollars an hour. Most jobs would require a substantial increase in wages and there isn't a lot of spare capital in Mississippi to absorb those changes.

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    PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »

    They endorsed W x2, McCain and Romney. They'll probably end up endorsing Johnson, but still.

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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    I think the biggest implication that hasn't been rendered moot by 170 years of laws and treaties would be Mexico now considers the 1836 border to be its territory again.

    528px-Mapa_de_Mexico_1835_1.PNG

    No chance of even enforcing those claims, but it's a rhetorical stunt more than anything else.

    to be fair, it would presumably speed up the overall goal of a taco truck at every corner

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    DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist I swear! Registered User regular
    If I know Trump; it would probably lead to war with Mexico.

    "Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
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    PlatyPlaty Registered User regular
    I think the biggest implication that hasn't been rendered moot by 170 years of laws and treaties would be Mexico now considers the 1836 border to be its territory again.

    528px-Mapa_de_Mexico_1835_1.PNG

    No chance of even enforcing those claims, but it's a rhetorical stunt more than anything else.

    The bill was proposed by a single Mexican senator

    And it only calls for a "review" of current bilateral treaties, more importantly it would make it illegal for Mexico to fund the wall

    I do not think anyone is really making plans to restore the old borders

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Yeah it's just a manifestation of the anger in Mexico vs Trump.

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    Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    Minimum wage here in Wyoming is still like 7.25

    I'd take $12 in a heartbeat

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    POKÉMON MASTER WT SHERMANPOKÉMON MASTER WT SHERMAN i can make this march and i will make georgia howlRegistered User regular
    I think the biggest implication that hasn't been rendered moot by 170 years of laws and treaties would be Mexico now considers the 1836 border to be its territory again.

    528px-Mapa_de_Mexico_1835_1.PNG

    No chance of even enforcing those claims, but it's a rhetorical stunt more than anything else.

    The bill was proposed by a single Mexican senator

    And it only calls for a "review" of current bilateral treaties, more importantly it would make it illegal for Mexico to fund the wall

    I do not think anyone is really making plans to restore the old borders
    well maybe they should. dream big, mexico

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    JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Interesting graph here:

    FT_15.05.20_minWage_1938_2014.png

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    intropintrop Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Looking at wages vs. inflation but failing to factor in productivity gains (and myriad other factors) is comparing apples to oranges. The average worker gets a lot more done and makes their employer a lot more money per hour (even inflation-adjusted) than in the past. So your $7.25 will buy you the same number of hamburgers as it did in 1968 -- your employer is making ~ 2.3x more "stuff" per hour these days and pocketing that difference. (Series PRS88003093 data pulled just as an example. Other metrics like nonfarm output, etc., have approximately the same gains.)

    When the standards of living for the top 20% go up, up, up but go down, down, down for the bottom 80%, despite them paying to raise their skill levels, that's real bad for stable government.

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    a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    edited September 2016
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Interesting graph here:

    FT_15.05.20_minWage_1938_2014.png

    I could have sworn I've seen other graphs in the past that have some of the adjusted spikes closer to $10, but yeah.

    I think the most reasonable plan for now is to federally phase in a $10/hr wage over a few years and then tie it to whatever cost index makes the most sense, adjusting every year or two. Let the high-cost areas pass their own as-needed like is happening now.
    Looking at wages vs. inflation but failing to factor in productivity gains (and myriad other factors) is comparing apples to oranges. The average worker gets a lot more done and makes their employer a lot more money per hour (even inflation-adjusted) than in the past. So your $7.25 will buy you the same number of hamburgers as it did in 1968 -- your employer is making ~ 2.3x more "stuff" per hour these days and pocketing that difference. (Series PRS88003093 data pulled just as an example. Other metrics like nonfarm output, etc., have approximately the same gains.)

    When the standards of living for the top 20% go up, up, up but go down, down, down for the bottom 80%, despite them paying to raise their skill levels, that's real bad for stable government.
    Sure, but you have a better chance of getting a new RBG appointed to the SCOTUS with a Republican Senate than passing a $16.68/hr minimum wage.

    a5ehren on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Heh, Fox News is settling with Gretchen Carlson for $20 million.

    I hope every other woman Ailes tortured there brings a suit for at least as much.

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    DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Didn't a similar productivity to wage gap for the workers lead to Marxism and socialism and huge strikes and riots and stuff in the US and elsewhere during the late 1800s and early 1900s?

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    a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Didn't a similar productivity to wage gap for the workers lead to Marxism and socialism and huge strikes and riots and stuff in the US and elsewhere during the late 1800s and early 1900s?

    Combined with several other things (appalling safety conditions being a big one), but yeah that was a factor.

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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    so CNN just came out with a poll that has Trump 2 points ahead of Clinton, which means it's PANIC TIME

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    BroloBrolo Broseidon Lord of the BroceanRegistered User regular
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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    so CNN just came out with a poll that has Trump 2 points ahead of Clinton, which means it's PANIC TIME
    CAN'T STUMP THE TRUMP

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    SyphonBlueSyphonBlue The studying beaver That beaver sure loves studying!Registered User regular
    Brolo wrote: »

    HOW IS THIS SO FUCKING CLOSE

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    OmnipotentBagelOmnipotentBagel floof Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Brolo wrote: »

    HOW IS THIS SO FUCKING CLOSE

    People trend towards intellectual laziness and are, by-and-large, content to accept media narratives and/or pick one or two issues to live or die by and ignore the big picture.

    Also, it's fucking September.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Because the majority of people vote on party affiliation, always have and always will.

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    GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    ideally, minimum wage would allow an adult to support themselves with one job
    by support, I mean afford rent, food, medical bills, and other needs as well as enabling money saving

    however, without strict economic rules in place
    greedy folk will jack up their prices because they have an 'excuse' to do so

    this ain't the sort of thing that works with half-measures
    Folks don't need an excuse to jack up prices. Any economic entity should be expected to do anything to maximize profits regardless of ethics. Basically, unless there's specifically some reason why a business can't raise prices you should expect them to do so.

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    GundiGundi Serious Bismuth Registered User regular
    Also I can't imagine Mexico would attempt to nullify that treaty because it would just make the Mexican central government look like fools at a time when they need credibility more than ever.

This discussion has been closed.