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Legend of [Phalla] - Game Over. The Village Wins.

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  • premiumpremium Registered User regular
    The village being quiet made the last few days really drag on

    38thDoecorvidae
  • JusticeforPlutoJusticeforPluto Registered User regular
    This Villiage network is so grudged in my book.

  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Premium was eternal network head from day 2 on, so I assume he ran things in PMs based on what he asked me to do.

    2nding 38th's observations. For the mechanics a village gets, the Mafia should get mechanics to influence things their way (not necessarily exact opposite, but something so things have a balance)

    I don't want to hammer it further, but as I said, a bad hand combined with the mechanics as they stood doomed us.

    Matev on
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  • premiumpremium Registered User regular
    @ the mafia
    I actually never figured out that the mafia couldnt trade/get pieces.
    I had a duplicate order or 2 for people to pass triforce pieces around because people were being inactive which managed to conceal that from me

  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    This Villiage network is so grudged in my book.

    Whether it makes me more or less of a grudge target to you, I was never involved in the network proper, the only actual advice I got from premium was to attack Martoss on the last night, I voted you over Sir Fab purely out of my shitty shitty gut instincts. :P

    I mean, both of you were bad choices, but still. I thought the mafia actually did really good at keeping good cover this game, despite their handicaps. I never suspected any of you outside of Matev at the end.

    Raiden333 on
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  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    I figured it was something like that when you didn't come after me hard for not trading last night.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
    38thDoe
  • premiumpremium Registered User regular
    Matev wrote: »
    I figured it was something like that when you didn't come after me hard for not trading last night.

    Spreadsheet says that I had you and preda making the exact same trade so that mamawolf would be guaranteed a full set

  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    Ah my crazy theory that all of the mafia voted for MrT in a day 1 sacrifice doesn't seem to be the case. How disappointing!

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Finally.

    So I am going to sound angry, aggressive, and that's because I am, but don't take it like it.

    I feel like a broken record because I said this in Burnage's game but IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A BATTLE MECHANIC IN YOUR GAME, FOCUS ON THAT!!!!!!!!

    The HP/ATK thing feel like it was tacked on and no one ever attacked us, they were too busy exploring. And what really made me mad was that as a mafia, there was nothing we could do to effect the exploring part of the game. Sure, someone could be tricked to giving us TriForce Pieces, but really, with a Vig, a Guard, and a Straight Seer, you wouldn't do that unless the Vig said so. We couldn't steal pieces (although I lied about there being a Wall Master who could) and worst, the mafia were just normal links in all but name. We would have needed everyone to kill one vanillager and losing three mafia in that many days was painful.

    The mafia could have only won this game if we had killed Premium day 1 and the Seer day 2, thus keeping the village network from ever forming. When I realized that Day 2 (or really once Premium called his kill) I lost any desire to play.

    If you ever decide to do a HP game again, then remember that the mafia needs to be able to play the whole game, and the village needs a reason to play the whole game.
    • Don't have Straight Vigs, Seers, or Guards in HP games. Give one player an ATK boost, Guards who can stop X damage, and Action Seers. No one, not the mafia, the village, or Serial Killer should ever have a straight up kill. No one needs to be automatically confirmed by a seer. Throw Thralls and Millers in there and keep the confusion going.
    • If you want players to explore, quest, do extra shit, then the mafia needs to be able to effect that in some way. In this game, having Bosses with Boss Powers would have been great. Wall Masters that stopped people from exploring dungeons, Like Likes that can eat shields, ect. Being a Boss and having the same stats as a normal Link was depressing.
    • If the village can grab and use it, so can the mafia. Not being able to collect Triforce Pieces and pretty much just needing to grab the sword for a +1 ATK boost that everyone got really got under my skin. We didn't need to explore but until someone figured out where the items were, we were weak and lost. Not having a way to give other people Triforce pieces mean we could trick our ways into networks, so we were double boned.

    I think what also got me was that the village would win even if we killed the Vig and Seer because before we could kill everyone, someone(s) would have been able to collect all the pieces alone and gone against Gannon.

    Honestly, this was a terrible game, which I mean as no offense to you, @AustinP0027 but it makes me curious on what "balancing" that @MrBlarney did because I'm sure even he could have spotted the unpowerness of the mafia before the game when live. Sorry that it sounds mean, but that's how I feel. This game needed more time in the oven because it was underbaked.

    corvidaeRaiden333Auralynx
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    One mechanic I expected as a vanillager, that might have helped, would be that the mafia would be able to pick a particular dungeon to "defend" and anyone exploring that dungeon would take damage.

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  • Ghostly ClockworkGhostly Clockwork Registered User regular
    I liked this, had a good time with it, do wish I could've talked to more people though. Thanks for running it!

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  • BrodyBrody The Watch The First ShoreRegistered User regular
    @AustinP0027 It was a fun game, thanks for running. Also, I fucking lived. The whole game. Just by saying anything ever pretty much.

    "I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."

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  • corvidaecorvidae Registered User regular
    I felt pretty bad for the bad guys. I was expecting some sort of "counterfeit" triforce piece mechanic. It kind of slipped under the radar, but I vaguely hinted to premium on day 2 that a triforce trading program would verify the village pretty fast. Kind of surprised that no one else brought this up in thread.

    But at the same time, the village's early success kind of made every quietly complacent to trust the net head.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Now, into Host Thoughts:


    Inspired by Ahava, I started a host diary, but got sick over the weekend and didn’t keep doing it. It was mostly me wondering if discrider was actually mafia and somehow I just didn’t know it,

    :rotate:

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  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Now, into Host Thoughts:


    Inspired by Ahava, I started a host diary, but got sick over the weekend and didn’t keep doing it. It was mostly me wondering if discrider was actually mafia and somehow I just didn’t know it,

    :rotate:

    That reminds me! On Day 1, I was soft-networking with both Discrider and Obifett.

    And then both of them died night 1.

    That's at least partially responsible for why I went totally quiet for the game.

    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • MrBlarneyMrBlarney Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Hi guys. Or, uh, hi, @Grunt's Ghosts. Yeah, so I didn't get to put much into the game as I would have liked, there was a good two-week period where I wasn't able to put in any input, and I wasn't able to focus in on the areas that really needed more work. Yes, I did have the balance of exploration vs. attacking on my mind. Yes, I knew that some number work would be needed to make sure the player goals were interesting. No, I didn't get to do much of that. My main contributions were to set up the progression of damage and the health available to players. I didn't get to check the rest of it. Sorry that the game ended up being so imbalanced.

    EDIT: Yeah, super serious apologies here. I really should have put more time into poring over things, trying to find time to work on it, delaying it to run numbers. Should have voiced concerns a bit more loudly and more concretely. Too many 'should haves' around, but what is to be done? Just do better next time. I still want to run games, but I am finding it harder to find time to work on them. Makes me feel like I'm getting too old for this. :P Sorry for being a bit dramatic.

    MrBlarney on
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  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    I'm concerned that scathing reviews of games is going to deter people from wanting to host and run games. During this game people mentioned that the manner in which people disagreed with their votes made them afraid to voice their opinions. This seems way more harsh. I think you need to dial it back @Grunt's Ghosts

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  • Zombie HeroZombie Hero Registered User regular
    Thanks for the game, Austin. I had fun running around trying to figure out what was in all of the dungeons.

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    Gizzy wrote: »
    I'm concerned that scathing reviews of games is going to deter people from wanting to host and run games. During this game people mentioned that the manner in which people disagreed with their votes made them afraid to voice their opinions. This seems way more harsh. I think you need to dial it back @Grunt's Ghosts

    I said that I don't mean it to be harsh or mean, but I am upset that this was the second game in a row that's had advertised battle phalla and hasn't. Worst, this game was stupidly unbalanced to the point that the mafia lost before the game started. It's frustrating to play a game and know from the beginning that you aren't going to win. It's like working a job that you know you aren't going to get paid for. I wrote about a dozen times a post just outing me and getting killed because I knew it but didn't want to let down my teammates. I even suggested it yesterday when the TriForce was built. I didn't just bitch, I also gave ways this could have been better.

    Again, I'm not trying to be mean. I know how I sound when I write, most of my text messages get answered with "Are you mad at me?" I want Austin and other people to run games, but I can't say that this was a good game. Thanks Austin for running this.

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Gizzy wrote: »
    I'm concerned that scathing reviews of games is going to deter people from wanting to host and run games. During this game people mentioned that the manner in which people disagreed with their votes made them afraid to voice their opinions. This seems way more harsh. I think you need to dial it back @Grunt's Ghosts

    I said that I don't mean it to be harsh or mean, but I am upset that this was the second game in a row that's had advertised battle phalla and hasn't. Worst, this game was stupidly unbalanced to the point that the mafia lost before the game started. It's frustrating to play a game and know from the beginning that you aren't going to win. It's like working a job that you know you aren't going to get paid for. I wrote about a dozen times a post just outing me and getting killed because I knew it but didn't want to let down my teammates. I even suggested it yesterday when the TriForce was built. I didn't just bitch, I also gave ways this could have been better.

    Again, I'm not trying to be mean. I know how I sound when I write, most of my text messages get answered with "Are you mad at me?" I want Austin and other people to run games, but I can't say that this was a good game. Thanks Austin for running this.

    If playing phalla feels like a job, then its time to shift your focus or take a break. This is a game. It should be fun. And when the stakes are against the player, its up to the player to step up to the challenge. Many video games are imbalanced or harder for the player than they should be and people take it as a challenge. Imbalance against a player can make losses suck less and wins feel more earned. In fact, if the odds are stacked against you, take that as an opportunity to try out crazy strats you've never tried. There are all types of ways to still have fun in what feels like is an unwinnable game.

    Lets be real here: the only person working during a phalla is the host. Everyone else is playing a game, made by the host, for their enjoyment.

    It was pretty clear that Austin was exploring some new mechanics and of course there were gonna be hiccups/speedbumps. Yes, its important (and very often wanted by hosts) that we give feedback on ways mechanics can be improved. But its just as important to realize that amidst the criticism and feedback we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the host spent an inordinate amount of time for our enjoyment.

    ObiFett on
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  • MrBlarneyMrBlarney Registered User regular
    I want to also say that, despite the harshness of the critique, Grunt's Ghosts still put together a good list of principles that got missed in the rush of putting the game up to press. I still feel super bad for not covering all of the bases, especially with my experience with games with mechanics like this one, but I can also recognize the usefulness of seeing these points put out there. A little bit of imbalance is fine. Too much imbalance is disheartening. Hosts need to put in the necessary efforts and planning to make that happen, so hosts still have plenty of responsibility. But I also hope that there is some forgiveness and understanding when things don't work out as planned.

    I'm mostly okay with Grunt's Ghosts comments now, but I'm also the kind of person that doesn't like holding on to grudges too much. It just takes too much energy to maintain that kind of negativity. I understand where he's coming from, understand what he's trying to say. Good enough for me.

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  • Grunt's GhostsGrunt's Ghosts Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    Gizzy wrote: »
    I'm concerned that scathing reviews of games is going to deter people from wanting to host and run games. During this game people mentioned that the manner in which people disagreed with their votes made them afraid to voice their opinions. This seems way more harsh. I think you need to dial it back @Grunt's Ghosts

    I said that I don't mean it to be harsh or mean, but I am upset that this was the second game in a row that's had advertised battle phalla and hasn't. Worst, this game was stupidly unbalanced to the point that the mafia lost before the game started. It's frustrating to play a game and know from the beginning that you aren't going to win. It's like working a job that you know you aren't going to get paid for. I wrote about a dozen times a post just outing me and getting killed because I knew it but didn't want to let down my teammates. I even suggested it yesterday when the TriForce was built. I didn't just bitch, I also gave ways this could have been better.

    Again, I'm not trying to be mean. I know how I sound when I write, most of my text messages get answered with "Are you mad at me?" I want Austin and other people to run games, but I can't say that this was a good game. Thanks Austin for running this.

    If playing phalla feels like a job, then its time to shift your focus or take a break. This is a game. It should be fun. And when the stakes are against the player, its up to the player to step up to the challenge. Many video games are imbalanced or harder for the player than they should be and people take it as a challenge. Imbalance against a player can make losses suck less and wins feel more earned. In fact, if the odds are stacked against you, take that as an opportunity to try out crazy strats you've never tried. There are all types of ways to still have fun in what feels like is an unwinnable game.

    Lets be real here: the only person working during a phalla is the host. Everyone else is playing a game, made by the host, for their enjoyment.

    It was pretty clear that Austin was exploring some new mechanics and of course there were gonna be hiccups/speedbumps. Yes, its important (and very often wanted by hosts) that we give feedback on ways mechanics can be improved. But its just as important to realize that amidst the criticism and feedback we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the host spent an inordinate amount of time for our enjoyment.

    I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that the frustration of knowing that this game was unwinnable from the start was like knowing you are working a job that you aren't going to get paid for. You keep wondering what's the point of playing this game. Phalla isn't feeling like a job to me. This game was feeling like a uphill battle on a escalator going down.

    And while I appreciate Austin's work, I wish that he had ran the game in his head before he when live with it. As I'm working on this WoW Legion game, I'm running and rerunning the classes in my head, I'm looking at what I'm doing and how the other classes are doing and balancing them out. I've gotten 3 classes done and I've reworked one of them from the ground up because I saw how overpowered it was. There are 12 classes in WoW. By the time I've written out all of them, I'm sure I'll have redone each of them two or three times.

    I think Austin's problem with this game is something he touched on, that his game before the mafia was overpowered and he was afraid of repeating that so he didn't try to give the mafia any real power. And it showed. We were a vanilla mafia in a game that wasn't vanilla. Had this been a normal game, this mafia would have been fine, but with half the game unaccessable for us, we were doomed from the start.

  • premiumpremium Registered User regular
    I think a few small changes would have made this a much different game for the mafia:

    Give some or all of the mafia a higher base attack (2 instead of 1) to give them a real second kill if they need it
    Let the mafia start knowing where all the non-secret items are, so they can lie properly about their actions if they decided to attack
    Give the mafia triforces for exploring to eliminate the chance of being caught by not being able to trade

    Auralynx
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Well here's a question. How many people attacked this game total? Just Grunt's at the end?
    If so its not really a battle game.
    In a battle game its okay to have extra kills based on attacks, because village and mafia both lose power as they lose members. In a regular game it quickly spirals out of balance. I was a fan of having a kill tied to one member of mafia in a lot of games, this just lets the game be very unbalanced if the mafia lose their key member early.

  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    • Don't have Straight Vigs, Seers, or Guards in HP games. Give one player an ATK boost, Guards who can stop X damage, and Action Seers. No one, not the mafia, the village, or Serial Killer should ever have a straight up kill. No one needs to be automatically confirmed by a seer. Throw Thralls and Millers in there and keep the confusion going.

    I realise I'm slightly biased here but I don't understand why you feel this should be a cast iron rule. In a game of 30 or 40 players where everyone can attack for some damage, and one player can instantly kill someone... what makes that less fun or interesting than a game in which there's no standard vig?

  • AustinP0027AustinP0027 Registered User regular
    Wow, you go to sleep and miss everything!

    Two things right away.
    1. I appreciate @Grunt's Ghosts taking the time to add suggestions. I obviously need them if I intend on hosting again.
    2. @MrBlarney shouldn't be apologizing here at all. I reached out to him for help, I made the call to put the sign up post there when my turn rolled around, and I made the call to start the game. To summarize, responsibility split here is 100% - Austin 0% - Blarney.

    I did run this game through in my head many times, but the one thing I missed when I did was the scenario in which no one (village or mafia) attacks. I honestly didn't expect that at all, and it swing balance out way further.
    I feel like a broken record because I said this in Burnage's game but IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A BATTLE MECHANIC IN YOUR GAME, FOCUS ON THAT!!!!!!!!

    I disagree with this, however. The battle mechanic was meant to be a side offering in this game. Dungeon Crawling was the primary focus, and battle was meant to be brought in for those who felt they would rather take out others instead of trying to go for Ganon. I don't think it should be a requirement that every game that has battle mechanics focus solely on those mechanics. Maybe from a balance standpoint that's how it ends up needing to be for balance purposes but I feel like that kind of broad statement has the potential to stunt a lot of creativity in future games.

    I'd be lying if I said that after running this I have any strong desire to host again, but I also will be honest and say that a good portion of that is from the fact that it's just a lot of dang work hosting. I'm extremely impressed by those of you who do this regularly, because it certainly isn't all that fun to be on this side of it.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    • Don't have Straight Vigs, Seers, or Guards in HP games. Give one player an ATK boost, Guards who can stop X damage, and Action Seers. No one, not the mafia, the village, or Serial Killer should ever have a straight up kill. No one needs to be automatically confirmed by a seer. Throw Thralls and Millers in there and keep the confusion going.

    I realise I'm slightly biased here but I don't understand why you feel this should be a cast iron rule. In a game of 30 or 40 players where everyone can attack for some damage, and one player can instantly kill someone... what makes that less fun or interesting than a game in which there's no standard vig?

    I think his point was, the vig should still work by the battle phalla's rules and as such not be obviously village.

    The vig would just have a high powered attack that isn't colour coded as village.
    And it should be blockable etc, so it's not broadcasting that this is an unblockable kill, but rather this is a beefy special who's willing and able to name themselves as a beefy special.
    Then the players have to choose between whether that person is the nominal vig, or whether they are an SK/Mafia taking a risk.

    In a true battle phalla, the players have more information due to the attack records of each, as well as the vote record.
    So it may not be necessary to need to bake in the vig and seer roles just to gather that stuff together.

    That said... My first phalla was a battle phalla that came down to me as a mafia facing the seer and someone I had soft networked with become nethead.
    So I'm not so sure that the extra information a battle phalla produces really means anything when determining alignments.

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  • LocusLocus Trust Me AlbanyRegistered User regular
    Thanks for running the game, @AustinP0027 ! I'm glad I could help the village win, but I'm disappointed I didn't get to do any dungeon crawling. @premium did a great job with the network. I just tried not to get in the way.

    I think that the game was actually not that far off from being more well-balanced. Over the course of the game the following ideas popped into my head, and I think any one of them (or a combination thereof) would have helped:

    1. If you wanted people to attack, then I think there needed to be an incentive to do so. If, perhaps, helping kill someone got you some of their items, people would have been more willing to use the battle mechanics (especially in the late game). See: Phalla Royale.

    2. 6 HP was probably too much. 3 HP would have been fine (with some tweaking of other mechanics to compensate). This would make the mafia more powerful (essentially giving them an extra kill) and further incentivized battling. (In the alternative, increase the base attack power.)

    3. You probably could have gotten away with eliminating one or two of the village specials. Probably the seer, as the role really helped snowball the game into the village's favor just by being able to confirm some roles. I agree with Burnage, however, and think having a full vigilante was fine.

    4. I agree with premium that the mafia should have known the contents of the dungeons.

    5. Perhaps not revealing who killed a player in the results. This would have hampered the vigilante's ability to form a Day Two network. Combined with the guard and seer, it made life much more difficult for the mafia.


    I would try not to be too discouraged. Sometimes games don't work out the way we had hoped/planned. Then we learn from our mistakes and do better next time!

  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Wow, you go to sleep and miss everything!

    Two things right away.
    1. I appreciate @Grunt's Ghosts taking the time to add suggestions. I obviously need them if I intend on hosting again.
    2. @MrBlarney shouldn't be apologizing here at all. I reached out to him for help, I made the call to put the sign up post there when my turn rolled around, and I made the call to start the game. To summarize, responsibility split here is 100% - Austin 0% - Blarney.

    I did run this game through in my head many times, but the one thing I missed when I did was the scenario in which no one (village or mafia) attacks. I honestly didn't expect that at all, and it swing balance out way further.
    I feel like a broken record because I said this in Burnage's game but IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A BATTLE MECHANIC IN YOUR GAME, FOCUS ON THAT!!!!!!!!

    I disagree with this, however. The battle mechanic was meant to be a side offering in this game. Dungeon Crawling was the primary focus, and battle was meant to be brought in for those who felt they would rather take out others instead of trying to go for Ganon. I don't think it should be a requirement that every game that has battle mechanics focus solely on those mechanics. Maybe from a balance standpoint that's how it ends up needing to be for balance purposes but I feel like that kind of broad statement has the potential to stunt a lot of creativity in future games.

    I'd be lying if I said that after running this I have any strong desire to host again, but I also will be honest and say that a good portion of that is from the fact that it's just a lot of dang work hosting. I'm extremely impressed by those of you who do this regularly, because it certainly isn't all that fun to be on this side of it.

    Not to toot my own horn, but you may want to go back and look at my second Denizen phalla, premium's Dwarf Fortress offering, and some of ZH's Dungeon Phallas for games I can recall where battle mechanics were an option but not the focus, and which had only a few more moving parts than yours. Or Portend, for that matter, because while that one felt a little uneven Burnage gave us several things we could do.

    I don't think the upside on attacking was quite enough here to make it a useful choice, whereas the village obviously wanted to explore and keep the kill count down because you'd essentially put an 8-day timer on this. More people exploring meant better odds someone could win by fighting Ganon even if the mafia was ahead.

    Also, let's not forget it was blind luck that we voted out MrT Day 1. The mafia is always in trouble in games where it's immediately on the ropes through plain bad luck.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • AustinP0027AustinP0027 Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    One of the things I know for sure I am not going to build around any more is any kind of timer. The concept of collecting TriForce to get into the final boss made sense, but put into action I didn't like that people saw that within 8 days anyone could collect all the pieces. Abilities to screw with that aside, I didn't like seeing how that played out, so I think it needs to be more open ended in the future.

    I still like the offering of giving the village a way to win without eliminating every single mafia member, but it needs to be in a fashion where it isn't clear how long that could take to get there and so maybe just killing people off makes more sense to them.

    AustinP0027 on
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Alternate wins conditions are easier to balance if they don't affect the entire faction. Maybe the heroes (or villians) who assemble the triforce bring peace to the land and exit victorious, but the remaining servants of gannon are always trying to bring him back to life and so fight to the last. In this case alternate win is to the detriment of your faction, but that can balance a game out.

    If you like reading old games, I had a game where the mafia had an alternate win condition, in that they could escape if they lasted X days and had the Mcguffin. The village had ways to track down the Mcguffin and there was a neutral after it as well.
    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/172878/mini-batman-the-animated-phalla-village-victory/p1

  • Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    I wasn't super invested in this game after it became obvious early on that the village network had everything on hand.
    Still, thanks for running Austin.

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  • CythraulCythraul Registered User regular
    Thanks for running Austin, I thought the game was neat and I'm glad I got to see it through to conclusion.

    Oh, and don't stop running games. You hosts are crazy motherfuckers for the effort that goes into making these for our enjoyment. No matter how salty I get in a game I'd never give you real shit for it ;)

    Except maybe that one game warban ran years ago. I remember that being hilariously clusterfucky.

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  • FryFry Registered User regular
    The stuff about exploration vs battle aside:

    I don't understand why people keep putting confirmable vigilantes into their games, especially if there's a guard role to protect it. Most of the real gameplay here was for premium (see the comment about hundreds of PMs). If you're going to hand someone a free pass to set themselves up as a network head, you have to have some means in place for the mafia to counteract it.

    Cythraul
  • BurnageBurnage Registered User regular
    This is a genuine question, since I haven't played phalla much for the last few years;

    Is it now unusual for games to have the vig, guard and seer roles? The "vigilante calling their kill so a guard could protect them and a seer could verify them" was, like, a standard play back when I was a regular.

    ObiFett
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Burnage wrote: »
    This is a genuine question, since I haven't played phalla much for the last few years;

    Is it now unusual for games to have the vig, guard and seer roles? The "vigilante calling their kill so a guard could protect them and a seer could verify them" was, like, a standard play back when I was a regular.

    It's still expected, to the point where there's occasional blowback and always confusion when that's not the case.

    Some games have tried neutral-colored kills and in... I think it was WACriminal's game I was a serial killer who could vig people and have it look like a villager had, which was expected to be a pretty good deal.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

  • FryFry Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Burnage wrote: »
    This is a genuine question, since I haven't played phalla much for the last few years;

    Is it now unusual for games to have the vig, guard and seer roles? The "vigilante calling their kill so a guard could protect them and a seer could verify them" was, like, a standard play back when I was a regular.

    No, it seems to be quite usual around here, and I don't understand why, because it centralizes the whole game of 30+ people around just those few players.

    eta: even if you change the alignment of the shooter, like in Auralynx's example where it's actually a serial killer who checks good and whose kills show up as townkills but he isn't actually on the town's team...it's still a game design problem, because it's still The Auralynx Game and not something where all 30 players are equal participants

    Fry on
    Zombie Hero
  • GizzyGizzy i am a cat PhoenixRegistered User regular
    I wonder if it would even things out to give the Mafia a seer ability to help them special hunt, and give a means to possibly sneak into a network.

    I know some folks go giving the Mafia a once per game unblockable kill route to combat eternal network head - which means the village is on its own for a bit until a seer call is made. (Or on its own for the remainder of the game if the seer died early)

    Switch Animal Crossing Friend Code: SW-5107-9276-1030
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  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    Gizzy wrote: »
    I wonder if it would even things out to give the Mafia a seer ability to help them special hunt, and give a means to possibly sneak into a network.

    I know some folks go giving the Mafia a once per game unblockable kill route to combat eternal network head - which means the village is on its own for a bit until a seer call is made. (Or on its own for the remainder of the game if the seer died early)

    I've been confused for a while now that the mafia seer role - which so far as I know goes by consigliere in most games - isn't more common in Phalla designs. It does show up in a lot of our bigger games but it's very rare in the smaller scale ones. Busdrivers and limited-condition guards (kill abilities but not attacks, or vice-versa) are also things I can remember being tried.

    To a certain extent, though, the important question isn't "why is the vig-guard-seer triad present and predictable in its operation most games," but "to what degree does the host want to reinvent the wheel?" and the flip-side "to what degree does the Phalla community want to have to piece together what roles are actually in the game every couple of weeks?" Personally, I get a huge kick out of "what's actually in play here?" as main question on the first few days of a game, but it seems to me like I'm either in the minority or just more enthusiastic about that kind of deduction than many of you.

    kshu0oba7xnr.png

    JPants
  • 38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Mafia seers are pretty powerful, almost converting the villagers seered into mafia, they'll usually vote along mafia lines use powers as requested by their seer friend. Still if it was more common it would be less powerful.

    Mafia bus drivers are apparently very frowned upon.
    Auralynx wrote: »
    To a certain extent, though, the important question isn't "why is the vig-guard-seer triad present and predictable in its operation most games," but "to what degree does the host want to reinvent the wheel?" and the flip-side "to what degree does the Phalla community want to have to piece together what roles are actually in the game every couple of weeks?" Personally, I get a huge kick out of "what's actually in play here?" as main question on the first few days of a game, but it seems to me like I'm either in the minority or just more enthusiastic about that kind of deduction than many of you.

    I love adding crazy crap in games and figuring out crazy crap, but I don't know if I'm the majority. I know we have a population that loves the vanilla games, so there is that. The hard thing is that adding powers make games harder to balance, something I'm not great at in the first place.

    AuralynxJPants
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