Does MMO need to neccessarily have classes and shit? How about that you are just a force-sensetive being. Every player is force sensetive, you could still have races. Then, you simply choose what you want to do. You don't need to be jedi. If you want to do bounty hunting, get the neccessary equipment and guns, and start hunting people. You don't need to have a Bounty Hunter class, if you simply practice enough with your own skills, you eventually become good at shooting guns and hunting people under your OWN skills, not with some skill points and crap. If you want to become a jedi, then train your force powers somewhere until you become better with them...
Wouldn't it be cool to have an MMO where your own skills make the difference, not some skill point or level or class? Then there would not be any balance bitching, since everybody could be whatever they want, if they are good enough, and if you lose a fight, it's because your opponent was simply more skilled then you. If you want to beat more people, then freaking train more. The developers could then spend more time on stuff that matters (gameplay, graphics, new additions), instead of spending 60% of their time balancing classes because some loser lost a fight again. :x
But that's not Star Wars. In Star Wars, there are these different classes of people with abilities we can't replicate.
The Kotor system worked damn well (with the threexthreexthree progression thing). Anything more than that (with specified healers/bounty hunters/traders etc.) would be lame.
you guys also remember that in KOTOR, while Jedi were cool (they filled in more or less the "magic" classes), they really weren't like ridiculous, there were plenty non Jedi in your party who kicked as much ass. Am I the only one who preferred Canderous to everyone else?
exactly. which is why BioWare is the company most suited to make a Star Wars MMORPG, because they're great at balancing Jedi with other characters.
Personally, I don't think there should be any "classes" persay. They should use a system where your skills define your role, not the other way around. want to be a Jedi? that's fine, but you only have X number of skill points to spend, so you'd better pick skills that complement how you want to play the game.
I think that Jedi should be more like a "job" than a "class".
you guys also remember that in KOTOR, while Jedi were cool (they filled in more or less the "magic" classes), they really weren't like ridiculous, there were plenty non Jedi in your party who kicked as much ass. Am I the only one who preferred Canderous to everyone else?
For me it's T3-M4. Killing 3/4 of the entire enemy base with 6 computer spikes and unlimited godly energy shield ftw.
I think that Jedi should be more like a "job" than a "class".
But 'Jedi' is a class. 'Bounty Hunter' is a job. Jedi (or Sith etc.) are defined by the way in which they are different from others. It's not something to be decided on. To have it like that in a game would just be...wierd.
sure, anything reflex oriented, a Jedi is going to kick your ass at. but what about pure brute strength? mental capacity, or creativity. or tactics. As far as the whole Jedi Mind Trick thing goes for social aspects/manipuation/charisma or whatever. That's one thing I'd be willing to sacrifice (unless we're talking about NPCs..maybe). If you want to make Jedi easier to balance. I think you have to throw out all the feature creep that was done in the EU and limit their powers to just stuff you've seen in movies.
Force Push/Pull/choke Force Speed, Force Jump, hyper reflexes, lightsaber training. maybe some sort of precognitive ability. I mean, isn't that enough to be uber? Why does there have to be all this extra stuff like Jedi Healing and whirlwind and control beast and battle meditation, etc etc.
if anything, i'd like to see a more advanced system of swordplay so that it isn't just about mashing down the master feat button like it was in the SP game. I'd love them to make lightsaber combat like Nick Gilliard once described it: "High Speed chess" Involve the various lightsaber forms, etc. The great thing about that is that's only going to apply to fighting with other Jedi, its going to be next to useless against the other classes (unless you study that form that was great at blaster deflection I guess)
sure, anything reflex oriented, a Jedi is going to kick your ass at. but what about pure brute strength? mental capacity, or creativity. or tactics. As far as the whole Jedi Mind Trick thing goes for social aspects/manipuation/charisma or whatever. That's one thing I'd be willing to sacrifice (unless we're talking about NPCs..maybe). If you want to make Jedi easier to balance. I think you have to throw out all the feature creep that was done in the EU and limit their powers to just stuff you've seen in movies.
Force Push/Pull/choke Force Speed, Force Jump, hyper reflexes, lightsaber training. maybe some sort of precognitive ability. I mean, isn't that enough to be uber? Why does there have to be all this extra stuff like Jedi Healing and whirlwind and control beast and battle meditation, etc etc.
Mind Tricks only work on the weak minded. In the context of a MMO that would naturally only apply to NPCs (and players who you literally trick of course). It would work perfectly well in the situation.
In the Kotor games, there were no ridiculously awesome force abilities, and the character you built could easily range from pointlessly weak to an absolute demon in combat depending on how you spec them. Since I'm assuming they wouldn't go out of their way to create a new character creation system for a new game, there's no reason to think any 'class' issues would occur.
'Cept for Jedi vs. 'Normals', which could easily be solved by only allowing a certain number (of Jedi) to participate on each server at any given time.
(And there's nothing wrong with Force Heal. It's a proper Jedi ability. No problems with control beast either. I'll grant you Battle Meditation and Whirlwind, but they'd be high level anyway, I would have thought.)
I think that Jedi should be more like a "job" than a "class".
But 'Jedi' is a class. 'Bounty Hunter' is a job. Jedi (or Sith etc.) are defined by the way in which they are different from others. It's not something to be decided on. To have it like that in a game would just be...wierd.
I think 'Jedi' is more like a prestige class, as in KOTOR. I think it is in fact a job that takes some dedication, and what kind of Jedi you are will be based on what sort of person you are.
Hell, I think the whole idea of classes is retarded though. KOTOR really had it right with just the three.
I have to admit, I kinda miss the old SWG system where there were no classes, (cept for Jedi) just skill trees. you pick what you want.
Of course, I'd love it if someone could truly innovate MMOs and come up with something different than just XP being a number you get after you kill something. so that the MMO doesn't degenerate into grinding. I fucking hate grinding!
Wouldn't it be cool to have an MMO where your own skills make the difference, not some skill point or level or class?
They have those games, they're called FPS (see Planetside and probably WWIIO for them in an MMO setting). Personally I can't modify electrical equipment, make weapons or perform surgery so I would find something like this pretty limiting in an MMO game if I decided I wanted to play those sorts of characters.
I think that Jedi should be more like a "job" than a "class".
But 'Jedi' is a class. 'Bounty Hunter' is a job. Jedi (or Sith etc.) are defined by the way in which they are different from others. It's not something to be decided on. To have it like that in a game would just be...wierd.
I think 'Jedi' is more like a prestige class, as in KOTOR. I think it is in fact a job that takes some dedication, and what kind of Jedi you are will be based on what sort of person you are.
Hell, I think the whole idea of classes is retarded though. KOTOR really had it right with just the three.
But you don't become Force-sensitive normally, as happened in Kotor. In Star Wars [Jedi/Sith/Unaffiliated] and 'Normals' are classes distinct from each other. Beyond that the Kotor system works fine (broad three-template selection to customise as you like), where the choices you make determine job [Jedi Knight/Bounty Hunter/Smuggler with a heart of gold etc.].
I think that Jedi should be more like a "job" than a "class".
But 'Jedi' is a class. 'Bounty Hunter' is a job. Jedi (or Sith etc.) are defined by the way in which they are different from others. It's not something to be decided on. To have it like that in a game would just be...wierd.
I think 'Jedi' is more like a prestige class, as in KOTOR. I think it is in fact a job that takes some dedication, and what kind of Jedi you are will be based on what sort of person you are.
Hell, I think the whole idea of classes is retarded though. KOTOR really had it right with just the three.
But you don't become Force-sensitive normally, as happened in Kotor. In Star Wars [Jedi/Sith/Unaffiliated] and 'Normals' are classes distinct from each other. Beyond that the Kotor system works fine (broad three-template selection to customise as you like), where the choices you make determine job [Jedi Knight/Bounty Hunter/Smuggler with a heart of gold etc.].
I mean I know the lore, I just don't see that being very fun.
Here's a tip: Jedi aren't invincible. And if they're being shot at by a bunch of blasters and are trying to dodge, it's going to be hard for them to concentrate. You're not fucking going to be Goku with a lightsaber, you're just going to be some shmuck padawan that may or may not have his ass blasted. it's real hard to force crush genitals when you're being distracted by incoming fire. Good jedi were able to concentrate. I mean, shit, in the movies all the Jedi that died couldn't hold a fucking candle to Mace or Yoda.
I mean I know the lore, I just don't see that being very fun.
You mean you don't think choosing whether you can use the Force or not at the start can be fun? Or that some people can use it and others can't?
Some people want to be Boba Fett. Others want to be Obi-Wan. I know the Obi-Wans may well outnumber the Boba Fetts, but there's no reason that this must detroy the game. Place a few non-lame limits on things Jedi-side (noreason to gimp all but the most ridiculous world destroying abilities, just limit population), and you have yourself a game.
The Kotor progression systems worked. To an extent you could make any typical profession build you wanted. They only sticky wicket is the Force issue, but it's certainly not necessaily a barrier to funland.
Here's a tip: Jedi aren't invincible. And if they're being shot at by a bunch of blasters and are trying to dodge, it's going to be hard for them to concentrate. You're not fucking going to be Goku with a lightsaber, you're just going to be some shmuck padawan that may or may not have his ass blasted. it's real hard to force crush genitals when you're being distracted by incoming fire. Good jedi were able to concentrate. I mean, shit, in the movies all the Jedi that died couldn't hold a fucking candle to Mace or Yoda.
The AotC arena fight is the one to look at, since it's the only movie scene where non-awesome Jedi fought.
One on one they beat droids. Against numbers they went down fast.
Mace is a level 70 duelist with unique lightsaber & special duelling skillz. Of course he's gonna beat Jango Fett. Random Jedi master... not so much.
edit: I am slowly realising it is my gaming dream to give barely-informative lectures on the nature of the Force to groups of lightsaber-waving teens, while sitting on the grass on Dantooine in flowery robes. And then banning them from the Order when they call me a fag.
Skill trees were the best thing about SWG, it really allowed customization.
I was a Rifleman/BH, like many people. Most used their last 33 skill points in medic.
I put mine in dancing.
Woe be to the Jedi that angered the dancing bounty hunter, for his corpse was /dance rhythym2'd upon.
I also think I was the only Teras Kasi Master/Creature Handler ever during the Combat Expansion
And in the NGE I was a
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This is where I get pissed at the idea of a KOTOR MMO
Sure, in the old SWG system, you could customize and pick whatever skills you want, but as you just pointed out, most people picked a certain set, a certain formula
MMOs just always seem to degenerate into a numbers game, which pisses me off no end. That's not fun IMO
Here's a tip: Jedi aren't invincible. And if they're being shot at by a bunch of blasters and are trying to dodge, it's going to be hard for them to concentrate. You're not fucking going to be Goku with a lightsaber, you're just going to be some shmuck padawan that may or may not have his ass blasted. it's real hard to force crush genitals when you're being distracted by incoming fire. Good jedi were able to concentrate. I mean, shit, in the movies all the Jedi that died couldn't hold a fucking candle to Mace or Yoda.
The AotC arena fight is the one to look at, since it's the only movie scene where non-awesome Jedi fought.
One on one they beat droids. Against numbers they went down fast.
Mace is a level 70 duelist with unique lightsaber & special duelling skillz. Of course he's gonna beat Jango Fett. Random Jedi master... not so much.
This is so true. Sure, Jedi in general are awesome, and they should be, but just because our favorite heroes from the movies survived and were gods among even other Jedi, doesn't mean they all were that powerful. Against droids, sure, I could see a Jedi (or any class really) having a cakewalk with most, as they should, but numbers here are the issue. I think of a mage in many games, or maybe a hunter as portrayed in LOTRO, if any of you have tried that. Sure, everybody wants to play a hunter because they want to be lolLegolas, and sure, when played well you're a damage dealing machine from a distance. However, pull more than two without some sort of trap in place, and you will quickly die. Most mages in MMOs are usually uber strong in combat as well, as long as they drop enemies before they're touched. I know these are not exactly Jedi combat techniques, but to me, it partially holds up. Limit Jedi to cloth robe armor with nothing but some sort of very limited Force armor, and turn them into a bit of a glass cannon. They shouldn't be tanks, but they should be exceptional fighters, as long as they don't get hit much; maybe more of an agility based fighter than strength/vitality based fighter. As for Jedi classes/abilities, I would love ot see the focus on guardian vs. consular vs. sentinal. Maybe give guardians access to better lightsaber techniques and only basic Force powers, like push, pull, jump. Consulars could be decent with a saber, but maybe more Paladin-like, with an access to more Force spells of healing and buffing, and sentinels could have a bit of each. I don't know; it's mostly wishful thinking, as I really want this to work.
EDIT: I realize that reads a bit like a jumbled mess. I'm such a fanboy, honestly.
I think this is a bad idea because everyone's going to want to be the Fett that killed a Jedi. Well that and the fact that I'll have to deal with a sea of other Force sensitives and Cango's yelling at me through vent saying he's the Lord of the Dance.
I disagree with your views on class-designated Force powers. The Kotor system works fine, with more Force points available to Consulars, more Feats to guardians etc. There's no need to remove the option for certain moves for certain classes.
fake edit: Only there were a few moves you could only get with certain prestige Jedi classes weren't there? Been a while since I played the second one. If so, I haven't a leg to stand on here.
I disagree with your views on class-designated Force powers. The Kotor system works fine, with more Force points available to Consulars, more Feats to guardians etc. There's no need to remove the option for certain moves for certain classes.
fake edit: Only there were a few moves you could only get with certain prestige Jedi classes weren't there? Been a while since I played the second one. If so, I haven't a leg to stand on here.
Yeah, I think you're right. I totally see your point on the class thing. It's hard to clearly express my ideas on what would work. I'm more or less thinking out loud and oversimplifying stuff, but I just know there's a way to do this. More than anything, I would like to see what you mentioned go into this, with perhaps special feats/powers granted only to certain specifications. I mean, lore-wise, even though Jedi were generally trained the same, there were many who were very skilled saber combatants, others who were better at negotiating and subtlely, and still others who were perhaps more adept at using the Force than with a saber. All were good at each, but I could see Jedi being more interesting to play if there was at least some sort of specialization.
Wouldn't it be cool to have an MMO where your own skills make the difference, not some skill point or level or class?
They have those games, they're called FPS (see Planetside and probably WWIIO for them in an MMO setting). Personally I can't modify electrical equipment, make weapons or perform surgery so I would find something like this pretty limiting in an MMO game if I decided I wanted to play those sorts of characters.
Yeah, because there obviously could not be a simplified interface for that sort of thing.
Seriously though, do you really want yet-another-freaking MMO with point-click-watch type of combat? And the combat wasn't excatly the only reason why no-classes would be better. The old SWG went near this type of thing, I don't remember there being nearly as much class-bitching as in WoW. No-levels would ALSO eliminate the bane of all MMO's, grinding.
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But that's not Star Wars. In Star Wars, there are these different classes of people with abilities we can't replicate.
The Kotor system worked damn well (with the threexthreexthree progression thing). Anything more than that (with specified healers/bounty hunters/traders etc.) would be lame.
exactly. which is why BioWare is the company most suited to make a Star Wars MMORPG, because they're great at balancing Jedi with other characters.
Personally, I don't think there should be any "classes" persay. They should use a system where your skills define your role, not the other way around. want to be a Jedi? that's fine, but you only have X number of skill points to spend, so you'd better pick skills that complement how you want to play the game.
I think that Jedi should be more like a "job" than a "class".
For me it's T3-M4. Killing 3/4 of the entire enemy base with 6 computer spikes and unlimited godly energy shield ftw.
But 'Jedi' is a class. 'Bounty Hunter' is a job. Jedi (or Sith etc.) are defined by the way in which they are different from others. It's not something to be decided on. To have it like that in a game would just be...wierd.
Force Push/Pull/choke Force Speed, Force Jump, hyper reflexes, lightsaber training. maybe some sort of precognitive ability. I mean, isn't that enough to be uber? Why does there have to be all this extra stuff like Jedi Healing and whirlwind and control beast and battle meditation, etc etc.
if anything, i'd like to see a more advanced system of swordplay so that it isn't just about mashing down the master feat button like it was in the SP game. I'd love them to make lightsaber combat like Nick Gilliard once described it: "High Speed chess" Involve the various lightsaber forms, etc. The great thing about that is that's only going to apply to fighting with other Jedi, its going to be next to useless against the other classes (unless you study that form that was great at blaster deflection I guess)
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Mind Tricks only work on the weak minded. In the context of a MMO that would naturally only apply to NPCs (and players who you literally trick of course). It would work perfectly well in the situation.
In the Kotor games, there were no ridiculously awesome force abilities, and the character you built could easily range from pointlessly weak to an absolute demon in combat depending on how you spec them. Since I'm assuming they wouldn't go out of their way to create a new character creation system for a new game, there's no reason to think any 'class' issues would occur.
'Cept for Jedi vs. 'Normals', which could easily be solved by only allowing a certain number (of Jedi) to participate on each server at any given time.
(And there's nothing wrong with Force Heal. It's a proper Jedi ability. No problems with control beast either. I'll grant you Battle Meditation and Whirlwind, but they'd be high level anyway, I would have thought.)
[/aimless rambling]
I think 'Jedi' is more like a prestige class, as in KOTOR. I think it is in fact a job that takes some dedication, and what kind of Jedi you are will be based on what sort of person you are.
Hell, I think the whole idea of classes is retarded though. KOTOR really had it right with just the three.
Of course, I'd love it if someone could truly innovate MMOs and come up with something different than just XP being a number you get after you kill something. so that the MMO doesn't degenerate into grinding. I fucking hate grinding!
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
I was a Rifleman/BH, like many people. Most used their last 33 skill points in medic.
I put mine in dancing.
Woe be to the Jedi that angered the dancing bounty hunter, for his corpse was /dance rhythym2'd upon.
I also think I was the only Teras Kasi Master/Creature Handler ever during the Combat Expansion
And in the NGE I was a
They have those games, they're called FPS (see Planetside and probably WWIIO for them in an MMO setting). Personally I can't modify electrical equipment, make weapons or perform surgery so I would find something like this pretty limiting in an MMO game if I decided I wanted to play those sorts of characters.
But you don't become Force-sensitive normally, as happened in Kotor. In Star Wars [Jedi/Sith/Unaffiliated] and 'Normals' are classes distinct from each other. Beyond that the Kotor system works fine (broad three-template selection to customise as you like), where the choices you make determine job [Jedi Knight/Bounty Hunter/Smuggler with a heart of gold etc.].
Yeah, okay. Tell that to the Jedi, who was worth 226,000 credits, that just got killed by a guy dancing in hotpants.
I mean I know the lore, I just don't see that being very fun.
Cango, I could use like a fraction of my force power to simply tighten said hotpants and make your genitals explode if I was a Jedi.
Only a crumby game like SWG would allow a Michael Flatly wannabe bounty hunter kill a Jedi.
You mean you don't think choosing whether you can use the Force or not at the start can be fun? Or that some people can use it and others can't?
Some people want to be Boba Fett. Others want to be Obi-Wan. I know the Obi-Wans may well outnumber the Boba Fetts, but there's no reason that this must detroy the game. Place a few non-lame limits on things Jedi-side (noreason to gimp all but the most ridiculous world destroying abilities, just limit population), and you have yourself a game.
The Kotor progression systems worked. To an extent you could make any typical profession build you wanted. They only sticky wicket is the Force issue, but it's certainly not necessaily a barrier to funland.
Now try shooting a gun.
Like why aren't Jedi crushing nutsacks in the movies, is what I'd like to know.
That would not be Jedi. Of the dark side of the force is the desire to crush a man's hotpants. Down a dangerous path that leads you.
The AotC arena fight is the one to look at, since it's the only movie scene where non-awesome Jedi fought.
One on one they beat droids. Against numbers they went down fast.
Mace is a level 70 duelist with unique lightsaber & special duelling skillz. Of course he's gonna beat Jango Fett. Random Jedi master... not so much.
edit: I am slowly realising it is my gaming dream to give barely-informative lectures on the nature of the Force to groups of lightsaber-waving teens, while sitting on the grass on Dantooine in flowery robes. And then banning them from the Order when they call me a fag.
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This is where I get pissed at the idea of a KOTOR MMO
Sure, in the old SWG system, you could customize and pick whatever skills you want, but as you just pointed out, most people picked a certain set, a certain formula
MMOs just always seem to degenerate into a numbers game, which pisses me off no end. That's not fun IMO
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
This is so true. Sure, Jedi in general are awesome, and they should be, but just because our favorite heroes from the movies survived and were gods among even other Jedi, doesn't mean they all were that powerful. Against droids, sure, I could see a Jedi (or any class really) having a cakewalk with most, as they should, but numbers here are the issue. I think of a mage in many games, or maybe a hunter as portrayed in LOTRO, if any of you have tried that. Sure, everybody wants to play a hunter because they want to be lolLegolas, and sure, when played well you're a damage dealing machine from a distance. However, pull more than two without some sort of trap in place, and you will quickly die. Most mages in MMOs are usually uber strong in combat as well, as long as they drop enemies before they're touched. I know these are not exactly Jedi combat techniques, but to me, it partially holds up. Limit Jedi to cloth robe armor with nothing but some sort of very limited Force armor, and turn them into a bit of a glass cannon. They shouldn't be tanks, but they should be exceptional fighters, as long as they don't get hit much; maybe more of an agility based fighter than strength/vitality based fighter. As for Jedi classes/abilities, I would love ot see the focus on guardian vs. consular vs. sentinal. Maybe give guardians access to better lightsaber techniques and only basic Force powers, like push, pull, jump. Consulars could be decent with a saber, but maybe more Paladin-like, with an access to more Force spells of healing and buffing, and sentinels could have a bit of each. I don't know; it's mostly wishful thinking, as I really want this to work.
EDIT: I realize that reads a bit like a jumbled mess. I'm such a fanboy, honestly.
Seriously, why restrict it to that specifically?
I think this is a bad idea because everyone's going to want to be the Fett that killed a Jedi. Well that and the fact that I'll have to deal with a sea of other Force sensitives and Cango's yelling at me through vent saying he's the Lord of the Dance.
fake edit: Only there were a few moves you could only get with certain prestige Jedi classes weren't there? Been a while since I played the second one. If so, I haven't a leg to stand on here.
Sentinel, are you kidding me? They were a joke.
Ooooh Bastilla with her battle meditation.
oooooohh
Yeah, I think you're right. I totally see your point on the class thing. It's hard to clearly express my ideas on what would work. I'm more or less thinking out loud and oversimplifying stuff, but I just know there's a way to do this. More than anything, I would like to see what you mentioned go into this, with perhaps special feats/powers granted only to certain specifications. I mean, lore-wise, even though Jedi were generally trained the same, there were many who were very skilled saber combatants, others who were better at negotiating and subtlely, and still others who were perhaps more adept at using the Force than with a saber. All were good at each, but I could see Jedi being more interesting to play if there was at least some sort of specialization.
Don't underestimate the power of the force.
As in, you're a wet paper bag with a pinch of midichlorians.
Might as well just use a blaster while you're at it.
It works for an RPG, not an MMO.
Because they are entirely awesome.
Yeah....I enjoyed my dual wielding death machine as well. I couldn't resist.
EDIT - And yeah, Soldier->Guardian was too much slicey to resist.
Indeed. Only way to go in the single player games.
In an MMO, though, there's much more incentive to play a (pansy) healer or other support-type Jedi. System might even work better in that setting.
Yeah, because there obviously could not be a simplified interface for that sort of thing.
Seriously though, do you really want yet-another-freaking MMO with point-click-watch type of combat? And the combat wasn't excatly the only reason why no-classes would be better. The old SWG went near this type of thing, I don't remember there being nearly as much class-bitching as in WoW. No-levels would ALSO eliminate the bane of all MMO's, grinding.