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FUCK the DEA!

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    ALocksly wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Locksly:
    The first quote is talking about crime, the second talks about health related matters, and the third talks about alcohol, which completely different culturally from different from drugs for one thing, and for another, it doesn't say anything about the consumption of alcohol relative to when the Prohibition was lifted.

    I was talking about actual drug use.

    see guys THIS is how one debates

    also:
    Switzerland's lead is being followed by a small but growing number of countries disillusioned with "zero-tolerance" U.S. drug polices. That has put the Swiss at odds with the U.S. government, which criticizes the Swiss approach and maintains that "drug use is widespread" among the country's 7.1-million people.
    However, the United States' own figures belie that claim. According to the State Department's latest report on global drug trends, marijuana is by far the most commonly used drug here yet is smoked by less than 8 percent of all Swiss -- a rate not out of line with other Western European countries and the United States.

    Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Why the hell would there be less drug use when it would be more accessible to everyone? I mean, if even one person decided to smoke now that it was legal, then drug use would technically increase, and I don't think there are many who would stop taking drugs if they were suddenly legal. I do know there are probably a number of people who would smoke (since we are using marijuana as an example, and honestly, the harder drugs would probably be different) if it were legal and easy to find.

    I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, mind you, I'm just wondering how a reduction would be numerically possible. I would agree that any increase wouldn't necessarily be large, or even all that significant. I'm just saying that it seems unlikely that drug use would decrease if drugs were legalized and regulated by the government.

    Fencingsax on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007

    You're missing a lurking variable. You see, the Dutch are magical people.

    I do miss Variable when he's lurking.

    I didn't know he was Duch though.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear. Why the hell would there be less drug use when it would be more accessible to everyone? I mean, if even one person decided to smoke now that it was legal, then drug use would technically increase, and I don't think there are many who would stop taking drugs if they were suddenly legal. I do know there are probably a number of people who would smoke (since we are using marijuana as an example, and honestly, the harder drugs would probably be different) if it were legal and easy to find.

    I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, mind you, I'm just wondering how a reduction would be numerically possible. I would agree that any increase wouldn't necessarily be large, or even all that significant. I'm just saying that it seems unlikely that drug use would decrease if drugs were legalized and regulated by the government.

    Well, the argument goes like this; currently weed is illegal in the US but still ridiculously easy to get. The is also the lure of the forbidden. Think about a party of underage drinkers, they're so stoked to be drinking booze, it's cool, its risky. Same folks in their early 20s and the risk is gone, they can walk into a gas station and buy a sixpack no big deal.

    now, if it were legal it honestly would be about as easy to get as it is now but there would be no thrill of the illicit, the "cool" factor would go down. So the people who really want to get high will still be getting high but the ones who were in it just to show what a rebel they were lose interest and go back to punching holes in their eyebrows.

    edit: the important thing to take from the Swiss heroin study was that if you decriminalize the addict and allow for a regulated source for the drug you end up with more people getting off the drug. Since they still have a life, a job, and a family to go back to it's also easier to stay off it. The dropoff in peripheral crimes associated with illicit use is just a nice perk.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    ALocksly wrote: »
    Well, the argument goes like this; currently weed is illegal in the US but still ridiculously easy to get. The is also the lure of the forbidden. Think about a party of underage drinkers, they're so stoked to be drinking booze, it's cool, its risky. Same folks in their early 20s and the risk is gone, they can walk into a gas station and buy a sixpack no big deal.

    It's funny how you can pick out the people old enough to drink in some campus bars by noting which ones aren't blatantly piss-drunk.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    ALocksly wrote: »
    Well, the argument goes like this; currently weed is illegal in the US but still ridiculously easy to get. The is also the lure of the forbidden. Think about a party of underage drinkers, they're so stoked to be drinking booze, it's cool, its risky. Same folks in their early 20s and the risk is gone, they can walk into a gas station and buy a sixpack no big deal.

    It's funny how you can pick out the people old enough to drink in some campus bars by noting which ones aren't blatantly piss-drunk.

    So kids would drink more responsibly if there was no age limit on drinking.

    Wevs on
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Legalizing theft would stop kleptomaniacs.

    Wevs on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    It also just occured to me that if weed were legal you would cease to be a bad boy for smoking it,

    you'd just be a pothead.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    ALocksly wrote: »
    Well, the argument goes like this; currently weed is illegal in the US but still ridiculously easy to get. The is also the lure of the forbidden. Think about a party of underage drinkers, they're so stoked to be drinking booze, it's cool, its risky. Same folks in their early 20s and the risk is gone, they can walk into a gas station and buy a sixpack no big deal.

    It's funny how you can pick out the people old enough to drink in some campus bars by noting which ones aren't blatantly piss-drunk.

    So kids would drink more responsibly if there was no age limit on drinking.

    Well, Germany.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    ALocksly wrote: »
    Well, the argument goes like this; currently weed is illegal in the US but still ridiculously easy to get. The is also the lure of the forbidden. Think about a party of underage drinkers, they're so stoked to be drinking booze, it's cool, its risky. Same folks in their early 20s and the risk is gone, they can walk into a gas station and buy a sixpack no big deal.

    It's funny how you can pick out the people old enough to drink in some campus bars by noting which ones aren't blatantly piss-drunk.

    So kids would drink more responsibly if there was no age limit on drinking.

    no, but kids do drink more responsibly when the focus is the drink and not on the act of drinking.

    Go to France of Italy where the kids drink wine at the table all the time. There's no thrill in sneaking off to drink what your parents let you have every night.

    come to think of it Germany has a crazy low legal age, like 16 or so, also has a crazy low DUI rate

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Legalizing theft would stop kleptomaniacs.

    It's cute that you think that's at all analagous.

    ViolentChemistry on
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Legalizing theft would stop kleptomaniacs.

    It's cute that you think that's at all analagous.

    I don't think legalizing drugs is analogous to legalizing theft, but saying that legalizing drugs would stop people from taking them to "seem cool" is similar in that it ignores the other possible effects. It looks like a positive point on it's own, but it doesn't actually work like that.

    Wevs on
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    SithDrummerSithDrummer Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    This has all gone to shit, but at least I got a few updates for the sigfile out of it.

    SithDrummer on
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    I was just trying to point out the narrow views that some people in here seem to have on a complex situation. I thought it was cute the way you interpreted my comment though.

    Wevs on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Wevs wrote: »
    Legalizing theft would stop kleptomaniacs.

    It's cute that you think that's at all analagous.

    I don't think legalizing drugs is analogous to legalizing theft, but saying that legalizing drugs would stop people from taking them to "seem cool" is similar in that it ignores the other possible effects.

    There are several good links in this thread for what has happenend in countries where they did legalize drugs. This isn't unknown territory here. And again, it's not like weed is all that difficult to get now. Legalizing it would just make life harder for dealers and smugglers and gangs whose funding come from it's sale.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    I was just trying to point out the narrow views that some people in here seem to have on a complex situation. I thought it was cute the way you interpreted my comment though.

    Narrow because we have read a variety of peer reviewed studies on the subject, looked at the history, and examined anologous situations elsewhere before coming to our conclusions?

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Does a reduction in drug use even matter? If we see an increase in use, who cares, as long as we see an overall reduction in economic and social costs (by virtue of lives not being ruined by use, cleaner drugs less likely to kill/fuck up people, reduction in funds flowing to organized crime, etc)

    Vincent Grayson on
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Ok, which illegal drugs are more used than alcohol. Because it's apparently illegality making people use drugs.

    I wonder which peer reviewed study Aemilius got "FUCK the DEA!" from.

    Wevs on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Does a reduction in drug use even matter? If we see an increase in use, who cares, as long as we see an overall reduction in economic and social costs (by virtue of lives not being ruined by use, cleaner drugs less likely to kill/fuck up people, reduction in funds flowing to organized crime, etc)

    I actually wouldn't mind trading a few drunks in for a few more potheads if it came to that. Drunks get agressive, and often go out looking for dumb shit to do, potheads mostly just giggle and go to sleep. Sure, they're not getting much done, but they're not runnin' me off the road either.

    also quick question: How many folks here are not taking meth or heroin or crack only because it's illegal?

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Drunk people behave worse than people who smoke weed, therefore we should legalize drugs.

    Wevs on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Drunk people behave worse than people who smoke weed, therefore we should legalize drugs.


    No, Drunk people behave worse than people who smoke weed, therefore alcohol, which is legal, is more detrimantal to society than weed, which is not.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    I wonder which peer reviewed study Aemilius got "FUCK the DEA!" from.

    I thought, in light of the fairly serious tone of my first post, and the fact that I never said anything along the lines of "fuck the Man, man," and my professed nature as a quasi-fascist, you would understand that the title was a joke. Also, meant to get people to come into the thread and take a look. Fucking marketing.

    But way to divert from the issue at hand and be a pedantic, nit-picking cunt.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Drunk people behave worse than people who smoke weed, therefore we should legalize drugs.

    What is this? What the fuck are you doing?

    Vincent Grayson on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Weed use is probably close to heavy drinking. It's much more widespread than you think.

    nexuscrawler on
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Drunk people behave worse than people who smoke weed, therefore we should legalize drugs.

    You know what's really clever? Taking one sentence -- basically at random -- out of someone's post, and distorting the obvious intention of it, taking it utterly out of context, and spinning it into a strawman which you can easily tear down. Perferably in your own meaningless, one-sentence, sarcasm-laden zinger.

    The only drawback to doing that is that it makes you a fucking asshole. Please die in a car fire.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    Drunk people behave worse than people who smoke weed, therefore we should legalize drugs.

    What is this? What the fuck are you doing?

    ninja editing his posts for one thing

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    So people choose to use alcohol even though it has detrimental effects, but wouldn't use other detrimental drugs even if they were legal, because they understand the problems they cause.

    Wevs on
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    sdrawkcaB emaNsdrawkcaB emaN regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    So people choose to use alcohol even though it has detrimental effects, but wouldn't use other detrimental drugs even if they were legal, because they understand the problems they cause.

    Way to ignore context, and the reason he wrote what he did.

    Sorry, you're still a fuckstick.

    Keep trying though -- you'll get there someday.

    sdrawkcaB emaN on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    So people choose to use alcohol even though it has detrimental effects, but wouldn't use other detrimental drugs even if they were legal, because they understand the problems they cause.

    No, those that are using them would continue to do so with some dropoff due to it losing the allure of the illicit. Also they wouldn't be jailed for it.

    The people who profit from it's production and sale would lose money.

    Since you keep keep making silly strawmen I'm going to ignore you till you can come up with a real arguement.

    also; go back and read the damn thread.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Aemilius do you use drugs?

    Xaquin on
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    That's a fair point. You could have just called me a fuckstick though.

    I have a bit of a problem with the references to other places that have legalized drugs though. Are drugs like heroin and cocaine freely available to anyone who wants to buy them, or are they still illegal to sell or make but legal to possess or use.

    Wevs on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Aemilius do you use drugs?

    ok, fellas, will it be ad hominem or from authority?


    edit: pertinent quote

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Wevs wrote: »
    That's a fair point. You could have just called me a fuckstick though.

    I have a bit of a problem with the references to other places that have legalized drugs though. Are drugs like heroin and cocaine freely available to anyone who wants to buy them, or are they still illegal to sell or make but legal to possess or use.

    In Switzerland it's a heavily regulated system to distribute "clean" heroin and methodone to hard core addicts who qualify. They have to pay a nominal fee for the dose and they have to administer it at the clinic.

    Thus they don't need to resort to back alley dealers and theft to pay for the habit. They can still work at their jobs and they don't have to hide from their families so they still have a life to go back to. This makes it easier to get off the drug and stay off and removes the criminal element from the equation.

    edit: calling people fucksticks, while initially satisfying, also tends to make them less likly to listen to you.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    ALocksly wrote: »
    Wevs wrote: »
    That's a fair point. You could have just called me a fuckstick though.

    I have a bit of a problem with the references to other places that have legalized drugs though. Are drugs like heroin and cocaine freely available to anyone who wants to buy them, or are they still illegal to sell or make but legal to possess or use.

    In Switzerland it's a heavily regulated system to distribute "clean" heroin and methodone to hard core addicts who qualify. They have to pay a nominal fee for the dose and they have to administer it at the clinic.

    Thus they don't need to resort to back alley dealers and theft to pay for the habit. They can still work at their jobs and they don't have to hide from their families so they still have a life to go back to. This makes it easier to get off the drug and stay off and removes the criminal element from the equation.

    edit: calling people fucksticks, while initially satisfying, also tends to make them less likly to listen to you.

    Ok then, I think that's a good idea, and I don't think that that would really result in many more users. It sounds like a reasonable system. I just don't think that if all drugs were being sold like alcohol (as in, not just as a medical type thing to treat people who are already addicted) that their use would decrease.

    Wevs on
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    WorLordWorLord Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Aemilius do you use drugs?

    Before he answers, I'd like to know what difference that makes?

    WorLord on
    ...privately black.
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    XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    WorLord wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Aemilius do you use drugs?

    Before he answers, I'd like to know what difference that makes?

    I'm just curious if he'd be stopping use when it's legal since it will have lost its forbidden nature

    Xaquin on
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    Nexus ZeroNexus Zero Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I reckon drug use would increase slightly if it were to be legalised. Anyone who would do drugs already does, there's probably a marginal fringe of casual users currently deterred by prohibition. The point is harm-reduction. I don't give a shit if someone wants to inject heroin. If they do, I'd much rather it was cheaper and cleaner for them so they don't steal shit or kill themselves for no good reason. Currently in the UK we're having problems with cannabis. We all know that it's a pretty safe drug, but recently there was a flood of bud adulterated with glass and silicon beads. Let me tell you, smoking that hurts like hell. That is a direct result of the drug being illegal.

    It's just pissing me off that certain people here think that legalising heroin means we'd see it on the shelves of Wal-Mart.

    Edit: Xaquin, I think it's more a case of new users not bothering. If I was introduced to wine at an early age, I'd consider drinking a social thing, but as it was really hard to get, it was awesome when we found an adult to buy us a trolley full of different booze, and then take it out to a field and get slaughtered. Also, when I went into Uni, I noticed those who had never drunk before doing so a lot less responsibly than those who had.

    Nexus Zero on
    sig.jpg
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    WevsWevs __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2007
    Weed use is probably close to heavy drinking. It's much more widespread than you think.

    Yeah, but comparing heavy drinking to all marijuana use is a bit biased. Also, how widespread do I think it is.

    Wevs on
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I also do not think that all drugs should be sold like alcohol

    but given that weed is less dangerous than alcohol (it is almost, if not completely impossible to die from O.D.ing on pot) it should be at least as legal to get.

    The main lobbiests against it's legalization are the liquor industry, because they fear it would cut into their profits. Honestly though, the ones who would stand to lose the most from it's legalization would be the organized crime syndicates who profit from it.

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    ALockslyALocksly Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Xaquin wrote: »
    WorLord wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    Aemilius do you use drugs?

    Before he answers, I'd like to know what difference that makes?

    I'm just curious if he'd be stopping use when it's legal since it will have lost its forbidden nature

    are you gonna suddenly start using it because it's legal?

    ALocksly on
    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
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    MrMisterMrMister Jesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Honestly, who isn't for legalizing pot? Not most of California. Yeah, lowest law enforcement priority!

    That enthusiasm doesn't necessarily have to translate into a corresponding enthusiasm for legalizing crystal meth, though.

    (I still find it a scandal that congress is allowed to regulate individual production and consumption of pot).

    MrMister on
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