I like his toned down spider sense in MCU. Enhanced senses and reflexes leaves a lot more wiggle room for outcomes and doesn't result in him randomly not predicting something for plot convenience.
There isn't anything wrong with oversight. The thing is, normal humans just can't do it. Other supers would have to hold each other accountable. Which they do. Trying to apply US or UN law to gods, aliens, AI and hyper-intelligent meta humans... never gonna work. Just like with russian hacking, ISIS, Boko Haram, and more horrible real world tragedies, even when the world feels safest people still find ways to wage war.
It's the classic trolley problem for every hero:
Do you flip the track away from the 5 people, saving them but killing the sole man by choice?
Heroes know they can't save everyone, and yet with every major battle they had casualties. Ross puts them in a powerpoint and makes them feel bad about saving the world. He blames them for stopping an alien invasion, for finding out Hyrda, for looking for the real truth, but not doing it good enough.
When solider risks his life to save one, any of his comrades, he is a war hero. If a super hero stops a global takeover, they get yelled at for the building that fell over.
Why exactly can't humans be in charge of oversight again?
What, did the Super Soldier Serum somehow make Captain America more moral then the common riff-raff?
PS - If a soldier saves one of his comrades and in the process causes an entire building to fall over, they will be getting asked very seriously why that happened.
It did. Actually.
It didn't actually and if you think this you have like so fundamentally misunderstood Captain America as a character in the MCU I'm honestly baffled.
The entire point of his origin is the very opposite of what you are claiming here.
Abraham Erskine: Yeah, but... there were other... effects. The serum was not ready. But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows... compassion
They pretty fuckin' explicitly say that it amplifies the morality of the individual.
I think to a large extent arguing over precisely how super-people would be regulated in the real world is missing the point; it's like the 'why doesn't superman just push a turbine' question. In the world depicted in comics and film super heroes are 'human' and participate in human society, so the rules that apply to normal humans apply to them. It's maybe not how things would really go down but it's one of the assumptions we make for the sake of storytelling.
This is true in the civil war film; the actual content of the Accords is never really discussed, because it's irrelevant. The dilemma being presented is not over the endless permutations of superhero administrative rules, it's whether to have rules at all.
what civil war is really about is the proper source of legitimate authority; cap argues pretty much entirely for charisma, while stark favors the legal/rulemaking approach (though he has done a 180 on this over the course of several films)
But what if the deal is 100% as described?
There is almost no description of the deal in Civil War and the objection is not to the specifics but, as I've quoted like twice now directly from the movie, to the very idea of authority and accountability.
Captain America objects to the idea of anyone else telling him what to do because he thinks he knows best. That is what he states in the movie, very directly, as his motivation. (Which is then restated and reinforced later in the funeral scene where Rogers decides to rebel what with that being the entire purpose of that scene within the movie.)
I think it's safe to say that a panel gives the Avengers orders on where to go and what to do which basically turns them into a mercenary force for the most popular/power backed positions and that's really fucking bad. If it doesn't why did nobody say "Steve, that's absurd." You're acting like they were wholly reasonable and well crafted when none of the character reactions, or government precedent in the MCU (or reality) make that any more likely than a power grab that would use the Avengers for morally dubious causes.
I really get the feeling that the only thing the signatories would want to hear from "their" heroes is "what small fictional country would you like us to flatten today, in the name of freedom and/or Roxxon Oil?"
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
What accountability did Ross have after flattening a chunk of NY?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I can double understand Caps problem with the Accords because his previous movie was spent fighting secret supernazi infiltrators.
Spiderling's clearly much stronger than Cap. Cap struggles with Bucky physically while Spidey casually caught his metal arm when he tried to punch him. But the airport was also probably his first halfway real fight so he's kind of a shit fighter at that point and he wasn't really trying to hurt anyone, like all the other heavy hitters present at the time.
I like his toned down spider sense in MCU. Enhanced senses and reflexes leaves a lot more wiggle room for outcomes and doesn't result in him randomly not predicting something for plot convenience.
Oh he definitely has the spidey sense beyond just enhanced senses. There's a couple brief, but subtle, times when he uses it in the fight in Civil War. Like dodging a display that Bucky throws at him from behind, before he knew what it was or could see it.
Wanda's depicted as significantly more proficient with her power than cinematic Jean Grey. Any more powerful, and she'd be shutting down every conflict she's involved with, instantly.
Pete's spider-sense is kind of annoyingly downgraded in this incarnation. I always enjoyed Raimi's depiction of it- this omni-directional hyper-awareness that allowed Spidey to react as fast as his body would allow.
I hope Homecoming sees Peter learn to cope with the sensory overload and start using it oldschool.
Wanda basically has that power, but also Daddy issues. And Jean has that power, but is very afraid of it. Changing Wanda's backstory just makes her kind of boring, even if I like what they're doing with the character.
There isn't anything wrong with oversight. The thing is, normal humans just can't do it. Other supers would have to hold each other accountable. Which they do. Trying to apply US or UN law to gods, aliens, AI and hyper-intelligent meta humans... never gonna work. Just like with russian hacking, ISIS, Boko Haram, and more horrible real world tragedies, even when the world feels safest people still find ways to wage war.
It's the classic trolley problem for every hero:
Do you flip the track away from the 5 people, saving them but killing the sole man by choice?
Heroes know they can't save everyone, and yet with every major battle they had casualties. Ross puts them in a powerpoint and makes them feel bad about saving the world. He blames them for stopping an alien invasion, for finding out Hyrda, for looking for the real truth, but not doing it good enough.
When solider risks his life to save one, any of his comrades, he is a war hero. If a super hero stops a global takeover, they get yelled at for the building that fell over.
Why exactly can't humans be in charge of oversight again?
What, did the Super Soldier Serum somehow make Captain America more moral then the common riff-raff?
PS - If a soldier saves one of his comrades and in the process causes an entire building to fall over, they will be getting asked very seriously why that happened.
It did. Actually.
It didn't actually and if you think this you have like so fundamentally misunderstood Captain America as a character in the MCU I'm honestly baffled.
The entire point of his origin is the very opposite of what you are claiming here.
Abraham Erskine: Yeah, but... there were other... effects. The serum was not ready. But more important, the man. The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows... compassion
They pretty fuckin' explicitly say that it amplifies the morality of the individual.
No, they don't. That's not what that says and this just emphasises that you don't understand the point of his origin or even that scene. The whole point of his arc from the start of that movie to him getting the serum is that it's his body that is weak, but his heart and mind are strong. That he is already a good and brave man. The rest of that scene:
Whatever happens tomorrow, you must promise me one thing. You will stay who you are. Not a perfect soldier, but a good man.
I think to a large extent arguing over precisely how super-people would be regulated in the real world is missing the point; it's like the 'why doesn't superman just push a turbine' question. In the world depicted in comics and film super heroes are 'human' and participate in human society, so the rules that apply to normal humans apply to them. It's maybe not how things would really go down but it's one of the assumptions we make for the sake of storytelling.
This is true in the civil war film; the actual content of the Accords is never really discussed, because it's irrelevant. The dilemma being presented is not over the endless permutations of superhero administrative rules, it's whether to have rules at all.
what civil war is really about is the proper source of legitimate authority; cap argues pretty much entirely for charisma, while stark favors the legal/rulemaking approach (though he has done a 180 on this over the course of several films)
But what if the deal is 100% as described?
There is almost no description of the deal in Civil War and the objection is not to the specifics but, as I've quoted like twice now directly from the movie, to the very idea of authority and accountability.
Captain America objects to the idea of anyone else telling him what to do because he thinks he knows best. That is what he states in the movie, very directly, as his motivation. (Which is then restated and reinforced later in the funeral scene where Rogers decides to rebel what with that being the entire purpose of that scene within the movie.)
I think it's safe to say that a panel gives the Avengers orders on where to go and what to do which basically turns them into a mercenary force for the most popular/power backed positions and that's really fucking bad. If it doesn't why did nobody say "Steve, that's absurd." You're acting like they were wholly reasonable and well crafted when none of the character reactions, or government precedent in the MCU (or reality) make that any more likely than a power grab that would use the Avengers for morally dubious causes.
I'm acting like the movie tells us exactly, several times, what Rogers objection is. Which it does. And that objection is that someone else would be in control. He wants no one else to be able to tell him what he can and can't do.
And Rhodes does say Rogers is being absurd btw, although not using that exact word.
Rogers stance has has many problems as Stark's. Both of them are stubbornly refusing to compromise.
shryke on
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Dunno why people are getting the impression Spidey is underpowered in the MCU, he handily stops not just Bucky taking a swing, he also instantly brings a car going 30-40 miles an hour to a stop with no real effort. And in the Homecoming trailers, we see him keeping a
split-in-half ferry from falling completely apart by sheer muscle power.
Plus, he was holding up the weight of an entire airline jet bridge at one point, and that's going to weigh something like 10-20 tons and puts his strength right in line with the comics.
He is definitely plenty strong in the MCU, but we've only seen him briefly in one movie in a fight that didn't have anybody's lives on the line and he had explicit orders to just get in the way.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I suppose that is also the other major component - when you've got a superteam, probably not that hard to turn to them to solve problems that regular intelligence could deal with if given time and resources, and probably do it better. Big part of the Accords is probably that the US isn't allowed to just slip some info to Stark or Rogers and say "take a look at this", they're for world threatening threats only - not just a short cut that brings the Hulk as back up on a counter-espionage mission.
I like his toned down spider sense in MCU. Enhanced senses and reflexes leaves a lot more wiggle room for outcomes and doesn't result in him randomly not predicting something for plot convenience.
Oh he definitely has the spidey sense beyond just enhanced senses. There's a couple brief, but subtle, times when he uses it in the fight in Civil War. Like dodging a display that Bucky throws at him from behind, before he knew what it was or could see it.
I rewatched the big set piece fight scene recently, and it's clear his spider sense is, practically speaking, behaving like a mild precognition. When Ant Man is on Caps shield about to deck Spidey, Spidey ask if anyone else notices something. When he dodges the aforementioned display from Bucky, he briefly says "oh no" or something like that before the dodge.
Note I don't think his sense is psychic. He says he wears the goggles because all his senses have been turned up to 11. Best comic book logic functionality I can think of is he has a super sense of air pressure tied to super reflexes.
Wanda's depicted as significantly more proficient with her power than cinematic Jean Grey. Any more powerful, and she'd be shutting down every conflict she's involved with, instantly.
Pete's spider-sense is kind of annoyingly downgraded in this incarnation. I always enjoyed Raimi's depiction of it- this omni-directional hyper-awareness that allowed Spidey to react as fast as his body would allow.
I hope Homecoming sees Peter learn to cope with the sensory overload and start using it oldschool.
Dunno why people are getting the impression Spidey is underpowered in the MCU, he handily stops not just Bucky taking a swing, he also instantly brings a car going 30-40 miles an hour to a stop with no real effort. And in the Homecoming trailers, we see him keeping a
split-in-half ferry from falling completely apart by sheer muscle power.
Plus, he was holding up the weight of an entire airline jet bridge at one point, and that's going to weigh something like 10-20 tons and puts his strength right in line with the comics.
He is definitely plenty strong in the MCU, but we've only seen him briefly in one movie in a fight that didn't have anybody's lives on the line and he had explicit orders to just get in the way.
This is also an incredibly inexperienced Spidey. One of the earliest Homecoming trailers had him pulling an untested move on a bad guy and beimg moldy surprised it worked.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
You can have a system of monitoring the Avengers with some mechanisms for accountability WITHOUT having the Avengers be a controlled like the military of a nation state.
To be fair, Ross is a jackass and The Accords themselves are likely mostly shit, but the principle is sound. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
AND the collateral damage in the start of the movie happens without any assistance, action, or interference by Stark, period. Furthermore, the collateral damage is STEVE'S FAULT. He was blindsided by the mere mention of Bucky. Wanda acted to cover HIS fuck up and gets all the blame.
Make no mistake, I'd trust Cap with my life, no problem, but he seems to get away with SHIT in a way nobody else does.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. It doesn't change the fact that they've caused a significant amount of collateral damage in the commission of their self-appointed duties.
The MCU needed the accords to both be necessary AND be overbearing. If they weren't both then the conflict would have an easy to point to right side and wrong side.
They were necessary because nations need some way to encourage the Avengers to follow their laws and respect their authority when within their borders.
At the same time, if a nation is compromised such that their actions, or continued inaction results in a threat to other nations or the world at large the Avengers need to be able to supercede that nations authority.
I like his toned down spider sense in MCU. Enhanced senses and reflexes leaves a lot more wiggle room for outcomes and doesn't result in him randomly not predicting something for plot convenience.
Oh he definitely has the spidey sense beyond just enhanced senses. There's a couple brief, but subtle, times when he uses it in the fight in Civil War. Like dodging a display that Bucky throws at him from behind, before he knew what it was or could see it.
I rewatched the big set piece fight scene recently, and it's clear his spider sense is, practically speaking, behaving like a mild precognition. When Ant Man is on Caps shield about to deck Spidey, Spidey ask if anyone else notices something. When he dodges the aforementioned display from Bucky, he briefly says "oh no" or something like that before the dodge.
Note I don't think his sense is psychic. He says he wears the goggles because all his senses have been turned up to 11. Best comic book logic functionality I can think of is he has a super sense of air pressure tied to super reflexes.
It doesn't seem anywhere close to perfect either as he gets blindsided with projectiles like multiple times during that fight.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. It doesn't change the fact that they've caused a significant amount of collateral damage in the commission of their self-appointed duties.
The point is that literally no nation has the moral high ground in this scenario, and the individual Avengers have a better trak record of not being actual monsters.
Aside from the actual monster.
I feel some comments here are overlooking that the Avengers intervening at the start of Civil War prevented Crossbones from getting ahold of something that is being treated like a WMD (Wikipedia says it was a biological weapon).
Yes, Wanda's actions didn't save everyone, but she prevented loss of life all the same, and had the Avengers stood down or not been there at all, substantially more people would have been at risk or killed. While it is regrettable that some people were killed, their actions may have prevented orders of magnitude more deaths, depending on just how nasty that stuff was.
Note: I'm not arguing that shit didn't go sideways, or that there shouldn't be an inquiry (and perhaps repercussions), but in that setting, I think she made the best call possible in the moment.
Also, I think it was important that they weren't able to save everyone. The DC 'Murderverse' gets a lot of shit for assumed civilian loss of life, and Marvel gets (imo) deserved praise for making it clear that in the midst of battle they are striving to protect people as best they can. But it's not realistic to save them all, and it raises the stakes when they are not able to do so.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Rewatched a bunch of MCU films over the past few weeks. All of them, actually, including the Hulk. Prepping for that Spider Man!
1. Ant man and Dr Strange hold up really well to multiple viewings.
2. IM3 might be one of my favorites out of all of them
3. AOU is bad. It's only better than Hulk and Thor 2. Though it is kind of looking like Vision is a baddie, especially considering what he does in Cap 3.
4. The strength of the MCU films rests in the whole, as opposed to the best DC films and the best non-MCU Marvels which has the strength of the individual flick.
5. Avengers and Cap 1 have this weird similarity that the consequences of those films actually make the rewatch better. They're both heroic AF movies but they existed in a time in this universe where those kinds of actions could be done without much thought of the results. They've become The Lore as the series has moved on, and as it has moved forward and the characters get fleshed out, the sometimes subtle character actions and interactions make more sense.
Also, there's been documented cases where false flags were sent to both US and Russia during the cold war. In the case of the Cuban Missle Crisis, they once went through all the security checks and authorized the launch of 32 nuclear missles, but one solider refused to launch, and ordered other soliders to shoot the key-turners if they launched before a reconfirmation would come. Turns out, the info was wrong, and that man stopped WW3 from happening. And they prevented him from talking about it for decades, which sounds about right.
Sometimes following orders blindly is a really, really bad idea.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I like his toned down spider sense in MCU. Enhanced senses and reflexes leaves a lot more wiggle room for outcomes and doesn't result in him randomly not predicting something for plot convenience.
Oh he definitely has the spidey sense beyond just enhanced senses. There's a couple brief, but subtle, times when he uses it in the fight in Civil War. Like dodging a display that Bucky throws at him from behind, before he knew what it was or could see it.
I rewatched the big set piece fight scene recently, and it's clear his spider sense is, practically speaking, behaving like a mild precognition. When Ant Man is on Caps shield about to deck Spidey, Spidey ask if anyone else notices something. When he dodges the aforementioned display from Bucky, he briefly says "oh no" or something like that before the dodge.
Note I don't think his sense is psychic. He says he wears the goggles because all his senses have been turned up to 11. Best comic book logic functionality I can think of is he has a super sense of air pressure tied to super reflexes.
It doesn't seem anywhere close to perfect either as he gets blindsided with projectiles like multiple times during that fight.
Which i find more interesting, tbh.
That's the thing about the MCU is the heroes are really depowered compared to their comic counterparts.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. It doesn't change the fact that they've caused a significant amount of collateral damage in the commission of their self-appointed duties.
The point is that literally no nation has the moral high ground in this scenario, and the individual Avengers have a better trak record of not being actual monsters.
Aside from the actual monster.
That's irrelevant to the argument though. The moral high ground doesn't matter. Like, the fact that the US federal government has done some horrible shit over the years within it's own borders does not suddenly mean there are no laws in the US or that the federal government lacks the authority to make those laws. Your point does not make sense.
And each of those nations has actual accountability anyway. They are accountable to international law, as an example. Also, if they are say a democracy, to their own people.
The MCU needed the accords to both be necessary AND be overbearing. If they weren't both then the conflict would have an easy to point to right side and wrong side.
They were necessary because nations need some way to encourage the Avengers to follow their laws and respect their authority when within their borders.
At the same time, if a nation is compromised such that their actions, or continued inaction results in a threat to other nations or the world at large the Avengers need to be able to supercede that nations authority.
Yeah, we know the writers/directors intended neither side to be fully correct and that comes across in the movie. The Accords as they exist may not be perfect, and certainly Ross seems like a jackass, but the idea that the Avengers should be completely unaccountable to anyone but themselves and completely above every law on the planet is equally ridiculous.
Rogers refuses to cede any control because ultimately he doesn't trust anyone and doesn't want to have to answer to anyone and is completely refusing to compromise even a little bit on the idea of control or accountability for the Avengers. Stark is clearly dealing with some shit and also desperately trying to keep the only family he has left together. Both are making bad decisions and refusing to back down and ultimately it costs them all a lot.
I feel some comments here are overlooking that the Avengers intervening at the start of Civil War prevented Crossbones from getting ahold of something that is being treated like a WMD (Wikipedia says it was a biological weapon).
Yes, Wanda's actions didn't save everyone, but she prevented loss of life all the same, and had the Avengers stood down or not been there at all, substantially more people would have been at risk or killed. While it is regrettable that some people were killed, their actions may have prevented orders of magnitude more deaths, depending on just how nasty that stuff was.
Note: I'm not arguing that shit didn't go sideways, or that there shouldn't be an inquiry (and perhaps repercussions), but in that setting, I think she made the best call possible in the moment.
Well yeah, that's kinda the whole point. Maybe it was the right call. Maybe she fucked up. But there needs to be someone actually talking about that. Someone needs to look into the situation and determine that. But no one actually does. Wanda just goes back to Avengers HQ and goes to her room and no one holds her to account for what may or may not have been justified actions that killed a bunch of people.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
Except police have built in measures outside and inside their bureaucracy structure so when shit goes down they get benched and investigated - plus there's Internal Affairs. The MCU Avengers have none of this
That they killed more people that Wanda did, and the juries out on what she's done before Age of Ultron as a HYDRA operative (she had to be doing something right to get the enhancement treatment since she and QS drank the Hydra koolaide) is not a good reason for the team to have no accountability. she was experienced at killing when she was trying to ice the Avengers, she had no hesitation at all when in the field.
We agree that those countries need to be held accountable for their actions, yet why are the Avengers given a pass?
Stark didn't even get punishment from the Avengers structure (they literally don't have anything official which is bonkers) aside from a scolding for creating Ultron. (something which Wanda's covering up how tied in she is with him and her time aiding and abetting his mixer dues has been flat out ignored in- universe) He's at least trying to fix his past mistakes, Cap's learnt nothing.
Just rewatched Movie Bob's review of Civil War and there is a clip where Tony backhands Steve after just having learned the circumstances of his parents death and that Steve lied to him. After said backhand, Tony's faceplate pops up. The lighting makes the faceplate look like it has angry eyebrows and a scowl. Tony himself has a much less angry face. A little thing that may not register consciously at first, but definitely impacts the moment. I just think it's neat.
I think one of the problems with the accords, what little we know of them, is that both the real world and the MCU have demonstrated that nobody other than the Avengers should have control over the Avengers.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. It doesn't change the fact that they've caused a significant amount of collateral damage in the commission of their self-appointed duties.
The point is that literally no nation has the moral high ground in this scenario, and the individual Avengers have a better trak record of not being actual monsters.
Aside from the actual monster.
The Avengers were directly responsible for Ultron.
This isn't about the moral high ground, it's whether you believe in accountability. You don't get a free pass for fucking up and getting people killed and/ or property damage because you're a "good person."
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I really get the feeling that the only thing the signatories would want to hear from "their" heroes is "what small fictional country would you like us to flatten today, in the name of freedom and/or Roxxon Oil?"
Oh he definitely has the spidey sense beyond just enhanced senses. There's a couple brief, but subtle, times when he uses it in the fight in Civil War. Like dodging a display that Bucky throws at him from behind, before he knew what it was or could see it.
Pete's spider-sense is kind of annoyingly downgraded in this incarnation. I always enjoyed Raimi's depiction of it- this omni-directional hyper-awareness that allowed Spidey to react as fast as his body would allow.
I hope Homecoming sees Peter learn to cope with the sensory overload and start using it oldschool.
No, they don't. That's not what that says and this just emphasises that you don't understand the point of his origin or even that scene. The whole point of his arc from the start of that movie to him getting the serum is that it's his body that is weak, but his heart and mind are strong. That he is already a good and brave man. The rest of that scene:
The serum doesn't give him morality superpowers.
I'm acting like the movie tells us exactly, several times, what Rogers objection is. Which it does. And that objection is that someone else would be in control. He wants no one else to be able to tell him what he can and can't do.
And Rhodes does say Rogers is being absurd btw, although not using that exact word.
Rogers stance has has many problems as Stark's. Both of them are stubbornly refusing to compromise.
He is definitely plenty strong in the MCU, but we've only seen him briefly in one movie in a fight that didn't have anybody's lives on the line and he had explicit orders to just get in the way.
Presumably the exact same as anyone in the military chain of command.
Ross is a reckless lunatic.
Politicians are self-interested megalomaniacs.
SHIELD was compromised from the start.
The WSC, see above.
And the execution (no pun intended) and enforcement of the Accords up yields no evidence that the people beholden to them will have any say whatsoever in the letter of them.
It's "People who have zero fucking clue or perspective drafted these up without talking to you, this is how it is. Obey or retire." And, coming from Thunderbolt Ross, "retire" sounds a lot like "be hunted down and murdered in your sleep, because that's my hobby."
I mean, it's thoroughly reasonable for Tony to agree to oversight, since he's killed more innocent people than cancer. But, aside from Banner (notably absent), the rest of the team has only caused civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of saving the world from space gods and super-Nazis.
So, I mean, Tony can put himself in timeout if he wants. Meanwhile, the grownups can just do their jobs and be a little more careful.
Uh, the movie begins with the team causing civilian losses due to collateral damage in the commission of hunting down a Hydra agent they've been after for 6 months. And it's implied they've been running around the globe doing stuff for the past (according to wikipedia) year since Ultron happened. I would guess this has not been without collateral damage either and that it's not all world-ending space god threats.
I rewatched the big set piece fight scene recently, and it's clear his spider sense is, practically speaking, behaving like a mild precognition. When Ant Man is on Caps shield about to deck Spidey, Spidey ask if anyone else notices something. When he dodges the aforementioned display from Bucky, he briefly says "oh no" or something like that before the dodge.
Note I don't think his sense is psychic. He says he wears the goggles because all his senses have been turned up to 11. Best comic book logic functionality I can think of is he has a super sense of air pressure tied to super reflexes.
To be fair Jean Grey has two character traits
1. being bad with her powers
2. Dying
This is also an incredibly inexperienced Spidey. One of the earliest Homecoming trailers had him pulling an untested move on a bad guy and beimg moldy surprised it worked.
You can have a system of monitoring the Avengers with some mechanisms for accountability WITHOUT having the Avengers be a controlled like the military of a nation state.
To be fair, Ross is a jackass and The Accords themselves are likely mostly shit, but the principle is sound. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
AND the collateral damage in the start of the movie happens without any assistance, action, or interference by Stark, period. Furthermore, the collateral damage is STEVE'S FAULT. He was blindsided by the mere mention of Bucky. Wanda acted to cover HIS fuck up and gets all the blame.
Make no mistake, I'd trust Cap with my life, no problem, but he seems to get away with SHIT in a way nobody else does.
I submit to you that the Avengers, excluding Tony Stark and the Hulk, have caused less collateral damage in nine years than any one of the 117 Accords countries in six months. You do realize the U.S. is one of the signatories, right? Our police kill more random people in a year than Wanda did.
What's the last thing we saw Cap and Tony do, cinematiclly? I feel everything post CW has been about non-avengers.
I'm not sure what the point of this statement is. It doesn't change the fact that they've caused a significant amount of collateral damage in the commission of their self-appointed duties.
They were necessary because nations need some way to encourage the Avengers to follow their laws and respect their authority when within their borders.
At the same time, if a nation is compromised such that their actions, or continued inaction results in a threat to other nations or the world at large the Avengers need to be able to supercede that nations authority.
MWO: Adamski
It doesn't seem anywhere close to perfect either as he gets blindsided with projectiles like multiple times during that fight.
The point is that literally no nation has the moral high ground in this scenario, and the individual Avengers have a better trak record of not being actual monsters.
Aside from the actual monster.
Yes, Wanda's actions didn't save everyone, but she prevented loss of life all the same, and had the Avengers stood down or not been there at all, substantially more people would have been at risk or killed. While it is regrettable that some people were killed, their actions may have prevented orders of magnitude more deaths, depending on just how nasty that stuff was.
Note: I'm not arguing that shit didn't go sideways, or that there shouldn't be an inquiry (and perhaps repercussions), but in that setting, I think she made the best call possible in the moment.
Also, I think it was important that they weren't able to save everyone. The DC 'Murderverse' gets a lot of shit for assumed civilian loss of life, and Marvel gets (imo) deserved praise for making it clear that in the midst of battle they are striving to protect people as best they can. But it's not realistic to save them all, and it raises the stakes when they are not able to do so.
1. Ant man and Dr Strange hold up really well to multiple viewings.
2. IM3 might be one of my favorites out of all of them
3. AOU is bad. It's only better than Hulk and Thor 2. Though it is kind of looking like Vision is a baddie, especially considering what he does in Cap 3.
4. The strength of the MCU films rests in the whole, as opposed to the best DC films and the best non-MCU Marvels which has the strength of the individual flick.
5. Avengers and Cap 1 have this weird similarity that the consequences of those films actually make the rewatch better. They're both heroic AF movies but they existed in a time in this universe where those kinds of actions could be done without much thought of the results. They've become The Lore as the series has moved on, and as it has moved forward and the characters get fleshed out, the sometimes subtle character actions and interactions make more sense.
Sometimes following orders blindly is a really, really bad idea.
Which i find more interesting, tbh.
That's the thing about the MCU is the heroes are really depowered compared to their comic counterparts.
That's irrelevant to the argument though. The moral high ground doesn't matter. Like, the fact that the US federal government has done some horrible shit over the years within it's own borders does not suddenly mean there are no laws in the US or that the federal government lacks the authority to make those laws. Your point does not make sense.
And each of those nations has actual accountability anyway. They are accountable to international law, as an example. Also, if they are say a democracy, to their own people.
Yeah, we know the writers/directors intended neither side to be fully correct and that comes across in the movie. The Accords as they exist may not be perfect, and certainly Ross seems like a jackass, but the idea that the Avengers should be completely unaccountable to anyone but themselves and completely above every law on the planet is equally ridiculous.
Rogers refuses to cede any control because ultimately he doesn't trust anyone and doesn't want to have to answer to anyone and is completely refusing to compromise even a little bit on the idea of control or accountability for the Avengers. Stark is clearly dealing with some shit and also desperately trying to keep the only family he has left together. Both are making bad decisions and refusing to back down and ultimately it costs them all a lot.
Well yeah, that's kinda the whole point. Maybe it was the right call. Maybe she fucked up. But there needs to be someone actually talking about that. Someone needs to look into the situation and determine that. But no one actually does. Wanda just goes back to Avengers HQ and goes to her room and no one holds her to account for what may or may not have been justified actions that killed a bunch of people.
Except police have built in measures outside and inside their bureaucracy structure so when shit goes down they get benched and investigated - plus there's Internal Affairs. The MCU Avengers have none of this
That they killed more people that Wanda did, and the juries out on what she's done before Age of Ultron as a HYDRA operative (she had to be doing something right to get the enhancement treatment since she and QS drank the Hydra koolaide) is not a good reason for the team to have no accountability. she was experienced at killing when she was trying to ice the Avengers, she had no hesitation at all when in the field.
We agree that those countries need to be held accountable for their actions, yet why are the Avengers given a pass?
Stark didn't even get punishment from the Avengers structure (they literally don't have anything official which is bonkers) aside from a scolding for creating Ultron. (something which Wanda's covering up how tied in she is with him and her time aiding and abetting his mixer dues has been flat out ignored in- universe) He's at least trying to fix his past mistakes, Cap's learnt nothing.
The Avengers were directly responsible for Ultron.
This isn't about the moral high ground, it's whether you believe in accountability. You don't get a free pass for fucking up and getting people killed and/ or property damage because you're a "good person."
Because she broke the law by siding with Cap. She never got any consequences for Lagos from Cap.
Yep. We're just spinning our wheels webs until Spiderman.