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[Marvel MCU] thread wrapped up tight in some kinda web...

Dark Raven XDark Raven X The woods are lovelydark and deepRegistered User regular
MAHVEL MAKES THINGS AND I LIKE THEM

Here's what our futures look like;

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LUKE CAGE! This impossibly beautiful unbreakable hero for hire will be available to watch on Netflix September 30th!



Vrrm VRRRRRM

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Agents of SHIELD gets spicy with Ghost Rider, but not that Ghost Rider, a different one I guess. September 20th!

But maybe you like your superheroes on a bigger screen, no prob.

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Doctor Strange is going to appear on multiple screens at once, due to being set in several dimensions. In one of those dimensions, I thought of a funnier pun or something to put here. November 4th!



And then laaaater

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is sleepytimes and y'all ate the last thread too quick!

And miles to go before I sleep.
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Posts

  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Re: Theme talk in the last thread, the Iron Man 3 credits are a work of art and this can't be repeated enough.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Revenge of Purple Steve Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Re: Theme talk in the last thread, the Iron Man 3 credits are a work of art and this can't be repeated enough.

    So you're saying that you CAN dig it?

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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Luke Cage will have the best soundtrack of all the MCU stuff.

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  • TexiKenTexiKen Every day they will test you. Every day they will push you to the brink. You must fight them, DJ. Fight them.Registered User regular
    That would mean spending money on licensing and I don't know if Netflix will do that.

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  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    That would mean spending money on licensing and I don't know if Netflix will do that.

    For their own shit? Probably. Their licence deals will include streaming from the get-go by design, so it won't be an inconvenient price-hike like licensing an existing show would be.

    Besides, each Luke Cage episode is apparently named after a Gang Star song. I am old and do not know what significance this holds, but the youngs inform me that it is neat, and totally a real thing. So the likelihood of soundtrack is high.

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  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    It's telling that the most memorable soundtrack to any of these movies is GotG. I did enjoy the theme in Avengers 2, but to be honest the song that jumps out the most to me is actually the Raimi Spider-Man theme by Danny Elfman. We need more iconic themes like that.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    I kinda like the reversal that GotG did in a way, sure it may not have had it's own original song that sticks in my head , but I can no longer hear Come and get your love without seeing Chris Pratt dancing to it as Star Lord.

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  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    It's telling that the most memorable soundtrack to any of these movies is GotG. I did enjoy the theme in Avengers 2, but to be honest the song that jumps out the most to me is actually the Raimi Spider-Man theme by Danny Elfman. We need more iconic themes like that.

    Elfman's Spider-Man theme bugs me because there are hints of Elfman's Batman theme in it that I noticed the first time I heard it and I can't not hear them now.

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  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Leaked Spider-man: Homecoming scene

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Comparing the MCU sound tracks to the likes of Star Wars, BttF, Indian Jones and such is a bit like me being critical that my band didn't write Stairway to Heaven of Bohemian Rhapsody or Dream On or something.
    That kind of music comes around EXTREMELY rarely and it just plays in a different league than standard soundtracks.
    Its a silly silly argument.
    Marvel has attempted (and thus far pulled off) the hardest trick any movie studio has ever attempted. Creating an entire universe of linked movies that arent small indy films, but huge big budget block busters AND link that to ground breaking Netflix series, AND link that to a TV show and have it all make sense. With stars from one movie appearing in other movies that appear in other movies and it all building to a head more than a decade later.
    So i can forgive them that they didn't sink a lot of time into building super memorable theme songs. The sound tracks are mostly decent solid songs (GotG is the exception) that serve the purpose while watching the movie.

    What MCU DOES do is give us memorable moments of film. Phrases and situations and scenes that we'll all remember and quote.

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  • BogartBogart Newsflash, fuckwads: I'm a good person. Registered User regular
    It's not disparaging the achievements they've made to say hmm this aspect is kinda lacking, and he even goes out of his way to highlight it as an endemic problem with films in general, not just something Marvel does. A new piece of iconic music is even less likely to happen these days for the reasons he gives. It's not a silly argument at all: it's coherent, and easily understandable. If all people in charge of movies want is music that sounds like existing music then that's what they'll get.

    The new Star Trek movies managed a pretty great main theme, though.

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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Harry Potter had some strong, iconic musical themes, as did the Lord of the Rings films.

    And saying that a certain aspect of a film or a series of films serves the purpose and is good enough and therefore not worthy of critical discussion is silly. It's the slightly more attractive sibling of:
    v1F1hk3.png

    Thirith on
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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Comparing the MCU sound tracks to the likes of Star Wars, BttF, Indian Jones and such is a bit like me being critical that my band didn't write Stairway to Heaven of Bohemian Rhapsody or Dream On or something.

    No, it's like expecting a major studio in charge of one of the largest and culturally significant movie franchises to put a bit more effort in to one particular aspect of that franchise.

    Wait it's not like that, it is that.

  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Criticize away, sure, but keep it in its own league.

    Comparing them to the all time greats like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, BTTF, Superman etc is silly. Those are far far far away from normal and not even in the realm of what you can reasonably expect from a sound track. Its like asking why every basketball player isn't Michael Jordan.

    If any one expects sound tracks to regularly be like those they are really setting themselves up for disappointment.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    By and large, the MCU soundtracks are perfunctory. They're competent but forgettable. Out of 13 films I can hum one tune. Is that what is considered "serving the purpose"? And why only apply that standard to music, and not to acting, direction, writing, editing?

    "Avengers: Infinity War. It serves its purpose. Two thumbs up."

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  • TexiKenTexiKen Every day they will test you. Every day they will push you to the brink. You must fight them, DJ. Fight them.Registered User regular
    It's a numbers games though. Marvel's made 13 something movies now, almost over a decade, nothing really stands out except for the GOTG soundtrack.

    Pacific Rim, one movie, an iconic theme already. Pirates of the Caravan, 4 movies, one unifying theme. Wonder Woman is in BvS, even if you don't like the music she's got an instantly recognizable theme now.

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  • BogartBogart Newsflash, fuckwads: I'm a good person. Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    It seems like you don't really get the point, Ninjeff. He uses the 'sing the song to...' bit at the start to illustrate his wider point, that the music on Marvel movies (and many other movies) is not just 'not as memorable' as Star Wars, but is in many ways utterly forgettable.

    Take the Star Trek music from the rebooted movies. Not as iconic as Jaws or Jurassic Park, but still impressive and memorable and you might able to call it to mind. I can't do that with a single Marvel movie, and I've seen them all, often more than once. I can half-remember the Avengers theme, but that's it. I can, however, remember the X-Men theme tune.

    Or take Tim Burton's Batman. It's a pretty great Danny Elfman theme tune (and a fantastic soundtrack by Prince). Not as ear-catchingly iconic as, say Superman, but still recognisable and memorable in a way no Marvel movie music is. Take the opening music to The Thing, a barely there thrum of disquieting dread that isn't on everyone's lips but is most definitely memorable in a way that somehow no Marvel movie music is. Take any number of movie soundtracks over the years that manage to do more than somehow instantly disappear from your memory the second the movie is over.

    That somehow probably has something to do with temp tracks and a more widespread attitude towards film music in general from people in charge.

    Bogart on
  • BogartBogart Newsflash, fuckwads: I'm a good person. Registered User regular
    After listening to it once again it's obvious the memorable bit of the X-Men theme tune is terrific, just a propulsive, exciting piece of music.

    The Avengers theme I half remembered and listened to just kind of lies there limply saying 'will this do'? It's not bad, but it's not good either.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Put it this way. I could sing the tune of dwarven song of the Lonely Mountain from the Hobbit, which was not a particularly good movie. Because they used the music extremely well in that movie (also the entire LOTR series, but that's beside the point). Why shouldn't Marvel Music be better and be used better?

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    No, i get the point. As a musician, i get the point but i think its a misplaced point. I think they (the theme songs) serve the movies just fine. It is insanely hard to write super memorable stuff like, Say Lord of the Rings, or the Burton Batman, or Star Trek (reboot), and damn near impossible to write stuff as legendary and iconic as Star Wars (for example). Writing legendary theme songs like Star Wars isn't something that can be expected, well, ever. Even John Williams couldn't replicate it in Force Awakens.

    I think the Avengers song is memorable (humming it right now) but i also get that as a whole, there isn't a lot of memorable themes in the MCU, i think that's ok and not really a detraction from the quality of the movies at all. Guardians aside, none of the MCU movies have really attempted to make it a focal point, and what IS there works just fine to move the film and evoke emotions needed at any given time. It clearly isn't where MCU put their money AND THAT'S OK.
    Because they DID put time and effort in to legendary CASTING instead (which i'd argue is more important for the thing they're trying to do). So given that you cannot allocate all funds and energy to all things i find the efforts of theme songs in the MCU to be perfectly serviceable and fine for what they do. None of them take away form the movies (in my opinion) so they do the job they need to do. And thats fine, because its clear to me that Marvel spent that time and money on other things.

    EDIT: Of note, the GotG soundtrack is amazing, but its all previously written music, so I dont count the "quality" in my argument exactly, since picking good music and writing good music from scratch are two totally different things.

    Ninjeff on
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  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Ninjeff, everything you write may be true, but it's also immensely odd, because it could be applied to any single aspect of these films. Doing anything really well is hard. You may say that they got A, B and C right, so they can be serviceable and mediocre with respect to X, Y and Z. Fair enough, but I look at it the other way around: if a film gets certain things right but is serviceable only in other respects, those things pull it down and make it more mediocre and disposable. And at that point all criticism and all discussion becomes redundant as soon as a film does something well enough.

    And your point concerning resources is a weird one: how much do the MCU films cost? Do you honestly think that they have mediocre music because of a lack of resources? How large a part of the overall budget do you think goes to the composer?
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Put it this way. I could sing the tune of dwarven song of the Lonely Mountain from the Hobbit, which was not a particularly good movie. Because they used the music extremely well in that movie (also the entire LOTR series, but that's beside the point). Why shouldn't Marvel Music be better and be used better?
    I agree with you, but I also have to admit that half the time when I start to hum the dwarven song in my head, it ends up as Michael Jackson's "Beat It".

    Thirith on
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  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X The woods are lovely dark and deepRegistered User regular
    Guardians score is also one of the better ones. They appear to have been stricken from YouTube within the day, since I was listening to it last night and it's gone now... but Sacrifice, Final Battle and Black Tears are all great tracks.

    Nova Corps even got their own little cue that made for a cool moment when they showed up at the end.

    And miles to go before I sleep.
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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Thirith wrote: »
    Ninjeff, everything you write may be true, but it's also immensely odd, because it could be applied to any single aspect of these films. Doing anything really well is hard. You may say that they got A, B and C right, so they can be serviceable and mediocre with respect to X, Y and Z. Fair enough, but I look at it the other way around: if a film gets certain things right but is serviceable only in other respects, those things pull it down and make it more mediocre and disposable.

    And your point concerning resources is a weird one: how much do the MCU films cost? Do you honestly think that they have mediocre music because of a lack of resources? How large a part of the overall budget do you think goes to the composer?
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Put it this way. I could sing the tune of dwarven song of the Lonely Mountain from the Hobbit, which was not a particularly good movie. Because they used the music extremely well in that movie (also the entire LOTR series, but that's beside the point). Why shouldn't Marvel Music be better and be used better?
    I agree with you, but I also have to admit that half the time when I start to hum the dwarven song in my head, it ends up as Michael Jackson's "Beat It".

    Well, it depends on the MCU film, but it looks like any where form $140 million to $250 million per film. And, as i said considering the casting (especially in a film like Avengers, or Civil War) i would say the bulk of the $$ goes to cast, effects (stunts/cgi), sets, costuming, and then stuff like music rights etc etc in that (probable) order.
    Marketing aside since that doesn't have any impact on production quality. So, yes, i'd argue that they dont have the money for a Williams sound track. I'm sure they'd love to have one, but that isn't the focus.
    Not to mention music rights and royalties to X amount of composers over what, 20 movies and characters all popping in and out of various different films.....the legal rights stuff would be a nightmare i'd think.

  • ThirithThirith Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Marketing aside since that doesn't have any impact on production quality. So, yes, i'd argue that they dont have the money for a Williams sound track. I'm sure they'd love to have one, but that isn't the focus.
    Not to mention music rights and royalties to X amount of composers over what, 20 movies and characters all popping in and out of various different films.....the legal rights stuff would be a nightmare i'd think.
    The Harry Potter films had four different composers, and that seemed to work.

    Anyway, I don't think we'll come to any common ground here, but I still find your basic argument puzzling, because it seems to boil down to this: if a film has no ambition in a particular regard, it's silly to criticise it for this lack of ambition. And this does translate into mediocrity. We're not asking Annie Hall to have better action scenes or Die Hard to feature more Bergmanesque characterisation and symbolism. We're saying that a series of films that throws hundreds of millions of dollars at the screen and does really well in certain respects but quite clearly doesn't measure up in other respects could do better and would be improved if it did.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Revenge of Purple Steve Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    It's a numbers games though. Marvel's made 13 something movies now, almost over a decade, nothing really stands out except for the GOTG soundtrack.

    Pacific Rim, one movie, an iconic theme already. Pirates of the Caravan, 4 movies, one unifying theme. Wonder Woman is in BvS, even if you don't like the music she's got an instantly recognizable theme now.

    The guy who composed Pacific Rim also composed Iron Man 1.

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  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Criticize away, sure, but keep it in its own league.

    Comparing them to the all time greats like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, BTTF, Superman etc is silly. Those are far far far away from normal and not even in the realm of what you can reasonably expect from a sound track. Its like asking why every basketball player isn't Michael Jordan.

    If any one expects sound tracks to regularly be like those they are really setting themselves up for disappointment.

    I'm not content with maintaining continuously low expectations for all time.

    Thirith
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    It's a numbers games though. Marvel's made 13 something movies now, almost over a decade, nothing really stands out except for the GOTG soundtrack.

    Pacific Rim, one movie, an iconic theme already. Pirates of the Caravan, 4 movies, one unifying theme. Wonder Woman is in BvS, even if you don't like the music she's got an instantly recognizable theme now.

    The guy who composed Pacific Rim also composed Iron Man 1.

    I think as, or perhaps more, important than the specific music is the actual incorporation of the music into the movie. Avengers (and most of the Marvel movies) seem to have their soundtracks running as ambient noise while stuff happens, dialogue occurs, and things explode. Contrast that to Fury Road, where there are sections where the soundtrack comes to the fore for long periods of time.

    The other bit is the synchronization of the soundtrack to the actions in the movie. Bloodbag in Fury Road has the drumbeat going along and getting louder as you pan past the Doof Wagon, and then as Doof comes into view you get the guitar really kicking in. And flames. Empire Strikes Back has the best example (IMO), with The Asteroid Field having flourishes and whatnots that synch with the flight of both the Falcon and the TIEs. Then you've got a previously mentioned Star Lord dancing to Come and Get Your Love (or O-o-h Child, your choice).

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Thirith wrote: »
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Marketing aside since that doesn't have any impact on production quality. So, yes, i'd argue that they dont have the money for a Williams sound track. I'm sure they'd love to have one, but that isn't the focus.
    Not to mention music rights and royalties to X amount of composers over what, 20 movies and characters all popping in and out of various different films.....the legal rights stuff would be a nightmare i'd think.
    The Harry Potter films had four different composers, and that seemed to work.

    Anyway, I don't think we'll come to any common ground here, but I still find your basic argument puzzling, because it seems to boil down to this: if a film has no ambition in a particular regard, it's silly to criticise it for this lack of ambition. And this does translate into mediocrity. We're not asking Annie Hall to have better action scenes or Die Hard to feature more Bergmanesque characterisation and symbolism. We're saying that a series of films that throws hundreds of millions of dollars at the screen and does really well in certain respects but quite clearly doesn't measure up in other respects could do better and would be improved if it did.

    Because the argument doesn't seem to be that they are bad, just that they aren't great.
    What they are, is serviceable in the task they set out to do. Which is fine, because the MCU so clearly excels at other things. And because the MCU isn't just ONE movie, or even ONE "franchise" of characters. Its dozens spread across 20 some odd movies all with varying sequels and main themes, all wrapping into one story and one shared universe. I give the "sound track" a pass on simply being serviceable BECAUSE the thing the MCU is trying to do is so extrordinary and unprecedented. They clearly focused on other things and thats ok to me. Because none of the soundtracks are bad, none of them make the movies worse and that is ok.
    As bits of music, lots of them are very well composed, and they do an admirable job of filling the void where needed. The music itself is fine. If the argument is that they just aren't super memorable then it just doesn't seem like much of an argument to me. The sound tracks job is not to inherently be memorable (in a hummable sense). Its to serve the film thematically.
    *The Avengers theme being a different thing, as a memorable theme there DOES serve a purpose. Of course, i'd advocate that the Avengers theme is the most memorable so....*

    Anyway, its like building a character in an RPG. There is only so many points you can award to different attributes. You cant max out every stat. (given a limited time/budget etc) Some movie go for an "all around build" and nail everything pretty well. MCU dumped massive points into casting and concept and then filled out everything else as they could. Music took the short straw on the stat list and that's perfectly ok to me*.
    Not even Star Wars has been as ambitious in its reach of universe building movie wise. Nothing ever has. So when blazing new trails its ok to not get everything perfect.


    Edit: *perfectly ok to me because none of the sound tracks are bad. they just aren't earth shattering-ly great. If they were bad, i could see the argument.

    Ninjeff on
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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    It's not a null sum game though. the acting doesn't get worse when the editing and implementation of the music gets better.

    And I don't really get the money argument when it comes to something like the temp score being more or less copied for the final score. They still have to pay the composer.

    honovere on
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    Because the argument doesn't seem to be that they are bad, just that they aren't great.

    Pretty much.

    If they want to set out to be mildly above average then that's their choice. It doesn't change that they could be better and many people would like them to be.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    They should have just given each of the Avengers their own AC/DC track.

    Iron Man; Shoot to Thrill
    Thor; Thunderstruck
    Hawkeye; Big Balls
    Black Widow; Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap

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  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Well, anyway I've said my piece on the matter. I dont see anything wrong with the MCU themes.

    On to other things: Anyone know when SHIELD comes back?

  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X The woods are lovely dark and deepRegistered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Well, anyway I've said my piece on the matter. I dont see anything wrong with the MCU themes.

    On to other things: Anyone know when SHIELD comes back?

    is in the OP! September 20th. ;D

    And miles to go before I sleep.
  • NinjeffNinjeff Registered User regular
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Well, anyway I've said my piece on the matter. I dont see anything wrong with the MCU themes.

    On to other things: Anyone know when SHIELD comes back?

    is in the OP! September 20th. ;D

    DOH! so it is. lol

  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    The thing about the other memorable themes is that part of why they are so memorable is because the movie kind of pauses and no one is talking. In Star Wars all you have for a bit is the title slowly drifting away, then you have the text scroll. LOTR fellowship theme comes when you see the fellowship do nothing more than walk over a ridge. Jaws theme comes when the only thing happening is the shark is just cruising around. In the MCU, there is non-stop snappy dialogue and complex things are always happening. It's a deliberate decision, it's part of why Marvel Studios is successful, and it means no memorable themes, no matter who scores it.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    I just started catching up on the Movie Thread. I promise I'm not just parroting the discussion there. I'm just LTTP, as per usual.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    They should have just given each of the Avengers their own AC/DC track.

    Iron Man; Shoot to Thrill
    Thor; Thunderstruck
    Hawkeye; Big Balls
    Black Widow; Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap

    I will say that Shoot to Thrill does make me think of Iron Man. I always go back to the opening of 2 or his arrival in the Avengers

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  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka What Would Nyarlathotep Do? Registered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Comparing the MCU sound tracks to the likes of Star Wars, BttF, Indian Jones and such is a bit like me being critical that my band didn't write Stairway to Heaven of Bohemian Rhapsody or Dream On or something.

    No, it's like expecting a major studio in charge of one of the largest and culturally significant movie franchises to put a bit more effort in to one particular aspect of that franchise.

    Wait it's not like that, it is that.
    Quid wrote: »
    Ninjeff wrote: »
    Criticize away, sure, but keep it in its own league.

    Comparing them to the all time greats like Star Wars, Indiana Jones, BTTF, Superman etc is silly. Those are far far far away from normal and not even in the realm of what you can reasonably expect from a sound track. Its like asking why every basketball player isn't Michael Jordan.

    If any one expects sound tracks to regularly be like those they are really setting themselves up for disappointment.

    I'm not content with maintaining continuously low expectations for all time.
    Not everything needs to be scored by John Williams. I love his scores, but he would never have given us something like Winter Soldier or Iron Man. Being okay with everything not being up to the level of the guy who's so well known he's the only movie composer who's a household name is not a low expectation.

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  • CowSharkCowShark Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    I really think Iron Man's music would be something people remembered if they'd kept the themes and composer from the first or third movie for all three of his films. Both those guys put down some great tracks, but since it's just a totally different score every time, those songs don't settle in like they could.

    CowShark on
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  • KPCKPC Registered User regular
    I guess my contention is that I disagree with the video that the MCU doesn't have great, (potentially) memorable themes, but I do agree with the video that they aren't utilizing the music of the MCU to its fullest potential.

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