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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    I'm just wondering if there would be the same reaction if the default was a female model and the question was about adding a male model.

    I'm thinking no.

    Honestly I think it would depend on the character in question. As in, are they an actual character? Or are they just an empty shell that is supposed to be representative of the player?

    If it's just a Subnautica style empty shell I don't think people would care, but if it was an actual character? Didn't we just have people saying they wouldn't buy a Beyond Good and Evil sequel if they replaced Jade with a big burly dude?

    I think that the "representation in videogames" subject is usually a complete shitshow on all sides, but the more I learn about Subnautica the more it seems like just throwing some tits on the player model and hiring an actual for reals woman to record a few player sounds wouldn't be a huge stumbling block to development.

    Ideally every game would have a fullblown Saints Row style character creation system but unfortunately not every game has a full blown Saints Row style budget.

    SmokeStacks on
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    akajaybayakajaybay Registered User regular
    I'm just wondering if there would be the same reaction if the default was a female model and the question was about adding a male model.
    I'm thinking no.
    These days it probably would to some degree, but generally no.
    The better question is why do you think there wouldn't be the same reaction?
    I think it wouldn't get the same reaction because the current state of representation of women in games is vastly different from that of men.

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    BeryllineBerylline One Tiara to rule them all Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    I'm just wondering if there would be the same reaction if the default was a female model and the question was about adding a male model.

    I'm thinking no.

    Honestly, I think it's a bit hard to compare the two. How many sandbox-y type games (which don't have character creation or a character with any type of background/personality) make you play as a woman with no man option? It's not a genre I follow closely, but I'm not aware of any like that (although they certainly could exist). Lack of female representation in games has been pretty common. Lack of male representation, not so much. That pattern is a big part of why it's an issue for people.

    Edit: And I took a long time typing that and other people have covered it.

    Berylline on
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    GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    heenato wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    @heenato

    I have not played princess maker 2 but reading the suggestions in the prior thread it's probably a good idea to do the daycare thing before allowong the drinking thing.
    Psh. If I cant make my god gifted daughter into the literal queen of hell what's the point?

    Look, i am just saying that she better raise the prince of hell right.

    wbBv3fj.png
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    DyasAlureDyasAlure SeattleRegistered User regular
    More Riven. I have spent a lot of time doing nothing in that game.

    My%20Steam.png?psid=1My%20Twitch%20-%20Mass%20Effect.png?psid=1=1My%20Youtube.png?psid=1
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    Berylline wrote: »
    I'm just wondering if there would be the same reaction if the default was a female model and the question was about adding a male model.

    I'm thinking no.

    Honestly, I think it's a bit hard to compare the two. How many sandbox-y type games (which don't have character creation or a character with any type of background/personality) make you play as a woman with no man option? It's not a genre I follow closely, but I'm not aware of any like that (although they certainly could exist). Lack of female representation in games has been pretty common. Lack of male representation, not so much. That pattern is a big part of why it's an issue for people.

    Edit: And I took a long time typing that and other people have covered it.

    Do the two recent Tomb Raider games count? They're a super majority, but they are, well, super.

    camo_sig2.png
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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    TR2013 caught a lot of flack from certain segments of the internet for being "torture porn" due to Lara's death scenes, so it's a complicated example.

    Then again, Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness was the one game in the (main) Tomb Raider series to feature a playable male character and it was total garbage.

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    CorpekataCorpekata Registered User regular
    I imagine Lara Croft is disqualified by "character with any type of background/personality"

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    BeryllineBerylline One Tiara to rule them all Registered User regular
    jclast wrote: »
    Berylline wrote: »
    I'm just wondering if there would be the same reaction if the default was a female model and the question was about adding a male model.

    I'm thinking no.

    Honestly, I think it's a bit hard to compare the two. How many sandbox-y type games (which don't have character creation or a character with any type of background/personality) make you play as a woman with no man option? It's not a genre I follow closely, but I'm not aware of any like that (although they certainly could exist). Lack of female representation in games has been pretty common. Lack of male representation, not so much. That pattern is a big part of why it's an issue for people.

    Edit: And I took a long time typing that and other people have covered it.

    Do the two recent Tomb Raider games count? They're a super majority, but they are, well, super.

    I wasn't talking about female protagonists in general in that post. I was talking about characters that are a total blank slate, no background, personality, probably not even a name. Basically just the body you use to move around the game - a character model and maybe a few short vocalizations. I just wanted to point out that when you have no choice on gender in that kind of game, you're usually going to be playing as a man. And I get that a lot of people don't understand why that's problem, but for many people that are not well represented in their media, it is a problem, or at least an annoyance. (But yes, the Tomb Raider games are quite fun!)

    I'm sure you're all as exhausted of this topic as I am though, so I'll leave it there. <3

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    SokpuppetSokpuppet You only yoyo once Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    I thought I was safe.

    jfdh4p949ant.jpg

    header.jpg?t=1454722109

    I was wrong.


    Iolo! Thank you!

    Sokpuppet on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    TR2013 caught a lot of flack from certain segments of the internet for being "torture porn" due to Lara's death scenes, so it's a complicated example.

    Then again, Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness was the one game in the (main) Tomb Raider series to feature a playable male character and it was total garbage.

    That was partially due to some of the language from the devs surrounding the game, and partially due to how.. infatuated that game was with the horrible Lara deaths.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    it was a specific option versus something very generic
    would you like us to improve
    a) character creation with more options
    b) core gameplay elements

    yeah the question posed as it was above (behind?) was very targetted for a response.

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    AistanAistan Tiny Bat Registered User regular
    Reason 15 for why it was a bad poll: for the people who want to play as a female character, adding a playable female character *is* improving the core game.

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    TR2013 caught a lot of flack from certain segments of the internet for being "torture porn" due to Lara's death scenes, so it's a complicated example.

    Then again, Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness was the one game in the (main) Tomb Raider series to feature a playable male character and it was total garbage.

    That was partially due to some of the language from the devs surrounding the game, and partially due to how.. infatuated that game was with the horrible Lara deaths.

    The horrible Lara deaths weren't an arguing point at all. Action heroes get fucked up, if you want a female action hero you have to deal with the fact that she's going to get her dome rocked from time to time. You've been able to accidentally fall into pungee pits or into spikes and watch Lara struggle before dying, or swan dive off of a tall height and break Lara's neck (complete with a horrible CRUNK sound) since the first game. Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    The developer language was pretty weird though. All that stuff they said about gamers "wanting to protect Lara" was grade a cringeworthy.

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

    Is Gears of War fetishistic? What about Resident Evil 4? Dead Space? The Last of Us?

    If the only defining factor between "gore" and "fetishism" is gender than I dunno man.

    SmokeStacks on
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    Kotaku reports a game we mocked is tearing up the steam sales charts.

    Here's a clue.


    ASSASSASSASSASSASSASSASSASS PUZZLE ASSASSASSASSASSASSASSASSASSBoobs

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

    Is Gears of War fetishistic? What about Resident Evil 4? The Last of Us?

    If the only defining factor between "gore" and "fetishism" is gender than I dunno man.

    My entire point is that gender is not the only defining factor.

    When you are killed in Gears of War, how is it presented? Do you have several seconds of Marcus Fenix struggling futilely, trying to keep his puncture wounds from letting his life escape?

    In Resident Evil 4, does Leon ever express fear or horror at the situation he is in? Despite the overwhelming number of enemies and horrors he is put up against, is he ever presented as anything less than capable and self-assured? Does he ever gasp in horror or display vulnerabilities?

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    JeixJeix Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

    Is Gears of War fetishistic? What about Resident Evil 4? Dead Space? The Last of Us?

    If the only defining factor between "gore" and "fetishism" is gender than I dunno man.

    Dead Space did have some brutal ways to die. Unique death sequences can be a lot of fun, I think it was a nice addition to Tomb Raider.

    I have never seen as many ways to lose a game as there was in this classic
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLSviwsbA_k

    Although that might just be because I tried playing it without a guide at first. Luckily, I had a friend who printed one off from a BBS or something so I didn't have to call the hint line. I don't think I have ever gotten as stuck in any game as I did during the King's Quest series.

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

    Is Gears of War fetishistic? What about Resident Evil 4? The Last of Us?

    If the only defining factor between "gore" and "fetishism" is gender than I dunno man.

    My entire point is that gender is not the only defining factor.

    When you are killed in Gears of War, how is it presented? Do you have several seconds of Marcus Fenix struggling futilely, trying to keep his puncture wounds from letting his life escape?

    In Resident Evil 4, does Leon ever express fear or horror at the situation he is in? Despite the overwhelming number of enemies and horrors he is put up against, is he ever presented as anything less than capable and self-assured? Does he ever gasp in horror or display vulnerabilities?

    First of all, yes. Also, yes.

    But you're making an error in comparing Lara Croft to Marcus Fenix or Leon Kennedy. Leon is a special agent who was specifically chosen by the President to rescue his daughter. Marcus Fenix is a generic roided out soldier who in the first game gets out after spending years in an incredibly rough prison. Lara Croft in TR2013 is a 21 year old girl fresh out of college on her first big adventure.

    Out of those three, who do you think is likely to be the most afraid? Even considering that, Fenix and Leon still show fear, and they still panic. They don't break down and require a peptalk from their mentor like Lara did in the beginning, but to be fair you don't send a guy who is prone to emotional breakdowns to rescue the President's daughter.

    All of this is ignoring the fact that Lara gives in TR2013 just as much as she gets. Are you forgetting how many times she buries her ice axe in a guy's knee and then stabs him in the throat with an arrow moments after telling him and his friends that they had better run because she is coming for them?

    The entire point of Tomb Raider is that a weak, terrified little girl gets thrown into a meatgrinder and is reborn on the other side as an alpha predator. Of course it's going to be gruesome, sanitizing the violence in that game would have destroyed the theme. It's important to remember that the tagline for the game was "A survivor is born".

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

    Is Gears of War fetishistic? What about Resident Evil 4? The Last of Us?

    If the only defining factor between "gore" and "fetishism" is gender than I dunno man.

    My entire point is that gender is not the only defining factor.

    When you are killed in Gears of War, how is it presented? Do you have several seconds of Marcus Fenix struggling futilely, trying to keep his puncture wounds from letting his life escape?

    In Resident Evil 4, does Leon ever express fear or horror at the situation he is in? Despite the overwhelming number of enemies and horrors he is put up against, is he ever presented as anything less than capable and self-assured? Does he ever gasp in horror or display vulnerabilities?

    First of all, yes. Also, yes.

    But you're making an error in comparing Lara Croft to Marcus Fenix or Leon Kennedy. Leon is a special agent who was specifically chosen by the President to rescue his daughter. Marcus Fenix is a generic roided out soldier who in the first game gets out after spending years in an incredibly rough prison. Lara Croft in TR2013 is a 21 year old girl fresh out of college on her first big adventure.

    Out of those three, who do you think is likely to be the most afraid? Even considering that, Fenix and Leon still show fear, and they still panic. They don't break down and require a peptalk from their mentor like Lara did in the beginning, but to be fair you don't send a guy who is prone to emotional breakdowns to rescue the President's daughter.

    All of this is ignoring the fact that Lara gives in TR2013 just as much as she gets. Are you forgetting how many times she buries her ice axe in a guy's knee and then stabs him in the throat with an arrow moments after telling him and his friends that they had better run because she is coming for them?

    The entire point of Tomb Raider is that a weak, terrified little girl gets thrown into a meatgrinder and is reborn on the other side as an alpha predator. Of course it's going to be gruesome, sanitizing the violence in that game would have destroyed the theme. It's important to remember that the tagline for the game was "A survivor is born".

    You're the one who brought up their games as comparisons in the first place!

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    You're the one who brought up their games as comparisons in the first place!

    I compared the level of violence/gore in each game, not the 'emotional vulnerabilities' of each leading character, which is what you did.

    SmokeStacks on
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    an_altan_alt Registered User regular
    I like games with female MCs, but every time I see headlines finding some fault in a female character, I see a marketing team meeting:

    "Well, we have two choices. First, we can have the devs change her to a male and redo the story hooks to avoid any potential backlash. Second, we could really amp it up and hope the outrage spreads from the games sites to the traditional media."

    Sigh...

    Pony wrote:
    I think that the internet has been for years on the path to creating what is essentially an electronic Necronomicon: A collection of blasphemous unrealities so perverse that to even glimpse at its contents, if but for a moment, is to irrevocably forfeit a portion of your sanity.
    Xbox - PearlBlueS0ul, Steam
    If you ever need to talk to someone, feel free to message me. Yes, that includes you.
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    jclastjclast Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nobody complains when a male character gets the shit kicked out of him or dies a gory death.

    Because it's usually not presented in a way that can be described as "fetishistic."

    Is Gears of War fetishistic? What about Resident Evil 4? The Last of Us?

    If the only defining factor between "gore" and "fetishism" is gender than I dunno man.

    My entire point is that gender is not the only defining factor.

    When you are killed in Gears of War, how is it presented? Do you have several seconds of Marcus Fenix struggling futilely, trying to keep his puncture wounds from letting his life escape?

    In Resident Evil 4, does Leon ever express fear or horror at the situation he is in? Despite the overwhelming number of enemies and horrors he is put up against, is he ever presented as anything less than capable and self-assured? Does he ever gasp in horror or display vulnerabilities?

    No, but I would argue that makes Lara the better character honestly. And a better comparison to her, Nathan Drake, despite the lighter tone of the Uncharted games, does react in a similar way sometimes. And when he's teamed up his coop buddy loses their shit when Nathan bites it.

    Also, now I'm sad that I can't think of an open-world game where the only or default character model is a lady.

    camo_sig2.png
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I found there was a disconnect with how Lara was presented throughout TR2013 in combat situations, with how the QTE deaths were handled. Can you meet me halfway at that?

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    Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I found there was a disconnect with how Lara was presented throughout TR2013 in combat situations, with how the QTE deaths were handled. Can you meet me halfway at that?

    Lara in general sometimes comes across as uneven. Trying to explore a non-military/police background for action protagonists is still pretty uncommon and ones that aren't emotionless ciphers even rarer. But the game design insists on throwing tons of dudes for you to kill without blinking so yeah, pretty big disconnect at times. I really like the rebooted character, especially how she seems to enjoy learning stuff when she's not exploding priceless artifacts and sites, but the need to be an Uncharted game often gets in the way.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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    HounHoun Registered User regular
    I remember wondering at the time if the problem was, in part, that Tomb Raider 2013 wanted to present a story in which Lara has to learn to go from average college student to brutal efficient killer... but as long time gamers, we're already brutal efficient virtual killers.

    So, yes, the moment we have control of Lara, she's inheriting our years of experience, but in cutscenes, she's still that untested kid.

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    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Houn wrote: »
    I remember wondering at the time if the problem was, in part, that Tomb Raider 2013 wanted to present a story in which Lara has to learn to go from average college student to brutal efficient killer... but as long time gamers, we're already brutal efficient virtual killers.

    So, yes, the moment we have control of Lara, she's inheriting our years of experience, but in cutscenes, she's still that untested kid.

    This is actually a really good way of looking at it.

    SmokeStacks on
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I found there was a disconnect with how Lara was presented throughout TR2013 in combat situations, with how the QTE deaths were handled. Can you meet me halfway at that?

    In my case, I would go more than half-way on that to whole hearted agreement. The one massive flaw with Tomb Raider 2013 is how you go from her crying and being hugely upset at killing a person, to less than 5 seconds later "+15 XP for headshot" multiple times. You go from a period of not being a typical video game protagonist who murders hundreds of people, to being a typical video game protagonist who headshots people left right and center constantly in less than 5 minutes of gameplay (it might be less, I've never timed it - I'm actually not exaggerating for effect here). However, cutscene Lara is still very abloo abloo about this whole murdering thing, despite going from never doing it to being a professional - depending on the players skill level I concede - extremely rapidly. Not to mention how many people you then have to mow down in quick succession immediately afterwards.

    It made me miss the old games to a degree, because there wasn't the focus on human enemies and it didn't seem so incoherent for Lara to be murdering a bunch of wild (generally aggressive) animals. I feel that TR2013 needed less human murder for a while, maybe some more wolves or other thigns for Lara to engage with for a while.

    Returning to the previous discussion, I definitely don't agree that TR2013 is torture porn at all, in the context of the full game, but they DO a lot of terrible shit to Lara. In many ways that's because I feel TR2013 was being more gritty than the likes of Uncharted is - which has a lighter action/adventure tone than TR pulled. The torture porn stuff really came from the initial videos and such, which really did emphasize Lara being brutalized in a variety of ways (the opening of the game in particular was shown off in trailers a lot).

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    House of the Dying Son plot spoiler
    the player character is the emperor's Dragon and you switch control of fighters as the Dragon jumps from body to body, each pilot inheriting the Dragon's skills during the possession.

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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    Also people need to look at how the people whose opinion of TR2013 as "Torture porn" generally didn't hold that opinion after the game came out. The marketing and some of the stuff people said was incredibly dumb about Tomb Raider. Like there was a guy dropping to Kotaku that they were going to have a "Rape scene" and all sorts of shit, which naturally Kotaku ran with like a bear with a fresh salmon (but I digress). Lots of people were very worried about TR going into the game, but the actual game proved every single worry completely and utterly wrong.

    And I think the death scenes are among the best in video games, with only some of the incredibly horrifying ways Isaac can be dispatched in Dead Space coming close.

    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    Pixelated PixiePixelated Pixie They/Them Registered User regular
    I made it a mission to intentionally fail every QTE in TR2013 once just so I could screencap the resulting gruesomeness and collect them all.

    But yeah, I'm kind of twisted, too.

    >.>

    ~~ Pixie on Steam ~~
    ironzerg wrote: »
    Chipmunks are like nature's nipple clamps, I guess?
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited September 2016
    Aegeri wrote: »
    And I think the death scenes are among the best in video games, with only some of the incredibly horrifying ways Isaac can be dispatched in Dead Space coming close.

    Tomb Raider is not a gorey horror game with a huge emphasis on dismemberment as a game mechanic.

    So uh, saying they're comparable isn't really a laudable point for me. Because Tomb Raider isn't that kind of game, outside of those death scenes.

    EDIT: To be clear, I'm not against violence in games. I'm also not against violence in the QTEs of Tomb Raider "just because" she's female! It's the sheer gruesomeness of them that's out of place with the rest of the game, tonally.

    DarkPrimus on
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    ScratchyScratchy Registered User regular
    See I liked how they put Lara in such bad situations straight from the get go. I knew what I was in for and I knew stuff would be bad if I failed. I had prior knowledge of the series and I knew that sometimes she whipped out dual pistols and shot folks and then they stabbed themselves and then they turn into a dragon.... Miss a ledge and that bone snap still haunts me.

    My thoughts are that none of it was gratuitous for the sake of just doing it. It's made to be a game where a mistake will lead to something awful. 9/10 folks avoid half of those crazy deaths up on youtube just by playing the game like a regular person not seeking that stuff out. Yall are making it out to sound like Lara Croft Tomb Raider is the next Manhunt after she takes a break in a hostel in the Himalayas.

    steam_sig.png
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    RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    To be fair to kotaku, dudes were using some really creepy language to build her reboot up.

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    ScratchyScratchy Registered User regular
    I made it a mission to intentionally fail every QTE in TR2013 once just so I could screencap the resulting gruesomeness and collect them all.

    But yeah, I'm kind of twisted, too.

    >.>
    Scratchy wrote: »
    9/10 folks avoid half of those crazy deaths up on youtube just by playing the game like a regular person not seeking that stuff out.

    And the 1/10th is cool with it too.

    steam_sig.png
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    ScratchyScratchy Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Aegeri wrote: »
    And I think the death scenes are among the best in video games, with only some of the incredibly horrifying ways Isaac can be dispatched in Dead Space coming close.

    Tomb Raider is not a gorey horror game with a huge emphasis on dismemberment as a game mechanic.

    So uh, saying they're comparable isn't really a laudable point for me. Because Tomb Raider isn't that kind of game, outside of those death scenes.

    EDIT: To be clear, I'm not against violence in games. I'm also not against violence in the QTEs of Tomb Raider "just because" she's female! It's the sheer gruesomeness of them that's out of place with the rest of the game, tonally.

    Dead Space where you wander through an infected nursery, to Tomb Raider's, you limp a bit.

    I'm glad you say that. Tomb Raider has always been unforgiving. You miss grabbing a ledge and snap! I think it got the tone right on.

    steam_sig.png
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    AegeriAegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
    edited September 2016
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    EDIT: To be clear, I'm not against violence in games. I'm also not against violence in the QTEs of Tomb Raider "just because" she's female! It's the sheer gruesomeness of them that's out of place with the rest of the game, tonally.

    I do not agree with this at all. There aren't any deaths in Tomb Raider that I can think of that aren't fitting with the games tone and theme, which is extreme survival in a hostile environment. Narrative wise, yeah, Tomb Raider has tons of issues with its portrayal of violence. The death scenes for Lara are not a tonal problem in that game, because the worst deaths - most notably the horrific river/tree impalements - are both justified by the tone (which is struck within the first 5 minutes as being pretty brutal) and situation.

    The reason Dead Space outdoes it, is because Dead Space just goes that extra mile to make everything as horrifically cruel as possible.

    For those who haven't played Tomb Raider but want to know where it goes tone wise:
    You start off hung upside down in basically a human meat locker. You then get impaled, in the opening minutes of the game, by a rebar that Lara then pulls out manually. Then you can get stuck in a trap and potentially mauled by wolves (and being mauled by wolves is not fun). Later on in the game, demons turn up and you need to hide from them by going into a river of blood from all the people they've been murdering. Did I mention there are more than a few indications of human cannibalism going on with this game as well?

    Aegeri on
    The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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    ScratchyScratchy Registered User regular
    Tomb Raider is pretty fucked up.
    With their portrayal of wolves.

    steam_sig.png
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I complain about the gruesomeness of the QTEs but I thought it was overall an excellent game with some terrible pre-release PR.

This discussion has been closed.