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USA Presidential Election 2016: The Kids Are All White

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  • DouglasDangerDouglasDanger PennsylvaniaRegistered User regular
    Goddamnit can't I even just watch football without seeing that stupid fucking NRA commercial, jesus

    Yeah, this sort of alarmist bullshit isn't true at all. The Clintons never went after handguns, that I am aware. Bills assualt weapons ban from the 90s had nothing to do with handguns.

    I mean, if you are going to go after guns, it would make sense, in my opinion, to go after handguns, becuase they are easier to conceal and are probably involved on more crimes than long guns.

    There's a huge group of people that honestly believe the government is going to confiscate guns. And that's ridiculous. There might be buy backs and waiting periods and stuff, but no one is going to show up and confiscate your guns.

  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    Yeah I think the black plastic rifle kicking around in the patrol car is just creepy and militarising, like cops going around dressed for Fallujah and what have you

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  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Gundi wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    Part of the reason why I think we shouldn't arm officers by default. I value the life of the average person over the life of a police officer.

    Like I know where you're coming from but you have to arm officers so long as you have such a rampant unrestricted gun distribution throughout the US, you have to have armed police officers.

    I'm weighing the lives of unarmed civilians versus armed and irresponsible officers

    I know exactly what I'm saying

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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Police are average citizens, as well as police. Saying their lives should be weighed as less important is actually pretty disgusting! You should probably be ashamed to have said something like that.

  • PwnanObrienPwnanObrien He's right, life sucks. Registered User regular
    Mike Pence Tells Wrongfully Convicted Man He Won’t Act On Pardon Request
    After serving 10 years of a 40 year prison sentence for an Indiana armed robbery and attempted murder, Keith Cooper was freed when eyewitnesses recanted their testimony against him, new DNA evidence showed he wasn’t at the scene of the crime, and a jailhouse informant admitted that he lied to investigators.

    Five years later, Cooper filed a pardon petition that, if it were granted, would make him the first person in the state’s history granted clemency based on a finding of innocence. When his request was presented to the parole board, they found unanimously that he should be pardoned and have the two serious felony charges wiped from his record.

    Now, after waiting for more than two years for Governor Mike Pence to act on the board’s decision, Cooper has learned that the GOP vice presidential candidate won’t — unless Cooper can prove to the governor’s administration that all other judicial remedies have been exhausted.

    Fuck Mike Pence. It's going to be awesome watching him get wrecked in the debate.

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  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    I'm glad SNL is apparently on point for their Trump material but it will always ring hollow to me after having him host not too long ago

    sure

    but I think it probably pissed off most of its writers and performers as much as it did the rest of us, so

  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    Assigning individual lives value is pretty grotesque and leads to All Bad Things.

  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    Police are average citizens, as well as police. Saying their lives should be weighed as less important is actually pretty disgusting! You should probably be ashamed to have said something like that.

    Saying an oppressive voluntary organization that's proven itself untrustworthy is less important than the people they unjustly kill is not something I'm ashamed of. You basically made a Blue Lives Matter post.

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    I have been ranked and found wanting.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    If you think it's ok to say "x group has lives that are less valuable than y group", well, good fucking luck with that. You're absolutely 100% shithouse wrong, but I'm sure as shit not going to spend my Sunday trying to persuade you of that fact.

  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Sorry you feel that way. To be honest, you're better off focusing your critiques on powerful organizations than people affected by them anyways.

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  • Bluedude152Bluedude152 Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    Your saying police should be totally fine with just being gunned down

    Dude pulls a gun on you? Sorry shit out of luck

    Bluedude152 on
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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Dubh wrote: »
    Sorry you feel that way. To be honest, you're better off focusing your critiques on powerful organizations than people affected by them anyways.

    Thank you for this storied wisdom. I will be sure to take it into account.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Frankly I blame police unions.

  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    Police unions are terrible

  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    You seem so eager to share your wisdom with marginalized groups on how they should operate. Thought maybe I should pay it forward.

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  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    sigh...

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    The 21 foot rule is bullshit anyway because a determined attacker wouldn't bleed out in the time an officer could draw and shoot anyway.

    and that is the primary loss of function, unless the spine or heart are compromised.

    What you have to do is dig a grave for their dog between you and them...

    I don't get your reference.

    That's a deep cut Justified (tv show) reference. Great show if you haven't seen it.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    On that Mike Pence thing, he's the governor of my state, so I can confirm that he's a huge stupid idiot asshole, but if you actually read the article about him not pardoning that guy, you'll find that this is not actually a great example of him being an asshole.

    The guy hasn't gone through the normal channels to request a pardon, and his case at this point shouldn't be pardoned by Pence. He needs to prove that he's gone through all the standard channels of getting the pardon first, which he hasn't done. It's just really easy to shit on Pence and go "He's not pardoning this innocent guy!" but this one is just another example of trying to drive outrage.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    On that Mike Pence thing, he's the governor of my state, so I can confirm that he's a huge stupid idiot asshole, but if you actually read the article about him not pardoning that guy, you'll find that this is not actually a great example of him being an asshole.

    The guy hasn't gone through the normal channels to request a pardon, and his case at this point shouldn't be pardoned by Pence. He needs to prove that he's gone through all the standard channels of getting the pardon first, which he hasn't done. It's just really easy to shit on Pence and go "He's not pardoning this innocent guy!" but this one is just another example of trying to drive outrage.

    That's got to cost what, tens of thousands of dollars though?

  • Mr. ButtonsMr. Buttons Registered User regular
    It just seems like it should be one of those automatically done things.... have you been released from prison after it was discovered that you were wrongfully convicted of a crime or two? Maybe those inaccurate convictions should just be taken off your record at the same time

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited October 2016
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    On that Mike Pence thing, he's the governor of my state, so I can confirm that he's a huge stupid idiot asshole, but if you actually read the article about him not pardoning that guy, you'll find that this is not actually a great example of him being an asshole.

    The guy hasn't gone through the normal channels to request a pardon, and his case at this point shouldn't be pardoned by Pence. He needs to prove that he's gone through all the standard channels of getting the pardon first, which he hasn't done. It's just really easy to shit on Pence and go "He's not pardoning this innocent guy!" but this one is just another example of trying to drive outrage.

    Not pardoning an innocent guy sounds like an asshole thing to do, tbh

    Hacksaw on
  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    Your saying police should be totally fine with just being gunned down

    Dude pulls a gun on you? Sorry shit out of luck

    I mean, if the "dude" is wearing a uni, you already are...

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  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    edited October 2016
    Plus, like, cops aren't just randomly being gunned down. This isn't people with guns walking up to cops and getting ready to open fire and thank god that officer had his gun.

    It is 100% the opposite. The police are arming up, going into these situations, and gunning people down.

    That needs to change.

    It needs to stop.

    I don't think police officers should have the same right to self defense as an average citizen.

    Because an average citizen doesn't have any right to self defense against a cop.

    Tox on
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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    No governor has ever granted a pardon based on innocence in Indiana's history, and there's a reason. I hate Pence, but he's just not wrong about this one. The normal channels that pardons go through have never failed before, so why bypass them now? A governor's pardon is meant to be a last resort. This guy has been out of prison for what, 5 years? This is not a "guy is about to go to the chair and we found out he's innocent and we need a governor's pardon to save his life" situation. This is a "guy needs the felony removed from his record with a pardon" situation, and he absolutely deserves it. But he'll get it through the legal process that's set up, unless he can prove that he's used those channels and failed.

    I mean, if Pence was a smarter politician, maybe he pardons the guy and uses it as political ammo to help him and Trump. But his "go through the normal channels, I won't do the pardon out of respect for the judicial process" statement is actually him following the processes he's supposed to.

    Joshmvii on
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Also, @Bobkins Flymo the OP of this says the town hall debate is Friday Oct 9, should say Sunday. No big deal, but just figured I'd mention it.

  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    No governor has ever granted a pardon based on innocence in Indiana's history, and there's a reason. I hate Pence, but he's just not wrong about this one. The normal channels that pardons go through have never failed before, so why bypass them now? A governor's pardon is meant to be a last resort. This guy has been out of prison for what, 5 years? This is not a "guy is about to go to the chair and we found out he's innocent and we need a governor's pardon to save his life" situation. This is a "guy needs the felony removed from his record with a pardon" situation, and he absolutely deserves it. But he'll get it through the legal process that's set up, unless he can prove that he's used those channels and failed.

    I don't think that addresses the "costs tens of thousands of dollars issue". Also what's the reason? I'm genuinely curious.

  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    If you think it's ok to say "x group has lives that are less valuable than y group", well, good fucking luck with that. You're absolutely 100% shithouse wrong, but I'm sure as shit not going to spend my Sunday trying to persuade you of that fact.
    We, as a society, are already saying that now. We are saying that the lives of random people on the street are less valuable than police officers. Because if some factor--like, oh, say, the current strategies for equipping, training, and deploying law enforcement officers--results in innocent people being killed in the street for no good reason, most of us shrug our shoulders and do nothing. But any idea which could ever even hypothetically endanger a police officer--such as limiting how handguns are issued or prioritizing attempts at de-escalation over neutralizing low-probability threats to an officer--seems to be instantly vetoed regardless of context.

    Even ignoring the reality of what's happening right now, I must confess that it has never struck me as crazy or callous to say that all things being equal, the tragic death of a police officer--who made an active choice to accept certain risks in the name of defending the public good--ought to be at least slightly preferable over the death of a random passer-by, who made no such choice. And yet the opposite is considered true. Unjustified killings on the street is an acceptable cost of protecting police officers, but even a marginal increase in the probability of a police officer dying is almost never seen as an acceptable cost for the safety of the public. Why even have police officers, then?

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  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    Blue lives aren't less valuable, but they are more expendable.

    Because police fucking volunteer to be police. They literally have to sign up.

    Same with firefighters, military, and the like. Certain jobs have a baked in risk of life and limb. You sign up for that job understanding that risk, and willing to make that sacrifice.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    It doesn't cost anything to file a petition for pardon in Indiana. This one is a complicated case, because a public defender basically said that because the guy accepted a lesser sentence and withdrew his post-conviction petition for relief that now he's not being able to get the pardon, and that's why they're asking Pence. And Pence is saying that his AG believes that he still needs to go through the county court for relief before he's exhausted all the "not the governor" options.

    I personally think Pence is a huge asshole, and it would look better for him to basically everyone on the planet if he just pardoned the guy, but I was just pointing out that it's not as simple as some people, especially the ones on reddit who just read the buzzfeed headling(not even the article) were making it out to be.

  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    Tox wrote: »
    Blue lives aren't less valuable, but they are more expendable.

    This is also terrible. Civil servants who volunteer to do extremely dangerous things should not be told that they should expect to be killed because of their chosen profession, which in an ideal world is noble and good.

    Painting with broad brushes is easy, it's how you say that all black people are criminals and all gay people have aids and all transgender people have a mental disorder. Organized law enforcement has serious systemic problems but saying that police officers' lives are less valuable than other people, especially when The Police are an unquestionable net positive for society, is ignorant and inhuman.

    Peen on
  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    It may not be "just that simple" but the complex answer doesn't make Pence seem like any less of an asshole, OR like something that would trifle him especially much.

  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    Peen wrote: »
    Tox wrote: »
    Blue lives aren't less valuable, but they are more expendable.

    This is also terrible. Civil servants who volunteer to do extremely dangerous things should not be told that they should expect to be killed because of their chosen profession, which in an ideal world is noble and good.

    Painting with broad brushes is easy, it's how you say that all black people are criminals and all gay people have aids and all transgender people have a mental disorder. Organized law enforcement has serious systemic problems but saying that police officers' lives are less valuable than other people, especially when The Police are an unquestionable net positive for society, is ignorant and inhuman.

    They're not less valuable.

    They're more expendable.

    Because they volunteer to be.

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  • PeenPeen Registered User regular
    We're probably arguing past each other at this point but they absolutely did not volunteer to be expendable. They volunteered to put themselves in harm's way for the good of society and should expect to be trained and equipped to do that effectively and to at least receive basic civility from the people they are helping.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    It really needs to sink in that the increasing need to escalate situations by police just harms them as well as their victims. And unfortunately for the victims, the police, as the ones with the power, are the only ones who are able to make this shift.

  • Mr. ButtonsMr. Buttons Registered User regular
    I don't think expendable is the word you're looking to use

  • ChincymcchillaChincymcchilla Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Tube wrote: »
    Police are average citizens, as well as police. Saying their lives should be weighed as less important is actually pretty disgusting! You should probably be ashamed to have said something like that.

    Saying an oppressive voluntary organization that's proven itself untrustworthy is less important than the people they unjustly kill is not something I'm ashamed of. You basically made a Blue Lives Matter post.

    Saying cops do not deserve to be killed is not, at all, equivalent to Blue Lives Matter white supremacy laden bullshit

    "These people are not worthless because of their profession" is not a hateful statement

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  • ToxTox I kill threads they/themRegistered User regular
    In any given interaction between law enforcement and civilian, if a death must occur*, I choose the officer before the civilian. Every time.

    *That's a huge if though, one that actually does need to be fixed.

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  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    edited October 2016
    Dead Legend was warned for this.
    Tox wrote: »
    Plus, like, cops aren't just randomly being gunned down. This isn't people with guns walking up to cops and getting ready to open fire and thank god that officer had his gun.

    It is 100% the opposite. The police are arming up, going into these situations, and gunning people down.

    That needs to change.

    It needs to stop.

    I don't think police officers should have the same right to self defense as an average citizen.

    Because an average citizen doesn't have any right to self defense against a cop.

    goddamn, shut the fuck up.

    July was barely three fucking months ago and you had cops getting randomly shot in Dallas, Baton Rouge, Tennessee, and Missouri, and probably more because that was a cursory fucking Google

    Like, once again, I realize this place has the folks with their absolute extreme shit cunt opinions, but nobody deserves to die in the course of doing their job. Yes, their jobs could be done so much better, but we aren't there yet.

    Tube on
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This discussion has been closed.