For those who dont like their fist transmogs, I recommend getting the very basic brass knuckle looking fist weapons and playing with the weapon enchant transmogs. For whatever reason the enchants are HUGE and make you look like you got some kind of DBZ/Naruto thing going on with huge energy balls for fists. Some enchants show up more than others but most of them actually look pretty good. The enchants will completely overshadow that you have a small strip of metal on your hands.
Oh, man, attempted Nelth's Lair +6 with Bolstering. That was rough as hell. Definitely didn't get the timer on that one.
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0
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Decided to try to give back a bit by making a plain mythic group with no ilvl requirement - put "newbies welcome" in the title. First app, 842 healer. Took them.
Then I got about 20+ DPS apps, all 855 or higher.
I mean, I'd absolutely love to take lower ilvl people, but they don't seem to actually be applying to groups.
Decided to try to give back a bit by making a plain mythic group with no ilvl requirement - put "newbies welcome" in the title. First app, 842 healer. Took them.
Then I got about 20+ DPS apps, all 855 or higher.
I mean, I'd absolutely love to take lower ilvl people, but they don't seem to actually be applying to groups.
I'll try the same experiment tomorrow. What instance did you use?
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
ilvl is just a terrible metric to go by right now with how the secondary stats are setup. Combined with class balance, there are people in 830 gear who can outdps people in 860 gear, and skill gaps just mess with the numbers even more. Every time I join or invite people to a group it is just so random as to how effective people will be. I think adding a timer to the mythic+ make the problem even worse though. I'll take anyone on a regular mythic because we'll eventually finish it, but with mythic+ if my key is on the line, we're bringing 870+ hunters and mages to destroy whatever we're doing. I'm certainly guilty of some of the "gotta go fast" mentality, but Blizzard basically implemented and support that ideology, but didn't support every class/spec in that mission, which causes a lot of problems. Like why take a DK dps when a DH/monk has an instant aoe stun? Why take an elemental shaman when mages and hunters exist?
As much as I really like mythic+, I think the timer creates a terrible playing environment that really hurts people not playing the current FOTM. Also, the lfg tool is like 90% either "lf carry" or "lf your key", which might as well be saying "lf mages and hunters" or "we are mages and hunters". I think some other metrics to determine gear would be more interesting, like % mechanics damage avoided, or X mobs killed. Incentivizing better play over faster play would probably be better for the community, and would make people play better, because the community would kick people who stand in fire if their gear is on the line.
For those who dont like their fist transmogs, I recommend getting the very basic brass knuckle looking fist weapons and playing with the weapon enchant transmogs. For whatever reason the enchants are HUGE and make you look like you got some kind of DBZ/Naruto thing going on with huge energy balls for fists. Some enchants show up more than others but most of them actually look pretty good. The enchants will completely overshadow that you have a small strip of metal on your hands.
For real, it looks tight. I need to get Winter's Grasp. Is that during Christmas only?
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
ilvl is just a terrible metric to go by right now with how the secondary stats are setup. Combined with class balance, there are people in 830 gear who can outdps people in 860 gear, and skill gaps just mess with the numbers even more. Every time I join or invite people to a group it is just so random as to how effective people will be. I think adding a timer to the mythic+ make the problem even worse though. I'll take anyone on a regular mythic because we'll eventually finish it, but with mythic+ if my key is on the line, we're bringing 870+ hunters and mages to destroy whatever we're doing. I'm certainly guilty of some of the "gotta go fast" mentality, but Blizzard basically implemented and support that ideology, but didn't support every class/spec in that mission, which causes a lot of problems. Like why take a DK dps when a DH/monk has an instant aoe stun? Why take an elemental shaman when mages and hunters exist?
As much as I really like mythic+, I think the timer creates a terrible playing environment that really hurts people not playing the current FOTM. Also, the lfg tool is like 90% either "lf carry" or "lf your key", which might as well be saying "lf mages and hunters" or "we are mages and hunters". I think some other metrics to determine gear would be more interesting, like % mechanics damage avoided, or X mobs killed. Incentivizing better play over faster play would probably be better for the community, and would make people play better, because the community would kick people who stand in fire if their gear is on the line.
This is more or less my feelings on it. The timer turns Mythic+ from an increasingly harder dungeon to an increasingly faster dungeon. Speed quickly becomes the most important thing, and I hate it. The +10 groups who don't care about the timer and are only there to get their weekly chest to the cap sound much more fun than the +5-9 groups who only care about getting it done as fast as humanly possible, despite being a fuck load harder.
As soon as they announced the timer I was hesitant to like it, but everyone assured me that the timer was plenty long enough that the runs weren't about speed or anything. They definitely are.
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
people overvalue the double and triple chests. Since the AP change, the only thing doubling up your chests does is saves you time if you're starting on a low keystone. Otherwise you're better off getting the extra AP from doing the difficulties one by one instead of skipping.
people overvalue the double and triple chests. Since the AP change, the only thing doubling up your chests does is saves you time if you're starting on a low keystone. Otherwise you're better off getting the extra AP from doing the difficulties one by one instead of skipping.
Yes and no. There's multiple factors in play.
By hitting the timer and no more, yes, you maximize AP gain per keystone. That makes the most sense if it's your guild mate or friend's keystone, and especially if it's your keystone.
However, from the perspective of people pugging the instance it's a less productive strategy. Since you're using a stranger's keystone, the goal is typically to maximize the rewards from that particular keystone. If I do a Mythic+ with someone, I'm not thinking "maximize AP gain from keystone," I'm thinking "maximize loot from this run." I'll get my AP in the next stranger's keystone, and the one after that, and the one after that, etc. Also, people who play for a limited amount of time each week might prefer doing say, three +2 runs to doing three +2/+3/+4 runs.
Shadowhope on
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited October 2016
meh. I don't think it's worth running anything below +5 or +6 if you're ilvl 855 or higher. The base ilvl is still so low at that point that you're basically counting on Titanforging to make the run worthwhile.
And once you're 865+ it's basically worthless to run anything except +10.
meh. I don't think it's worth running anything below +5 or +6 if you're ilvl 855 or higher. The base ilvl is still so low at that point that you're basically counting on Titanforging to make the run worthwhile.
And once you're 865+ it's basically worthless to run anything except +10.
But not everyone is 855 or higher. And not everyone 855 or higher is good enough to carry a group through +5/+6.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
meh. I don't think it's worth running anything below +5 or +6 if you're ilvl 855 or higher. The base ilvl is still so low at that point that you're basically counting on Titanforging to make the run worthwhile.
And once you're 865+ it's basically worthless to run anything except +10.
But not everyone is 855 or higher. And not everyone 855 or higher is good enough to carry a group through +5/+6.
correct, but that's my point. If you're 840 and running +2s, your goal is completion, not triple chest. And if you're 855, your goal is completion of 6+, not triple chesting 2s and 3s.
Basically, for most people, if you're realistically capable of triple chesting, the keystone level you're running is far too low for your group.
Dhalphir on
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
meh. I don't think it's worth running anything below +5 or +6 if you're ilvl 855 or higher. The base ilvl is still so low at that point that you're basically counting on Titanforging to make the run worthwhile.
And once you're 865+ it's basically worthless to run anything except +10.
Man you need to tell me how when you are ilvl 855 every one of your pieces are perfectly even, because sign me the fuck up to that.
Also if that was the case you might want to run them anyway because man your relics are complete garbage if your weapon is 855.
meh. I don't think it's worth running anything below +5 or +6 if you're ilvl 855 or higher. The base ilvl is still so low at that point that you're basically counting on Titanforging to make the run worthwhile.
And once you're 865+ it's basically worthless to run anything except +10.
Man you need to tell me how when you are ilvl 855 every one of your pieces are perfectly even, because sign me the fuck up to that.
Also if that was the case you might want to run them anyway because man your relics are complete garbage if your weapon is 855.
I'm 857 overall. My best trinket for DPS on my tank is a Warforged Nightmare Bark ilevel 840. My best defensive trinket is a Warforged Commendation of Kael'thas ilevel 835.
I've cleared the Arcway eight times this week. You can bet that I'll keep taking +2 keystones and trying to get three chests from them. The +5/+6 clears are better loot, sure. But +2 is two or three times as many chances at a trinket.
Shadowhope on
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
0
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
I know that was really sarcastic, but the level of not having any point of view other than his own was high there, even for Dhal.
Saying if you are over 865 you should ONLY be running +10 is silly. +10 is hard for people period, regardless of ilvl. Also not all ilvls are created equal. I for a long time still had 840 and 835 pieces while I was well over 865. Some people have a legendary so their real ilvl is like 4 points lower. EVERYONE has like 4 ilvls lower average because your weapon is going to be considerably higher just having equal ilvl relics. So many things to consider.
Not only that, but trinkets and jewelry are still better at lower ilvls with the right drop. For many classes the dungeon trinkets are WAY better than raid ones, even so much that Blizz is addressing the raid trinkets. So what is the best way to get en mass all this stuff that you just want to get drop, and don't care about an extra 5 or 10 ilvl? Mass chests! Oh my.
I never ran +3 chest runs for AP. I ran it for the gear that might upgrade my off slots, and honestly I ended up getting more Titanforged shit way over that ilvl before I GOT those slots. Another way to get sweet titanforged loot is to get 6 pieces at a time over 2.
Because of the difficulty and unreliability involved in completing them, the only reason people are running super high keystones is for bragging rights. Unless you are just playing at that level with a consistent group, then you have a perfectly orgaznized run and grats on being the 1%, but you don't count. No one is group findering to spam +10 runs, unless you are just hunting for keystones.
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Maybe +10 is exaggerating, but I see way too many people spending all their time triple chesting 2s and 3s when they could be doing 8s. Yeah that one trinket that's weak for you would be great to upgrade, but in the meantime you're getting nothing for any other slot, and you're also not getting high levels for your weekly chest. The weekly chest is incredibly important.
I pick +6's where upgrades still drop for me. The jump from +6 to +7 is often such a nuisance that it drains my fun. +6 is 855, and I'm reaching the point where that is only an upgrade in a few slots though (Need 1 relic, legs and gloves without forging)
At that point I start to wonder if it's better to gamble on +2 3 chests for high roll titanforging or +8 or higher single chest runs that take twice as long. (In my experience +7s fail more often than not, and i've had outliers like raging/necrotic arcway taking 2h10mins)
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+1
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
You do one high run and a bunch of chest runs.
And no, you are not getting nothing for other slots. See my post. I have reached 867 doing mostly 3 chest runs and have found quite a few war/titan forged pieces doing it.
You seem to highly devalue time. Dhal, before posting you should try to take a step back and say to yourself "is this just me, or is this the average person". Because the average person is going to take a long time to complete higher levels, while by making 3 chest time they are obviously completing dungeons at a high pace and without as high a chance of failure. The average person is ok with the chance of upgrades, over focusing entirely on content they likely can't even complete. The average person isn't going to be able to find the quality of group to guarantee completion of the level of keystone they need to "guarantee" upgrades.
So, this isn't an awful thing, but a minor QoL change would be a way to set filters on the LFG tool for Mythic+ versus normal Mythic. Even better would be a way to search for specific or ranged + values.
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
+4
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
The finder does really need some hard settings, and not just the search. Though at least if you search for dungeon names, it does find them based on their hard selection and no just their description.
Maybe +10 is exaggerating, but I see way too many people spending all their time triple chesting 2s and 3s when they could be doing 8s. Yeah that one trinket that's weak for you would be great to upgrade, but in the meantime you're getting nothing for any other slot, and you're also not getting high levels for your weekly chest. The weekly chest is incredibly important.
My typical gear setup for tanking has an 840 trinket, an 845 trinket, an 850 ring, and an 850 neck, and an 840 holy artifact. All of my other pieces are at least 855. In order to get a non-Warforged sidegrade for anything other than those slots, I need to do +6 or better. In order to get a non-Warforged upgrade, I need to do +8 or better. The number of people who are pugging who are capable of doing a two or three chest run on a +2/+3 dungeon is significantly higher than those who are pugging and capable of doing +8.
So: I keep running Arcway +2, because Cleansing Isotope, Chrono Shard, and Coadulated Nightwell Residue are straight upgrades, while Ring of Looming Menace is pretty much perfectly itemized for me and would probably replace my 850 ring. That's before proccing Warforged/Titanforged. And since I get two or three chests from Arcway +2, I'm getting more chances at the items. Sure, I could do a higher level dungeon and get a chance at one of two items, or I could do twice as many dungeons and get a chance at about ten items. And those items may Warforge/Titanforge. And more chests is more chances at a Legendary.
So I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Ooh, if you search the LFG tool with just a "+", that does a pretty good job of filtering out the non M+s.
"He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it." -Moby Dick
My ideal keystone group would be vengeance DH/ww/ww/ww/shaman
Not sure if you play a healer in addition to all the tanks, but that would be a nightmare to heal. The melee would all get wrecked by cleave type stuff, while the healer would just eat ranged mechanics over and over. It's night and day healing a melee heavy group vs a ranged group. I have to mentally prepare myself when i join a group and just see 4 melee, because even if theyre good, theyre going to require a lot more healing.
As a holy paladin, I find the opposite to be true. Full ranged groups are a nightmare to heal. They're too far from melee range to get my mastery bonus, and they're too spread out for Light of Dawn. I could go stand with them to fix the mastery issue, but then I don't have as much healing efficiency since I'm not Crusader Striking the enemies, and I'm not always in range to stun casters or enragers.
I would much prefer a full melee group.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
My ideal keystone group would be vengeance DH/ww/ww/ww/shaman
Not sure if you play a healer in addition to all the tanks, but that would be a nightmare to heal. The melee would all get wrecked by cleave type stuff, while the healer would just eat ranged mechanics over and over. It's night and day healing a melee heavy group vs a ranged group. I have to mentally prepare myself when i join a group and just see 4 melee, because even if theyre good, theyre going to require a lot more healing.
He doesn't, and never seems to really understand their role either.
As a healer, I would also have issues healing a DH in that situation. Adding in a bunch of melee that honestly can't take all that good of care of themselves (not every monk has the cape legendary) and you just have a group that has to stop to drink every pull! That is far from efficient.
Mages do better burst and have better aoe than WW, and are ranged. That is the appeal, but I think stacking mages is dumb too.
Not only that, but most top runs are likely going to use a healer that can do solid damage. Which would be disc (which seems to be REALLY popular in the high end, kind of wish I played that) or paladin.
But everyone will have their own opinion because outside of some of the worse dps specs, most groups are viable. It comes more down to execution than specs involved.
Making one of the monks a mist weaver and having the sham go elemental would be a pretty good comp though. You'd have astounding trash dps, which is where most of the time saving comes from
Javen on
+1
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Elemental is one of those fairly suffering specs though. They do have good aoe i guess.
The problem with elemental though, is that their aoe isn't any better than the other good specs, and their single target damage sucks if the fight goes longer than like 30s. Having the lust would be nice, but again, hunters and mages have their versions of lust. I usually have a few stacks of drums in my bags too as a MW in case I'm in a run without one for some reason.
My ideal keystone group would be vengeance DH/ww/ww/ww/shaman
Not sure if you play a healer in addition to all the tanks, but that would be a nightmare to heal. The melee would all get wrecked by cleave type stuff, while the healer would just eat ranged mechanics over and over. It's night and day healing a melee heavy group vs a ranged group. I have to mentally prepare myself when i join a group and just see 4 melee, because even if theyre good, theyre going to require a lot more healing.
He doesn't, and never seems to really understand their role either.
As a healer, I would also have issues healing a DH in that situation. .
In what way? Vengeance is one of the better Keystone tanks.
Along the same lines, if your melee are getting wrecked by cleave then either your melee or your tank or both are doing something wrong. There are very few 360 cleaves in dungeons.
And I know not every group plays perfectly, but the question was optimal classes.
Windwalkers have an AOE stun with a long duration. Their trash DPS is tied for best with havoc. Their boss DPS is probably less than a mage, but not by much, and boss DPS isn't very important in Keystone runs compared to trash. And they can top themselves off between pulls so the healer doesn't have to, saving a big chunk of mana.
And they have a ton of mobility.
And I absolutely understand healer POV, which is why I said shaman, because a group where everyone is grouped up is much easier for a shaman to heal than one that is spread out.
Dhalphir on
+2
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Trying to tank my way to 100 on my Monk. 95 so far. I can see why I never see any Brewmaster tanks at 110.
I find brewmasters quite enjoyable to play, what specific issues are you experiencing?
I feel like my mitigation is really bad and I don't really have an "Oh shit button" if I start to die. It feels like I need to put way more faith in my healer than in my ability to know when I need to pop a cooldown.
The AoE tanking does not feel as strong as my Warrior or Druid as well.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My ideal keystone group would be vengeance DH/ww/ww/ww/shaman
Not sure if you play a healer in addition to all the tanks, but that would be a nightmare to heal. The melee would all get wrecked by cleave type stuff, while the healer would just eat ranged mechanics over and over. It's night and day healing a melee heavy group vs a ranged group. I have to mentally prepare myself when i join a group and just see 4 melee, because even if theyre good, theyre going to require a lot more healing.
He doesn't, and never seems to really understand their role either.
As a healer, I would also have issues healing a DH in that situation. .
In what way? Vengeance is one of the better Keystone tanks.
Along the same lines, if your melee are getting wrecked by cleave then either your melee or your tank or both are doing something wrong. There are very few 360 cleaves in dungeons.
And I know not every group plays perfectly, but the question was optimal classes.
Windwalkers have an AOE stun with a long duration. Their trash DPS is tied for best with havoc. Their boss DPS is probably less than a mage, but not by much, and boss DPS isn't very important in Keystone runs compared to trash. And they can top themselves off between pulls so the healer doesn't have to, saving a big chunk of mana.
And they have a ton of mobility.
And I absolutely understand healer POV, which is why I said shaman, because a group where everyone is grouped up is much easier for a shaman to heal than one that is spread out.
I'd say the biggest thing is who specifically you are playing with. If you are playing with IRL friends or people you've been playing with for a while that you are comfortable with and know they aren't stupid, go ahead and roll with a full melee group. But if you are pugging, which the majority of people do, going with the safer ranged dps is just easier for everyone. In an environment where almost everything is unknown, safer picks are more optimal, which makes the hunters and mages better picks than rolling the dice with a DH or WW for melee dps. That risk is also like double when you're playing horde and are deciding to bring someone from quel'thalas, ragnaros, or azralon. I'd rather chance a d/c with someone from frostmourne who is capable of playing their class than some DH with a variation of illidan in their name from azralon.
I'd say guild groups vs pug groups changes whether or not class matters very dramatically. I'll bring a guildy playing a sub optimal class because we will be in some kind of voice chat, and there is some kind of vested interest in also getting them geared up and experienced in more content. In pugs its taking the path of least resistance 99% of the time.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Class only matters for the min maxing. As with basically every other aspect of balance, the skill of the player is almost always going to be a more deciding factor than what class you are bringing.
As I said, only a few of the outliers for REALLY badly performing specs in all aspects really would be a bad choice.
eh, melee are better than ranged in a lot of ways for m+; with the exception of sanguine and I guess skittish there's not a ton of reason to avoid them, and melee usually have more stuns/interrupts than ranged (also generally speaking they cleave better, although mages and hunters are exceptions to that on the ranged side.)
hold your head high soldier, it ain't over yet
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Class only matters for the min maxing. As with basically every other aspect of balance, the skill of the player is almost always going to be a more deciding factor than what class you are bringing.
As I said, only a few of the outliers for REALLY badly performing specs in all aspects really would be a bad choice.
The skill of a player isn't a factor you can use when pugging. You have no way to determine the skill of a player. You take the optimal classes and specs and high item level players because although they might be bad, suboptimal specs and low item level players have just as much chance of being bad and then on top of that they are suboptimal and undergeared.
Posts
I got into a group to tank a +2 Arcway. That went well, three chests.
Someone had a key for +4 Arcway. IIRC, we got two chests.
Someone had a key for +6 Arcway. Only one chest, but gosh darn it, we did it.
My Legendary wait continues.
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Then I got about 20+ DPS apps, all 855 or higher.
I mean, I'd absolutely love to take lower ilvl people, but they don't seem to actually be applying to groups.
I'll try the same experiment tomorrow. What instance did you use?
As much as I really like mythic+, I think the timer creates a terrible playing environment that really hurts people not playing the current FOTM. Also, the lfg tool is like 90% either "lf carry" or "lf your key", which might as well be saying "lf mages and hunters" or "we are mages and hunters". I think some other metrics to determine gear would be more interesting, like % mechanics damage avoided, or X mobs killed. Incentivizing better play over faster play would probably be better for the community, and would make people play better, because the community would kick people who stand in fire if their gear is on the line.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
My ideal keystone group would be vengeance DH/ww/ww/ww/shaman
For real, it looks tight. I need to get Winter's Grasp. Is that during Christmas only?
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
raid finder is locked while levelling between max brackets, but I doubt you'd actually get a raid group at any level besides the current max of 110.
This is more or less my feelings on it. The timer turns Mythic+ from an increasingly harder dungeon to an increasingly faster dungeon. Speed quickly becomes the most important thing, and I hate it. The +10 groups who don't care about the timer and are only there to get their weekly chest to the cap sound much more fun than the +5-9 groups who only care about getting it done as fast as humanly possible, despite being a fuck load harder.
As soon as they announced the timer I was hesitant to like it, but everyone assured me that the timer was plenty long enough that the runs weren't about speed or anything. They definitely are.
Yes and no. There's multiple factors in play.
By hitting the timer and no more, yes, you maximize AP gain per keystone. That makes the most sense if it's your guild mate or friend's keystone, and especially if it's your keystone.
However, from the perspective of people pugging the instance it's a less productive strategy. Since you're using a stranger's keystone, the goal is typically to maximize the rewards from that particular keystone. If I do a Mythic+ with someone, I'm not thinking "maximize AP gain from keystone," I'm thinking "maximize loot from this run." I'll get my AP in the next stranger's keystone, and the one after that, and the one after that, etc. Also, people who play for a limited amount of time each week might prefer doing say, three +2 runs to doing three +2/+3/+4 runs.
And once you're 865+ it's basically worthless to run anything except +10.
But not everyone is 855 or higher. And not everyone 855 or higher is good enough to carry a group through +5/+6.
correct, but that's my point. If you're 840 and running +2s, your goal is completion, not triple chest. And if you're 855, your goal is completion of 6+, not triple chesting 2s and 3s.
Basically, for most people, if you're realistically capable of triple chesting, the keystone level you're running is far too low for your group.
Man you need to tell me how when you are ilvl 855 every one of your pieces are perfectly even, because sign me the fuck up to that.
Also if that was the case you might want to run them anyway because man your relics are complete garbage if your weapon is 855.
I'm 857 overall. My best trinket for DPS on my tank is a Warforged Nightmare Bark ilevel 840. My best defensive trinket is a Warforged Commendation of Kael'thas ilevel 835.
I've cleared the Arcway eight times this week. You can bet that I'll keep taking +2 keystones and trying to get three chests from them. The +5/+6 clears are better loot, sure. But +2 is two or three times as many chances at a trinket.
Saying if you are over 865 you should ONLY be running +10 is silly. +10 is hard for people period, regardless of ilvl. Also not all ilvls are created equal. I for a long time still had 840 and 835 pieces while I was well over 865. Some people have a legendary so their real ilvl is like 4 points lower. EVERYONE has like 4 ilvls lower average because your weapon is going to be considerably higher just having equal ilvl relics. So many things to consider.
Not only that, but trinkets and jewelry are still better at lower ilvls with the right drop. For many classes the dungeon trinkets are WAY better than raid ones, even so much that Blizz is addressing the raid trinkets. So what is the best way to get en mass all this stuff that you just want to get drop, and don't care about an extra 5 or 10 ilvl? Mass chests! Oh my.
I never ran +3 chest runs for AP. I ran it for the gear that might upgrade my off slots, and honestly I ended up getting more Titanforged shit way over that ilvl before I GOT those slots. Another way to get sweet titanforged loot is to get 6 pieces at a time over 2.
Because of the difficulty and unreliability involved in completing them, the only reason people are running super high keystones is for bragging rights. Unless you are just playing at that level with a consistent group, then you have a perfectly orgaznized run and grats on being the 1%, but you don't count. No one is group findering to spam +10 runs, unless you are just hunting for keystones.
At that point I start to wonder if it's better to gamble on +2 3 chests for high roll titanforging or +8 or higher single chest runs that take twice as long. (In my experience +7s fail more often than not, and i've had outliers like raging/necrotic arcway taking 2h10mins)
And no, you are not getting nothing for other slots. See my post. I have reached 867 doing mostly 3 chest runs and have found quite a few war/titan forged pieces doing it.
You seem to highly devalue time. Dhal, before posting you should try to take a step back and say to yourself "is this just me, or is this the average person". Because the average person is going to take a long time to complete higher levels, while by making 3 chest time they are obviously completing dungeons at a high pace and without as high a chance of failure. The average person is ok with the chance of upgrades, over focusing entirely on content they likely can't even complete. The average person isn't going to be able to find the quality of group to guarantee completion of the level of keystone they need to "guarantee" upgrades.
My typical gear setup for tanking has an 840 trinket, an 845 trinket, an 850 ring, and an 850 neck, and an 840 holy artifact. All of my other pieces are at least 855. In order to get a non-Warforged sidegrade for anything other than those slots, I need to do +6 or better. In order to get a non-Warforged upgrade, I need to do +8 or better. The number of people who are pugging who are capable of doing a two or three chest run on a +2/+3 dungeon is significantly higher than those who are pugging and capable of doing +8.
So: I keep running Arcway +2, because Cleansing Isotope, Chrono Shard, and Coadulated Nightwell Residue are straight upgrades, while Ring of Looming Menace is pretty much perfectly itemized for me and would probably replace my 850 ring. That's before proccing Warforged/Titanforged. And since I get two or three chests from Arcway +2, I'm getting more chances at the items. Sure, I could do a higher level dungeon and get a chance at one of two items, or I could do twice as many dungeons and get a chance at about ten items. And those items may Warforge/Titanforge. And more chests is more chances at a Legendary.
So I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
Not sure if you play a healer in addition to all the tanks, but that would be a nightmare to heal. The melee would all get wrecked by cleave type stuff, while the healer would just eat ranged mechanics over and over. It's night and day healing a melee heavy group vs a ranged group. I have to mentally prepare myself when i join a group and just see 4 melee, because even if theyre good, theyre going to require a lot more healing.
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I would much prefer a full melee group.
He doesn't, and never seems to really understand their role either.
As a healer, I would also have issues healing a DH in that situation. Adding in a bunch of melee that honestly can't take all that good of care of themselves (not every monk has the cape legendary) and you just have a group that has to stop to drink every pull! That is far from efficient.
Mages do better burst and have better aoe than WW, and are ranged. That is the appeal, but I think stacking mages is dumb too.
Not only that, but most top runs are likely going to use a healer that can do solid damage. Which would be disc (which seems to be REALLY popular in the high end, kind of wish I played that) or paladin.
But everyone will have their own opinion because outside of some of the worse dps specs, most groups are viable. It comes more down to execution than specs involved.
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What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
In what way? Vengeance is one of the better Keystone tanks.
Along the same lines, if your melee are getting wrecked by cleave then either your melee or your tank or both are doing something wrong. There are very few 360 cleaves in dungeons.
And I know not every group plays perfectly, but the question was optimal classes.
Windwalkers have an AOE stun with a long duration. Their trash DPS is tied for best with havoc. Their boss DPS is probably less than a mage, but not by much, and boss DPS isn't very important in Keystone runs compared to trash. And they can top themselves off between pulls so the healer doesn't have to, saving a big chunk of mana.
And they have a ton of mobility.
And I absolutely understand healer POV, which is why I said shaman, because a group where everyone is grouped up is much easier for a shaman to heal than one that is spread out.
I find brewmasters quite enjoyable to play, what specific issues are you experiencing?
I feel like my mitigation is really bad and I don't really have an "Oh shit button" if I start to die. It feels like I need to put way more faith in my healer than in my ability to know when I need to pop a cooldown.
The AoE tanking does not feel as strong as my Warrior or Druid as well.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I'd say the biggest thing is who specifically you are playing with. If you are playing with IRL friends or people you've been playing with for a while that you are comfortable with and know they aren't stupid, go ahead and roll with a full melee group. But if you are pugging, which the majority of people do, going with the safer ranged dps is just easier for everyone. In an environment where almost everything is unknown, safer picks are more optimal, which makes the hunters and mages better picks than rolling the dice with a DH or WW for melee dps. That risk is also like double when you're playing horde and are deciding to bring someone from quel'thalas, ragnaros, or azralon. I'd rather chance a d/c with someone from frostmourne who is capable of playing their class than some DH with a variation of illidan in their name from azralon.
I'd say guild groups vs pug groups changes whether or not class matters very dramatically. I'll bring a guildy playing a sub optimal class because we will be in some kind of voice chat, and there is some kind of vested interest in also getting them geared up and experienced in more content. In pugs its taking the path of least resistance 99% of the time.
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As I said, only a few of the outliers for REALLY badly performing specs in all aspects really would be a bad choice.
that's why we call it the struggle, you're supposed to sweat
The skill of a player isn't a factor you can use when pugging. You have no way to determine the skill of a player. You take the optimal classes and specs and high item level players because although they might be bad, suboptimal specs and low item level players have just as much chance of being bad and then on top of that they are suboptimal and undergeared.